ROUNDERS Final Hand Breakdown - Old School VS New School Poker Analysis Episode 6
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- čas přidán 31. 05. 2021
- Welcome back to Episode 6 of the Old School VS New School Analysis series. This week we're looking at the Final hand from everyone's favorite poker movie and I share what I think Teddy KGB was holding.
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They never reveal Teddy's hand, but when he says "that ace could not have helped you" it is natural to assume at that point that he has pocket aces, which would also make sense from a movie standpoint considering that he busted Matt Damon in the beginning of the movie with pocket aces.
I thought it meant an ace wasn't in his range so it couldn't have helped him
Concur
I interpreted it differently. He said, "You're on a draw? Go away!" earlier in the hand, so Teddy had Mike trying to complete a straight. Neither the turn nor the river could have completed a straight, so that's why he said the ace could not have helped him, not because Teddy was holding bullets and it did help him. It's more likely Teddy flopped a set.
@@brandonbreuer6589 That is how I see it. It seems semi obvious that Matt has it the was he is playing passive and acting as if he hates those cards. Check river Teddy and Mike pushes for sure. Kind of silly compared to how we see poker in 2021.
@@brandonbreuer6589 Well, except that it's a movie so of course that's exactly what he's going to do. :-) And while at a certain point it's pointless to try to determine what happened in the part of a movie that wasn't shown, he DID indicate in the movie that he thought Mike was on a draw. Given that context, it makes sense that Teddy's comment about the ace was about Mike missing, not Teddy hitting the set. And in the movie universe (in addition to the dramatic effect at the climax point of the movie) his going all in can be explained as further rubbing it in. But we're all extrapolating too far if we're comparing what happens in a movie to what someone would do IRL.
"Let's say he's Hellmuth and he's a limper."
*Daniel's Throwing Some Serious Shade xD*
I have had an unnatural dislike for Hellmuth's style and an innate draw to Negreanu's, and it's so easy finding videos of Hellmuth tilting. Especially to Daniel's calmer playstyle.
"He beat me, straight up."
And THAT is why I can RESPECT Teddy KGB. It's hard to not make excuses, hard to admit that you simply weren't good enough... especially when you are the 'person of power'. And yet, Teddy had his outburst but remained true to the game, you play the hand you're dealt and accept the consequences.
Good man, Teddy. Good man.
He had to pay him because of the kind of club he was running, if word got around didn’t pay someone that out played him and used his muscle to just do what he wanted then people would stop coming to his club.
Plus it's fucking joke anyway. Teddy KGB was still break even from last time he.... stick it in him (humps the air)
@@irieite9666 i literally just rewatched the movie so actually, no. In the final scene, Matt Damon's character narrates that he "turned 10grand into just over 60", so he got back his 30 + 15 owed KGB, and an extra 10 (from the professor) and 6 to pay back the Chesterfield club.
KGB ended the night down an extra 16K.
@@darrenmcollins Careful, with your interpretation, you just revealed to the world that you’re an incel with masochistic tendencies.
Teddy saying, "Pay that man," was a sign of respect since he'd been calling him a kid the whole game
Mike had a tell - every time he made a good play or a good read, he called him "Teddy". KGB could have picked up on that after the turn and saved himself $24K with a check.
BS not enough hands or data for you to assume that sorry but bad analysis on your part Matt did not have a tell sry you are wrong try again!
One thing that was really important to hit KGB's ego was when Mike said 'Don't splash the pot' that really hit KGB psychologically. Making him think he is the bigboss in the club which made him even bigger of himself. Result : beting pot after pot. Great game Mike.
Matt Damon: "How do you like them apples??"
It is almost like a challenge - to splash his pot more, to prove he owns the place and doesn’t need to take orders from Damon’s character
ABSOLUTLY, thats one element that Daniel forgot to get into. it was in my opinion what made all that happen.
In real life, they both had 8-9, and KGB had to chop that messy pot.
Don't splash the pot!
I think they revealed he had pocket tens but I'm basing this on an old possibly false memory
Don't tcheeop di pot!!
Pay this man his myuneeh
@@dudechill7531 I wonder how someone would prounance your comment if they haven't seen this movie
If you pause at 6:29 when Teddy throws his cards and they fly past Mike's head, you can see he has pocket 10's
Here's a screen grab I did .
Yup you’re right. I did a video capture and slowed it down. Pocket 10s for sure.
Teddy was the dealer; he keeps his hole cards on the table the whole time. When he sees Mike’s hand, he throws the deck from his right hand, not his hole cards, and the 10s fly out
Daniel, this rules! Been a fan of yours for 20 years. So cool to hear the "extended version" analysis of a hand.
That was fun. Having seen that movie so many times, I really appreciate hearing a professional breakdown of that last scene, especially a good guess at Teddy’s hand.
That concept of betting middle and bottom set more often than top set because you want them to have top pair has helped me immensely.
You have always been one of my favorite players even going back 20 years (jeez, have I been watching poker that long!!?), always humble and just one helluva player overall. I'm not sure how I never knew that you had your own channel on here as well.
That was so entertaining! I love the dig on Phil Hellmuth limping 🤣... Phil is definitely in Daniels head after two heads up loses!
I thought of Phil especially after the blowup. That’s Phil all the way Brat.
Phil literally lives rent free in Daniel’s head
daniel you are a real one for letting the scene roll
Slow down CZcams to 0.25 speed and you can see flying TT at 6.29
yes they are TT
The two 10’s are flashed when he slams the full deck down, and we can assume they were part of the deck. This actually proves that he wouldn’t have been holding this, because it would have taken a miracle to have his hole cards flip up by having the deck slammed on top of them.
@@peterstrohbusch8515 Yeah, with where the deck landed, I don't think his whole cards were touched by anything at all. They weren't touched by the chips when he pushed them out of the way either. I think they are still sitting somewhere amongst the stuff at 6:52.
@@peterstrohbusch8515 Unless he throws the deck together with his hole cards and the cards remaining in front of him shortly after are just two random cards from the deck.
Great analysis Daniel. Yes, aces makes the most sense, as it makes the story come full circle - Teddy beats Mike with aces in the scene at the beginning where Mike gets broke with Ac9c. But also, remember the whole reason why he decided to take the shot at KGB's in the first place - his encounter with Johnny Chan in Atlantic City. The Johnny Chan connection is twofold here - in the scene where the girl comes from the club to try to collect the debt that Worm ran up on Mike's credit, Mike is watching the 1988 WSOP final hand between Eric Seidel and Chan where John flopped the nut straight and checked the turn and river inducing the river shove, which is pretty close to what happened in the final hand of the movie.
I’m gonna say he had Aces, just because that was the hand that he beat Mike with in the beginning of the movie. So it makes sense that he’d be confident with the hand the second time around
plus, he slowplayed the hand during that first scene as well, he only raised on the river, so it makes sense that he wouldnt raise preflop with aces since theres already a precedent for him not raising preflop with aces.
I have always thought KGB had aces again. It would make sense. It's the second nuts after 8-9 and I can only assume Teddy put Mike on top pair with a straight draw (10-8,10-9) but no matter what Teddy had his river bet makes no sense. Maybe Mike made top 2 pair on the river and an overbet and he could get a call but he should have value bet. As far as Hollywood goes though, pretty well done.
You can see the TT when he throws his cards
Love these videos!
Teddy puts Mike on a draw (85 or 45) because he double blocks top pair hands with his TT. On the river, Teddy isn’t concerned about Mike having AA, because that hand would never have been played so passively.
This movie was my first introduction to poker that had an element of skill as well as luck - before, I thought 5-card draw was all there was. It's really cool that you did a breakdown of it.
One thing to keep in mind for all of this....a few moments before this scene Mikey got KGB "on tilt". If you assume KGB isn't thinking completely rationally at this point it also extends the possibilities on what he is holding.
Yes. Not so much what he is holding, but his betting pattern.
Good point about tilt explaining some of his bad bets. Also, if he hadn't been tilting he might have recognized that Mike's table talk indicated very strong. For example, if Mike had a weak made hand or was chasing a draw he most likely would not have made the antagonizing "don't splash the pot" statement. Then when Mike claimed he was only calling "to respect himself" it probably meant he was calling for another reason.
It’s Hellmuth v. Persson all over again. 4-betting K4o lol.
Context is important here. The flow of the game up to this point. Teddy was trying to push him around and got GOT. LOL
"Pay dat man his money"
Such a great flick.
Big fan Daniel I have watched all your old stuff! Stay blessed brother happy for you and Amanda!!
Awesome instruction on this video for so many hands more than just the one shown. Thanks for the info.
Rounders was my favorite movie in college! Pay that man his money… Best line
Every time I log in to play online, Hollywood Poker seems to happen pretty often 😁
Thanks Daniel. Such a great read on what we want.
I love these vid breakdowns. Thanks Daniel.
This is so funny now but I watched Rounders like 9 times and then took a business trip to New Orleans. Harrah's had the only land-based casino in LA at the time. I went to play Hold'em and sat at a $3-$6 limit table. Was lucky enough to be just to the left of a maniac that made sure that every street was raised 4x lol. He was going through $100 bills every 2-3 hands. I won $900 and was "hooked" from there! Had no idea how little I actually knew about the game!
Great segment Daniel! Love your videos. Great effect too shooting the old school in B&W!
I preferred boomtoon up near Manhattan ave.
In your review I totally agree, movie review, KJB HAD to have AA there for the circular nature of their game. KGB won with AA in their first game. Keep up the entertaining videos! :)
actually Teddy KGB played set of 10s.
he exposed his pocket 10s by throwing cards at the table when he realized he lost
Hey Daniel, hope you're doing great! I watched this video a few years ago... But it was so damn good I think I'm going to watch it again!😊 Carry on, Yoda...
I just found your channel, it's great. So much great info, thanks a bunch!😊
He had a set of tens. If you watch the scene slowly, you see two tens fly up.
What time stamp!
@@SuperYtc1Its really hard but you can kind of see it at 6:29 for like 1 or 2 frames.... you won't catch it every time stop/go/stop go a bunch and then you'll see
I see it too! Teddy KGB had pocket 10's!!! This means when he overbets the river, essentially he's saying he believes Mike was on a draw the entire time, and that's why Teddy wasn't afraid of the rivered Ace. Nice catch! =D
He throws the deck of cards, with his two cards for his hand (presumably) still on the table in front of him. I don't think those cards we see flying up are his.
@@seguren yeah it seems discontinuous. Almost like he slammed the deck and it made those two cards fly. Or it was seperate takes when he picks up there deck and when the cards fly at McDermott. The deck is thrown in one take and those two cards fly off seperately. Whether they are supposed to be the whole cards or not is anyone's guess. But nuts vs second nuts makes a great story
If you didn’t see earlier in the film, he was studying the Chan/Seidel final hand from 88. Probably one of the best traps in wsop history.
Yep it’s Chan move
This is the movie that made me fall in love with hold'em poker. Thank you for the breakdown!
My favorite pro, Dan Negreanu. I still remember something you said in an interview involving a poker tip the interviewer asked for. It was enlightening, an insight on how you, Daniel, approach the game, and upped my game 10 fold. I wish you prosperity, my friend.
What did Daniel say?? I need to know. I NEED TO KNOW
Everything at the table conveys information...
or
Don't do anything stupid.
Best break down ever! I got into poker from this movie and moneymaker in the WSOP. Awesome 👍 thanks for the great vlogs
Mike had the button, heads-up. First to act, preflop. He raised, TKGB called.
BTW, this movie came out when I was becoming a "serious" limit hold'em player, and I was in law school, and my girlfriend low-key disapproved. I felt like I was seeing way more of my life than I wanted to. (Luckily I did not have "friends" like Worm.)
If Mikey had the button, how is he checking first on each post flop street? Something has to be wrong with that.
This video was a lot of fun and also excellent. Thanks Daniel.
Great Great break down video! Appreciate you Negreanu!
Teddy KGB Had Aces there, makes perfect sense ;)
Also redemption for Mike from the first scene when Teddy pulled aces full on him
Aces were the Only thing teddy could have had that would allow him to say that ace could not help you
You think he checked and flat called preflop with aces? What about flopping two pairs? Wouldn’t that make better sense? ‘The ace couldn’t have helped him’ because he was putting him on a draw.
@@ShwaComedy if that is the case then the ace could have helped him That is the only hand teddy could have had where a river ace could not help him.
@@ShwaComedy if he flipped two pair then that ace could easily have helped if he had top pair on the board and an ace kicker
“In the game of life, Women are the rake”
-Worm
I love Daniel Negreanu. I got into poker watching him play over the years because his charisma is unmatched at the table. Even when he has a bad run of cards, he's nothing but class and has only respect for other players at the table. That says a lot about his character and who he is as a person. If you are new to this channel or poker in general, Daniel is the type of guy who should be your ambassador to the game. He's also written several awesome books throughout the years that serve as a wonderful introduction into the world of high stakes poker. You can't go wrong following him and learning from him.
You will meet quite a few colorful characters in the fascinating world of Poker but Daniel is the gold standard from which all others are measured.
Love you Dave!
You are by far my favorite poker pro of all time. Haha I even have your poker set you had at Walmart. Just wanted to say from a fellow Canadian. Appreciate you as a person cheers 🍻 have a great holiday
Can you breakdown the poker hand from Hell or High Water??? I think it's the greatest poker hand ever in movies cause it's both legitimate (not Royal Flush vs 4 of a Kind) but it also tells the players whole narrative from betting behavior through ranges to the swings as each street progresses.
Teddy had pocket aces, its the only thing that makes sense when KGB said that last ace couldn't help you. It also makes a nice call back to the start of the movie when Mike lost to KGB having pocket aces, and this time Mike beat him when KGB had pocket aces.
Damnit. I JUST found this channel, and now I've got to binge for DAYS lol Mr Negreanu is one of my favorites...This could get dangerous lol
Good stuff... discovered you had a youtube channel this year and enjoyed your wsop vlog. Watching your old stuff to satisfy my appetite for some kid poker, DNEGS goodness. Thanks Brother.
Great video. Can you make one from the final hand in Casino Royale?
Why in the world would you do that? It is so silly, nothing at all realistic about that.
@@drawingdead9025 Exactly, literally the worst poker scene ever..
That hand is just pure bs so why?
Not sure why poker players get so upset about casino Royale. It's a James Bond movie with themes of poker that had to be simplified to create drama.
You really think James Bond fans are going to understand poker theory? How pretentious can you be? 😂
I love daniel! Nice poker player and youtuber haha ... im from argentina uwu
cool vid, I liked especially the speculation part at the end about what Kgb could have:)
old school raised and apparently adapted to new school play as well as i utterly understood everything u were saying and tend to think both ways depending on the player
I think you may be underestimating the psychological aspect of this session on this final hand. Teddy's been hit psychologically by Mikey revealing the Oreo tell. It's what goads him into challenging Mikey after he lost the first time, but the stack in front of Mikey by this hand shows that he's been steadily eroding Teddy's position. Teddy's taking risks, and they aren't turning out well for him. His constant table talk is his way of trying to break Mikey, and it isn't working. Even splashing the pot isn't working. Mikey's in total control and KGB is not. Therefore his betting isn't necessarily rational. I agree, he probably has pocket aces but it's also possible that he flopped a set of 10s and has convinced himself that Mikey is on a draw that he doesn't complete. Regardless, I don't think that you can expect rational betting from someone who, in the moment, isn't entirely rational.
The script had the rounder guy describing weak-is-strong tells, then he does them. And the actor, Matt Damon, did it too IRL, at the WSOP. He overacted ridiculously in real life and on screen.
😂😂😂😂😂
He almost fell from his chair
yeah because a lifeless, motionless, robot, isn't good movie character
KGB was intimidating him the whole night. It's not completely unreasonable to assume that when his draw "missed" his nerves would get the better of him. What doesn't make sense is that he was in for ~6K but he still had a ton of money in his stack so it's not like he was pot committed at that point.
You not talkin About matt affleck the poker pro right lol
From a fellow Torontonian. I love what you do. Always entertaining.
Ah, one of my favorite poker films. That final battle was just awesome.
What are the others?
I loved every second of this video, please do another hand from any other movie.
Don't forget the context of the hand where KGB cleans Mike out with pocket aces making aces full. Both hands go down in very similar fashion. That being said, I think KGB would of had made a set of aces on the river in this hand.
Love the movie! Going to watch it now
Great movie and video, thanks, will you be selling any packages for the wsop this summer
The "oreo" hand before this one was the best one
Can you explain what the tell ended up being? Was it the way he took it apart?
No, it was the fact he didn’t eat it. If you watch them earlier in the movie, he eats the Oreo when he has a good hand.
I actually would love to see a hand where you almost completely disagree with old vs new. Would be cool to hear the different reasoning vs the two. Almost like arguing with yourself.
A set for sure, overplayed after Mike had called post flop, and Teddy's confidence indicates aces as on the river means he wasn't afraid Mikey had been slow playing pocket aces when he shoved...
Fun video...
It's also a callback to earlier in the film where he's talking to Petra and watching an old World Series of poker video, he beats KGB the exact same way his hero Johnny Chan wins "Flops the nut straight and has the discipline to wait him out." Symbolizes Mike's game growing and evolving, signaling to himself that he's ready to take on greater challenges.
Is flopping the nuts and having patience really that big a skill? Not to mention the fact that Teddy is the aggressor throughout the hand.
I always thought he had top two with A 10. Top top on the flop, deuce changes nothing and he improves on the river.
But 5x with top pair after the Flop?
@@ThisIsMego that’s just movie production
@@ThisIsMego he was tilted from the previous hand, but id think aces would make more sense, which improves to a set on the river
Thats what i woulda thought also from the way he bet but u could bet AA like that on flop although its not smart
"That ace could not have helped you." Biggest tell ever. Teddy had pocket aces.
Thanks Daniel! You are the best.
Always educational & entertaining 😎
Now I must rewatch Rounders again.
Btw,we need a new poker movie. Hasn’t been a new one out in a hot minute.
Molly’s game is my favorite better than rounders
@@maxholt2869 seen it. It was decent.
Not since Casino Royale with Daniel Craig!
I donno but i heard the card counter is good not sure if its poker i forgot
@@jasonisfamous6544 eh, it’s meh at best.
Pocket aces makes the most sense with Teddy's "The ace could not have helped you" comment. The only way he'd know that for sure is if he had 2 aces.
Or fishing for info but ya i agree
Great video! What your plan for WSOP? Hopefully you play alot of events I will be down this year and would love to finally see you!
Question..... what if the turn card pairs the board? I've always wondered what would have happened if the turn paired here. Mike can't raise, he can't fold, and now he's facing a potential boat?
This was fun to watch cuz I love the movie, but I’m not a good enough poker player to understand the entire breakdown.
Teddy had TT. You can see his cards when he throws them down in anger if you pause at the right moment
Looked like 10 9 to me.
9 and T are similar but you can tell it’s a T if you pause it at the right time
LMAO, actually, if you watch it in slow motion and pause, which I just did because of this comment, you can see clearly that it is 8, 9 of clubs, which is obviously not canon. Probably an intentional easter egg by the movie makers.
@@brandonkellner4053It’s definitely TT
@@9k49 No, it's 8 and 9 of clubs, you can count the pips. Obviously an easter egg.
That was fun. Thanks, Daniel.
Huge fan! Love all your stuff!
I always figured Teddy had 10s. That's why he was so aggressive into the checks; he wanted to get paid for his set.
Tens don’t make sense here
Great analysis and your read of AAA if spot on, per the writer's parallel structure, i.e. opening sequence significant hand Teddy KGB limps and slowplays aces all the way through. Of course, writer gives him same hand in the final act.
Just watched this (again) yesterday!
Great to see you!
Terrible take on the girlfriend. Mikey's last stint at poker saw them lose everything and he had to get a delivery job just so they could pay the rent. He made a deal with her that he wasn't going to gamble anymore. The fact that he decided to go behind her back and continue to gamble, regardless whether he won money or not, was incredibly selfish and destructive to their relationship. All he needed to do was come clean and tell her that he wanted to keep gambling and that they should break up so he didn't potentially ruin her life... AGAIN. Mikey is out there borrowing money from his professors because he lets Worm get him into it again! I enjoyed the breakdown of the final hand, but dang, what a bad take on Mikey's relationship. He is absolutely the asshole in that situation. If you're going to make a promise to someone and then decide you cannot keep it, bare minimum, you tell them about what you're doing so they can have a say in whether they want to remain in a relationship with you or not.
Makes theatrical sense that Teddy lost his ass in the end calling a small preflop raise with aces because that’s how he busted Mike in the first place.
Seems all these poker geniuses have forgotten that small detail
Learned a lot, thx Dnegs
Great video topic. Love this movie!
It would make poetic justice that the hand that crushed him first (Pocket Aces) got beat the second time around.
I think AA makes the most sense, since--because it's a movie, and AA is the hand that Teddy had when he felted Mike in the beginning of the movie--it makes it a good story that they'd bring it back, so that Mike can get his revenge against the hand that beat him.
actually Teddy KGB played set of 10s.
he exposed his pocket 10s by throwing cards at the table when he realized he lost
@@olexandrs6639 Yup. Here's a screen grab I did .
Teddy slow played bullets in the opening beat as well. I think aces makes poker sense and cinematic sense here.
i put kjb on pocket sevens from the start but when he says aces dont help you thats an interesting 77 he was slowplaying aces because he crushed mike slowplaying the aa at the beginning of the movie
String bets and going back for more chips multiple times 😂
Yeah...I'll call you and I raise....what? String bet? WTF?!! Every poker movie has some of that action! LOL
It seems ridiculous if you’ve ever played in a poker room, but I swear to God back in the day in home games that shit went down All The Time.
@@KevinsDisobedience exactly along with the arguments 🤣
@@KevinsDisobedience I remember a home game, many decades ago, in which a player could add-on during a hand he was in.
@@JiveDadson The first time I played hold em in a casino in Calgary in the early 90s a player bet twice what I had in front of me. The dealer said it was my choice if I wanted to get more chips and match it. I said no but the dealer told the other player he had to leave his raise in the pot. We both had aces and chopped and I got half of his raise. He didn't even seem upset by this it was very weird.
Must have had aces since that's what he had in the first scene. It's the only hand that makes sense from a poetic standpoint.
TT, you can see it if you watch carefully when cards are flipped
This guy is alright ya know.
@@robbiewilson6133 Wrong!
@@PaulinTaegu he had TT, 1 red 1 black
I was guessing the same thing slow played aces. Also in the fist match up Teddy KGB gives off a classic verbal tell to hide his strength. "That is a positional raise so I will call". He did this instead of 3 betting and narrowing his range.
I can’t believe this video exists. As I’ve just finished watching rounders I thought to myself. “What would Daniel Think of this film lol sure enough here you are. Spot on
I’ve always thought KGB had a set of 7’s in that hand and just thought Mikey was drawing the whole time out of desperation.
What if Mike had AA?
@@Trubador24 what if kgb was fishing for an answer?
I think teddy had AA. The river made him so fucking happy he felt he had Mike’s ass. Wrong!
He had TT, you can see at 6:29
@@jasonstaroscik2883 AA.
A friend once told me theres a very small angle where it appears Teddy had pocket 1010, not sure if theres any confirmation of this but I think it makes the most sense, despite the hand not making much sense in the first place haha!
that's right. I also spotted it when reviewed.
I submit that Teddy had trip 10's and that Ace line was about the river card meaning nada to Mike...Works for me!
teddy kgb definitely had a set or pocket aces
That would be the samething in this case...
I freakin’ love this movie
I don't know how old this is, I didn't catch you at first. You are the kid baby! It's a pleasure. I wish I could talk to you seriously just for an hour. I love have lived in Vegas for 20 years.
Thanks for the content bro !! Love watching you bust hellmuth! 😂