On homosexuality | J. Krishnamurti
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- čas přidán 7. 12. 2018
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Ojai 1984 - Question #3 from Question & Answer Meeting #2
'There are many people who have considerable difficultly with homosexuality. Could you, even briefly, put some light on this question?'
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There have been reports of audio issues from 25:30. We apologise for that; we are revising the whole Ojai 1984 series, which has several of these audio problems. For the time being, please try using headphones, as that seem to solve the problem, and you can refer to the following transcript:
3rd QUESTION: There are many people who have considerable difficulty with the fact of homosexuality. Teachers, for centuries have avoided this enquiry. Could please, even briefly put some light on this question? I have travelled two thousand miles to ask this question.
There are many people who have considerable difficulties with the fact of homosexuality. Teachers, for centuries have avoided this question. Could you please, even briefly put some, answer this question? I have travelled two thousand years - miles (laughter) to ask this question? Sorry, quite right. I have travelled two thousand years! This has been a question for thousands and thousands and thousands of years. It isn’t something new. We are not taking sides in this matter. We don’t condemn it or approve it or disapprove it. These are facts. Right? As heterosexuality is a fact. Homosexuality exists in the world, in different parts of the world very common, other parts of the world it is practically unknown. So how do you answer this question? What is the question? Why do we make it into such an enormous problem? Apparently we don’t make heterosexuality a problem at all, but we make this into a problem, why? It is a fact. So should we enquire into this question, into heterosexuality, and homosexuality differently? Not condemn one or the other, or approve one and deny the other, but enquire why sexuality, both, has become so colossally important. Right? Why? You answer this question. On television, in magazines, every best seller, has this element in it, in detail, every day. You are following? I don’t have to tell you all this. Everyday it is emphasised - sexuality, I am not talking about homo or heterosexuality, general sexuality. Why have human beings given such great importance to this? And if it is not important you feel there is something wrong with you, that you are neurotic, that you have to fulfil, you know dozens and dozens of explanations by the psychologists, by the experts, by the sexual analysts. Why? Is it pleasure? Remembrance in the pictures of sexuality - you understand? Why has man given throughout the ages such extraordinary importance to this? If you are deprived of it you feel something terrible has happened. And you can voluntarily say, I won’t have any, I will become a celibate, and join a monastery, or not join a monastery, or remain a celibate with all the problems of celibacy. Right?
So what is the question? Why has this thing been given such a place in life? It is part of life. Right? Part of walking, seeing, running, laughing, tears, it is part of life. But why has this one thing taken importance. And it is being encouraged very carefully. Right? By the entertaining industry. Please go into all this. And the psychologists have also encouraged this: fulfil. And some mothers feel there is something wrong with their daughter or son who doesn’t have a boy or girl friend after the age of twelve, thirteen. This is all what is happening in the world, especially in this country. In the traditional countries like India, and other countries, there still they say, please wait, don’t indulge, wait until you are twenty or twenty two, or whatever it is.
So seeing all this, what does one learn from all this? Learn, not morally, not morality, not celibacy and so on, but what does one learn from all this? Come on, sirs! Religions throughout the world, the ancient - I won’t call them the very ancient - the Hindus, the Buddhists, Christianity, have always said, be a celibate, if you want to follow God be a celibate. Why? And they take vows of celibacy, join monasteries, become a monk, a wandering monk, as they do in India, and go through tortures with this. Right? They have taken a vow, they must stick to it. I don’t know why they take a vow first but once you have taken a vow you have to follow that which you have accepted. But psychologically, inwardly, the glands, everything is functioning, and you have a terrible time. The speaker has talked to many, many of them. They go through hell. Religion has done that. You know all this, don’t you?
And one asks: why has man said to himself, to achieve the most sublime you must be a celibate? Do you understand? That is, you must torture yourself, go through agonies and then you will be nearer god. It seems so childish, the whole thing. Sorry! I have met many, many sanyasis, in India, monks. I won’t go into the details of it, they have tortured themselves in every way. Because the popular opinion is that to reach god, to reach the highest, you must live a life of absolute abstinence. Which means human beings have never understood what is austerity. May we go into that? You are not bored with all this? I don’t mind if you are bored. Probably you don’t want to go into all this, it may disturb you very much. Please don’t be disturbed because we are dealing with facts.
What is austerity? You know the root meaning of that word, as we explained the other day, to be austere means to have, in Greek, a dry mouth, not from drinks, but a dry mouth, which is to be harsh, to be sharp, to be dry. And so gradually the human being has this idea it must be austere, and has made himself into ashes. You understand? When you are forcing yourself day after day, month after month, year after year, driving yourself you end up as a dry human being. And if you indulge in the other direction you have the same problem.
So can one live a life without conflict? You understand? Neither extremes, which imply conflict, and the sensory demands and the suppression of sensory demands. Can one live without a single battle, effort, struggle between the two? You understand my question? That requires a great deal of enquiry into the whole problem of desire, will, wish, and the biological urges. Do you understand? Do you want to go on with this?
Transcript part 2/2:
There is a very good question at the end - I just saw it! How is one to live on this earth - please listen to it - how is one to live on this earth without harm or destruction to its beauty, without bringing suffering and death to others?
But we must finish our question which we were talking about previously. Could we bear another quarter of an hour? Are you working the same as the speaker is working, or are you just listening? Is your brain as active, working, enquiring, doubting, intense, to find out a way of living something totally different?
We were saying, to live a life without conflict requires an investigation into the whole question of desire, which is a very, very complex problem. Do you really want to go into all that? I am not asking out of encouragement, I am just asking. It is a very serious thing that we are undertaking. It is no good just merely listening and repeating, that has no meaning at all. But seeing what the facts are in this world, what is actually taking place in the world, not only in this country but in every country, in so-called every culture. And conflict in man is increasing more and more and more, not less and less. Man means woman and man, so please don’t get excited about it - why don’t I talk about women. Unless one understands very deeply the movement of desire, not the description of it, not the explanation of it, but to enquire why desire becomes so extraordinarily important: desire to become successful, desire to have money, desire for sex, for excitement, for amusement, the tremendous urge and the speed of it, and the demand for its fulfilment. Again religions have said you must suppress desire, which means another battle, another conflict, another torture. You know religion has played havoc with human beings. And they are still doing it, not only in the Christian world but in the whole world, the Islamic world, look what they are doing in Iran and Iraq. Don’t talk of it!
So what is desire? Please understand we are not trying to suppress it, or encourage it, but it is a fact. The fact is that we are driven by desire. And to thwart it is pain. Right? A sense of not being able to fulfil. So at any cost, at any price we want the fulfilment of desire. You may say desire for god, desire for understanding, it is still desire. Gosh, must I go into all this?
When you look at a tree and the beauty of the tree, the light upon the leaf, and the mountains beyond it, the valleys, the shades and the dappled light, and see that enormous beauty of the earth, that is sensation. Right? I won’t go into the question, is beauty sensation, I am not going into that, that’s another problem. No, not a problem, that is quite another thing, very interesting if you go into it: is beauty sensation? When you see all that, the earth and its beauty, it is a sensation. Right? Seeing with the optical eyes, with the eyes, and the seeing, the very seeing arouses the sensations. Right? Seeing a beautiful woman or a man arouses various kinds of sensations. Then that sensation is correct, isn’t it, normal, healthy, natural, unless one is paralysed, blind, and deaf, dumb. That is when one is sensitive one is acutely aware of all this. And you see this. There is perception of all this. Then what takes place? You are looking at those hills. The seeing of those hills arouses certain sensations. Then what is the next step to that? Enquire, please, look at it. Does then thought come in and say, what a beautiful thing that is? Right? Thought then creates an image out of that sensation. Right? I am not saying anything that is not factual, this is not supposition or fictitious. Sensation - contact, sensation, then thought makes an image of that sensation. Right? Are you following? When thought makes an image out of that sensation then desire is born. Sensation is not desire. Sensation is sensation. But when thought comes and says, yes, what a lovely thing that is, what a lovely dress that is, nice shirt - being a man - nice shirt, or a woman says, nice dress. Goes inside, touches it, feels it, puts it on, and then thought says, how beautiful I look. That’s a nice shirt on me. Then desire is born. You understand this? This is a fact. It is not something theoretical, it is a fact.
Now the question is, if you go into it much deeper, sensation, seeing a beautiful painting, beautifully framed and beautifully lit, marvellous, that is a sensation. Then the thought says, I wish I had that in my room. Then when the thought assumes the authority over sensation desire is born. Now the question is: can sensation and thought be kept apart? Go into this. Not through will, through compulsion, effort and all that, we are asking a very serious and simple question. Sensation is natural, thought is also somewhat natural, with its image. That’s what happens. Now can there be a gap, an interval, a hiatus, so that sensation and thought are separate? You understand? See what is implied in it. It requires tremendous attention, great watchfulness. Seeing, sensation. The speaker has seen some most beautiful things in the world, beautiful cars, beautiful people - please I am not using that in the common sense - beautiful people. So it is natural to look at this world, this enormous beauty, the destruction, what human beings are doing to the earth, and see some of the most beautiful gardens in the world, houses, palaces, and so on, we have lived in them and all that. And never to be identified with any of it. Oh, you don’t know all this. Never ask, ‘I wish I had it’. You understand? That requires great perception, watchfulness and clarity.
And all that implies a sense of great inward learning, which is discipline. Learning is discipline, not conformity.
Thank you my friend:)
@@KFoundation thank you so much for the transcription
J. Krishnamurti - Official Channel I’m so grateful for the enormous changes these videos had brought to me❣️ 🙏🏻 I wish that all human beings could hear, feel and actually see what Mr. Krishnamurti is saying. They are not just words, the powerful energy that comes through, even though I wasn’t sitting in front of him, made me feel like I was in his presence!!! Practicing what I’ve learned from him, trying this out for myself, finding out for myself like he suggested has been a tremendous experience 🙌🏼 ☺️
noted. why?
Man, some of these comments. It is hilarious reading 'spiritual' people argue with each other about who is more enlightened. Let's consider the possibility that everybody knows something we do not know, and be patient with one another. Cool video :)
If you're arguing you're not enlightened
People keep focusing on the wrong thing, it's never about ''the messenger'' it's always about the message, does your life gets enhance with it or not, that's all it is about.
Every soul is at a different point in its development. I don't think questioning negates enlightenment but rather shows struggle with acceptance. I just accept we're all at different stages and one is not more or less than another. The variables that surround each of our lives are just lessons we need so however anyone is responding is merely a reflection of their inner world and necessary for their soul's advancement.
@@robbiemontgomery581 Which recognised enlightened being said that? Or is it just you?
im mor inleghtiened then u bro
“Religions has played havoc with human beings and is still doing it”
Best statement!
Including the religion of wokism-globalism right now.
i read this as He said real time watching the video.
trippy
@@MegaUpstairs you don't need to have an opinion about buddha, observe what you are why is it important to you if buddha was woke ,leftist or right
All religions are scams. True spirituality is impossible.
I want to organize a day like this. Lets all just go sit under the trees and learn from one another
That sounds wonderful. Perhaps this generation needs this in a real way. not in commercials and fashion but in action.
it does sound like an attractive idea. But we are all so far away, and now the Corona mixed into all this mess. We are forced to explore ourselves from within, it seems. Ah... the neverending story 🔁
Yahh
I cannot tell how much surprised and happy I'm by your comment, because I said to myself the same exact words while I was hearing J enquirig the topic.
That would be amazing
I used to attend his lectures in this very venue, JJ School of Art during 1960s ,yes 1960s.. Happy to hear and see him again.
How old are you now sir?
@morisd5066 probably in late 60s or 70s
@@bryanmack7463 70's or even 80's. We're talking potentially 60 years ago here, and I'd assume he'd be at least in his 20's when these lectures took place as I don't think many children would be interested in this.
Sexuality has become so important because we need it as a distraction and not just for procreation. There’s a reason why the old folks used to say that too much masturbation will make you blind; blind to what is going on around you. I have heard sexuality has the potential for empowering us spiritually, but we’re probably still too immature for that kind of power.
well said
Sexuality gets in the way of spirituality. It is a lowly physical instinct.
@@FatalMatter-sz6gs looks like somebody ain't never had good sex before homie. like goood good, not a brief dopamine hit at the end type good. Sex is a spiritual experience if u doing it right, and like meditation it takes practice. And FYI unless you're a Master how would you know what gets in the way of real spirituality?
I love the sound of his voice, not only the combination of British and Indian accents, but the passion in his words. In order to better understand people like this, please try to understand the state of mind where they exist. If you cannot reach out for his words, each word, you will not understand. He is not giving an answer to the question, but he is giving you ways to deal with it, ways to understand it. Some of his words are as smooth as butter, while other are sharp, with barbed edges and they are meant to go in and stay.
He is so compassionate, so kind. I can hear his voice when I read his writings.
Thank you.
Larry you are matured and aware being. Cheers
Absolutely! I wonder how many people can understand his talks. each every talk is just mind blowing!
Larry Reynolds Right? My very first reaction was, that voice. What lovely Kadence❤️
This person gets the speakers words. 👏
He's not in any state of mind. Hes out of it.
I am homosexual and I understand and I take the responsibility of loving myself and who I am very seriously. I also acknowledge that others might try to distract me from my responsibility, but no matter what I must stay focused and fulfill my promise and my birth right at love. My “desire” for the same sex is more than a desire. It is a condition that must be met for my own existence, part of my self fulfillment, my promise, and my responsibility to loving myself. It is all part of my pursuit of happiness.
Well done my brother was homosexual but it was at a time when it was a criminal offence. We loved Paulie we all accepted his sexuality yet he could not love himself when society is disgusted it’s hard to love yourself. He died by suicide from a 150ft. Bridge our hearts are still shattered we miss him so much.
@@annewhite9850 I'm so sorry for your loss! 😔 I bet he was an amazing (young) man and I hope that his soul is now experiencing the peace it deserves 💖
Your writing is just beautiful
There are beautiful people. Beautiful men and beautiful women. If one is sensitive to beauty, one will see the beauty in both men and women. It’s natural isn’t it? There is no fundamental difference between homosexuality and heterosexually. But there is a difference between desire and sensitivity. The latter one is much profound as a problem and brought actually harm to the world. Not the first question.
I am been living and loving as same gender loving man since i have been 18, and I am 34 years old now !!!! The deeper I get into a state of self love and self acceptance i find myself no longer requiring the experience. Whenever you are on the journey embrace yourself !!!!!Love is all their is !!
His message is incredibly deep. Why is sexuality so important? He is not saying it is not important, clearly it is, this is a fact, but other things, too, are obfuscated by its importance. This is his message. The message is to focus on many different things and to not let desire of one specific thing, or the conception of yourself as a particular system of desire, be at the expense of other things. To be able to see the beauty of the mountain, and to just have it as that, and to let it go in due time. To be with another is human, and to desire is human, you want it, you want to be a part of it, you wish it was within you for some reason, perhaps a very important reason. There is no magical answer. There is only the being of it. Pain is not the way. Oppression is not the way. The way is through lived experience and to never let the beauty of life be sabotaged.
very well said, my guy. and ironically, the fact that there is no magical answer is itself a magical answer. a mystery that unfolds ever further that provides opportunities for us to ask, "why?"
Thank you for the summary.
sexuality is the essence of our identity. It defines us.
Hats off to you for this message that is so well written and well explained.
Blessings 🌸🌺💕🍀💜⭐️🌸💕🌺💜
So beautifully put
I love how he puts no judgment on sexuality. It is just a fact. After winter comes spring.
Xtra Delite OK but he explains the birth of desire, and that there is no desire if you don’t identify with the thoughts about sensations. (Sensations are not desire, sensation is sensation). When that happens, you are just left with healthy, thought-less sensations, which are only a bodily response to our sense perception.
So, in that state; would homosexuals experience desire?
yes but he knew nothing of sacred sexuality
Louis van Zyl he knew all about that....
@@MrMakingwavesmedia he knew that. Thats why he didn't judge any of the sexuality because they are sacred.
Because sex is a natural thing and homosexuals are a fact
i wanna hug him and at the same time talk him for years.
He's so important, in present and futute
your desire :)
@@shailenderpratap4507 No outsourcing the responsibility...like
"When thought assumes authority over the sensation, desire is born "♥️
You were listening 🤌🔥. Authority is illusory.
So we can wait it goes away.. doing it multiple times may help us in realizing this.
What do you think ?
With attention, the gap will become apparent and with disciplined observation the gap will widen until it becomes far less desire and far more just appreciation of the sensation, not to mention all that work to acquire will suddenly seem so unnecessary. TRUE FREEDOM. He was the pre-eminent teacher, a treasure, a most precious gift to us all.
For those who have taken authority as truth instead of truth as authority !¡
I have listened to LOT of gurus and from what I understand, THERE ARE NO PROBLEMS IN THIS WORLD. We only make them problems in our brains. We should just give up and BE instead of making up problems.
If there are no problems in this world then what do you say of gruesome murder? Or torture. Or millions dying in wars. You're a fool with no respect for life
Absolutely 🙏🌸
I think that's quite misleading. Pseudo gurus advocate that. The world is rife with problems, and only through progressively understanding the causes and mechanisms behind it can one come to see what problems we subjectively create and what objective problems we are already embedded in.
If you have cancer, for example, it's not a problem, it's something you should take care of if you don't want to die, but it's not a problem, it is what it is, when you put the machinery of thought to work and compare yourself with someone else who doesn't have it, when you wonder why this happens to you, when you remember when you were healthy, when you imagine a bleak future, then you make a problem of it,and it is not something innocuous, since when doing a problem you energetically generate negativity that will affect your condition
@@lokayatavishwam9594 I think what they're trying to say is the mechanisms existing in the first place IS the problem. The problems we face as a collective are problems of the heart, not external problems.
This man was just so stunningly intelligent. What a world if everyone would understand.
Right here he does poorly. He reveals much personality (ego) here. Where's the master?!? Listen....
He was intelligent because he was enlightened. The world is not because they don't try to follow that path.
@@AZ-mq8oi Everyone has a sense of self. Revealing it is not inherently bad. Actually, the notion that one must conceal their sense of self is extreme. No ego and egotistical are harmful extremes similar to suppression and overindulgence.
@@michaelharbach1987 the fully developed sage is light as a feather. Ready to speak truth sometimes mercifully, sometimes unmercifully. There's no fear in such an individual for the individual is truly one and cannot be controlled by any external influence. So you will hear the truth from such an individual.
K didn't speak the truth because he wasn't thoroughly integrated. He himself was still struggling with some area and as a result couldn't speak the truth even if he wanted to.
@@AZ-mq8oi I don't know who polluted your mind into thinking that a person must have an infinite supply of grace & patience in order to be able to speak the truth or to have integrity. Perfection is an unrealistic, extreme ideal that throws off a person's balance.
Humans are mammalian organisms. All organisms are products of the internal and external influences that they experience over the period of their lifetime. You make it sound like there are humans with magical powers, which is merely a pleasant delusion.
In reality, all humans are vastly ignorant and they make mistakes on a daily basis. Any intellectually humble human will have already discovered these truths about themselves.
Can a human take control over their consciousness in order to better govern their own behavior? Yes, but this is only possible in cases where the internal and external influences have permitted it, and these human are still being influenced by internal and external forces. These people do have greater control over how they process the sensory inputs that bubble up to their consciousness, but even that very fact implies that internal and external forces are at play.
When a 90 years old trembling, mumbling man, with a will to help people with their doubts stops and says "Are you working as the speaker is working or are you just listening?"
@Debra Charles Thank you.
@Debra Charles his comment was praise not negative....re-read and think.....gaurav thakur considers the question as profound, and so do I.
@Debra Charles How is that remark relevant to the comment above? Talking about not holding a candle to another human being would seem to be exceedingly un-Krishna-Murdi-like! Furthermore, it seems to me that you have misconstrued the comment to which you're ostensibly responding.
"Learning is discipline, not conformity." What a closure!
I felt that deeply too.
Yes, beautiful is it not?
The word disciple is taken from the word discipline.
Explain it, it only arises doubts…
@@shakey3306 When we are asked to conform to a perticular pattern that we think brings discipline, it only suppresses one's freedom and breeds fear. Whereas in learning about oneself and the structure of the mind, while its free of struggles and fears, it brings about its own discipline, which has nothing to do with conformity
Accept the fact & move on. This is what the master says.
I have a question...what does moving on mean...better still. What is the process of moving on
@@adriandeutrom9092 it means that just accept the fact that homosexuality exist and you have to accept it. then don't obsess with that topic and go to think to most important things
I hear what he says...but I don't know what you are trying to tell me ...
You are not being very clear in your msg
Who's master? Idolizing any human being isn't acceptable.
I am 51 now and would never ever ever ever understand what he is talking about. I am very happy I've immigrated to USA, learned English and at very different state of mind, so I am able to understand what he is talking about. Very wise man. Happy to find him.
So adorable. What a gorgeous human being :-)
Why? Because he agrees with you? Seek truth!
Did you ever meet him?
nkastropil I wouldn’t say Krishna the destroyer is adorable hahaha but hey maybe ?
It takes one to know one 😊
Anyone else seeing the statement confirmed? Be self aware. If she'd put that comment under any other of his videos people wouldnt act like that but agree what a nice man he was. But under this one its being associated differently. Coverted hostility although no one knows if her statement was refering to the subject. Which demobstrates and confirms what Krisgnamurti said, such an oversensibility was assigned to this particular subject, what exaggerated priority we give it and which vast power it has over our emotion, responses and thoughts.
Moral of the video "Understand the gap between sensation and thoughts. Control your thoughts, reduce your thoughts, because thoughts leads to desire. Can we all agree, we cannot keep our mind shut like keeping our mouth shut?"
I am listening him first time, I don’t have words, thank you😭
In addition to answering the questions he also shows the way how to deal with all those questions which are there at present / will arise tomorrow in your mind , independently.
For those who are saying that he skipped homosexuality, here is my understanding :
You should listen to him again. There is only one truth he speaks about. Images !
he started with sexuality (what is ! doesn't matter what kind - went to social conditioning (religions, austerity, etc)-then to desire through beauty explaining the relationship between sensation and thought and ended with the possibility of separation between the two (reality and it's images).
Much love !
Can u explain it elaborately, thankyou
Separation between the two meaning that there is no identification from the thoughts. Sensations are reality (correct, normal, healthy). Then thoughts pop in the head if the mind is conditioned.
But if you ignore the thoughts about sensations, and the images that the thoughts create, there is no identification. You are just left with the natural sensations. And then you are not taken over by the sensations.
Note that the “images” here, are the “mind made reality of the world”; the “labels”. They are not real.
The mind can create a virtual reality of everything, which means that if you are identified with your mind, you will see the world in a way that it is not. But you ARE NOT YOUR MIND.
The sensations are conditioned to good or bad by thoughts or system of thoughts, A life by default seeks sensations and captures the sensations as snap shots. These snap shots are not complete, these are quantised bits and pieces. Here an image or snapshot of beautiful image of man or woman is overtaken by thoughts. Thoughts takes authority over it and rejects all other things which are connected to the snapshot of the beauty. Over the time it demands its permanence, it reinforces itself and becomes a desire & attaches to the life. Suffering is rejecting the connectivity of precedence & consequence of sensation(the sensation is already a dead one), and demanding the snapshot again n again. The demand itself is suffering, & there is scarcity & social restriction/opposition is add on to it.
@@Fabio6164 Thank you 🙏
He is quite normal spiritual being. Leadbeater was also loving men sexually. Some say it comes from the time in lemuria
Everything this being engages through these talks is so real,simple in the journey of enquiry,l feel more confident.
"When the thought assumes the authority over sensation desire is born. Can sensation and thought be kept apart?..." Thank you, now I have found my own room in the space between sensation and thought.
No thoughts, no desire and only sensations…Interesting isn’t it.
He is like master oogway.....
Ya i was thinking I have seen him some where
not like...He IS Oogway!
💯
Thank you J. Krishnamurti for this most wonderful talk. I have learned much about myself, from listening to this. My mind, seeing, perception, thoughts and desires. I am very grateful that this has been made and shared with us 🙏🏾
This man embodies everything beautiful in the human race despite the fact many of us have destroyed ,killed ,bombed or inflicted pain on each other and all living things , there is still hope ,love and kindness somewhere there like a single flower sticking out of the concrete .
Another booby.
in my native culture they are called "two spirited",meaning they have the energy from both sexes.and they are honored and welcomed and are the ones who became the medicine men and women.
And what is your native culture?
north american aboriginal natives of canada and america.
I am a two spirited person . Do you have a name for people like me in your culture?
yes..my brother my sister..in spirits..
TheBigBang your comment is a bit naive. There is no one Native Culture. Native Americans were culturally diverse from tribe to tribe. There were tribes who had the view as you say but generally it was not directed at homosexuals it was a view of people. who were born hermaphroditic. The were considered blessed with two spirits. And they were in some tribes put in charge of spiritual things and also tending to the children
Religion is the main cause for the misunderstanding of homosexuality.
Great minds put extraordinarily difficult and complex issues into a simple statement... "the source of peril in human experience is the relationship with desire (in all its forms...)"... fantastically simple and deep.... GC
no it's even simpler why judge others who are not you? x
27:15 Can sensation and thought be kept apart?? What a beautiful question! How to keep apart the fact from the meaning which that fact has!! Enquiry is Krishnamurty's way! He was always able to create the right question in the right moment!! but very few heard these questions, and fewer answered, fewer enquired into it deeply. This is just a magical question! It can make enlightenment happen!!
Yoga will help you in keeping thoughts and sensations aparts. That's the meaning of yoga itself.
Yes it will bring about enlightenment, because enlightenment is dis-identification with thoughts. What identifies with thoughts , is consciousness. When identification (or incarnation) takes place, it is a process of which we are unaware. So to reverse it, you bring awareness to it. This is the purpose of spiritual teaching. All you are left with then are sensations. Sensations are not desire, they are just the bodily expression of a sense perception. Therefore, in that state, is there homosexuality........ ? And is there not something else that one recovers....?
@@anantsaini What is Yoga?
The lovely thing is that sensation and thought need not be kept apart, if one recognizes (in the moment after) that that has happened, and then dissociate the chain at that point. That is why attention is needed, to notice when this happens. With enough attention, one might catch the gap between sensation and thought and thus avoid the identification, but if not, no worries. Just dissociate the two after the fact. Recognizing there is a gap between sensation and thought is already the paradigm shift. Bhagavad-Gita 2.62-3.
Jiddu is and was thee Master ,the ultimate sage.28.56 A tear runs down his left eye when he talks of beauty and mans destruction of the world.The truth is moving.
no words to describe the beauty and awareness of this being! Thank you
♡
@@claritytruth445 yes namaste from india
Very true bro .he is kind loving beautiful human being
Being present now is the gap between sensation and thought. Knowing the "deeper I", pure awareness. Bliss.
You keep doing that long enough and you will just become a more sophisticated (complicated) version of an automaton. Must listen...
@tai chi goombah Does that mean we should be trying not to feel desire or aversion? It seems like those things are an essential part of us with good reason to exist.
@tai chi goombah But they are fundamental to us. Or how do we know who we desire?
@tai chi goombah That was too circular. I think you're only saying that we shouldn't be too extreme in desire or aversion which is a commonplace, although not always something we do. But if you are saying transcend desire and aversion then the responsibility weighs on you to describe why to do that and how, because that is something altogether out of the world of the ordinary and the human mind.
Is the false ego separate to the real ego?
He's not willing to be judged on this issue.
He keeps AVOIDING if it's morally or spiritually negative.
Doesn't say zip except for "why does sexuality have to be such a big topic."
You want a conclusion, but haven't got the patience to listen, can't hear anyone if you don't listen.
They should have asked the question differently. Instead of "what about homo-ness" which I guess is what prompted the "yea, what about it?" retort, it should have been something like: "why does the downfall of every civilization include rampant homosexuality"?
I think he does in a way.
He started with homosexuality in the question as a gateway into the motive behind it, which is behind almost every human thought and action. That which is Desire.
He determined that Desire is unseperable from life. It is the result of the combination of 2 things - sensation and thought.
Since desire is a fact of life so is sexuality and thus homosexuality or heterosexuality as sub titles of sexuality are too.
Religious, moral and social judgement are all there in the effort to separate existence from desire. An impossible task. J. K. Seems to say its a waste of energy and time to fight facts.
That being said, he also noted the fact that our modern society is extremely over exposed to sexuality and that can be a problem because although sexuality has to do with the fact of desire, all life isn't Just sexuality.
There is so much more. So instead of banning a natural process maybe it will be more productive to invest energy and thought into other things too. Sexuality has its place but it doesn't have to be all over the place.
I hope I make some sense.
Krishnamurti is not afraid of being judged at all, it takes awhile to understand him sometimes and some people never do.
Always love Jiddu's perception of a concept. Lovely. Why should desire cloud our purpose? :) Amazing.
Krishnamurti…..One who's words are so insightfully Right... .. Always nurturing and giving as the sun in the sky and clean air breathed
Good point about the need to avoid the extremes of austerity and over-indulgence!
Dare we call it "the middle way"?
@@PigBenis4U Why not? The only problem is that in English, the word middle has a whiff of mediocrity about it as in middle of the road music. I was on a plane from Amsterdam to Jakarta via the Middle East, and was struck by two exemplars of extreme lifestyles/ideologies sitting beside one another: a Scandinavian lady wearing the tightest hot pants imaginable and a niqab-clad Saudi whose only visible body part were her Bambi-like eyes. They literally looked worlds apart but had one thing in common: extremity.
@@FrankieParadiso4evah Perhaps the better word is "balance"
If i got it right, austerity was not one of the extremes.
Yes it was.
What a beautiful sight to behold!! J Krishnamurti disseminating wisdom under an old tree in a green setting. ❤️
I was at that talk in Ojai, love this man wisdom
You bought the tape after the talk?
Wow 😯
I live in the next town. I want to go visit there.
Best from Utah! ❤
Krishnamurti was one of my first gurus. He helped disabuse me of any notions about spiritual superiority. Keeping in mind that all gurus must tailor their lessons to the capacities of the audience, so when I hear him suggesting that heterosexuality and homosexuality are "facts," I have to smile 😁
No tailoring to anyone else. The other is you. It’s difficult to understand a fact if you come to a conclusion
Krishnamurti is such an outstanding teacher, one to be remembered trough the ages!
yeah… however… this guy travelled 2000 miles or km to hear j. answer and i think this one turned out to be a little vague… i am glad i am 50 years old now and i do not need an answer on this Q. anymore… for all those gals and guys who need an answer here is mine: love is love. and it starts with loving yourself. if you truely love yourself you will find love for EVERYTHING and EVERYONE… bless you all. love
His answer is always to go within and beyond the appearance of things, and understand that many conflicts can be solved by going beyond the bonds of appearance.
Sex is not just a part of life, it is the very cause of life. It also connects people on the mental, emotional and physical levels, on all levels. And it engages all the senses, it is not only made important but it simply is.
Yeah. You make only sex the important part.
And leave all the other far more important aspects of life. Like meditation. Love. Hatred. Divisive activity.
Your own turmoil.
Why not give them the due importance they deserve too?
Why only give sex the importance?
That's clearly something to do with your greed. And not with sex in itself.
It's a clinging that you have, that's the problem. And causes the mischief. Not sex itself.
But the attachment you form towards it's pleasure. And the misery it causes in the long run.
Nonsense ... what about relations with your son daughter friends parents ... there are far more important things to do in life for oneself and people around other than rubbing fellow human just as stupid or ust oneself for that matter 😂
Going through what you already know, raising you up at bodhi with bodhi, your potential, at the root - already clear, cunning skillful - He is a true bodhisattva fighting a war right for all to see - fearless. And down to us teaching us ourselves. To see this process is a great gift as it is not common to see such a regular person glowing with the simplicity of bodhi light. He comes to us as one of us because he is and teaches as one of us might teach ourselves ourselves out of not compassion, but truth, and why not. Thank you for keeping these videos and transmissions available 👁👂👃👅 🖐 🧠 all the thieves cut down to their root with truth. Again thank you.
Perception, watchfulness, clarity, learning and discipline. Spend energy on having these. Message for me from this lecture.
It is so pleasant and nice to live a pure celebate life. It helps the soul to discover itself and to really love the self and others on a very different and much deeper level.
It is liberation from the torment of craving
@@BernieHollandMusic but you still craving for CZcams😐
Hahaha Joke of the century
Also will reduce the world population!
Never met a religious person that I could trust or understand. We should make Muslims listen to this lecture...especially their men.
Desire..Man's propensity to merge with the object of attraction..until his/her 'subjectiveness' is dissolved. Beauty..The reflection of the infinite captured in the finite.
The boy and minute 28 is really paying attention. Adorable and I feel so proud of him for being interested in this at such a young age.
So well-said, so simple, and yet so profound....
@25:40 he is explaining the Dependent Origination (12 steps) of Buddha’s teachings. How the five senses operate based on their specific sensations, followed by a craving for that particular sense object etc The kind of thirst that was there in the 1960-80s, to find answers to these types of questions are there again right now in the 21st century. We are blessed though....because the answers are already there when spiritual gurus who lived before explained them clearly. We just have to search..thanks to the www, it is so much easier. Thank you for these amazing talks by great Krishnamurti.
You are making reference to the 12 linked chain of causation as expounded in the Kejoyu Chapter of the Lotus Sutra which teaches that ignorance is the root of all suffering
I've never been alive during his time on the earth but he was wise beyond words. Yes, he does not give you any answers, you'll need to figure out them for yourself (and gives you time to do so while he speaks). He does give you (proper) perception which is worth way more than just an aswer.
Also, he warns people that the truth is disturbing if it does not conform to their frame of reality. Out of experience, I feel that that certainly is the case by reflecting on my own thoughts and behaviours and of others.
Woww this just blew my mind away! ❤️
Our minds are already blown away by consumerism. Practicing silence in a quiet setting on a continuing basis will slow down that tricky mind.
How so very slow the life and world were in 80s. So is dear J.K.
A deep and thoughtful man. Humble.
What I loved about him is that he never showed judgment to anything. Religion? Sexuality? He just stated facts.
You can genuinely be lifted by something, Sensation, and not want it, need it, possess it😊 that's the best, you're loving it for what it is, whatever it is, you're not Striving to Have.
It’s not about “not wanting”, it’s about understanding “what is”. If u see beauty and want it, it is a fact, don’t suppress it
A gap between sensation and thought, this is the question.
BRILLIANT!
JK is quite aware that the question was asked not to go into it, but to be used as "JK said it, so I too will say it because I do not have the energy necessary to go into it." JK again asks the listener if they, like the speaker are devoted to finding another way of living. The question asked is part and parcel to the current way man lives and acts, not something new, different. And if the questioner knew JK and his life long work, they most likely would have known his response to the question...i am not saying the questioner hurt JK's feelings, but they may have confirmed his concern that folks were not taking his work to further it, but to have acquired a guru to tell them how to be. There is no textbook answer to why one finds joy with the same sex or opposite. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. The sensation of beauty sparks thought to want that again, and so starts the wheels of desire to fulfill that percieved "need". The quest for a label is just a quest for a label. I am xyz therefore please look at me as xyz. And since I'm xyz then here are the boundaries xyz must function within. Just a bunch of easy rubbish with no deep, no content at all. Same old stuff for centuries...rinse and repeat.
Scott Cutrell I love it- true true
excellent
You summarise deepest philosophies of Buddhism .
human go incarnation life death cycle continues because sensation to enjoy more
Mr JK; to whom it may concern.
I have been aware of the man teaching for about 45 years or so I'm 67 year old. As then when I was prepared to to listen and learn at a young age 22. He present his knowledge in way to complex matter. Even now after all these years? Still talks above the average person but I have become a student of life and lesson to him from time to time.
Twazzz ....very exciting --I woke up at the end when he fell silent---and the sun came over the horizon--and and and and and and....
Krishnamurti nailed it on the head. We are all just as God/Goddess created us to be in perfection
Why does this end before he concludes? I very much enjoy hearing jiddu speak because how he seems to go off point just to put another light on the subject. I would very much like to hear the ending, thank you.
Perhaps the sensation begins to lose its authenticity once thought begins to encapsulate it and desire ensues .. perhaps the original sensation morphs into something other once desire becomes attached ….
One can only guide you to truth but it's entirely up to the individual to see. This man's wisdom and knowledge is indescribable ... he has also stated words are not enough...live by it and you'll see
so clear and simple.., and then..beauty is seen.
:-)
Thanks for sharing to all.
Dreaming is good but not if you want to wake up.
@@AZ-mq8oi 'dreaming'..is not seeing, as is..'wanting to wake up'.
I don't feel the need to even value that, how could I and with..what?
:-)
Does anyone know these moments when your whole body starts to tickle when you "stop to identify" with what you are currently in (sensations and thoughts) and have this deep feeling of "lightness and clarrity"? Hearing these sounds and seeing these images, somehow kicked me in there.
Or am i just plain weird?
You are pure consciousness in those moments. Stay there. That is the place enlightened spiritual teachers speak of.
You connected with the place from where Mr.K was talking from. Very few are fortunate enough to drink from his well.
hans - yes you are plain weird. spiritual madness (re Muktanada) is real. Ramana Maharshi likened it to being gripped in the jaws of a tiger. Struggle, and the tiger bites harder. He will never release you - in this life. better to have never started the journey. But! In some life or other, you must. There's no escape. The Creator will eventually draw you to his loving side knowing you don't know what's good for you, yet, and because you and He are one in reality .... Mad huh? The lightness and clarity are qualities of awareness at the Soul body or fourth level. You will dwell there more and more as you identify at the fourth level - causes automatic energy resonation (tingle) down into physical body via etheric body. Look it up.
@@TheFossie12 So true, however, I must disagree on something, this blessed opening of the channel can, and often does, get blocked by many and diverse dark forces in this predatory universe. So, it´s better to cherish and keep such treasures well protected from them with constant vigilance cause it´s the never ending battle of light and darkness which is itself a part of the balance of the very universe itself.
@Jo Alex Sg - Yes! Particularly at this time in evolution of Mankind. We appear to be in the final stage of an evolutionary wave and every entity good and bad is rushing to get on board or interfere in the transition. Inhabiting a new, less dense and less predatory environment has to be earned by increased awareness; ie more gold in the golden soul body. But you're dead right about the dark side - called the 'left hand path'. They are very determined to steal light energy from those who have earned it through discipline and self-lessness. So it makes us 'spiritual warriors' in a sense. Nothing new, as above so below. My original and only living teacher, an old man then but very advanced esotericist, taught his method of daily 'spiritual shower bath'. (irradiation) Physical/mental focussed breathing in golden-energy through the top of the head, holding it briefly at the diaphram, then exhaling slowly out, visualising gold through all parts of ones body and even into the surrounding environment, family friends, pets - anywhere. Becomes more potent with practice. Can heal - all sorts. Golden soul-body energy is the key. This method blasts away neg. waste energy build-up. The leaching-on of low types to drain off your energies cannot happen if you identify as your S.Self at the soul (or 4th level) body. They bounce off. But if you do attract 'cling-ons', the 10 min daily 'shower bath' dissolves them - plus prayer
Listen to the cords of silence, spread love and care to your nearby friends and family… it would take time, but I trust we can find a way out and walk a blessing path…
Such a powerful speaker!
JK, does not give a direct answer because his focus is on the process not the outcome of thought, rigidity etc. meaning put the effort to inquire and be aware of the inner sensation-thought-desire transformation.
One can replace the topic with other and you will get similar response --- INQUIRE
22:30 begins the process of how desire is born.
My personal notes/reflection/comment:
There is the object which is percieved by the sense organs, then there is a sensation experienced in the body. Up to here, everything is neutral and natural. Then, there is a thought that arises about that sensation and that object: A judgement (that is pretty, that is ugly, that is...); a subject (I like it, I don't like it). That subject then entertains those thoughts and take action through the body (goes into the store, touches he dress, feels the dress, tries it on) and translate the thought about the object to the subject (the I) possessing that object (puts the dress on "how beautiful I look"). Then desire (and attachment to the object) is born.
The key, then, is not to identify with the object (people, places, things, events, situations).
Susy García correct.
And the key to it, is to bring awareness to the process.
Identification only takes place when there is no awareness of it. If there is awareness of the process, there is no identification.
All you are then left with, is the sensation. Which is just sensation, healthy, natural, normal. You can find someone of the same gender beautiful, and the seeing of him/her creates a sensation, and so? Can it just end there? Of course it can.
Bringing awareness to the process brings about the reversal of identification, that is to say, did-identification with the thoughts about sensations. This is the process of awakening. Therefore, gayness is a gift, since the dis-identification process brings you enlightenment. Then it is interesting to find a natural pull towards the opposite sex, but not a compulsive one, not an egoic attraction. A natural pull.
“Why have humans given importance to sexuality?”
It's a controlling thing .
Exactly my thought
We have because it is the only thing that ensures continuity. It comes from the desire to let our genes live after we are gone . In fact most animals are more concerned about sex and mating rights than us . They fight to death to achieve the same thing .
perhaps it is a running away from the daily problems. At the time of sex there is the feel of freedom from these daily problems
Because we evolved that way. It is important to the species for obvious reasons. If the attending pleasurable release of chemicals and hormones did not evolve with our breeding patterns I doubt if it would be as signifcant to us.
Peace Love Equality.
Live And Let Live.
I love, love, love J. Krish.
I believe His teachings served his time very appropriately and are STILL very impactful personally. However, his teaching style maybe somewhat outdated while language and the collective perspective on the contents of life have consciously developed. I believe this response would not resonate as effectively Now as it did in the 70’s.
But because of his timelessness and beingness, his talks will always be impactful in some way if you listen with no predeposition and inquiry, from my experience.
That’s just my perspective though, what do you guys think?
Honestly speaking it seemed he spoke all around the topic while throwing out unrelated tidbits. This is a thoughtful individual but whether he conveyed his thoughts with clarity is questionable to me. I thought his affect, his manner, was a little mysterious and melancholy.
The space between thought and sensation wouldn't have to be so small if it weren't for our upbringing.
Wait, I'm doing it again! 🧐
I’ve noticed that he doesn’t use I to refer himself but instead uses “the speaker” to denote himself.such thought provoking.
The questions that I'm left enquiring into: "How can one live on this earth without causing harm or destruction to its beauty," and "Is beauty actually a sensation?" If beauty is truly a sensation that we should not desire via connection with our thoughts, we are left to simply experience and enjoy it, not to feel the urge to possess or preserve it either way.
Or, the unification of the true Self that accompanies disassociation with the body/mind erases the very question (regarding homosexuality) itself. You cannot either preserve or destroy yourself (or anything else) in the end, since we are, essentially, all parts of the same whole.
(Side note: Philosophically, individual salvation/damnation could only come through the grace/judgment of a separate, higher being which exists distinctly from the physical universe.
Well, if the conditioned stories / mind are not the true self, they can be transcended (through awareness).And so, since if they are needed for desire to be born; then the absence of these stories would mean that there would be no desire.
Where does sexual attraction go if there is no desire?
Not about homosexuality, but about desire. You know. Ive been into the yogic/buddhist philosophies for a while. And its true. Desire is there, but a part in us can rise above it. You will feel your ego play up at times, and you will realise the ego is just an energy, an impulse from the body. If you learn your stuff, you will also learn how to channel this energy back into the ground. Its very valuable to learn. Depression is desire. Stealing is desire. Addiction is desire. Sometimes even personal feelings of insecurity is desire. It is all "i want..." and "i wish i was...." and in the end it is all "I, me, ego". reflect on this. this will help you in your life, even if youre not all aboit the spirituality. it is a wisdom... listen to the man!
At last a comment full of consciousness and bravery. The ego creates desire…So it also creates homosexuality. Transcending the ego means transcending sexuality. Plain and simple.
Yes and no.
Casting away desire, ego etc is very Christian in fact.
There is nothing wrong with desire and ego. What is Important is to keep them from taking control of one's time thought and energy. Keeping the balance and avoiding the extremes that require excessive energy and time spending.
@@Fabio6164 ego doesn't create either desir or homosexuality. Ego is the expression of one's illusion of being an "individual"
Desire is the result of sensation and thought. You can't eliminate desire. Because to eliminate something you have to desire to eliminate it. On the other hand you can very well inhibit desire, but that is worse than letting it express it self naturally.
Desire arises out of identification with thoughts: that’s ego.
He faced the question of sexuality head on and seriously without trivialising.
Acceptance of fact liberates from fact.The fact will not follow u ,then
He said just what he started off saying...a fact isn't disputed so he's not going to take sides...just accept homosexuality the same as heterosexuality ....nice, easy way out..without offending anyone....
Great message I guess humanity just love to find conflict in facts or things that are just part nature…
Listening to Jiddu Krishnamurti is a work
Live & let live & try minding YOUR own business, if it isn't for you never mind dictating lifestyles to others, I hope this helps!!!!!
Yes God has intervened at the end with captions, which in a way leaves you to form your own thoughts. Probably that is the understanding.
What a Man ❤ Thankyou ❤ one love, lotsa pieces ❤🎉 hugs guys
I chose the woman who is my wife with little or not sexual interest. I noticed that she grew and learned more around me than anyone I had met to date. It seemed that choosing between a) Having the most sexual chemistry with someone whom I often did not connect as much with in my psychological values or b) Both of us becoming more because of the relationship that learning was more important. As I now move towards separation it is again not about sex, but because the learning and growing has slowed down significantly and I believe we will both grow more in new situations.
even before "proper" religion came way before any of them there were a plethora of sexuality and they all covered and erased it and if they show their true sexuality they are not programed to think they are not valid. when in reality it's as simple as being a fact. conflicts arise from separating what we are all the same- human. just a fact.
Wow... This was so deep... He truly is a wise master.
He was asking them again and again about "Should i go into all this ", he knew that the answer is not what the people expected because people re afraid of truth.
Thank you
So no answer is the best answer.
Firmness in th words even when his hands are shivering is the sign of of a Mahatma who has stubborn and sharp words. He is not influenced by any theory but assembles pure logic.
Keep to the prime thoughts to experience complex feelings and the body will keep up until the next conflict.
When there are no more conflicts, then one is a master of this and one moves on... {the 4th dimension}.
I wish my mother can hear his explanation. She is all I've got and I love her unconditionally. She loves me with all her heart too. But been homosexual, it's a fact she simply can not accept. Oh do I ever wish she can hear his explanation.
Be proud of who you are and not what others want you to be. It is your identity not others. I have respect for those who live their authentic life. Stay true to yourself.
Save this video somewhere,extract it,keep it and show her whenever she's ready ❤️
A great man .I love him
I love watching such a peaceful discussion with the wild nature background behind
a venerable kind man. its only when one is there one realizes how few there are.