The REAL Reason They Keep Adding More Gears to Bikes
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- čas přidán 15. 06. 2024
- Has enshitification come to bicycles?
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I totally agree. This economy that requires infinite growth, instead of just making what people need with some extra luxuries thrown in, is a disaster.
Listen I can only get so deep into this sour enshitification argument. Like, my brother in Christ, the most recent component release from a major manufacturer was a mechanical group set that went back to 11sp, radically overhauled their entry and mid level into a single standard,reunited road and MTb from 9-11sp and was focused on wild levels of durability. (Hell he JUST did a video on it?!?)
Like if you don’t like what the Freds are putting on their carbon dentist bikes **don’t freaking buy it.**
I'm ready for communism too.
11 spd is the most I have and I probably don't even need that tbh
The economy doesn’t „require“ infinite growth. The amount of public and private debt does. Plenty of companies go bankrupt, it’s part of the process. If there was no growth by the way, we would be stuck in the middle ages
In a finite medium, in this case planet Earth, growth can only be continued indefinitely if it's asymptotic to some sustainable limit. Boundless growth is just the notion that we can afford to simply use up the planet, and that's just asinine!
I wanna go back to times when we could fix things
I think the only difficult thing to repair on my bikes are the Ergo levers. So far they are holding up well, but I worry about needing new G springs and carriers.
That time will come, the world simply has to face it.
@@christopheroliver148 They're not that hard. A couple of hours tops. It's really the first time that you take on a new task that it's hard. Just overhauled my rear hub and freehub. Took a while to figure it out but conceptually it's pretty simple. And all child's play compared to working on complex car systems like the transmission.
@@kovie9162 I have no problem with the hubs, and I've serviced mine pretty often. I meant the mech in a 10s ergo lever.
I never left. Just keep your old school stuff or if you really have to buy, get second hand easy-to-work-on old school bikes. Don't buy the latest marketing hype gimmicks like everything internally routed, unadjustable and useless Di-2 electronic shifting. I can fix my things OK, like I always did.
More gears = narrower chains = quicker wear and tear = replace more often = pay more moneys
Agree. I'm doing wax just to get as many miles out of my 10s chains as I can. I worry about needing one and it no longer being on the market.
Idk I've seen no noticeable difference in chain life from 9 through 12 speed chains at long as I've been in the industry.
Visit zero friction cycling website for some data. You might just change your position... Within limits.
11 and 12 speed chains are way more durable than 7-8-9 speeds. The treatment on the wear surfaces has come a long way.
@@christopheroliver148 The 10/11 speed Shimano LG500 Linkglide chain is going to be around for a long time, thanks to the recently released Shimano CUES groupsets.
It’s simply bike fashion marketing. The clothing “problem” was also solved long ago.
You nailed it. About 10 years ago I downgraded to 8 speeds with friction shifting. Strangely liberating!
Friction shifting is the way to go!!!
My beater / bar bike is 26" wheels, 7 speed with friction shifting. Just check the tire pressure, swing a leg over it and go. Amen!
i like my 8 spd bikes more than a 10 spd
This is the way
And about 10 years ago I quit cycling and just chilled on the sofa. That’s even more liberating than just giving up modern gears.
Wider tire clearance on road bikes is a valuable change that I don’t think has peaked.
It really is on "road" bikes that need to tackle poor quality third world country roads. However, on the vast majority of half-decent (or better) Western European roads, 28C tyres are more than enough - at least so long as you avoid absurdly stiff framesets, seatposts and cockpits.
The real issue is that wider and more compliant road tyres came hand in hand with ultra-stiff framesets, wheelsets and components. I'd rather have both reasonably comfortable tyres, framesets, wheels and components than just tyres that need to compensate for the lack of comfort offered by the other parts of the system by going wider, heavier and with paper-thin sidewalls.
@@11robotics I have a couple of custom steel frames in Deda 0.1 which I ride with 23mm sew-ups. I weigh somewhere around 65Kg, and that's a pretty stiff tube set for me. I think 25mm will be pretty plush. I think the main thing is not to have a frame that exaggerates stiffness unless you're maybe a racer in his/her twenties at the elite level. The Walter Mittys among us would be better served by more supple bikes.
@@christopheroliver148 yeah, if you have an already too stiff frame, going from 23C to 25C or even 28C will make a huge difference. Trying out a somewhat flexible carbon seatpost will also help, so long as its exposed, out-of-the-frame length is large enough (I would say at least 15 cm).
@@11robotics I don't think of my Mooneys as too stiff. They're a good stiffness for me. I certainly didn't need anything built with Columbus Max. I actually stayed with Campagnolo Ti seatposts. (Record in 2000 but Chorus in 2002) I didn't think a conventional seat clamp onto carbon was a terribly good idea.
I loved roadbikes with
3x7 26”er here, still satisfying no app or batteries needed thank heavens. MBSA make bicycles simple again
2x9 is the way to go. 3x is clunky and confusing.
@@gameison4813how is triple confusing and clunky when it has all same components as double?
Also, 9 speed. Meh. If made by shimano - double meh. Indeed 3x7 is better in all aspects.
I love to tinker yet keep things simple (I'm also one head injury away from riding the short bus everywhere) so 1x8 is simple, cheap, and versatile enough and still have a good ride.
@@feedbackzaloop Triples have a lot of redundant gearing ratios.
1x8-2x11 is best overall.
@@neutronpcxt372 doubles have plenty of overlap too. Also same amount of components (3x8 is even same amount of cogs as 2x9 or 1x10). But nothing beats range of triples.
What's really interesting is that the Chinese companies coming out with electronic groupsets just let you use them with 7-12 speeds, because there's no reason they shouldn't be able to shift any number of gears as it's just a motor moving a certain distance when you push a button, but Shimano wants you to rebuy everything every time they add more speeds. There's probably no reason that currently Di2 couldn't shift a 13 speed cassette with a firmware upgrade, but that would mean people don't have to buy so much more stuff.
Nothing new here. Different cable-pull ratios exist for the same reason.
A lot of Western consumerism can be summed up by the title of the 90's album by 4 Non Blondes. "Bigger, Better, Faster, More!"
"And so I cry sometimes when I'm lying in bed
Just to get it all out what's in my head
And I, I am feeling a little peculiar
And so I wake in the morning and I step outside
And I take a deep breath and I get real high
And I scream from the top of my lungs
"What's going on?""
I totally agree with you. For decades I have watched the bicycle industry lead consumers by the nose towards the next shiny object. Wake up people, it's not the bike, it is what you do with it. Go out and ride whatever you have and enjoy the activity. I am intrigued by the Buffalo Bike but that is a bit too basic for me.
Now Trek has gone back to rigid forks and downsized the wheels to 27.5" on it's Dual Sport line, and they try to convince us that this is an "improvement" that we should be willing to pay more money for. In that case, I'll just keep riding my 1990s bikes with rigid forks and and 26" wheels and they should be the next "great new thing" before too much longer.
Thank you for covering this. Its a real problem for the industry and consumers.
Higher cost, less durable, difficult and costly to get spares = more new sales. If we cared about the environment we'd all stop at anything 10 speed or less.
Agree. I think the only real place to innovate that makes sense for the consumer and the environment is to figure ways to make the wear parts last longer with compromising the quality of the ride. While racing may have gotten faster since the time of Hinault and LeMond, I don't think that the technology has made it more interesting. In fact I had a conversation with a coach recently who opined that radio from the _directeur sportif_ to the riders has actually made road racing more boring.
Why 10? Why not 9, 8, 7 or even 6? Why have gears at all?
Gosh. It’s a hobby, not a maniafesto. Stop taking things so seriously and just buy it if it makes you happy, or don’t if otherwise.
@@87togabito 10 speed is where I've got the best shifting from everything I've ever used. Thankfully the 3x10 XT groupset is still in production as Shimano XT Touring. Lovely light shifting, including at least double shifts in both directions and a clutch derailleur to eliminate chain slap. I've ridden everything from 6 speed to 12, and 10 is where the gear shift experience peaked.
Since then, for some reason, they've made downshifting force much higher (Even in the later 2x10 groupsets). SRAM's escapement style upshifting (Like Shimano used to do), combined with the misalignment of the upshift lever (To sidestep a Shimano patent that preventing them from having both levers share the same pivot, which has long expired by now) is just annoying to use.
@@87togabito the problem is, if you are happy with, say 9 speed you cannot buy high quality spares because only 12, 13 speed is available.
The bike I raced as a junior, 55 years ago was second hand, so would be 60 years old now. Steel cottered cranks, downtube shifters, 2x6 speed. I cannot say that my modern bike is significantly better, apart from easier to change gear. In fact in 55 years since I have never bettered my 10 mile TT time.
I'm happy with 11 speed. I doubt I will be moving past that for a while.
I wish they improved their 11 speed groupsets and officially supported more crossover between mtn and gravel components.
11 Speed already has so many gears I rarely use no point in adding 1 or 2 more that are just there for being there
just don't buy it
Cues, if you're a Shimano person, is exactly what you're talking about. Improving 7-11 speed and making things more cohesive between road (someday) and everything else.
@@matt.3.14 I hope some manufacturer imitates Shimano Cues, but makes the cassette cogs lighter. 😊
@@oliverbergmann6117 I guess that depends what you're riding.
5 speed Sturmey Archer here, and with a drum break. Doing fine 😊
What Grant Petersen has been saying since… forever.
Working in the industry, I’ve enjoyed plenty of innovations without issue but paying ANY amount (let alone pro-level costs) for something that’s going to be irrelevant in 1-2 years makes me feel insane. Happy with my 2x10 mechanical and fixed gears.
Once in a while comes out something actually useful. What happens in the meantime doesn't make previous milestones irrelevant, those are minor improvements absolutely not worth throwing away not yet worn out components. 2x10 was great, but hardly different from 3x9. Now, 1x11 was a game-changer. And current 1x12 don't really overwrite it. On the road though, yes, 2x10 gave better cable routing, but now you can enjoy it starting from 3x8. Also first electronic (discarding that historic flop from Mavic) - but it didn't discontinue all mechanical groupsets, as most of people never did that switch yet and for quite a while still won't.
In a sense, gear number is just an indicator of different generations. Even with iphones you don't go from one to next, but rather step one or two over.
Brainwashing has become so common today. Why else would anyone consider upgrading a perfectly functioning bicycle or components.
I do prefer 2x11. But TBF my city 3x9 is enough. 2x10 vs 2x12.. I would choose the 2x10 unless electronic.
I own a bike shop. 2 x 10. Because cassettes and chains are cheaper and better versatility over 1x. But by the time you wear out the front derailleur, you'll most likely have to replace both the front derailleur and left shifter due to our content creators aforementioned compatibility issues. Front derailleurs last a long time when properly maintained though. By the time you need a new front mech, Shimano Cues will be outdated. And so on and so on. I personally use 1x8 on my bike.
I've already snapped 2x 12 speed chains since upgrading, something that rarely ever happens in the 30+ years of cycling. I found the perfect setup to be a 3x10 mountain triple with an 11-36 cassette. I get all the range and none of the broken chains.
I gather you never broke a Campag PermaLink. I trashed one of those in 2000, and I had to make the phone call of shame. I still have a low mileage chain with a PermaLink, but I use breakable links even on that one so I can redo the immersion wax lube without special tools.
You actually have more top end with a 3x10.
If you are breaking chains, it's user error. Otherwise you would see lots of broken chains in pro races, I watch a lot for races and almost never see broken chains.
Check your maintenance and drive train if you are breaking chains..... Or get a pro contract.
@@rayF4rio In my case, the PermaLink was closed at a very reputable shop. I suspect that link was a matter of bad design rather than _user error._ Incidentally, the PermaLink I closed without the benefit of Campagnolo's special tool seems to have held up for at least a thousand miles so far. Again, I was quite paranoid when I put it together and checked it repeatedly as I was going along and after.
@@christopheroliver148 Oh that dreaded Campy Pin. Yes. I attempted that once, didn't feel it was properly fixed and removed it immediately. Replaced with KMC link. I've broken 2 chains (9sp Campy), both due to excessive OE grease removal on initial cleaning and then not enough lube after that, but that was in 2002. I also used to use Simple Green for all cleaning, until I found out it was detrimental to steel over the long term.
Money, money, money, all is about money😂
Russ you are not alone! Many of us are suffering from the GFS Gear Fatigue Syndrom. I am working on an article for the Pschyrembel 😉 because its so frustrating and a thing that we need like a wart in the crack.... and finally we saw a decline of quality in Equipment with lower gears like the old XT and XTR with 9 speeds wich I personally loved the most and wich are harder to find every year.
Totally agree, another cycling channel has recently been invited to an all expenses paid trip to test the latest update of a high end bike from an Italian producer. They raise similar questions, and have not been afraid to compare “Cheaper £500 bikes” to mounts costing ten times as much.
As an aside was recently caught by a guy on a Pincolgnwiller, I sat on his wheel for next 10 miles until my turn off.
He didn’t want to speak to me when I tried to ride alongside, hence my wheel sucking. Maybe the fact I was born in the fifties and I was riding a flat bar 29 inch mtb without suspension and had no power meter, garmin and wasn’t wearing black had something to do with it.
Still on 2x10s on my road bike and my commuter. I never felt like I needed more gears.
7k km on mine and never needed an adjustment so far
I'm pleased that someone is questioning the hyperconsumer madness being marketed by the industry. For this 72 yr-old retro-grouch, of my 9 bikes, only one bike is now more than 8 speed, and all are being dumbed down to friction shift as their aging index shifters become irreparable. On our latest, just-completed tour thru northern Italy/Austria, other cycle tourists on "modern" equipment seemed amazed that anyone could still tour on a 40-year-old touring machine (my bike parked in Italy is a Cannondale ST-500 from Cannondale's first year of bike production). Just show some love to your old bikes and they'll return a lifetime of joy in the saddle.
So last week I had a bit of trouble with my front derailleur on my bike's triple chain ring. I tried to adjust it. I did not fix it. I began to think that maybe the manufacturers were right about ditching the front derailleur. Then I watched a 3 minute video on how to adjust your front derailleur. I did. It's fine again.
I read the comments to your video. Most agree with you. It might be a good idea for some independent bike manufacturer to just sell a bike with the old stuff on it. I bet they would sell a lot of bikes.
Yes, I believe that company is Rivendell, and I'm sure they do :)
The best drivetrain I have used for MTB was Shimano XT 1996. 8x3. Worked perfekt. Good shifters etc. The 3x9 and 3x10 XT also works fine. But not as good as the 3x8.
The newer stuff seems to be intended for indoor/road use. Then used in the norwegian muck we have around here, the new, more narrow stuff cloggs up resulting in poor shifting performance. Not to mension electric shifting... Yeah, welcome to norwgeian autum... Wet, sub-zero, mud, ice... Another indoor idea. And prices has exploded. Looked at a 12x cassette (not the most expencive one): 120€. Ridiuculs.
I don't know for norvegian but here in south France 1x12 or 11 are great. The chain never drop. I have a Laufey 29 and there is no comparation with my old 26. You pass tech DH easy where you risk an otb with the 26. I will never look back from 29, 1x12 and one finger brake.
1 x 13 speed; slap a 38 chainring and 11-52 casette would be a "be it all" drive train for most bike riders
It was the same with cars, there was a point where you could, if you had the knowledge and tools, fix your own car. Now it’s virtually impossible to fix one without having to go to a garage. Specific and expensive parts are frequently required. Essentially, the basic bike is totally fixable by the owner, but with increasing use of apps and electronic components it’s going to be more difficult to work on your bike at home.
The industry keeps shooting itself in the foot and wondering why no one's buying bikes anymore.
Next shiny product: the foot gun and corresponding bullet proof shoe.
Thats simply not true. And if the demand gets too low they simply gonna lower the prices. They still earn so much that they propably can sell products for half their original price and still make money out of it.
@@jurekgadzinowski2895 and the thing is a 10 speed mechanical groupset can be bought now cheaper, comparitevly, than it was 15 years ago. Just because they might make 13 speed electronic, we don't have to buy it
@@KayDat love that comment 😂😂😂
I don't understand why the big companies are not bringing out a belt drive system. A thirteen gear groupset is not needed, more expensive to buy, weaker chain and change for change sake
Belt drives and their associated gearboxes make a ton of sense on e-bikes (particularly cargo), as weight and efficiency are less important there. But they will never be competitive on racing bikes, and a ton of consumers with deep pockets want to emulate pro athletes for reasons I don't understand.
Shimano have hub gears, they are half way there. Veer make a joinable belt drive, if a small company can do it then the big companies should be able to.
@@ebikescrapper3925what the person above meant, is that such setup is much heavier and has bigger energy losses. A chain is at around 93% efficiency to the wheels but the belt is o lot around 70-something%
@@ebikescrapper3925also, geared hubs are a pain in the ass to deal with when you have to change a flat somewhere in the forest
Very Inefficient. Most people don't have the strength to maximize the belt efficiency nor ride far enough to need the durability
Nah, the more gears the more fragile the components specially the chain...another innovation nobody needs and asked for
Campag 10 is as much as I need. I don't live in the mountains, and the 53/39 - 11/23 is all I see needing while my health holds. Even when age grabs me more firmly, I just see changing my chainrings and cassette. I don't need a greater number of gears. I just want wear parts to be reliably available.
@@christopheroliver148 10 speed, x2 is really the perfect setup in my opinion. In terms of durability, price and performance.
@@a1whiteagree with the 2x10 being the best setup. The only issue is that current 2x10 road groupsets (Tiagra, Veloce, Apex if they still make it) are rather agricultural and heavy, while also being rather incompatible with larger RDs allowing for increased ranges. It would be amazing if we could have an Ultegra R8000 or Campagnolo Chorus 2015+ "neo retro" groupset with 10 speeds and an option for fully compatible 11-36 or 11-42 RDs, along with some sub-compact cranksets (46/30) that use some rather standardized chainring bolt patterns - such as 5-bolt 110/74. All that with similar materials and weights compared to the "ancestors" they were derived from, which cannot be said about anything CUES.
Microshift Sword does look like a very nice contender, but it needs a more refined and lighter bigger brother.
But modern components aren’t necessarily more fragile. Look at Transmission vs older mountain bike rear mechs. That thing is STRONG! Maybe it needs to be stronger because people are doing more extreme MTB, but it is one example of components getting less fragile
Box 9 FTW. Durable.
I totally agree. I still use triple, rim brakes and pannies. 7 speed is enough, even I use 10 speed with downtube friction sifters.
I agree 100%. Not a racer and still riding old tech.
I will say that the one aspect of bikes that has improved over the last twenty years, and that could still use more improving going forward, is ergonomics and bike fit. For example, why did it take Shimano so long to figure out that adjustable reach road levers are desirable?
They are going backwards even in bike fit, though. My 157cm tall girlfriend is not about to let go of her 26" wheeled mountain bike because nothing new fits her half as well.
I’m a bike guide and I am constantly dealing with clients who show up with the latest and greatest bike they’ve rented. I’m supposed to teach them how to shift the latest sram, shimano, classified or campy gears that I have never seen before; sometimes the gears need micro adjusting - no idea. Internal routed cockpits that cannot be adjusted to fit the rider who rides at an average speed under 25 kms/hr so no aero advantage despite all the frustration. Hookless rims and tubeless tires - with tubes (on road bikes) that no human can remount if hands are cold or wet; even in good conditions I can only remount a few tires a week or my hands start bleeding - I guess there is a tool for that I’ll have to buy. Thanks for making this video Russ.
I'm happy with my 15 years old 3x9. You can basically always shift down with your front derailleur, if you have to.
I'm mixing Sram and Shimano components and they work perfectly together. Everything is standardized.
Thanks for your opinion!
I bought lots of Campy 10 speed parts for cheap after 11 speed came out. I am still riding them in 2024, metal cable and rim brake.
I’m a senior citizen and I like a lot of the new tech. I just bought a bike with carbon frame and rims, hydraulic disks and electronic shifting. And I love that stuff. It’s a 1x12 but I’m pretty sure I’d be happy with 1x10 or even 1x9. 13 just sounds like too much shifting 😀. My town/road bike is now 1x10, and taking off the front mech was the best thing I did. Quieter, smoother, and should last forever.
Absolutely agree. I started mountain biking in the early 90s and by the early 2000s most of the problems had been solved: proper forks with separate air/coil springs and dampers existed, same with rear shocks. Suspension geometry had improved dramatically. Rim brakes had given way to hydraulic disc brakes. Gears worked about as well as they do now, albeit with a couple fewer steps in the cassettes. Everything since then has been very much incremental.
Road bikes are simpler and have been perfectly good for longer. Now they just weigh a bit less and are a bit more aerodynamic. I guess moving away from downtube shifters was good, and maybe disc brakes, but really, compared to MTBs, the difference is less critical because rim brakes don’t destroy your wheels as fast on the road.
Get a Rohloff Hub and stop thinking about gears. Perfect for everything except light road bikes.
Rohloff is reliable and long lasting but especially for lighter persons no solution and I say it as one of zhese lighter persons and some gears take a lot of power input. I had two different bikes with the Speedhub and the only advantage I felt was that it was little maintenace while touring. But thats the etermal Rohloff versus Derailleur discussion wich leads nowhere because both are completely different. Dass Rohloff lange das gleiche Produkt verkauft hat ist gut aber dass nichts am Wirkungsgrad verbessert wurde ist ziemlich schade. Liebe Grüße
Rohloff and Pinion are well worth for casual riders and bikepackers who aren't chasing for KOM.
Still riding 9 speed Sora on my gravel bike and it shift just fine.
Brave... Mutig... Weiter so Russ. Du machst das gut und bist eine Inspiration für viele von uns hier draußen.
In this ever more confusing world you sprinkle us with simplicity and joy. Keep it up.
I am very much with you on this and appreciate your opinion pieces. Most of my bikes are DT friction shifters (bar ends just dont work with my legs) and I want to work on my bikes without having to get out an app. Mechanical shifting is where it's at for me. Unless someone let's me try their electronic shifting setup, I will never get one of those.
9s was peak, change my mind
Cycled from LA to New York with 8, so 9 is overkill. ;)
@@100sky3 if you had 9s tho you coulda peaked. I think you gotta do the trip again
For the greatest number of gears (hence the smallest jumps between gears), ease of shifting, precision of shifting, greatest range, low cost, ease of maintenance...basically pretty much everything, nine speed was the absolute peak. The one deficiency was in the ergonomics of the Shimano nine speed road shifters: the shape of the hoods was awkward and they lacked adjustable brake lever reach. If they had kept the nine speeds but made the improvements in ergonomics that have been made over the last 20+ years....well then, life would really be good, wouldn't it?
Who needs 13 speed? (Looking at my 27 speed old 26er MTB) 😂
Nine-speed was the pinnacle of gears. It has a wide enough range, but narrow enough steps to provide a usable, reliable set-up for almost all riders. I will not be taking any questions on this subject.
The opposite of enshitification is regilding . . . Like my regilded Kona 1989 Cinder Cone turned from an old frame into a non-proprietory urban/off-roader/tourer/do-it-all/8 speed/V-brake super bike. A 34 year old delight! Looks like new, rides like old. After all, analogue rules, ok! Keep up the good work and keep the faith, Russ! Us oldies will be over the mountain and on our way with the technos left behind in a welter of broken narrow chains, mismatched parts and dead batteries. And we’ll find ways to adapt the enshitted in our Mad Max future . . . Which is why I’m an 80 year old devoted follower of your channel. Keep up the good work and well done!
Agreed.
All this enshitification is also hard on smaller bike shops. Many can't afford keep up with the ever changing parts and tooling required to service everything on the market, further stratifying the industry into haves and have nots.
That's the sad part of fast fashion "hi tech" cycling, all those once valuable parts worth next to nothing gathering dust. I can buy them on clearance for a while but lots of my favourite retailers have gone bust, retired, or been bought out and are a shadow of their former selves.
It also hurts those of us who wrench on our own bikes. I don't want anymore specialty tools than I need to work on my early 2000 quill stemmed road bikes.
That is the business strategy. When a brand name bike company dominates the local market everyone from the bike company to the component supplier has more pricing power. Bike companies and component companies are working together to shut down the LBS and independent frame manufacturers.
This is one reason why bikes cost more than ducati motocycles.
@@christopheroliver148 but do you really need more specialty tools to work on a more modern bike? I serviced my MTB, including changing the travel of the fork for next week's trip using a couple of hexkeys, a 10mm spanner, an adjustable spanner and a bottom brackettool. The only specialist tool was the bottom bracket tool.
@@draugmithrin Lucky. Some of those parts seem to show up only on evilbay at nose bleed prices.
Bike component manufacturers need to follow the same path as paper towel and tissue paper manufacturers. Just like there is always somebody who needs a tissue or paper towel for something, there will always be people who need a bicycle for something. No need to try to reinvent perfection. As a result, I'm converting my bike to a 1x8. At 48 years old, I've figured out that's all I need to have a great ride.
My favorite commuter is 1x8. Works a treat for getting about town at 48 as well.
100% spot-on! I pressed the like button after the first minute, before I even watched any more. The truth is, very few people need more than a tight 8 speed cassette. Most day to day bike users are not gravel nerds, bikepacking weirdos or the marketing favourites... weekend warriors or "racers". Yet the whole cycling world's marketing strategies are based around the latter group, who typically pay more for extras on their must have audis or bmws than they do on food for their kids. Most regular folk just don't bother with the latest nonsense, we just buy what we want and/need for a reasonable price. Therefore we don't need to be "sold" such nonsense as the AI auto-carbon 15 speed one-by titancockamatic bs. We would ignore it too of we could, but the issues arise when we just want to replace worn out parts from our actually used bikes, only to be told that that ancient auld part is no longer stocked... but how about "upgrading to..."
I still don't understand the war on multiple chainrings. We had all the needed gear range already 30 years ago.
You totally nailed it. Thank you for being outspoken about this.
I rode the Paris-Brest-Paris in 1991 successfully on just a six sprocket freewheel.
No problem riding up the 'Wall of Brittany'.
I'm riding a seven now and it handles nearly all riding situations.
We have more than enough gears. I agree more range would be better than more sprockets.
Enjoyed the video as always.
Some people seem to confuse number of ratios with range, yes 3x 6 works just fine
You are 100% bang in point in your thinking.
I'm a professional mechanic, formerly team mechanic & although its my job, I also speak out about the big players in the industry giving us what we don't need, but only what they want to make more money.
The thing is, it's up to us as individuals to work it out & stop buying their latest stuff.
I also agree. Back in 2004, I bought a second-hand Ciant Cadex CFR frame, which I built up as a TT bike by using as adjustable stem. First I had 9 speed, which I upgraded to 10 speed (all I had to do was changing the insert oft the Campagnolo barend-shifter), and finally switched to 11 speed in 2020 (again I only had to modify the barend-shifter by making a groove where the shifting cable runs over, as the shifter itself offers 11 positions). This bike made (and still makes) a lot of fun to ride, even with also oldschool wheels, first a Capagnolo Shamal 12-HPW Titanium wheel set, then an (also used) HED Trispoke front wheel and a HED 3D disc rear wheel, completed with a used Specialized Trispoke rear wheel (150 Euro in 2005) and a Mavic Cosmic Carbone SSC front wheel in 2009, the only new wheels I ever bought were two Carbon front wheels, a DT Swiss ARC Dicut 62 and 80 (2022 and 2020); the 80 I can only ride together with the rear disc wheel, otherwise the ride is like a ride on a cannonball. The problem is many riders think that they will be faster on a new bike, but it is like in the Formula 1: without a sufficient engine, a good chassis is worth nothing. Already last year, I had to switch from a modified 11-23 11 speed to 11-21 ten speed with 11speed spacing by using an also modified 19/21 spiderarm from the 11-30 Ultegra cassette (I filed down the large nose from the inside profile to be able to turn it one position clockwise, so the shifting ramps are again in one line, so I still can use the 21 spocket in combination with the big ring in front) together with a 1.85mm spacer normally required for 10speed cassettes on 11speed freehubs, as whyever the 11speed cassettes were not made compatible with 8-10speed freehubs in combination with a spacer if used on a 11speed freehub, so for upgrading some pepole had to buy new rear wheels, which is now again the case (e.g. with the new Sram cassettes with a 10-teeth spocket as smallest). I will never need 12+x-speed groupsets - I don’t need such large spockets (since I started 32 years ago, I always rode with low cadences, uphill 50-70, on short, step clibs also below 40 with the big ring and the 21 spocket), and the new derailleurs are so ugly, I would not use them even if I got them as a gift.
I can't agree more with you, sadly we live in a capitalist world, where companies will grow indefinitely, profit eventually becomes the only metric. Kudos to you for standing out and saying this out loud!
Well, if you've ever seen the bikes (and cars) that were produced in Soviet Bloc countries, I don't think a communist world would would be such a great thing.
I really hate the motto that many corporations have adopted, which is, “If you’re not thriving; you’re dying.” Which goes against the reason why many people got into bicycles in the first place. Bicycles are supposed to be fun,simple, rideable machines to get around to do every day things.
I don't see the problem here: People can just not buy them? I've been running 2x9 for years and i have no problem with any new product 🤷
I bet when the 8 speed came out, some people said that the manufacturers are just doing this to cash grab.
Yes, wholly agree. Especially in the wake of lots of bike brands going under. Because they've been milked dry by share holders.
Also it has been inane trend how most brands have rolled out a new frame model every year or so, with only tiny changes.
The over consumerism is a huge issue in bike industry.
single speed or death
The angrier you get, the funnier you get, in part because it’s all true and in part because you come across as such a nice guy that the implication is that it has taken a lot to get you riled. Keep it coming!
Grant Peterson’s efforts to get a new derailer made shows how high a barrier to entry there is for components. If he struggles to line up manufacturing partners, what hope is there for anyone else? But there will always be a market for a decent 9sp cassette and derailer because it occupies a sweet spot. Eleven speeds are an embarrassment of riches and twelve are too finicky. Ten is kind of a black hole for some reason.
We will all gather our fave analog bits in cycling, watches, cameras, and audio equipment and shout jeremiads into the wind in solidarity.
For me I’d be concerned about shifting accuracy and chains being more prone to stretching and needing more regular replacement…
Agree. Making wear parts more fragile and finicky isn't an improvement at all. In a way, I'd have been happier if Campagnolo had stayed with 9 speed, and reduced the dish on the rear wheel instead of giving me an 11t I barely use.
Yes! More gears = higher maintainance / replacement cost. Amen!
Totally agree. Our problem as a consumer is compatibily between components as you rightly said it.
I think SRAM is the worst offender at the moment -- I'm trying to figure out how to go wireless on my travel bike without buying absolutely everything again. Jeeeeeeez it is crazy-making, even sticking with all SRAM. Is it Force D1 or Force D2? 5 arm or 4 arm? 10-11sp, or 12sp only? Can I use the 2022 Rival 1speed crank with the chain that will work on the 2024 Force cassette?Why can't I use a Red chain or an XX1 chain? Why isn't XX1 quality made for less than 12sp? Why won't the handlebar adapter fit on Zipp bars, despite being an SRAM company? On and on and on and on... I really just wanna go get some NOS Campy...
Amen on the Sram bit. I got so fed up with Sram at one point, I actually used a Dremel to physically remove the shifter parts from my composite 2 x 10 curly bar set. Now I have a very nice pair of composite leveres to compliment my down tube friction shifters.
@@ericpmoss UDH was pretty good change though.
2x7 is my 13-speed killer. :)
One of my mtbs has 2x10. Using a 3x10 crank so I put a bashguard on the outer. Prevents overshifting too. Low gear is same as 52 tooth 1x with an 11-36 cassette. Tighter gear ratios too.
If you buy vintage and build your own bikes then you can choose to use 7, 8, or 9 speed. The parts are still being produced and they will save you a ton of money. Luckily, almost all good bike parts are still in production right now.
sram has made my life hard with 9spd gripshift so had to go to shimano, thats about the biggest problem ive had.
Suntour freewheels were lost, sadly.
I sure hope automatic shifting is never permitted in competition.
The gizmofication of modern bikes is making them look like modern motor vehicles with giant console televisions in the dash. And here I thought we were supposed to keep our eyes on the road ahead. But it's okay, just more variety at the all-you-can-buy buffet and everything doesn't have to be for everyone. And as for me, I'm just hoping to see a 3x10 mechanical drivetrain in titanium. 😀
More range in gearing would be nice.
I’ll stick to my 1x commuter and gravel bike.
I've been doing a lot of thinking and I've come up with the solution to all of my problems in life. 14 gears and 6 chainrings up front, that should do it.
You forgot to make it wireless and with a monthly subscription fee.
I agree with what you say in general, but I will offer a defense of 12-speed. For many years after they fell from fashion, I still rode a 3x10 configuration. I resisted the pressure to move to a 2x10, because it seemed I would have to sacrifice either range or step size. When they started making 2x11 with larger cassettes, the 2x configuration began to look more appealing, but I still did not switch. 2x12 appeared around the time that I was finally thinking about replacing my 15 year-old bike. I discovered that, if I picked the right cassette, the range and step size of a 2x12 set-up would be almost identical to my much-loved 3x10. I now ride 2x12 and I am very happy with it. It requires less maintenance than my old 3x10, tolerates cross-chaining more, and is a bit better overall. Auto-shifting of the electronic front derailleur allows me to ride as if it were a 1x15, which is a luxury. Of course, none of this is essential to having fun on a bike, and if 11- and 12-speed cassettes had never been invented, I would probably enjoy my rides just as much.
Absolutely a fundamental analysis you have produced! It applies to so many business categories. You’re spot on
gear technology peaked at 10 speed
Agree. I run Chorus and Record Ergo 53/39 11-23 on a couple of custom steel bikes, and I really don't see anything in the current offerings that will bring me anything other than a thinner wallet. Also, I find modern bikes and groups pretty ugly to boot. Lose lose!
Agree.
I would love to see a video about 9 speed compatibility. In the good old days of 9 speed, could you put an XT rear derailleur and cassette on a 9 speed road bike? Are 9 speed road and mountain shifters interchangeable? Lets keep the old standers alive!
Stuck to 9 speed on my roadbike and audax bike for the mix and match option. Zero Friction Cycling was critical in his latest vid on how confusing SRAM's 12 spd chains are and customers will easily buy the wrong ones.
9 speed compatibility is easy:
All Shimano and Shimano compatible shifters and derailleurs are compatible with each other, road or mountain, from Alivio to Dura-Ace.
The 9 speed shifters are also compatible with SIS derailleurs from 6 speed to 9 speed, plus 10 speed road, except Dura-Ace from 8 speed and lower. The opposite is also true - you can use 9 speed derailleurs with lower speed shifters, plus 10 speed road.
Chains are fully compatible with each other across all systems.
Shimano and SRAM cassettes are fully compatible as they both have HG hubs. Campagnolo cassettes have their own hub, but the spacing is compatible with Shimano and SRAM.
You just need to be sure to not exceed derailleur max cassette size and capacity in all cases.
The bicycle industry is desperate to give me a reason why I should spend $3k+ to replace my 1965 Raleigh Superbe city bike. I already have something that is close enough to perfection for my needs and prying $3k out of my hands for the latest bike fad is not likely to happen. Best wishes to them but they resemble hamsters running in circular cages, going nowhere.
Bikes like you have last forever with basic maintenance. I have a couple old Raleighs. My 531 frame rides so smooth.
Love my 80's Raleigh, but it IS 3 minutes slower than my Specialized Tarmac on a 15-mile time trial.
@@pandemicratparty2277It all depends on how important that 3 minutes is to you...........?
I've been riding back to single speed or fixie a lot now. It's so obvious that the feeling of single speed chain is so straight, really fall in love with it. Even if i ride on a same gear combo, stronger chain really hit your sweet spot.
I started dabbling in SS on gravel a few years ago, and now I ride my SS cheapo bike more than my carbon fancy bike. I know it’s not practical for every person and every part of the country, but if you live in a relatively flat part of the country, SS is fun and can provide a little extra challenge, especially nice on shorter rides. It has really made me appreciate how few gears a person really needs.
@@Slappywag69 Indeed, After i don't attend any bike race, I already sold all my carbon bikes. I live in Shanghai so it's pure flat. Even when i still have a madone and another BMC TM02 TT, i already find myself only ride these two carbon bike only for racing, not for any other rides.
I agree 100%. I am NOT a luddite, but I DO NOT want Di2, Disk Brakes or BlueTooth upgrades and other planned obsolesce, etc on my road bike. 10 or 11 speed mechanical shifiting is the maximum of what I need. I do like carbon aero frames. I am going to keep my current bike for as long as possible.
Electronic shifting and disc brakes would be nice but not worth the expense and bother seeing as my mechanical shifting and rim brake setup works fine for my needs.
14 speed here on my Rohloff with a non-dished wheel 🙂
My 25-year-old 9sp titanium frame with 23 mm tires handles local cobblestones well. It was exotic back then, but can now be had for a reasonable price. But in town, my retro steel track bike (fixed) with a handbrake is sure footed (32mm) and ready for potholes. Uses 1980’s tech on a 1920’s design. Perfection.
I bought my forever bike in 1988 and it's still going strong!
I reckon the big enshitification started with push fit bottom brackets - they were introduced purely to reduce manufacturing costs and add nothing for customers except creaks.
I agree 100%.
I’ve got an upgraded 1983 Fuji Team (steel) and I’m not racing, but on the greenways, I can easily keep up with $6000+ carbon road bikes….. and whats hilarious is the dirty looks I get when they see this old 58 year old on a vintage bike keeping pace with them .
I’m not bragging at all, cause I am definitely NOT all that, but only to make the point that my vintage Fuji is still able to get down to business.
Ever shop for a digital camera? For the past 20 years we have been told we need more and more pixels in the sensors, when the reality is cameras back then had more than enough pixels for what 99% of us need. Same with wide zoom lenses. 18-200 has to be better than 18-55, right? Well, not really. But it’s a similar marketing thing. When I first started riding bikes with more than one gear, I found that I used 2 or 3 of them for most riding, and the lowest gear on the bike for climbing up hills. Recently I shopped for a new bike and one model I seriously considered was one a local bike store chain had a screaming deal on (they bought a whole mess of them for cheap) and had a fire sale on them. What stopped me? 24 gears. I knew I would only use 3 or 4 of them, so why buy another 20 gears I neither wanted or needed.
So... what about digital cameras in phones?
Good point! At first I thought it was a cute gimmick until smart phones got to be scary good cameras.
The whole product setup is focused around the cycling as a sport approach. There are quite some innovations to be made for people who cycle daily and have to maintain a small "fleet" of bikes. (We are a family of four and I have to keep roughly 10 bikes in working order at all times) Most bikes have evolved to 9-speed drivetrains, so wheels and parts are interchangeable in case of emergency. May sound a bit weird, but things like a freewheelbody that freezes in winter, of freezing brake cables, ... are always discovered at the time of departure and then you just have to work fast. There are a lot of improvements to be made, to get bike parts more wear resistant, but for now the "commuter business case" is not strong enough.
I found a late 80s bridgestone T700 at a community bike shop for $100, replaced headset, bottom bracket, wheels. Rides like dream for my daily commute.
i am fine with just 8s but i would love to have bigger gear range. i know 11-46t casette is possible with 8s but i would like even more gear range from that casette.
I want the old 105
So I bought a handbuilt Dawes Super Galaxy back in 1990, with a couple of my first pay cheques.... now in retirement I keep thinking of getting a new bike, but I can't bring myself to pull the trigger on it as I can't really see much of an advantage except perhaps a Kg or two in weight. The main reason for me to stay with what I got is maintenance on the road - it is simple to maintain and no matter where I am I'm confident I can fix my bike.
Most likely I'll go with a Brompton folding bike and the main reason is being able to use any kind of public transport when I'm on my adventures. The new 12 speed versions seem to be just right and come a solid use case over buying another full size bike.
So yes there is a lot of sense to what you say, although it probably won't be popular with some.
Are you reading my mind? Wait a minute? Are you me?
This is the exact route. I'm on retirement and Brompton wise
I'm on vacation right now in Florida and had a rare opportunity to go for a long bike ride, about 50 miles. I ride almost every day for exercise, but typically, my rides are under 15 me because, as a married father of 5, that's all I have time for. Along the way, I came across an older couple that have what look like to me to be ultra high-end carbon fiber racing bikes. They were stopping at every rest area along the trail to tune the woman's bicycle to get it dialed in.
At first I thought that they were having mechanical problems so I offered to help, but she explained that it was a new bike that she only had for 2 weeks and she was just trying to get everything dialed in. She was also expressing regret about having bought the bike because her old bike was dialed in and worked perfectly for her.
When I asked her why she got rid of her other bike, she just said that it was a very nice bike, but unfortunately, it was obsolete.
This is why Shimano is making a 13-speed drivetrain, simply because they have to do something that makes people look at what they already have and feel that somehow it is inadequate or obsolete and they have to upgrade. Meanwhile, I'm out there cranking out my 50 Mi ride on my steel frame 1999 Jamis Boss Cruiser with a single piece "Ashtabula" crank and a triple front chainring to go with my 7 speed Shimano "Megarange" freewheel.
Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against anyone having nice things. But I'm certain that the previous bike she had was also likely a high-end racing bike that was only a few years old and somehow she felt compelled to get rid of it because it wasn't the absolute most cutting-edge thing on two wheels. Just like I don't begrudge anybody who wants to own a Ferrari, even though I really couldn't give a crap a out them and I'm quite happy with my 24-year-old Toyota Camry. But the same kind of marketing you see in cars, with touch screens and all kinds of unnecessary widgets that try to convince people that the 5, 7 or 10 year old car that they are driving that is absolutely perfectly reliable and in good running condition is somehow an obsolete piece of crap so they really need to upgrade is also in just about every other facet of our highly commercialized capitalistic system.
To take that even further, I believe that's why modern appliances don't last more than a few years. They're designed to be obsolete, so you constantly have to buy new ones. There's a reason why most retail appliance stores don't carry brands like Speed Queen which build washers very similar to what you would have found in the 1960s and 1970s which are simple reliable and do the job and will last practically forever.
But a lot of people are convinced that they don't want a washing machine or a dryer that has a dial and mechanical buttons on it and no fancy touch screens and Wi-Fi connectivity.
You are what I was called when full sus bikes came out and I thought they were un-needed by anyone other than racers. I was called a "Retro Grouch". This was a name a wore with honor, and still do today! Long live the Retro Grouch! All that said, I totally agree with you!
You thought that then or do you still think that? I have never posessed a full-suspension, but owned only hardtails. I however do see the benefits of a fully, not just for racers. Depends a lot on the circumstances, personal and where you ride. Living in the Netherlands I don't feel the need for a fully and I will bring my hardtail to the Alps next week. At some point during that vacation I know I will wish I had one. Just not enough to buy one.
I used to ride MTB in the early '00's. Now it's all road and minor gravel, so, what do I know? Personally I agree with Russ, bikes have pretty much been perfected, now it's all about the $. I'm still a Retro Grouch. My favorite bike of mine is a '99 Miyata 621-ST! 😅
@@1969Rake Assuming 1969 is your year of birth we're about the same age. I'm riding MTB since 1998. A lot of the mtb-trails in the Netherlands can be ridden with a gravelbike I guess, but I don't own one. Hence the hardtails... Looked up on the Miyata, didn't find the 621, but did find about 618. Looks like a great ride, but about 10 years older.
I have full rigids, hardtails, and double-squishers. You're correct that most of the trails most people ride don't need full suspension. This is saying a lot as I live in the SF Bay Area, allegedly the birthplace of mountain-biking, and I do a lot of more challenging trails (e.g., Skeggs, which I've ridden in a full rigid). I would even argue that outside of pining on a race number, it's more engaging, fun and ultimately rewarding to underbike. However, full suspension is nicer for older riders who may have lost some of that fitness and body resilience, so there's that. Oh, and don't get me started on eBikes.
Pinion gears and Gates carbon drive belt for excellent “new” tech.
And Way more range by 12 gears❤
I can't tell you how much I was still riding my 22 lb road bike with terrible brakes, tires which flatted every week, and cotter-pinned BB's. Not to mention bar tape which was less than 0.5mm thick.
Things I still want in bike design:
- Lighter, cheaper, droppers in all sizes and with adjustable drop lengths
- Universal component standards that all bikes adhere to (standardized pull ratios and so forth)
- If electronic shifting is going to exist, they need to be open-source and repairable
-Bearings on the lower-level derailleur's jockey wheels
-and end to the ubiquitous carbon forks. I want lots of steel and ti fork options
-adjustable geo while riding? I'd love to be able to move the bars closer/further/up/down while riding to fit the terrain and activity.
They should pour that money into solid tires tech
There have been experiments, even products that you seem to desire. But nothings that really worked and had an acceptable ridequality. The ability to tune the tirepressure to my needs, depending on the terrain I'm riding seems unlikely a manageble goal with solid tires.
What keeps grinding my gears (no pun intended) is the absolutely ridiculous cassette gearing nowadays. No normal cyclist needs those tiny 11 tooth and 13 tooth cogs (at least with anything but 1x gearing). Even with a small 42 tooth largest chainring in the front I never need those cogs. I could literally swap my 9 speed gearing for 7 speed without losing anything, if they had a 15-34 or 14-34 cassette. They did make at least 13-34 cassettes in the 90s. Nowadays 14-34 gearing for 7 speed does exist, but only is sold as a freewheel.
I heartily agree with the small (10-11) tooth small cogs. I don't use them either. I still have a 13-30 6speed freewheel on one bike with 42/28 and I don't use 13. Loved when I could set up a 15 small cog. One advantage of old freewheel cog boards.
Some people do race these things. When I started, you did use the 52x13. I will agree that for mere mortals, a 53x11 is a bit stupid.
I picked up a Shimano 14-25 9 speed cassette(pretty rare, on Ebay) purposely to break apart along with another 11-36 to mix 'n' match the ratios I want...I hate the 11,12,13 cogs so much, never use the damn things as where I live is hills and undulations- no silly huge descents like the Alps and at 30mph downhill I'm usually freewheeling and watching the road for potholes and assholes....
40T front 11T rear on 29" only really gets used on strong tail wind days. Needed? Definitely not.
Beyond chain incompatibility issues is the chain fragility issue. "Back in the day", *no one* worried about breaking a chain on a ride or tour. It basically didn't happen, even if it was last removed for some reason using a nail and a rock. Now, it is a relatively common thing to be concerned about, especially in the 1X-gear trains where the chain is constantly flexed to the max both ways. While it may make sense for racers and those to wish to emulate them, more riders are probably better served with a 2X or 3X gear train with a 8-speed rear that accommodates the stronger 5- to 8-speed chain.
I agree too and there’s one thing we can do , it’s don’t buy the new tech that we don’t want and need if the companies won’t sell they’ll be forced to take a step back .
The introduction of electronic shifting was such a great opportunity to increase compatibility, since number of cogs and cog distances are all in software now. There really should be only one derailleur for all electronic drivetrains. But of course, component manufacturers want to sell components, so.....meh
I mean some chinese electronic shifters can basically handle almost any casette and chainring.
@@nebulous962 by some you mean the only one that hasn't caught up yet?😉
Electronic shifting is cheaper to manufacture just like carbon frames and bonded aluminum cranksets.
Same thing with shifters. Push one button for "harder", push a different one for "easier". Even if I wanted to add a cog, why does that necessitate changing the shifters (and bleeding/recabling brakes!!)?
Can you at least not make a "This New 13-Speed Groupset Is Actually Amazing" video once they're out?
A hundred thanks for describing our frustration with the bicycle industry. Your are the only one to step up and tell it like it is.
Longevity and durability is why I went the new old stock/steel bike route. Not to mention the INSANELY less expensive price it can come with.
Heck I did a pretty tough local ride out in Vegas and did it with no problems on a 87 Fuji 6 speed bike with downtube shifters!
I think this problem startet with 90ies MTBs: more gears in the back every 2 years, so many different headsets including proprietary solutions like Klein and Cannondale, so many seatpost diameters, suspension forks that became longer and changed geometry, rear suspension that didnt work, with all the different shock models, impossible to find spare parts vor suspension front/rear after 3 years, different disc brake standarts…the mess startet there…
I think it’s because people want cycling to be easy but they either dont understand or don’t want to believe that cycling never gets easier, you just go faster.
When you get to a certain age, it doesn't get easier, you just go slower. 😐
@@christopheroliver148 ...and then, you ponder how to get a few teeth more on the lower end without breaking the bank.
It is a universal problem. I spent 31 years as an engineer and engineering manager in a "major US aerospace company". I was never not being pressured from above to improve my team's processes and products. Even though I could show metrics that proved that the customer was satisfied with the status quo and that the drive for continuous improvement was actually a drag on employee satisfaction, and sometimes a drag on quality/safety of the finished product.
BRAVO! My go to ride is a 1972 Raleigh 3 Speed Sports. I have 3 more in the shed for parts if the unlikely happens and it wears out! My road bike is an early 80’s Centurion LeMans that I had powder coated. A very supple steel ride with 2x7 down tube friction shifters.
I loved the move to 1x drivetrains but yeah surprised they 'need' more than 12. That's a great drivetrain, it blew me away having used a 3x7 my whole life the amount of range it had with a single front cog. I now have a 10 and 12 - I do top out the 10 regularly, rarely the 12 and that's with a pretty small front cog so there's significant headroom if I wanted to go faster than 40kph on a dual suspension trail bike for some reason. Can't imagine a scenario where you need to go faster without being able to handle a slightly less ludicrous crawler gear.
The twelve speed has a smaller top cog than the 10? Perhaps it just has a bigger front?
@@rodneyhanson9884 They look similar to me but maybe, this is Deore vs SLX (mtb) maybe road groupsets are different? I'd never accuse the SLX 12sp crawler cog of being small 😂
No idea about different cassettes but you seemed to be saying the twelve speed was faster than the 10, I imagine they both have 11 tooth small cog so Would be exactly the same with the same size front ring , if one has a 10 then I’ll take that back, I’m still inclined to think your old seven speed would have a higher top gear and probably more range overall
@@rodneyhanson9884 You might be right there actually, according to 99 Spokes the 10sp with bigger front coz is 1kph faster potential. It's funny because I never max out the 12sp even down hills, so it must be down to the bike and sense of resistance (enduro vs hybrid 700c so huge difference in actual speed ofc). The old 26in 3x7 probably had a higher top potential but it was borderline unachievable - the largest of the 3 front cogs I almost never used, just didn't have the ground resistance to make any sense (90s mtb). Hence the usable gear range on the 12sp was amazing to me, I had a complete usuable range with only 12 gears. I can say the same for the 10sp, never feels lacking in range, just top speed sometimes.