The Easterlings and The Haradrim - What was the difference?
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- čas přidán 6. 06. 2024
- In this video, we compare the Easterlings and the Haradrim, the long-time enemies of the Free Peoples. How did they compare? How did they differ? And how were they perceived by their enemies?
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Asking this question got Pippin put in diversity training
Fool of a Took! I suppose anyone who isn't a Hobbit looks the same to you! If you hadn't spent all your time in Rivendell chasing birds through the trees you might know something of the vast and varied peoples of this Middle Earth!
Lmaoooo
Not only that but he will be denied second breakfast for the rest of his life
The Wain rider Easterlings are to my mind are inspired or based on Turks or Mongols. Brutal, cruel, war like based around horses and great slave armies and control large areas that they are not native to.
The Harad are either Arabs or Indians, I suspect Indian inspired.
@@fightforaglobalfirstamendm5617 harad is literally inspired by africa, even the shape. So north african and some sub saharan clans/groups
I remember hearing that Tolkien had decided to write about the history of the Easterlings shortly before his death. If true, that is a shame, because I would love to know more about their history and see them as more than just the bad guys.
Really?!?!
There’s precious little written about the East in Middle Earth. A few lines about the Men out there being firmly under Sauron’s sway, and that that’s where the Blue Wizards did whatever they did and then that’s about it.
If this is true then it's pretty clear he died before he could finish it or even get around to it
you will never hear anything good about the Easterlings from the priests of ancient Egypt or today's West (Tolkien), it's simply metaphysically impossible🙃
maybe because when he wrote it it was popular to be racist and by the time of his death that viewpoint was starting to change. It was fairly weird to have the "none whites" purely as evil. Tolkien wasn't dumb he wanted to cement a legacy and of course fixing such things would have helped him, as someone of partial middle eastern descent It just cannot be ignored and feel weird reading it with all the similarities between middle earth and our earth that the easternlings being evil was just a viewpoint of a racist british man, his viewpoint may have changed later on, who knows, but truth of the matter is that when he wrote LOTR he definitely believed that.
I always assumed that Tolkien patterned the Easterlings vaguely based on the Huns (Xiongnu) & Mongols , and the Haradrim (including the Corsairs of Umbar) being akin to the Barbary Pirates being based on Arabs & Berbers, and the Far Haradrim being Sub-Saharan African peoples.
Generally I think this is spot on. They aren't specifically anything, yet vaguely many things
It’s why I never understood why people made a big deal about black people in lord of the rings because I always figured Haradrim covered that base
@@noonefromnowhere7945 Because just like in the recent past, black people would be an extreme minority in the events of the lord of the rings. North Africa is not some subsaharan homeland, it is actually more levantine, visigothic, and semitic, then you have further more into the south, you crossing both the atlas mountain ranges and the massive saharan desert, then you find the subsaharan africans.
Tolkien would have noted the difference and their shared history with the Men of the West, with the Haradrim and the Easterlings having more history related with the Men of the West, Far Harad - Analog for Subsaharan africa, would have an extremely thin connection with the Men of the West.
@@noonefromnowhere7945 you want black people in LOTR? Make a convincing lore that justify their existence in the story. What we hate is forced inserts without any basis besides the woke agenda.
So basically, Tolkien considered sub-saharan Africans as "troll people (the men of far Harad)"?.....hmmm@@noonefromnowhere7945
Can you imagine what the Haradrim think of Gondor? Like to them Gondor is this tiny little place surrounded on all sides by it's enemies, and yet wins victory after victory even against their god, Sauron. After the war of the ring this must have been even more bewildering, that in a might makes right world, where numbers usually make might, the lesser force by far utterly defeats their enemies so thoroughly as to kill their god, and make near extinct an entire species that rivaled them.
Aragorn must have been viewed by the Haradrim in a similar light to how Sauron was thought of by the men of the west
I don’t think they’d be too shocked considering the previous millennia. The Haradrim had to have known both the strength of Númenor by the time of their mass enslavement and the strength of Gondor by the time of the Ship-kings until its slow burn decline as Gondor was whittled down after each invasion.
What are you talking about? Haradrims and Easterlings defeated Gondorians several times over the span of the TA. Though none of them completely destroyed Gondor, similar to the Gondorian invasions, they didn't result in any Kingdom (except Umbar) falling.
And You're comapring muskets and connons with better rifles and artillary. They were Numenoreans, they developed and got better tech and tacts during the second age, which they used in TA.
And I don't think so that Haradrim were shocked or anything.
Tolkien based off the books on Europe. Haradrim had been invaded and displaced by the 'good guys' in the early ages, like the Easterlings, so taking back the lands taken from them was victory enough for them. Sauron is just a catalyst.
Basically, colonialism, but justified as a lore.
Thank you for the video. It's important to remember that these are giant regions with all kinds of peoples, mostly unknown.
The issue is the ignorance about far away lands in the Gondorian and elvish source material we have access to.
I have the impression that the Haradrim were somewhat less corrupted by Sauron (and possibly Morgoth) than the Easterlings. A peace arrangement during the height of Gondor´s power meant that trade flowed between Gondor and Harad for a time, whereas no such cooperation with an Eastern polity is recorded in the appendices.
It´s also noteworthy that the Haradrim were assaulted and enslaved by the late Numénoreans, a fate from which the East was sparred. The fact that the ancestors of the Haradrim migrated away from the uttermost East could hint at an initial rejection of Morgoth´s cult. And I think it´s also implied that Sauron (and Morgoth, too) spent millenia in the East, entrenching his corruption there, making it the heartland of his Imperial ambitions after he fled Mordor.
All in all, I think the Easterlings are portrayed as the deadly archenemies of Gondor, whereas the relationship with the Haradrim is a little bit more complicated, due to the earlier exchanges between Men of the West and Southrons, and especially because of the colonization and mixing of peoples.
It also makes sense from a geographical perspective. While we admittantly know little of Harad, we do know that the area south of Mordor was very desolate and sparely populated. Many depictions place the bulk of the peoples' of Harad in coastal enclaves and in oases surrounded by desert. I think this is geographically reasonable if somewhat over-simplified.
If true, parts of Harad were probably isolated from Mordor, if only more so than the areas directly east. I'd also argue that the classic orcs we know from Mordor probably struggled in deserts. Limited day time cover and an orc's predilection for turning on others in times of stress sounds like a recipe for disaster in Harad. Mordor probably relied on men to do business with the south.
I agree with you. The Haradrim had reason to dislike the Gondorians because they were the descendants of Numenorean imperialists. But the Numenoreans never really went that far east, so the Easterlings aggression towards the west was entirely unwarranted. And we also know that after he was defeated, Sauron fled into the east, not the south.
@@Uncle_Fredthere is also Mûmakhan in Far Harad which is a fertile and jungle-gtown peninsula where the Mumakil are native too, that iirc was the homeland of Indur, a king of men who eventually got a ring of power from a dark prince (ofc it was sauron) and became a Ringwraith
I entirely agree. The Easterlings were being corrupted well before Sauron was, even by Morgoth from their very beginnings. By the time Sauron was the Dark Lord of Middle Earth, the Easterlings were already predisposed to the corrupt ideals he spouted. This largely played a role in why Sauron fled to the East when he was driven from Dol Guldur. The Haradhrim, on the other hand, were more inclined to ally with Sauron due to their hatred on Gondor and the Numenoreans from which Gondor came. While both the Numenoreans and Sauron initially enslaved the Haradhrim, as Sauron would eventually corrupt the Haradhrim, their hate for Gondor would become amplified and stoked by him. As Sauron became their God, I dont believe he ever had as much sway over them as he would have wanted.
@@21stcenturysquid what writings says this? In no way do i mean to say you are wrong, but I would love to read more about whatever this information is from.
Since you said you were interested in more comparison ideas, how about an analysis of the various groups of Umanyar and Moriquende? Green-elves, Grey-elves, coast elves, Silvan elves, barrel elves, oh my.
Khand might be an interesting hybrid between the two, a somewhat organised kingdom of easterlings, more civilized than their northern brethen due to contact with Harad and possibly Mordor (Sauron liked order after all)
I remember MERP (Middle-Earth Role Playing Game) doing a similar approach, at least saying that Variags and Haruze (the people of Near Harad) have similarities. But the Variags I remember were depicted as very brutal, with one of the Nazgul being a Variag king called Uvatha, who killed his first man when he was seven. Also the Variags in MERP were highly valued by Sauron, being used plenty as cavalry and Sauron's highest human officers were usually defaulted as Variags.
I think i can agree.
I personally think that the Haradrim are far better adept at desert campaigns. Their entire homelands screams of it. They may not be as good on the field as Gondor due to their lighter armor style derived from their home conditions.
This puts them at a solidly disavantage compared to Gondor´s skill in methalurgy, and while they used gold and adorned themselves with gold and were rich, wealth isnt the same as military competence.
Reminds me of the historical dynamics between Rome and Carthage with Gondor being the former and the Haradrim being the latter
Add in that Haradrim communities may be isolated from each other, then putting together a large Haradrim army is going to be difficult with different styles of fighting, leadership issues (I'm in charge! No, I am!), clan/tribal issues, and perhaps even language/dialect issues.
I do think the easterlings of the first age are just simply a totally different group of people than the easterlings of the third age, the only common attribute being them residing to the east of the people accounting the stories at the time. And I think this "mix-upp" was at least half intentional from Tolkien; the story imitates the collective legends of the real world that compound over time and it is only natural for these kinds of mix-upps to happen.
the problem with proving or disproving this is that we have almost no information about Rhun or the Easterlings. While the Easterlings definitely encompassed a large variety of peoples in the first age, I wonder if it remained that way through the third age, or if the peoples become sort of consolidated.
I would love a game or show that covers the mysterious inners of Rhun or Harad. So much potential there.
To my mind, the Easterlings basically resemble the nomadic or semi-nomadic tribes that periodically raided into or invaded Europe throughout history. The Haradrim invasions were more like those of the Muslims although without the religious components. I wonder if Easterling tribes ever attacked Haradwaith or was Sauron's control enough to prevent that. In the later version where the Blue Wizards came to Middle-Earth in the mid-2nd Age, that could have been a tactic they tried.
The Easterlings did actually attack Harad. In the Unfinished Tales we're told, "On the other hand the eastern Wainriders had been spreading southward, beyond Mordor, and were in conflict with the peoples of Khand and their neighbours further south. Eventually a peace and alliance was agreed between these enemies of Gondor, and an attack was prepared that should be made at the same time from north and south."
@@DarthGandalfYT There was probably an ebb and flow of migrations out of Rhun, similar to the Asian steppe of our world. Tolkien likely knew this and modeled these migrations in his writings.
@@DarthGandalfYT now I really need to get my hands on the unfinished tales!
The more I think about it, the more I believe the Easterlings had a variety of inspirations, including the Persians, Mongols, Ottomans, and Arabians, I don't think he had any one group of peoples in mind, where as the Haradrim strike me as Moors from North Africa, pirates, slavers, and at one point, conquerors of much of Southern Europe.
Just like the original magyars invadin Hungary.. a collective of different tribes.
Muh ancestas
@@zakback9937how does it feel to be an Easterling?
@@Damian.99 Haradrim, tbh if I was an easterling it's much superior to whatever a Slav would've been in Tolkien's universe if he considered your species.
@@zakback9937 Dude the Rohirrim are the slavs.
The east of middle earth is infinitely fascinating to me. And to hear that Tolkien had plans to write about the men of the east in detail before his death saddens me.
One question I always have wondered about Men of Darkness.. If they are numerous, would they be able to defeat Sauron if they hypothetically allied with Free People?
Probably, but I think they where too disunited societies so Sauron conquered them one by one.
@@laloarias6160
It seems to have been the task of The Blue Wizards to raise their consciousness.
Probably yes. I think a good analogy is the East India Company in India. Sauron played a long game, gradually turning fiefdom against fiedom until he had effective vassalage of large swaths of the east and south. There is a good chance that Sauron struggled in this affair too. There's long stretches of time where we know he's in the east, or he's back in Mordor but appears to be occupied elsewhere.
“Many of our truths we choose to cling to depend on our point of view.”
I think the idea that the Easterlings sucked at maintaining long campaigns does them a disservice especially when you consider what the people they're based on have done
For example the cuman-kypchak confederation dominated the kyivan russ in a conflict that lasted nearly 200 years, the Mongols lead many successful conquests against the middle east China and eastern Europe creating the largest contiguous empire in history
(Also it's important to note that, as stated in the video, everything we know about the Easterlings comes from the gondorians, so there's a chance that the Western chroniclers exaggerated and possibly even lied about them to make them look bad )
They are treading underdeveloped areas to invade the west. It's a geographical and development limitation than skill issue from the looks of it.
And nomadic armies are actually mixed bag. They rely on forcing local allied tribes to bolster their numbers. They have a few thousand horsemen core at most and they do raiding and coercion at most with exception of the Mongols. The Easterlings dont have the luxury of their historical counterparts.
One of my favorite Tolkien channels
Always delighted to see one of your videos! Thank you!
Really appreciate you making these videos mate! Awesome work
I always love daydreaming about what happened in the lands far to the east and south throughout the ages...
I imagined that’s where the blue wizards went and had adventures of their own
Another awesome video thanks for everything you do!
I’m currently rereading the two towers and would love a comparison between the different Orc-holds of Middle Earth if there are any differences you can dig up!
Keep doing what you’re doing! ❤
Very interesting video topics on this channel. Happy to see more this kind of videos! I found Easterlings and The Haradrim some of the most misterious and interesting things in Tolkien's world.
This video came out at the perfect time to help me develop my map, thanks man!
Probably the best Tolkien-themed channel on here, even considering it's "production value" is somewhat lower than other similar themed channels. It's info is top notch.
I was just thinking that you should do a video on the difference between the various Easterlings of the Third Age who feuded with Gondor and the Northmen, and then the Easterlings of the First Age. I do think the Easterlings of the earlier Easterlings, are a totally different people akin to the Bree-men. After all, Eriador would be the East to the peoples of Beleriand. The Bree-men are also described as dark-skinned, but in the same way that the Welsh were "dark" to the English. (Tolkien also throws in some Celtic cues in the culture of Bree- most obviously, the name!).
This was another good video. I'm all for it if you have some more comparison videos that you feel up to making.
Love your videos man ❤️
Greetings from Vancouver 🇨🇦
Great video
Harad - North Africa; Moors, Berbers. Colonized by Numenor (Romans) and later the Black Numenoreans whom I've always personally felt were meant to be Arabs.
1st Age Easterlings - Far East of Asia; Huns and Persians.
3rd Age Easterlings - Middle East to the Levant and the Caucusus; Mongols and Turks.
The idea being that, at different points throughout history, all of these people either invaded or colonized parts of Europe (Western and Northern Middle Earth).
I really would enjoy more comparison videos.
Great video Gandalf, I think you should bring out "what was the difference" videos on a more regular basis.
AWESOME VID easterlings and southrons are very interesting topics.
Love the content sir
I’ve really got back into Tolkien lore ever since playing Divide and Conquer on Medieval 2 TW
Cheers from Toronto thanks for the video it made my day at work middle earth lore makes factory way better 😀
Fascinating stuff, thank you. The Easterlings certainly seem to have taken some inspiration from Asian empires of old, with the Haradrim more akin to the Berbers and maybe even the Carthaginians due to the Mûmakil/war elephants.
Easterlings; based on Mongols or Scythians
Haradrim; based on Arabs, Persians, Phoenicians, etc.
Thank you for this video. You clearly put a lot of hard work into creating it. As someone who is new to Tolkien’s lore, keeping track of the different species, races, and civilizations in his world is challenging. This video is very helpful. Thanks again.
Always answering the questions that the fans would like to know Lord Darth Gandolf
Thanks for this topic! I wonder how Khand fits into this. Also if Rhun was basically a vast expanse of plains with nomads, it makes me think there’s a distant Middle Earth version of India and China somewhere out there, perhaps even resistors of Sauron but just isolated and under siege by all sides, and not even knowing of potential allies like Gondor (or vice versa).
One thing I have never understood was how the West maintained a technological advantage over Sauron's domain, Sauron had two thousand years before he openly revealed himself to reconquer and reorganize his old territories and plan the next war. You would think he would do a Stalin and create his own five year (or in his case five century) to industrialize and urbanized his territories. He had the knowledge, he had the time and he had the necessary manpower and resources to do so, the fact that his entire army wasn't at least clad in mail if not plate and what armour and weapons they did have were outright called inferior to Gondor and the other western realms is mind boggling. I thought he valued efficiency? Barbarian hordes are not efficient, well trained and equipped armies are efficient. It was like he was purposely making it harder for himself to take over the world.
Tolkien wrote somewhere that Sauron introduced metallurgy and smithing to the peoples of East and South, I think the implication is that these peoples were fit to battle the Gondorians, and they brought the kingdom to its knees several times before the war of the Ring
Sauron would not have wanted to have given out to much knowledge and created another power like Numenor that had brought him to his knees.
@@Crafty_Spirit This is correct. It's mentioned in the Silmarillion that Sauron brought basic stoneworking and metallurgy to the peoples of the south and east during the Second Age.
@@wardaddy6595 Exactly. Sauron didn't care much for Men at first. He saw them as useful tools. But he also recognised the danger they posed.
Do we know anything about Elves in the lands East and South of Mordor? Or aren’t there any?
Damm good video 2 thumbs up
Did the Easterlings have cannons or any fire weapons or is that just a Age of the Ring video game thing?
That’s a video game thing. The closest thing would’ve been Saruman’s “blasting fire”
Pretty darn good.
It might be nice to have a video comparing the free note memories of the third age to the black numinoriums of the third age.
But these were Men, Proud and Valorous. They neither gave nor asked quarter.
I always liked the Southrons and Easterlings and wish we'd gotten more on their cultures and history.
A comparison betwen Nargothrond and Gondolin
We've finished with the Haradrim Palace!!!
Easterlings and Southrons. What's to question? They dress differently, they fight differently, they come from different regions. It's pretty clear.
Can you talk about barrow wights?
Why didn't my notifications tip me off to this new video? Aww...
But Hirgon told us about many kings riding both of east and south
Good job, Joe! You good, Joe. Good.
We only saw sauron's/mordor's/minas morgul's uruk-hai orc armies once,and that was in the year 2475.We never saw them again.Why?
The Rhunrim and the Haradrim
What was the destiny of Dior son of Beren and Luthien is he counted as a man or elf or he is in the limbo?
He's a Half-elf, but Half-elves were biologically Men. Given he died before the choice was given to other Half-elves, I think it's safe to say that he shared in the Fate of Men.
The Judgement of Manwe:
"Now all those who have the blood of mortal Men, in whatever part, great or small, are mortal, unless other doom be granted to them; but in this matter the power of doom is given to me."
CT's commentary:
"It is to be observed that according to the judgement of Manwë Dior Thingol's Heir, son of Beren, was mortal irrespective of the choice of his mother."
Both quotes from HoMe V
Harad was North Africa or Syria, because it shared that Roman/Numenorian heritage. Easterlings are weird cuz they are from a different time period they're really Sarmatians or Goths
What if the 7 father's of the dwarf's awakend in Mount cundabad and what if all the elves went to valinor to be protected by the ainur that didn't follow melkor same fan fiction
What if the 5 order of the istari arrived in middle earth in 1000 of the third age
What if Gondor kept umbar horondor
What if the kin strife didn't happen
What if the Red arrow dident arrive to the éothead
Imagine an Asian or oceanic inspired easterlings. Imagine the maoris worshipping sauron through canabilism…
(I think I spelled cannibalism wrong….sorry)
I mean, Middle-earth is meant to be Earth in the past, so they could be out there.
@@DarthGandalfYT such opportunities to write easterling stories in tolkiens world.
Honestly this is what a new middle earth show should be based on, there’s a lot of untapped potential for stories and lore in these lands imo o
You've got historical stand-ins for most of the big name Asian invaders into Europe: Particularly Huns, Mongols, and the Seljuks and Ottomans.
Diverent peoples that is the diverents
I think it's worth noting that logically gold on armour will only be gold plate: gold is too soft and heavy to be otherwise useful in armour.
Aesthetics were a function in its own.
@@johnisaacfelipe6357 Sure, no issue with that. But it doesn't change that practicalities mean out can only be gold plate, which limits what it says about their wealth huh? Plus, if you're a walking bank vault of gold, you're not just vulnerable on the battlefield, but to every brigand on the road and thief in every hostelry. Possibly including me. :-)
There is a place called Haradh in Saudi Arabia...
More comparison videos? Please do Hobbits and their distant evolutionary cousin the Balrogs.
Balrogs are probably corrupted Maiar rather than related to Hobbits.
And Khand?
Separate video
Was sauron the dark lord of ALL of middle earth? Were thier wars in his name in the far far south and east? Were there other maiar dark lords maybe in other continents that we didn't hear about or is it just sauron?
There were almost certainly other Maior kicking around. We encounter or hear of five in the Lord of The Rings alone. It's likely there are others.
Considering that beings such as The Balrog of Moria were Maiar, and Sauron himself was also Maiar there were undoubtedly many more such Maiar kicking about in these untold places and times.
Rhun always have a mixed vibe of Persian/chinese/mongols the cross roads between Central Asia and east Asia
The Easterlings and Haradrim are one of my favorite topics about Tolkien👍👍👍. Who do you prefer?
I've always liked the Easterlings more because they share more similarities to the Huns, Mongols etc...Something about terrifying horsemen from the steppes is alluring to me.
@@DarthGandalfYT Hyperborean ancestral blood memory...
@DarthGandalfYT at times, it feels like Tolkien got most of his information about the Mongols (and others like them) from the 1951 movie 'the Golden Horde'
@@agentspaniel4428 I just looked at the wiki page for that film. Yep, definitely a film that would've come out in the 50s.
To me it feels like the Easterlings where the Huns and the Haradrim where Arabian or Persian, no offense to anyone off course, but coming from a cultured man like Tolkien it really seems like it. The Huns where poor and pillagers, built empires vast but that didn’t last long. The Persians,Arabians, middle eastern countries with all their gems and riches normally where poorly equipped compared to the Europeans but won long wars in the long term and where always fighting with the crusaders for example.
Algormancy!
This seems to be a little bit biased against the Easterlings. Nevertheless I had to laugh about the "in all their infinite wisdom they camped in a river valley..." 😂
Easterlings are Middle-Eastern (wielding scimitars) and Haradrim are North Africans (riding elephants). The ‘Men of the West’ are obviously Europeans.
The Easterlings are a lot more varied than just “middle-eastern” as the term is just a blanket one set by the men of the west, the Easterlings are basically just Eurasian peoples east of Europe.
You know how else rode war elephants? The Romans, Greeks, Carthaginians, and dozens of Indian empires.
Tolkien was a man of his time, he had the same prejudices as most white people who lived in early 20th century. When he wrote his works he obviously based the Haradrim and Easterlings on people from Africa and the Middle East. The good ‘God (Eru Illuvatar)’-fearing humans were the western Europeans.
they were like Persian and Abbasid troops or maybe Seljuk
Easterlings are from the East and the Southrons are from the South
Simple as
I heard he based them on Ethiopians (the men of harad) with Arabic flavor splashed on top
That idea comes from an essay Tolkien wrote; "Sigelwara Land", in which he examines the etymology of the word Old English word "Sigelhearwan", which means Ethiopians. In the early drafts of LOTR, the anglicised names for the Haradrim were "Silharrows and Harwan".
So it is technically true, but we should keep in mind that his inspirations are based on words and etymology, not necessarily actual peoples and cultures.
The movie gives the opposite impression, the Easterling armor seem more developed
Welp I Think My Ancestors In Middle Earth Is Just Chilling in An Island ( Im Indonesian)😅
I would rather you refrain from more comparison videos. I feel like if you take that step, it will become easy for you to just repeat your past videos for an endless stream of content, making you just like all the other Tolkien CZcamsrs, which I would hate, you are my favorite.
Quite hard to do, because tolkien content isnt continuing so one day it will of course be at an end. That is why it would seem like repeating topics.
thats like whats was difference between saracens and mongols? thats the same here
Whats the difference between Asians and Africans?
khand
One is from the East and the other is from the South.
Variags from khand
Simple. One is inspired by chinese Empire, Tartars, mongols, and nomads, the other one is based on Arabs and africans. Easy to see. Haradrim were less evil and conquered by Numenor, with Blue Wizards trying to help them, Easterlings were more evil and made deals with Sauron freely and attacked dwarves of Erebor.
Tolkien took inspirations from Real world, its a shame he did not explore more regions of middle Earth ans its history. But I think its better that way. If we were given more details, like in Game of Thrones or Shadow Realms, the mystery and magic of middle Earth wouldnt be the same. Lord of the Rings reads almost like a fairly tale, modern fiction reads more like historical events in magical worlds.
Far Harad is subsaharan african, Harad is African in the historical sense (ie the roman province of africa = north africa)
@@johnisaacfelipe6357Yes Harad is more like North Africa, perhaps Carthaginian or Berber, but maybe with a tinge of Egyptian and Persian the further East of Harad you go, whereas Far Harad was more akin to sub-Saharan Africa.
The Easterlings were likely a collection of people’s based on the Huns, Mongols, Tartars, maybe even Cumans, I get very ‘nomadic horde’ culture and vibes from their limited descriptions.
I think the Easterlings are just an amalgamation inspired by everything from the Ostrogoths to the Mongols. Just like the Haradrim's roots include everything from the Levant to the heart of Africa. After all, Gondor has the byzantine vibe.
one is from the east and one is from the south.
1. Didn't Sam talk about black skinned people who'd ride on oliphants without using a troll comparison? He had read about them at Bilbo's house. I think he asked Smeagol if he had seen them. In the very good German translation (Tolkien wrote a translation guide and used it at this first and also was in contact with the translators as he spoke German), the name Sam used is Schwärzlinge which would literally translate as Blacklings.
2. I read somewhere that the Bree people are (partly?) descended from the one group of 1stAge Easterlings who did not betray the good humans and elves and thus their warriors fought side by side with them against the forces of Morgoth. If we look at how Tolkien describes the Mannish Bree Folk (I mean, the Bree folk also contains Hobbits), they don't fit with neither Dunedain nor the Northerners.They are shorter, stockier etc. If someone knows better, please enlighten me.
3. Return of the King already begins with a short demographic explanation of Gondor and it clearly mentions that several regions are the result of mixing Numenorians with different, somewhat shorter and darker groups.
The Men of Bree are Pre-Numenoreans, related to the Dunlendings. They did indeed come from the east in the First Age, but didn't cross over the mountains into Beleriand, so they didn't take part in the wars with Morgoth.
I think you've confused them with the house of Bór the Faithful, who were Easterlings that did cross over the mountains and fight alongside the elves.
I wonder if the stereotypes of "wild brutish men from the east" (see: Mongols) and "black men steeped in gold" (see Nubian or Chad Empires) showcased how little JRRT actually knew of these places on Earth. Sure, he was a linguist, but his forte was Germanic tongues, and so that's what he studied. Hence, why Cardolan, Gondor, Rohan, etc is so similiar to Western Europe - the source of Germanic language and people - and why anywhere other than that is so.... vague and nebulous.
He might have known plenty. But he was writing from the perspective of his characters. He rarely divulges information that his characters wouldn't have had easy access to. The nebulous details of the greater world is typical of ancient sagas and mythologies.
lets be accurate,, Harad is north african, they were never described as "black men steeped in gold" just more darker skinned and wealthy (like the difference between a north african and a french person).
Far Harad is more likely the analog for subsaharan african, the "troll men of far harad" are the ones described as black skinned with glossy eyes.
Information about these people beyond orientalist stereotypes was basically nonexistent in the 1910s
Easterlings are from the east, and the Haradrim are from the south.
Big if true.
No way
@@Emdiggydog Way!
The creation of Harad: Tolkien was inspired by (ancient) AEthiopia for the creation of this people in his mythology:
>"Christopher Tolkien linked the Haradrim with ancient Aethiopians. In an interview from 1966, Tolkien likened Berúthiel to the giantess Skaði of Norse mythology, since they both shared a dislike for "seaside life". Additionally, Tolkien scholar Tom Shippey stated in reference to the 'black men like half-trolls' passage from The Return of the King that Tolkien was attempting to write like a medieval chronicler in describing the Rohirrim's encounter with a Haradrim: "[...] and when medieval Europeans first encountered sub-Saharan Africans, they were genuinely confused about them, and rather frightened.
>Much of Tolkien's influence for Harad and the Haradrim came about from his essay Sigelwara Land, in which he examined the etymology of Sigelwaran (and the more usual form Sigelhearwan) - the Old English word for Ethiopians."
The people of Harad are black, tall, fierce and valiant. There is thus a potential for worldbuilding the culture, traditions and mythologies with a hint of North African civilizations and an homage to the "unknown" myths of sub-Saharan Africa
About the peoples of the east - Rhûn, Khand and Variags. Tolkien said he was inspired by Asia (China, Japan, etc):
>"When asked in an interview what lay east of Rhûn, Tolkien replied "Rhûn is the Elvish word for 'east'. Asia, China, Japan, and all things which people in the west regard as far away."
In an early versions of "The Hobbit", Bilbo's speech about facing the "dragon peoples of the east" had an reference of China and the Hindu Kush:
>"In the earliest drafts of The Hobbit, Bilbo offered to walk from the Shire 'to [cancelled: Hindu Kush] the Great Desert of Gobi and fight the Wild Wire worm(s) of the Chinese. In a slightly later version J.R.R. Tolkien altered this to say 'to the last desert in the East and fight the Wild Wireworms of the Chinese' and in the final version it was altered once more to say 'to the East of East and fight the wild Were-worms in the Last Desert'."
>History of Middle Earth - The First Phase, "The Pryftan Fragment", p. 9
Mongols and Arabs, pretty much.
What’s the difference?
It’s harad to say…
Gotta love the implicit racism in just about all the descriptions of these "men of the South" and "men of the East".
Tolkien surely was a man of his time.
It's almost like the story was told from the perspective of the 'Men of the West' who were under attack from these invaders and would have perceived them as monsters.
Good
We all know the barbarians they were based on. We all know Aragorn's "men of the west" speech is also appropriate for what's currently happening to Europe.
What's currently happening in Europe? You mean Russia?
Racist detected
Diference?
One is a mongol
The other is a arab
"free peoples of the west", is that a Joke?🤣
I'm getting some heavy Tartarian vibes from these Easterlings!
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Lmfao
Easterling are egyet and haradrim are muslim