The Truck Market has COLLAPSED! Buyers REFUSE to Pay For OVERPRICED Trucks!
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- čas přidán 25. 12. 2023
- The Truck Market JUST COLLAPSED... here's why. Truck prices have gotten out of hand... what used to cost $45K is now $80-90K, and what's insane. The three reasons behind the new truck market collapsing include:
1. Terrible Interest Rates
2. Awful Trade-In Values
3. MSRP Hikes
And the cherry on top... Some greedy dealerships refuse to drop their markups! What are your thoughts as we go into 2024? Will we begin to see a market correction? What needs to give first, interest rates or MSRPs?
Thanks for watching as always. Please consider Liking and Subscribing if you haven't already. Appreciate the support!!
-Stay Untamed...
#trucks #dealerships #markups
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@untamed_motors - Auta a dopravní prostředky
We the People refusing to buy those overpriced vehicles are our greatest weapon. We have been ripped off for too long by these scam car dealerships.🤬
They want $80K to $105K for $50K to $65K trucks, they are crazy.
That’s the unfortunate reality we now live in… 😔
Until they stop making sales
They had a $67,000 F250 "STX".. it was regular cab with the gas motor.. 67K for that is just insane. The "STX" is just an XL work truck that the phone company would buy but with nicer wheels and some other minor cosmetic upgrades. Ford and its customers are on different pricing planets right now.. Thats a 47K truck at most.
If the trucks had zero problems for 15 years you could justify the prices. The problem is these new vehicles are piles of crap that spend a lot of time at the dealer for one thing or another. Hold the line people and keep what you got so these prices come back to earth.
And it cost the manufacturers around 20-25k to make and ship them to a point of sale. Any vehicles that they are asking more than 50k for nowadays is overpriced unless it is a "luxury" vehicle. Anyone buying a "luxury" vehicle nowadays has more money than sense.
Semper Fi!
You gotta love how Stellantas is "discounting" the new RAM 1500s, by $17K after they JACKED UP the MSRP by $30K! What a deal! Is it any wonder that those trucks are sitting on the lot for 120days, rotting away!
Yeah they think that the costomer is uninformed...they make it sound like a deal...
When one speaks of spending 100 large on a pickup truck as "normal", that could be defined as insanity.
100%, I paid 66k for my first house. Anyone paying that for a depreciable item is foolish IMHO. Buy a used one for 30k invest the other 70k. That 70k investment will pay off in 15 years, and that truck will be beat up and ready to junk.
In Canada anything over 100K CDN (75K USD) is subject to an additional 10%-20% luxury tax. So combined with the other taxes when you buy a 100K truck you are looking at and additional 25+% on top of the purchase price and around 25K in interest. So the truck you pay 100K for at the lot will end up costing you 150K including taxes/interest and will be worth maybe 35K-40K when the loan is paid off.
Cybertruck buyers have entered the chat.
People always quote the top trim with all the toys to be the most dramatic. All these light duty and HD trucks can be bought at MSRP for $35k and $45k starting. $100k trucks are like 5% of truck sales, if that. Entitlement is why everyone immediately goes to looking at top trims then complaining about how much they cost. Yes, the truck market is still a bit inflated.
@@Slythey You might be able to get a basic truck for close to those prices but people are not being dramatic when complaining about rising truck MSRPs.
Let me give you an example. My current truck is an 2019 F-150 Lariat. I paid $49900 CDN in 2019 new. The identical truck in a 2024 model year is $94000 CDN and I can get that truck for maybe $87,000 CDN if I haggle. That is an increase of $37000 or 75% in 5 years. That also does not include the higher interest rates which have doubled and the higher cost of insurance.
When you factor in both of these items the cost for that truck has effectively doubled in 5 years. According to you I shouldn't complain and just buy a new one with a fraction of the options my old truck had.
For me, anything more than $40K for a vehicle is too much. My car is 14 years old, i own it outright (no debt), it runs great, i will run it forever before i pay these new car prices.
In my opinion, manufacturers increased msrp far higher than what inflation warranted. The reason is because of dealer mark ups. Manufacturers saw what dealers were getting and so they bumped msrp so they could get a piece of that pie thinking it would just cut in to what dealer mark ups were without hurting sales. The idea was to punish the dealers. It has now appropriately back fired on dealers and manufacturers.
They also marked up because of ev. Trying to recoup loss in ev.. at same time bump price of gas over ev...funny how the prices became so close yet in beginning ev was 60% higher. 🤔
Agree 💯
Part of the issue is the very high trim trucks with a lot of optional equipment. Luxury is nice for people that can afford it but Ford and others need to focus on value. The STX has been Ford's value trim for years.. its an XL work truck with nicer wheels and either painted bumpers or some chrome accents.. but its hard to find an STX these days and the few that do exist go for a premium... which is ironic.
Someone has to cover the increased CAFE and emission standards… plus the EV losses….
It's hard to say looking at YOY increases on truck cost, but inflation outpaced the average wage increase of 4-4.5% annual by nearly double over the past few years. A lot of people aren't even getting 4-4.5% raises annually. I believe trucks jumped the most from 2022-2023, in some cases up to 10-11%
Insane MSRPs and astronomical interest rates have caused me to literally not care to look anymore. I’ve removed myself from the foreseeable market. I’m good with my current vehicles for an easy 6-7 years.
Completely agree. I took your idea and gave my local Toyota dealer who was marking up their vehicles the past couple year a 1 star google review. They wrote me back within a couple hours asking them to call them. Lol. That review will stay up.
good job don't budge!!
I like how you compared same model cars to prior years. 3 years was not that long ago and the price jumped so much. This is what I've been telling people and it's almost like they don't even realize it.
Doofus products, built by doofus manufacturers, in a doofus economic era... sold to doofus customers. They deserve each other.
today you have no business buying a $100k truck unless you paying cash
No business buying a truck for $100k in general
you got that RIGHT. and the 15yrs of free money is over.
I'll walk before I pay 100k for a truck
Settle down Dave Ramsey 😂
Loser mentality. If rate is low, you borrow. Let money make more money for you
I think that a lot of consumers are simply maxed out! Everything got so expensive so fast that people just don't have the money for an 80-100K $ truck. So they will hang on to their current vehicle as long as possible. Plus, it's not like people enjoy going to a car dealership anyway, just to feel scamed and ripped off!
Toyota: We are no longer an econo brand. Time to raise our prices to math the American brands.
American truck companies: Econo brand just raised its prices. Time to jack up our prices.
Consumers: Huh?!? We like trucks but we don't need them.
$106K for a pickup truck is normal? What planet are we living on?
A 106K truck in my state would also cost me around $2,000 in property taxes every October...
Well done, Untamed. You are right on. What I have found, despite horrendous new/used cars sales, dealers are refusing to drop to cut their losses.
Obviously dealerships have tons and tons of overheads, loans, etc., etc.however, you would think they need to "cash" out and get an infusion of cash coming in
as they have banks calling in loans and their expenses rising significantly every day.
I think dealership owners have made their money and are ready to go bankrupt before they lower prices. OEMs, same deal but they will wait for govt bailouts.
When they all go under and they will we all need to make a stand against government bailouts. No more crony capitalism, if you can’t run a business and be profitable then you should be allowed to fail and make room for the next person that can. Bail outs are ridiculous and send a message to never change anything. All the rats just take what they can as the ship slowly sinks knowing that their own personal wealth will never be touched. CEO’s making 30 million….get out of here.
Great for us in the long run. Never bought high and happy to see prices dropping. Hopefully they continue to fall well below the inflated MSRPs. No problem with the dealers who charged market adjustments getting hurt with the crunch. They are responsible for predatory tactics and deserve what they get
You’re right my friend, I have been buying cars from Don McGuil Toyota here in Houston for 30 years. Last month they tried to stab me with $10k over MSRP on a new Tacoma. Got up and left with my $50 thousand check in hand.
That’s a shame… sorry to hear they tried to do you like that after showing decades of loyalty. Smh… their loss.
yeah i just walked out after they wouldnt budge on a 15k mark up, the can kiss my a$$
Outstanding video. You did a great job clearly explaining where the auto market currently sits. Much respect brother.
Thanks a ton man, I appreciate that feedback! =]
3 TRD Pros at my local dealership! Dealer has about 40 Tundras….crazy thing is still have mark ups.
Freakin crazy…
Thanks for your research and educating us.
Let them all go to the wall. 27k interest on a 100k depreciating asset is crazy.
Great explanation and i completely agree on the used trade-in values. Two years ago Carmax was willing to give me 33k for my 18 F150, now 23k with only adding 8k miles in those 2 years.
Thanks for another great video. Keep it up. 👍🏽
Great info! thanks untamed
Appreciate the very thoughtful analysis
"back in the day" of the 1970's & '80's, 10% was an ok car loan. The prices now are crazy though. I was looking at trucks and they are all crew cabs with high trim levels and loads of options.
Thanks for your insight, useful.
I love that you have an MBA in the marketing trend analysis and apply to being our consumer advocate. Thanks!
This is a great time for people to invest in good tools and equipment to repair and maintain what they already have. The auto industry right now is just one big Space-Opera, they FAR surpassed clown-world, they are headed for the clown-verse!
I appreciate how you break it down with MSRP changes and interest rate changes. Makes me feel like I'm not crazy for saying prices are ridiculous RN.
My pleasure man! Yeah prices are out of this world right now… combined with awful interest rates… it’s ridiculous. =\
Thank you for your service.
Good information!! If I were to purchase a new truck today and walked into the dealership and there was any mention of a dealer addendum I would immediately turn and walk out and would listen to no attempts to get you to stay. Greed kills and now it's coming back and biting these manufacturers in the you know what.
Right On Untamed. I Totally Agree 👍🏼
Agreed Fishman! Greed is preventing many of us from enjoy vehicles.
I agree, 2 factors people stay away from new 2024 cars. Sticker Shock & inflation. These 2 has to come down before i step into a dealership.
prices wont come down but incentives up the rear are coming
Nice. Let’s keep it going!
Bought a new 2023 Toyota tundra limited with trd package and I force max power train for 10k under sticker . It was listed at 66k and I got it for 56,500 . Still a ton for a truck but I got em by the balls hahahaha I went through their financing which was 8% to get such a steep discount then went to my credit union and option contracted it and got a 3.99 percent rate haha felt like I won something
You paid too much…congratulations on being upside down
@@JCreole I didn’t pay for anything , I get a 1000 dollar a month vehicle allowance for work haha
In today's market place you got a good deal deal!
I’m so glad I’m not shopping for a new vehicle right now..agree with everything stated. Prices and interest rates are insane
It’s not normal to pay 100k for a pickup truck. These are not quality vehicles. You’d have to be nuts to pay that much. To me anything over 50k is pushing it. Especially for GM, Ford, Dodge poorly built stuff.
Great insight! Great points
Thanks brother. Appreciate it! 🙏🏼
I love trucks I usually trade in every 2 years. I bought my 2019 f350 and figured I’d trade it in 2021, but prices were crazy. At this point I’ll keep it as long as I can out of spite.
I'm so annoyed of people blaming interest rates when it pertains to the auto and housing market. The real issue is in the price. It isn't that hard to realize.
I agree with you to a certain extent but to overcome the current rates there would have to be, not a 10% drop in price but a 40-50% drop in price. Do you agree?
@@shanewhittemore yep
You hit the nail on the head brother on all points!!
Always have liked and subscribed ever since your firstWyoming house with the Shelby and WRX/STi
Yep, I am one of those just waiting for things to come back down. I am following the buy low/sell high philosophy.
I picked up a fully loaded '22 F250 King Ranch Tremor (7.3 gas gooseneck) for MSRP at $68k in Dec 2021 (after a drunk driver on thanksgiving hit and totaled my 2018). That '22 F250 jumped to $76k MSRP by late spring in 2023. A '23 or 24 optioned out the same was between $85-88k. So that's upwards of a $20k price increase in less than 2 years. Yes, the '23 came with a few new toys (HUD, full digital gauge cluster, refreshed interior/exterior), but by far and large it was mostly cosmetic changes with a few small tech updates- certainly not worth the price increase of 29% which is over double what inflation was.
Many truck buyers will never financially recover from this. Doing the math I traded in an over inflated used car in for a Ridgeline lease earlier this year. I have the optionality if car values tank or if they keep going up the. I get to stay at a fixed cost for up to 3 years.
It is going to get worse for dealerships/ppl trying to flip imo
Prices and interest rates are definitely ridiculous. I would have been in the market, wanting an HD truck up from my Ram 1500 but I definitely can't afford anything with low miles and I'm good shape. Alpine Ford here in Pueblo Colorado has add-on addendums. The whole thing is very sad.
Was looking at a diesel Sierra 1500 Elsvation. Their OTD? 68k with all fees and a $2000 addendum told them no, it’s been on market for 180 days and wouldn’t pay that. They claimed new arrival, I laughed and told them I know reputable sources for info and said I was moving on. They asked when I can come in. I have not answered.
I bought this exact vehicle with cash and no trade new in march 2021 and paid exactly $50,000.00. The window sticker was 57,000.00.
Great video and spot on.
Thanks Jorge! 🙏🏼
I watched a video the other day and they showed a 23 truck that was on for over 200 days. Another example was a dealership trying to sell a 2022 Jeep Waggoner (100K MSRP) and it was on the lot over 300 days. Just wild.
Great video 👍
Now people see how great a deal a new ‘21 Heritage Land Cruiser was at 84,500 (what I paid)….and remember, at the time they were considered “over priced” by the experts.
MUCH better than the high end Sequoias that are nearing that price. So much better bulit!
I remember just about every dealer around 2018-2021 always had left over new Land Cruisers in the showrooms. They were trying to unload them to free up cash.
It was very common to see new leftovers with $10k - $15k or more off the MSRPs of $82k or so back then. I wouldn't make an aggressively low offer if you didn't want to own one back then. Not that long ago.
Yeah wish I had the money in 2021 I actually went with the trd pro sequoia at that time.. family vehicle..
@@eddieaguilar8959 still a great choice!
Totally agree. I debated between buying an HE or waiting until the new Sequoia/ Tundra came out. Glad I got the HE. Not impressed with the new models ( even if they were at old model prices), with possible exception of the offroad trim version of the GX550.
😂 been calling the dealers asking them for 0% interest they don’t call me back but this week they called me again and offered 1.9%
I was able to Purchase a 24 4Runner TRD Pro in Underground for $1000 under MSRP yesterday. What a swing in prices!
California was rough. I was looking to get a tundra for work and every tundra was marks up 5-10k and sold before hitting the lot.
Same boat try Toyota longo we approved for a limited then I back to earth no way I’m paying 80k for a truck
Leasehackr has some good tundra deals 5-8 off msrp
Interest rates are not insane. I am 69 years old, I know. High prices will cure high prices.
Exactly, if a product doesn't sell, the price comes down. 👍
I believe this is how the manufacturer are trying to cover the money they are losing hand over fist on electric vehicles. Buy used and pay cash.
Manufacturers also are losing money in the way of fines that the govt imposes on them. GM and Stellantis paid $364 million in fuel-related fines over the last few years. Well, where do they get the money to pay those fines? Answer: They jack up the prices for cars they sell to the public.
BTW the govt is full aware that the fines ultimately come out of public's pockets. I guess that as long as the public is paying, why not keep milking...
I just grabbed a really nice 2011 f150 fx4 crew cab fully loaded with 140,000 km on it for $15,000 cash. 😊
We need to have retail used prices come down too. A local dealership here in Honolulu is asking $56,998 for a 2023 Tacoma Pro in white w/6,578 miles on it.
Keep hearing vehicle prices are going to have to fall for the past year or more but have yet to see it. It’s taking a long time to happen.
Not only that bro!! Insurance of vehicle are sky rocketing too. Especially with EV and hybrid.
It’s not the interest rate that’s the problem it’s the original price of a truck any vehicle you buy is a liability. If you’re spending $100,000 on a truck you have to assume that that money is gone there is no recovering it because the truck is a liability.
I think Auto Makers and Home estates are so crazy, what are they thinking? Do they think we people making a lot of money? These days, average people only make $20 to $25 per hour and how can we afford a car or truck of $50k to 70k and a house of half a million but jobs are moved overseas... smh..
Guess I'll be turning my focus back to my wishlist mid life crisis 2 wheeled machines. Prices are pretty stable.😂
I was watching another video of yours and you were using the term "cash grab",,,, i think the existing term is "nickle and diming the shi.. Out of me" i added the last part, but you get it. I like your videos so far. I am a tesla fan boy so of course i would sugest you look at the cybertruck deposit list, and the crazy car sales. You want to be well rounded and ballanced right? Good luck to you. I miss SLC, i will be back soon, I hope.
Can't even get the dust off of em' 😂😂😂
If everyone would not buy a car for 20 months the market would be back to normal.No truck is worth 50 thousand or higher.Everyone’s vehicle note should be no more than 19% of their bring home pay.
the value of the dollar has dropped, not buying a truck won't change that.
I’ve been trying to buy a truck for 6-8 months…..but can’t justify spending $800-$1000+ a month….and I’ll never buy from a dealership that puts markups on their cars.
Not in the market until rates come down and dealer and manufacturer discounts are back. :-)
I went out looking for new Ram, or Chevy Pickup, Ram has some incitive , and the salespeople focus on that. but the MSRP is about $ 25000 to high, so you still not getting a discount, you take a $80,000 new truck, and if you need to sale, it in 6 months you be lucking to $ 60,000,
Good video. But I disagree with the interest rate although not a truck I recently purchased a lexuse es 350 for the wife. Financed through lexus and got a 4% rate and 4500 off of msrp. Solid deal in tampa florida
Im just glad my 18 year old pickup still runs well. Im gonna keep driving it and saving my money. 👍
The U.S. government for decades, if not more, have financed their defecit spending by selling Treasury bonds to anyone, usually foreign governments, stupid enough to buy them. Well, now they don't want them anymore so they dump them. Those bonds represent cash dollar bills. The Federal Reserve is forced to buy them back. They create dollars out of thin air. When those dollars come back they devalue every dollar you and I hold. That's what causes price increases. That's what causes interest rate hikes.
SOLUTION: STOP PLAYING THEIR GAME!!!
Tell me honestly. When was the last time you or anyone reading this bought a car because you really, really needed it? If anyone really needs a car and have to finance it they are the ones getting screwed. If you finance a car because you want the next greatest thing then, your getting what you deserve. SORRY!
Have you ever read about the Weimar Republic? In the early 20th century in Weimar Germany they were engaged in the same fiscal irresponsability that the U.S. government is engaged in now. At the worst of times if the people wanted to buy a loaf of bread the price required a wheel barrel full of money, but by the time they wheeled it to the store their money had devalued more and they still did not have enough. We may soon be looking at a time like that.
Believe me, long before it gets that bad here, financing a new car won't be something anyone will even fanticise about. Guess who will fall the hardest. It won't be the govenment.
It'll be it's slaves.
The only degree that I have is the one I earned at THE SCHOOL OF HARD KNOCKS.
100% all correct. Even for cash buyers it's just don't make since. I have my deposit down and will get 1st option on Trd pro tacoma or trail hunter. After seeing the prices now on 1st release of Tacoma's it seems these two will be 60k plus. I'm now thinking I may pass. At that price I'd prefer a new Land Cruiser. I just don't know. I need to update my 11 yr old vw touareg tdi but geez. I was tempted to get a gladitor Rubicon with 15k off but I just want something more comfortable and not as much wind noise.
You may pass? Why would anyone even consider getting ripped off?
Hearing many dealers are or will be going out of business because of new vehicle prices & interest rates. My opinion is After how they treated customers especially the past few years it couldnt be more richly deserved.
Any consumer writing an offer to purchase a vehicle today should line item a minus $15,000
Customer adjustment fee.
Still no deals in Boise Idaho for Heavy Duty Trucks.
This correction, or impending correction was inevitable, if you could, you,ve been waiting it out but the automakers have been taking advantage of those who couldn't. Yeah, many could but didn't but some vehicles just get used up and are more expensive to keep on the road. The rust belt consumes all.
The gravy train was going to end but they're gonna milk it for all they can, even if they have to suffer an overstock for a while. Toyota will be interesting to watch, with the revamp of the Taco and LC dropping in 24 the new will likely be strong sellers even with fat MSPRs. I bet the Trailhunters will sell for a premium over MSPR easily for a while. Will it steal TRD PRO sales or convince buyers into that higher price point? I think the LC will sell strong, production volume will dictate the market adjustments, likely hefty for while.
I just checked my local ram dealership they have 509 Jeeps and rams all new Folsom lake ram
There are 2 new 2023 F-150 Lightening trucks sitting on the local Ford Dealership lot with a $89K sticker.
Great truck. Not at that price though 😂
It's too late, the horse is already out of the barn & consumer's are partly to blame for paying these INSANE prices!! Manufacturers & dealers are the real criminals.
I think it is just a deal between car manufacturing and dealership. Instead of putting in 10k markup on top of MSRP. Now they jack up MSRP more than 10k to hide the 10k mark up. This way no one will complaint about any mark up. They didn't realize is that whatever they are doing is out of reach of potential buyers anyway.
still over priced for the trucks on the market. looked at sr5 tundra it was marked down $3500 this was 2 weeks ago , the sales man called today guess no one wanted it , im not paying 9% and $895 mo
I tried buying a USED RAM about a week ago. Refused the deal. Now the dealer has RAISED its truck prices. Yep, they are going up! By over $3k!
100% correct! Also ADD ONS!
Its not just trucks, also old beater cars. I had looked at 2007 Honda Accord with over 155k miles with hail damage at Autonation and they want 8000$ with taxes and fees.
One thing ive noticed some dealerships doing too is selling new cars as "used" with 200 miles just so they can jack up the price more than the manufacturer allows. They deserve to go under. This is a Chevrolet dealership too to be specific
do a google review on them!!
@@shanewhittemore I thought about it, but I'm afraid they'd come after me for defamation or something similar.
They are nasty bast__ds!!!@@rogersoccer19
What I don't understand is how the dealers are going to clear this inventory without claiming bankruptcy.
The dealers don't own these cars, the banks do, so they only have a small margin in which they can move the price down to sell these trucks.
If interest rates stay sky high these vehicles are literally going to rot on the lot.
Manufacturer's will have to lay off all workers and banks may have to take ownership of millions of unsold vehicles.
This can only end in one of two ways, manufacturers and dealers go out of business or banks eat the loan costs and resell the vehicles at huge discounts.
Third possibility is the banks just shred the surplus vehicles. Not a first option, but definitely a possibility.
What does this mean if you’re in the market to buy a new 3/4 ton work truck? Will prices go down? When is the best time to buy?
I think the best time to buy is either right now to get carryover 23 models… or wait 90 days or so. I think we’ll continue to see a decline, dealers will get desperate in Feb/March.
Supply & demand....manufacturers and dealers will charge what the market will bear. In the last few years, the market supported these inflated prices because demand was high and supply was relatively low. Now the market is starting to correct itself....it has happened in the past and will continue in the future.
I’m just trying to get a Supra 3.0. It’s rough out here.
$100k for a truck is insanity. I just looked at a new Tundra Limited and it was over $65,000! lol I paid $42,500 brand new for my 2019 Tundra TRD Limited!!
If you’re reading this, say this out loud. “A $100,000 truck.” Crazy, right? This should not be anywhere close to normal until maybe the year 2075. Maybe.
The Big problem is that the trucks are not worth what the OEMS are charging in the first place.
In my opinion the truck and auto industry will soon be at a crossroad, they can continue to build expensive vehicles that won't sell or they can build smaller with less bells and whistles that more people can afford. Eventually trucks will be for utility only, autos for getting from point A to point B. They'll all be throw away vehicles designed to last a few years then will be recycled. You won't trade, you'll just buy another. We're seeing the industries last hurrah, another decade or so we'll see. One thing is for sure, the price increases can't continue indefinitely, at this rate will be looking at prices only the very rich can afford.
The consumer is charge, don't but until they adjust their offering to meet your requirements.
I’m happy interest rates have made cars less affordable. Low to almost no interest rates is what allowed dealerships to sell with Mark Ups.
Now we cash buyers can actually get a deal if this industry continues to plummet
Nobody really paying a mark up right now ?? 😂
It’s just gotta be a negotiating tactic if you see one. They drop the mark up you pay MSRP and the dealership laughs all the way to the bank is what they are hoping for.
2.5% interest was not normal. The idea that borrowers should not have to pay for capital really only represented a moment in time, which is unlikely to come back or last. I think 5-6% is normal, but it does make you think twice about the purchase. Not necessarily bad thing.
Low rates happened to benefit American corporations, not the American people.. Low rates don't save the consumer any money.. the manufactures/dealers know when money is cheap.. so they just jack up the price and pad their margins because they know the consumer can afford the payment.
Its all too expensive. Personally, I pay cash for everything and am not willing to spend even 40k on a vehicle. Drain that much money from my wealth for a depreciating asset is just stupid. I can keep my car now for many many years. People stop buying in mass, we as a group can break the matket.