Christian Academic Gavin Ortlund Affirms Heresy?
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- čas přidán 5. 05. 2024
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Jazak Allah khair brother Jake.
Good response brother. I like how you’ve kept it polite despite being firm in conveying your point. Keep it like that, so in case he makes a response video, you two can agree to dialogue on a given topic. I think you could reach a lot of his viewers with your da’wah.
Thank you brother Jake for all the work your doing.
Brother Jake I just want to let you know that you have taught me a lot about my beautiful religion so thank you!
Alhamdulillah! I'm happy to hear that. May Allah bless you!
Always illuminating
Thanks!
You're welcome. Much appreciated!
100k subs hype
Thank you for informing
Thank you bro. Jake
Thanks
Very good video
Awesome video
I don't see how any christian can defend divine simplicity when in the old testament God says to Moses that he can't look at His face but he can look at His back. Whatever face or back means, if they are both God but one can be seen but the other can't, then there's a divison in God and this contradicts divine simplicity.
JazakAllah'u khairan brother Jake
"He begets from himself onto his own form" I guess before discovery of microorganism the understanding already exist lol. Sound like amoeba to me 🤯
@MuslimMetaphyscian Hey Jake for Protestants who deny the procession what reason is there for God the Father to be a Father pre creation considering theres no such relation betwern father and son anymore so the names for the 2 seem to become arbitrary Do you think its a fair criticism?
Yes
Hey protestant Here, I don't deny divine procession if that's what you mean, maybe some do, not too sure. it seems the protestant reformers are pretty clear in affirming it.
@kylecityy no thats not what I meant all deny it many contemporary apologists do because of other problems now the other problems is a different rabbit hole. May I ask do you have a specific denomination
@@Blade-kd5qe maybe we understand this terminology of doctrine differently. Could you define this doctrine?
I am still looking for a specific denomination near me. In general, I affirm nicene orthodox views of the trinity and christology. I affirm the five solas fundamental in the protestant tradition.
@kylecityy it just means the Father Begets the son and then the holy spirit spirates from the son and father pr the Father alone depending on if or catholic or orthodox. Some protestants say no the trinity just existed it was always there no begetting
Assalamu alaikum sir
it would be really cool if you would answer the trinity argument: God is 3 in 1 like body, soul and spirit.
Wa alaykumu salaam. Already have.
czcams.com/video/m07zDLq5atw/video.htmlsi=bKeARCn4_nDgfwTv
Life is interesting.
I only was able to watch about 9 or 10 minutes of this, but for anyone following along, just to clarify: I affirm the eternal generation of the Son, but don’t like saying the Son is “caused”by the Father because to modern ears it makes it sound like the Son is a creature. It’s an issue of how the language is often taken. In the context of the question I was also thinking more of Ryan’s criticism of divine simplicity than eternal relations. Unfortunate how this video tries to spin so much out of this.
There's no spinning by me here. Only you. You literally said if the view is that "God causes the Son or causes the Spirit, yeah that would be a strange view...So even though I wouldn't affirm this view that the Father causes the Son or the Father causes the Spirit." You admitted you weren't even sure what Monarchical Trinitarianism was. When Ryan explained what the view was you said that it was "strange" and you didn't affirm it. Now, you're saying that you do affirm it in terms of substance, but didn't want to use the word "cause" as it may be misleading. Unfortunately, you showed no awareness of this in the video. You could've very easily explained that this is the position and language of the Trinitarian Church Fathers and you accept it, while at the same time clarifying the term cause, distinguishing it from create.
I like watching both you and Jake. You’ll likely not recall, but I wrote a comment ages ago, expressing how I watch your content to get a better insight into Christian denominations, and also suggesting that you do a video with Jake to further the interfaith dialogue between our faiths.
I still think that’s a good idea, as I think of both you and Jake as charitable individuals.
Jake is a Sunni who rejects Divine simplicity, while you think it is an important doctrine that needs to be affirmed. Perhaps this is something you could speak about together. (Especially because the debate with Mullins was unsatisfying, you two only talked about the doctrine’s definition for most of the time).
This idea that the language of causality makes the Son sound like a creature isn’t unique to “modern ears.” It’s why Thomas in the Summa refuses to use “cause” to describe the Father’s relation to the Son and opts instead only for “principle.” But he’s the only medieval theologian I’m aware of who has this problem. Damascene, Anselm, Lombard, Bonaventure, Pecham, Henry, Scotus, Ockham, and Palamas use the language of “cause,” and Bonaventure through Palamas even use the language of “produce” to describe the Father’s relation to the Son and Spirit and highlight that the causal relation is efficient causation. All of these thinkers also felt the urgency to clarify, with a lot of words, that it doesn’t entail the Son is a creature. So, there’s nothing uniquely “modern” about how this sounds to someone who isn’t thoroughly familiar with the doctrine. This has always been something theologians have had to clarify their meaning on because they all know it sounds subordinationist. So, I don’t think this is a good reason to avoid the language because it didn’t stop any of the patristics or medievals (except for Thomas), nor did it stop the Reformers or Post Reformers from using the language. They used it and then offered lengthy clarifications for why it supposedly isn’t a problem. Why are theologians today opting for the cheap way out and abandoning what has been the proper grammar of trinitarian doctrine for two millennia? If someone doesn’t want to say the Father causes the Son, then do like Thomas and say that you think it’s incorrect and opt for “principle,” “grounds,” or whatever kind of dependence relation you want in its stead. But to hide the language of “cause” because some may misunderstand it seems to be an insult to all those who went before and took the time to defend their use of the language, and it also seems a little dishonest. No disrespect, but I don’t think this is a good position to take on this issue, and it’s caused a lot of confusion with those who have no problem acknowledging the language of “cause” in traditional trinitarian grammar, some of whom are your listeners.
To clarify: My comment is meant for Gavin, not Jake.
What is your line? Why stop there?
A literal Son and Father also sound like creatures to modern ears.
You don’t have a problem using this language.
Maybe the words Son and Father shouldn’t be used either?
I want a video of complete refutation of Douglas Murray arguments against islam from you
I have been seeing your videos for a while. Muslims like yourself, daniel haqiqatjou , mohamed hijab debate islamophobes like david wood, apostate prophet and robert spencer and many more and Defeated them. But there is only one guy named Douglas murray author of book called strange death of europe. Even though this guy is known
for anti islam propoganda for many years, suddenly anti islam youtubers using his videos now morethan ever his popularity is increasing day by day. Reason anti islam social media is using this guy suddenly is because they are run out of people like david wood,sam harris, robert spencer and apostate prophet because these guy defeated by muslims in debate.
Only undefeated islamophobe is Douglas murray ( the last hope of islamophobes)
So I want you to debunk his all arguments against islam.
Please do this for sake of islam.
Assalamu alaikum.
I get a kick out of the fact a dude from jersey wearing an Adidas shirt and ball cap is raining down missles of dissonance upon Oxford fashioned theologians in cashmere sweaters 😅
The Father in the Trinity does not "cause" the son to exist. All three of the persons of the Trinity "cause" each other to exist. If one disappeared, the entire Trinity would immediately vanish. Also, all three person's of the Trinity cause One God to exist as a merged mind.
This isn't "Nicene Orthodoxy".
@@TheMuslimMetaphysician It will likely be orthodoxy in the future. That council did not have access to knowledge needed to understand the Trinity. They did their best.
👍🏼
I expected more from Gavin but apparently he's just like the rest of dogmatic classical theist and theologian who just keeps repeating the dogmatic formula without understanding its difficulties or entailment of their affirmation.
Repeating the dogmatic formula without understanding (or accepting) the entailments of their affirmation is best seen in the athari creed though. Men like Ibn Taymiyyah make arguments that clearly imply that God is a spatial being and therefore a body (jism), yet they are not willing to say that God has a body
@@stquodvultdeus4613Every theists have very loose understanding of body but reject the affirmation of God being a body by appeal to some transcendent unknowable categories. Even the likes of Aquinas could not escape the entailment of God being a body other than his specialty of being a sophist. Ibn Taymiyyah remained silent for the most part so as not to cause misunderstanding because pseudo-intellectual like internet Thomists have this tendency to impose their metaphysics, theory of language, theory of predication, distinction, definitions etc on others.
God bless you brother, I hope you do more videos on the attributes of Allah
Excellent video! But brother try to keep the videos short (3 to 15 minutes) as the current attention span of the masses is very little.
If that's what someone is looking for, then my channel isn't for them. That's not my target audience.
Just view it with 2x playback and it'll be a 15 minutes video.
Heresy? According to who? The mainstream church.
There's nothing biblical about the trinity. No trinitarian seem to give the same definition or understanding.
I could never accept the trinity as a Christian myself. I do not see it's legitimacy, and I never see trinitarians preach the gospel starting with Abraham. No one ever talks about Abraham, and he is the father of the faith!
Can you make a video exposing god logic
It's coming soon...
He has no logic in the false claims he makes.
He survives on unknowledgeable Muslims trying to defend their faith. The moment anyone like Hamza's den sets his eyes on him, he's over. He had a debate with him recently, and got brutally mauled by him, most of the arguments he used to spray around were manhandled by Hamza as if he was playing with a brat.
@@therealyoutubeguycan you provide the link?
@@TheMuslimMetaphysician jazakallah
🤷♂️
is there any future debate u'll take Jake?
Debate with who and on what topic?
@@TheMuslimMetaphysician oh i really does have any names in mind right now...i just thought u have a upcoming debate maybe cause its been a while since last time i seen u debate....in modern day debate or such platform...but thx for responding...i appreciate
@@youdontneedtoknow...5623 I have a debate with a Catholic apologist scheduled for sometime this summer on whether or not Justin Martyr believed in the Trinity.
@@TheMuslimMetaphysiciancouncil Trent?
@@TheMuslimMetaphysiciantrent horn??
Christianity is so confusing.
Free Palestine 🇵🇸🇧🇩