I think one of the things that gets confusing with this system is that there are so many types and parts that the archetypes become a bit more obfuscated than in other systems. People want to be able to look at someone for 5 seconds and say they are such and such type and be right about it, but that doesn't actually work. You also have other systems which talk about the same kinds of things (Jung/Functions/Types) but they aren't actually looking for the same archetypes/spectrums so they seem completely different... And they are.
@@justdennisiguess8286 because being an ESTJ was hard, took a lot of effort and was very different than my usual way of being. I'm very much the meme of the daydreamer INFP that aspires to be the ESTJ
@@Kiseochan that makes sense! thank you :) For a short time I also thought I was an ISTJ but then I researched the differences between a decider and an observer and I‘m most definitely the first! hahahaha
Ok so after doing a lot of digging, researching, and watching your videos, I know for sure I'm an ENFJ. I was convinced that I was an ISTP for so long now, but I'm sure it's because I have been in an unhealthy state, under extreme stress, and now that I'm pulling myself out of it. 100%!! I've been avoiding Fe and withdrawn/introverted/depressed. After much needed introspection and examining the activities that I'm now doing in a more healthy state, I can see it so clearly now!!! Looking back at my life, 100% ENFJ!!! And you guys are so right. I've always been "seeing" my double observers the most as they are more balanced and using them frequently, but the most important thing to me is HARMONY, and being conflict avoidant. So, I'm working on approaching the areas of conflict more tactfully...coming off of that tidal wave I've been on since coming out of the pandemic. I've been suppressing my emotions and sinking into a withdrawn analytical state and ignoring priorities, and the tribe. Wow, this is so incredible when you actually see all aspects of your personality. I have not shed any tears about anything in quite a while, but they have been coming in regular intervals as I've been pulling myself out of depression. You guys are incredible!!💗💕💗💕💗 P.S. I have a friend who has come to me for support and encouragement, and he keeps calling me his guru. 🧘♀️🙏🏻💫
It’s funny, because this stuff is the only reason I know for a fact what my type is. I cannot be anything but a Blast last ENFP. Why? Because my aversion to Si is absolutely destroying my life. Don’t believe me? Well, you’re not alone; I didn’t believe all the people screaming it at me until I discovered OP. And then I suddenly realized that everything made sense, and I hated it. I can’t pinpoint a single routine I have in my life at the moment. I’ve gotten detention and suspension for constant lateness at school. Countless adults have pulled me aside to lecture me about time-management problems I have, and those lectures filled me with shame even though I refused to admit to having any of the problems in question. (Spoiler: I do have those problems. Each and every one of them. Time is an illusion for me! Where is it?? Exactly!!!) Heck, I can’t even commit to any of my hobbies, and I can’t start any of my projects because I always think I need to know more. “But Sophia, you’re just pinning these traits onto yourself because you can’t see your REAL demons!” Oh? I’m sorry. I guess when I go to the bathroom and stare into space for twenty minutes to avoid brushing my teeth, it’s Savior Si! Or when I put off starting my homework until 2:00 AM on a consistent basis… even though I sat down at my desk to start at 4:00 PM. It’s to a point that I can’t start any huge task without running around, doing ANYTHING ELSE, for hours first. I go ten steps down the procrastination ladder. I will clean the entire house to put off writing an essay. Oh, and you would think that the tasks I care about are an exception? Wrong. I’m a writer, except I’m not, because I spend 99% of the time daydreaming and perfecting it all in my head. I wrote a rough draft of a novella that I could’ve written in a week, and I put off finishing it for eight months. Why? Because the “rough draft” stage of anything TERRIFIES me- it all looks so much better in my head. It got to the point that I had to set aside a day and promise myself I would finish it then no matter what it took. And on that day, it took me FOUR HOURS to cope with the idea that I had to sit down and start writing. I kept bolting from my chair and pacing the floor erratically, trying to verbally outline all of the stuff I was going to write, just doing absolutely anything I could to get a grasp on it… and to put off actually DOING it. If someone looked through a window at my work process and saw me running around the room frantically talking to myself, they would think I looked absolutely psychotic. Because I did. And I didn’t end up finishing the draft until 3:00 AM (because I promised myself I couldn’t sleep until I got it over with). Oh, and that happened a little over a month ago, by the way. This stuff? It messes me up. I leave voids everywhere in my life because of it. I can’t chase anything I want. There are moments I actually sit down fantasizing for hours about bettering my life… meanwhile the clock ticks by and nothing gets done. Si is such a far off responsibility, and then it all just floods in out of nowhere and I come undone every time. I hate it. It drives me to levels of insanity and anxiety that shouldn’t be possible. Like, my gosh, I’m in this hole and I’m in it BAD. And it’s EVERYWHERE. I can’t pinpoint one area of my life that isn’t ruined by this. And the cherry on top is that I’m only sixteen years old, so I know for a fact that if I don’t get all this together in the next two years, I’m kinda screwed. Yay adulthood ✨ I think you end up knowing what your type is when being called any other type feels like a bit of a compliment. Not necessarily because I hate my type, but because if someone assumes I’m anything but what I am, they clearly don’t see the debilitating weaknesses that dictate my reality day by day. Still, hoping for self-betterment 😭💞
Awesome you're discovering this at 16! I'm in my late 20's. And I completely agree with you one way you know what your demons are is if you are avoidance of one of the functions destroys your life. I forget my four letters but I'm Te Ni and when I look back on my life my total absence of an internal decider makes a lot of sense to me. It feels like my life is what I've let happen to me versus what I've created, I don't have a lot of confidence in myself to make things the way I want them to be in that is suffocating. Demon feminine fi is so funny to me because when someone asks me what I like I really don't know, it takes me a few seconds or maybe minutes to decide. I'm just not aware of myself that way haha! I wish you well on your journey, all adults I think have to deal with this otherwise their unconsciousness will destroy them. Jordan Peterson has a line about you get to pick your sacrifice but you don't get to not make one. I think that relates to this, pick the sacrifice of hard self-growth work and realizing truly what your type is, or the sacrifice of the tidal waves all the time because you're unconscious and refuse to acknowledge what's really going on which means you don't have control and your life is chaotic.
Daamn, I would have thought you're a good bit older, cause your comments all read a lot more mature ^^ Or you showcase skills of a good writer :) I believe you'll get somewhere! Celebrate your small victories :)
Yo, I'm an INFP, older than you, this shit is too real. I would say, don't be too hard on yourself. Just because you can see your mistakes more and more, does not mean it's reasonable to expect that you'll stop making them. Expect to need forgiveness throughout your life. It's true what they say in these videos, progress is made in baby steps. Don't get frustrated if in a few years, your problems are basically all the same root issues. You still need to have fun and validation and relaxation. But of course, the hard work is where it's really at. The most validation comes from doing what's hardest for you. Just don't let high expectations steal your joy.
I specifically addressed the essay at the last minute thing. So I looked at it in the beginning for a brief time pretty much right when it was told to me otherwise outside of that moment my motivation would just -leave-. Then I didn’t bother writing it until last minute, but by then all my thoughts percolated in the background so it looked like I wrote it ‘last minute’ but really it was being worked on in the ‘background’ of my mind. I didn’t learn this skill until much later in university, though wish I had used it way before. * this only worked for essays that didn’t require annotation/bibliography. That part would take me 3-4x longer than the actual content and would cause me the most stress. [stress being an understatement].
I mean...I think I'm pretty open to being any type and not attached to a specific outcome. But as a self-typed INFP I can't really imagine that I'm a secret ESTJ. Though I'd be mostly flattered if someone thought I was one haha
Well maybe you'll say you're an ISTP instead of ESTJ. The backward thing might just be N vs S, T vs F or even sleep vs play and consume vs blast. So i think a lot of people wanna see a type they would like to be instead of their exact opposite. I said this bcz as an INFP, i somehow typed myself as an ENFJ ^^
@@Xayling Something I've observed every now and then is that this "upside down" is sometimes flipping the E's and I's. The "shadow type" as some would call it, and even in an analogy form it holds up: we can't see our own faces, we can only see our shadow as we look around, unless we have a mirror (so, something that reflects this information back at us, such as other people). ENFJ (Fe/Ni) and INFP (Fi/Ne) are shadows of one another in your case.
Right? I consider myself an INFP in MBTI and I am married to an ESTJ. This is exactly my response when I first heard them say that people type themselves upside down. 😂 But since this is not MBTI I guess it's slightly different.
I've been studying your stuff for several weeks now, almost doing nothing else but rewatching your videos trying to understand the system, and spend the whole last weekend trying to get a guess on what my type "could" be. The sad news is I have almost nobody to ask, except my coworkers, how they "see" me, and they have a very limited perspective (they are just co-workers). At some point I thought I hit a "turning point" when I tried to stop thinking about this stuff and get away with "ok, you just can't do it" as my "best guess". I couldn't. I've always had the feeling I'm missing something and my "best guess" wasn't good enough (Demon NE, maybe? going on from that one, 'cause I initially though I am saviour Nx). Went straight back to my computer, rewatching the videos, learning, compiling various combinations, searching for anecdotes which describe those combinations trying to figure out what matches me "best". What still bothers me are the "unconscious" saviours, 'cause for my "best guess" the saviours have to be conscious. So I'm still missing something from an outside perspective which I'm unable to get. Can't solve the puzzle, feeling sad. At least I'm certain now that my MBTI-type has been wrong all the time (I always came up as an INTJ, which clearly isn't my type after my experiences while studying your work). Great stuff btw. I have tons of fun with it (and after writing this I realize my identity might not be as strong as I thought it is *confusion*).
If you are not sure you can get typed by some kind of an expert though, for example Grey from augmented personality channel on yt can do it for like 40$, or ops can type you too but u have to be a member for at least 3 months
It's really convenient for practioners of type to make systems really intricate...and to assure people they can't possible know themselves. That way people will feel the need to get professional typing. It works even better for them if they have a program you have to pay for and complete to then pay for a typing. "Helping people" can be a very lucrative business.
I always tell people “I’m not very nurturing, I can be strict.” And they all laugh at me. I’m an ESFP who desperately wants to be an ENTJ sometimes, but the reality is that I am a feeler, like it or not!
My 65 year old esfp Aunt who is still paying off college debt and living in an apartment told me the other day that the family member she resembled most with my hyper organized ocd intj sister... 😆 😅🤣
It all started when a friend sent me a test and I got ISFP and I read a few paragraphs about what it meant, and my reaction was "No way, I love solving Sudoku" 🤣
For the longest time (Okay, 6 months), I thought I was a Fi-Ne. But it turns out I'm actually a Ti-Ne. I had my motivations reversed. I had to look more deeply at things. WHY do I think? I think for myself. I would rather make a plan on my own than bring others into it. But then when I'm around people, what do I do? I prioritize their needs and feelings. It's like I HAVE to..but I don't WANT to. My demon Fe causes me to stop thinking for myself and to do other peoples' stupid crap. Understanding your demons and saviors, it becomes clear when you focus specifically on what's introverted, what's extroverted, and how often you actually perform each function when comfortable on your own vs under pressure from others.
@@rimbas.3662 Fi-Te can still be extremely considerate of others. It's complicated. It takes time. I think the best help to seeing yourself and the functions is looking at more examples of accurately typed people than you'd instinctively think you need to see. I really like Joyce Meng's channel for that. She's not OP, but she's 100% legit. Actually her typing is, imo, definitely more accurate than Dave and Shan. Fe last doesn't look like savior Fe. Feeling doms can look alike because specific Fi values can be adopted from sources outside of you ultimately and look like tribe values, and likewise seemingly selfless peacekeeping strategies can be strongly internally motivated/selfish.
@@JosiahMcCarthy I never equated demon Fe as the same as savior Fe. I'm just curious on why people thinks that Cavey Möth has Fi first, but not Fe first. Because the individual said on the comment: "I prioritize their needs and feeling. It's like I HAVE to...but I don't WANT to". That sounds like human need for tribe validation, which in this case is Fe because the person is responsible to prioritize people's needs, even though the person said he/she doesn't want to. If it's Fi user, it's prioritizing self first and then other people's needs later. So I'm wondering why is this person an INFP but not ENFJ or ESFJ
I talked about Savior/Demons with my therapist earlier (today), i keep switching my belief about my leads, i used to think i'm lead Ti, but in accordance to my therapist i'm probably lead Fe that was "traumatized", somehow, very early and then forced myself into Ti. I'm really confused anyway, mostly because i used to think i was very introspective but if i think about the understanding of my inner world i see it being very whack and primitive, while i hold a very "bad identity" in relation to other people (i have a friend on the other side of the ocean who i never seen in real life with whom i have "shared depressed states", in that when i'm heavily depressed i usually find out that she is at the very same time, even with the timezones problem. This is probably an unhinged Fe more than any sort of magical link). I'm trying hard to find out, but i probably will have to wait until i will be able to pay your service of typing...
@@drwizarrd4421 not quite, but i've roughly explained the thing in the last sessions. But most of what i "understood" was from what she said and tried to convert it in cognitive functions. Though most of the things i wrote in the precedent comment came up from the therapy. She said many times that i have a low sense of identity, and even if not in Objective Personality terms it kind of makes sense crossing the concepts
If you’re traumatized it could be that you never felt “safe” really exploiting your saviour function in a healthy way. OP (or others) might still recognize Fe saviour in you because it shows up in your life, you would still have that “pile”.
Being the smart kid in the family but not the pretty, social, popular one. I wanted to be my sister so bad growing up, and in return, she wanted to be me. Weird how what comes naturally to everyone else seems so much more appealing than what we already have.
This principle is part of the reason I question my own types semi-regularly (supposed INTP/Enneagram 9). Just spoke with someone (in the context of enneagram). She’s likely an ENTJ/8 (challenger), but gets frustrated by the enneagram because she says “well I don’t WANT people to find me intimidating”… I wanted to say “nobody cares about what you WANT to convey. I may have been wanting to become a super fast runner in a couple years, but in reality I’ve simply moved from average, to a slightly faster average.. I couldn’t roll down a hill to my death at the pace Olympic marathoners run”
Very true. When I first got into the typing community I thought I was an ENFP, then for a while I was convinced I was Se/Ti CP, it took a lot of processing to realize I am (probably) Ni/Ti SBC Play last
@@kurjaesitys A demon can also be the tertiary or auxiliary function of the Grant stack, depending on the type. But yes, IxTP is the only one guaranteed to have demon Fe, and it's last (=inferior).
every time I ask people if I'm nice they'd say no but I myself I think I'm actually very nice and loving 💁🏻♀️💁🏻♀️ and I know that what I need in life is like a structured routine (Si) but then somehow at the end of the day I always end up staying up too late to do some unimportant stuff like randomly writing this comment when I was aware that this video was out a day or so ago but only now when I'd have to do something I find the time to do it 😌😌🙃
Typing yourself upside down is a decent indication that you are pushing yourself INTO your demons, so keep going;) You just don't have the damn language of typology to measure it yet. And the averaging of tribe consensus / YT comments / etc... heavy Je/De from these two, which makes sense:D
It's not really a question of if it's accurate. It's a question of whether it's valid and repeatable. Peterson did an entire lecture in 2014 regarding Psychometrics ie. psychological measurements. Dave and Shan have done videos regarding the Big 5. Big 5 is a completely different thing from MBTI/OPS. Personally I'd say that MBTI type tests don't really work well in test form. Dave and Shan's system works a lot better but they don't use "tests" like written tests they use a system of evaluation conducted by an OPS trained person.
They think that the Big 5 is "one of the best damn things that could ever happen to the world of personality psychology". That is an exact quote from Dave. But Peterson didn't invent it. czcams.com/video/cZWcz_yoEFE/video.html czcams.com/video/965qqjCyZ1U/video.html
It’s funny that you mention the Big Five. I think that just as with the MBTI type tests, people can take a Five Factor test and type themselves completely upside down. For example somebody with high conscientiousness rating themselves as low in in conscientiousness because they have this obsession with seeing themselves as way more open to experience than they’ll ever be.
I don't see my self a organizer but I get iffy feeling just letting people do what they do and end up messing everything up. So we need to shift there perspective or or control the perception. Hehehe
I still struggle with my type a lot! I feel like I‘ve done a lot of research on it and asked other people how they perceive me. But I still have no clue if I‘m either an ESTJ or an INFP. Which is weird because they are essentially very different! But whenever I look at characters or other people with these types, I tend to relate to both of them very much! Can anybody relate to this and tell me where to look at?
What are you doing the majority of the day: getting stuff done or consuming and living in your head? (Like actually try to time yourself) Are you comfortable with your opinions or do you tend to explain yourself? Those are the first two questions I asked myself when I had the same problem you are talking about :)
@@talorix Thank you so much! :) I‘m glad I‘m not the first one to struggle with this! I really should look into that! Often times I‘m alone with my thoughts and imaginations and if I have nothing important to do, I tend to stay there but if I have to study for a test I really try to get things done! Because academic validation is really important to me! Thank you again! :))
Please compare Ne and Te on tribe v. self basis. Maybe defining these wrong is why there is a perceived imbalance in how many are in each type. One can Ti the heck out of the tribe and also seek the role of giving it options for the future. Indeed, it is required to do this well. Does Ne give information to the tribe or take it from the tribe? Is Fe giving fellowship to the tribe or adopting its values? How is adopting tribe values and adopting tribe views of reality the same or different? Aren't all E v I questions really self vs. tribe? Ne does not seem like it gathers info from the tribe so much as gives options to it. If Ne is just getting information from the tribe, is it useful? Giving it information seems more likely (regardless of role in tribe). Indeed, giving the tribe information that it does not want is more Ne than Te. Ti this question a bit more, please.
Ni is more making a plan for the self than gathering information for the self. Se not like being told what to do may have more to do with Ni than Se. Ni has the plan to do Se for the tribe - either as a gift to it or conformity with it.
People and tribes have values, thoughts, plans and realities. All are both information and people things. Either that or I am an ESTJ rather than an ENTP or an ISTJ rather than an INTP. I am not a nurse.
@@michaelbindner9883 I agree that all extroverted functions could be viewed as 'tribe' and all introverted ones could be viewed as 'self'. Ne likes to gives other people options or perspectives who do not see them themselves. Also, a Ne person typically likes making observations together with other people (tribe?). So when 2 Ne doms watch tv, they will constantly talk a lot during it and want to share their Ne observations instantly and they typically will like hearing the perspective of the other person too. It's an exchange of perspectives, so to say. Observation is a "tribe activity" for them and they will typically feel responsible for making sure everyone has all possible perspectives and energize others with Ne humor (funny perspectives). You could call all of these things 'tribe', in some sense. They are simply not tribe _judgements_ like Te or Fe. The opposite seems true for a function like Si. When they do things with their Si like let's say maintaining their house, they might have strong and individual opinions on how that process must look like (Si) which will make them annoyed with working together with others who do not follow their procedures exactly in the way they view as correct. So you could say Si is very individually (self) focussed and could be called a _self perspective_ . It seems to me that objective personality typically simplifies typology terms by using simple words like 'tribe/self', possibly because it makes the masses have an easier time understanding it better, However, this comes at the pricess of losing some of it's accuracy in the process. When you first learn about actual animals, you may say that reptiles are green. However, while it is often true and makes it easier to recognize the group, it's not really accurate in the end.
Dave and Shan. What do you think of type symbolism. I mean for example INTPs are owls 🦉 , etc. Would you please put an animal for each kind of ST ( that would be 4 animals) ( Play, blast, sleep, consume) and so on. Do them for ST, NF, SF, and NT. So they will be 16 animals in total. Thanks a lot 👍🏼👏🏼💐😘
I've been taking the 16 types test about once a week for a few months now. IN is the only consistency. I've led a life with many variables to deal with in a lot of different situations . It doesn't seem to be so much dependent on mood, or recent events and I rarely respond in the extreme on any of the questions/statements. Am I a noncommittal idiot, or just a well balanced, rational, adaptable person?
Neither, you're just using a shitty pseudoscientific test and not tracking yourself objectively. Even if you could use 16personalities reliably, it wouldn't work, because it only understands a certain small part of the bellcurve for each type. It doesn't understand that there are high-energy, extraverted people with a lead introverted function. It doesn't understand lead-Play types like Ne/Fe or lead-Sleep types like Ti/Si. There's nothing that all "IN__" types even have in common besides having an introverted function first. You're being misled.
@@TheRealFlenuan I know. The comment was mostly a joke :P That test is mathematical and has no nuance. Depending on how you feel you can type yourself as almost anything.
In science, validity refers to accuracy; if something is not accurate, it is not valid. Just as reliability applies at multiple levels of the scientific process, so too does validity. Measurement validity refers to how valid, or accurate, a measure is. Validity and reliability are both key points you need to examine in any research study. For a study to be reliable the same experiment must be conducted under the same conditions to generate the same results. For a research study to have validity you must look at several aspects. Internal validity dictates how an experimental design is structured and encompasses all of the steps of the scientific research method. External validity is the process of examining the results and questioning whether there are any other possible causal relationships. As Dave and Shan and the OPS team have done this by utilizing the cognitive functions, what is there not to be valid?
I spend my time digging for interesting music and conversations on CZcams. I play guitar for hours. I journal and draw... Am I INFJ? That's what I always get.
Rather than asking CZcams comments why not go figure it out by asking people in your actual life what's most annoying about you. You can't figure your type out based on a few random anecdotes like that.
Taking into account the title of the video: you’re probably the opposite of what you think. ;) So more along the lines of ISFP or ISTP. But who knows.. it takes a while of getting to know a person to properly type them.
You'll likely disregard this feedback, but as quality as so much of your analysis/content is, I cannot share your videos with my wife and children and some of my friends or employees. Why? Because it's lathered in swear words. I don't mind that stuff at all. Many don't. But many do. You will cut your potential audience by something more than half by not having the discipline to cut that stuff out of your content.
I think one of the things that gets confusing with this system is that there are so many types and parts that the archetypes become a bit more obfuscated than in other systems. People want to be able to look at someone for 5 seconds and say they are such and such type and be right about it, but that doesn't actually work.
You also have other systems which talk about the same kinds of things (Jung/Functions/Types) but they aren't actually looking for the same archetypes/spectrums so they seem completely different... And they are.
Real people aren't a handful of simple archetypes. And even those who are won't be able to see it in themselves.
I was super proud of myself during the week and a half I was able to role play as the ESTJ.
-INFP
Can you help me out? I have no clue if I‘m an ESTJ or an INFP. How did you find out you were just pretending to be an ESTJ?
@@justdennisiguess8286 because being an ESTJ was hard, took a lot of effort and was very different than my usual way of being. I'm very much the meme of the daydreamer INFP that aspires to be the ESTJ
A lot of times when I've stretched the Te muscle I wind up not going through all the way and come out looking more like an ISTJ.
@@Kiseochan that makes sense! thank you :) For a short time I also thought I was an ISTJ but then I researched the differences between a decider and an observer and I‘m most definitely the first! hahahaha
Ok so after doing a lot of digging, researching, and watching your videos, I know for sure I'm an ENFJ. I was convinced that I was an ISTP for so long now, but I'm sure it's because I have been in an unhealthy state, under extreme stress, and now that I'm pulling myself out of it. 100%!! I've been avoiding Fe and withdrawn/introverted/depressed. After much needed introspection and examining the activities that I'm now doing in a more healthy state, I can see it so clearly now!!! Looking back at my life, 100% ENFJ!!! And you guys are so right. I've always been "seeing" my double observers the most as they are more balanced and using them frequently, but the most important thing to me is HARMONY, and being conflict avoidant. So, I'm working on approaching the areas of conflict more tactfully...coming off of that tidal wave I've been on since coming out of the pandemic. I've been suppressing my emotions and sinking into a withdrawn analytical state and ignoring priorities, and the tribe. Wow, this is so incredible when you actually see all aspects of your personality. I have not shed any tears about anything in quite a while, but they have been coming in regular intervals as I've been pulling myself out of depression. You guys are incredible!!💗💕💗💕💗
P.S. I have a friend who has come to me for support and encouragement, and he keeps calling me his guru. 🧘♀️🙏🏻💫
Meanwhile half the comments to this video are gonna be "aS a sELf-tYpEd eNtJ, i ReLaTe…"
@Augmented Personality for real!
HAHAHA
It’s funny, because this stuff is the only reason I know for a fact what my type is. I cannot be anything but a Blast last ENFP. Why? Because my aversion to Si is absolutely destroying my life.
Don’t believe me? Well, you’re not alone; I didn’t believe all the people screaming it at me until I discovered OP. And then I suddenly realized that everything made sense, and I hated it. I can’t pinpoint a single routine I have in my life at the moment. I’ve gotten detention and suspension for constant lateness at school. Countless adults have pulled me aside to lecture me about time-management problems I have, and those lectures filled me with shame even though I refused to admit to having any of the problems in question. (Spoiler: I do have those problems. Each and every one of them. Time is an illusion for me! Where is it?? Exactly!!!) Heck, I can’t even commit to any of my hobbies, and I can’t start any of my projects because I always think I need to know more. “But Sophia, you’re just pinning these traits onto yourself because you can’t see your REAL demons!” Oh? I’m sorry. I guess when I go to the bathroom and stare into space for twenty minutes to avoid brushing my teeth, it’s Savior Si! Or when I put off starting my homework until 2:00 AM on a consistent basis… even though I sat down at my desk to start at 4:00 PM. It’s to a point that I can’t start any huge task without running around, doing ANYTHING ELSE, for hours first. I go ten steps down the procrastination ladder. I will clean the entire house to put off writing an essay. Oh, and you would think that the tasks I care about are an exception? Wrong. I’m a writer, except I’m not, because I spend 99% of the time daydreaming and perfecting it all in my head. I wrote a rough draft of a novella that I could’ve written in a week, and I put off finishing it for eight months. Why? Because the “rough draft” stage of anything TERRIFIES me- it all looks so much better in my head. It got to the point that I had to set aside a day and promise myself I would finish it then no matter what it took. And on that day, it took me FOUR HOURS to cope with the idea that I had to sit down and start writing. I kept bolting from my chair and pacing the floor erratically, trying to verbally outline all of the stuff I was going to write, just doing absolutely anything I could to get a grasp on it… and to put off actually DOING it. If someone looked through a window at my work process and saw me running around the room frantically talking to myself, they would think I looked absolutely psychotic. Because I did. And I didn’t end up finishing the draft until 3:00 AM (because I promised myself I couldn’t sleep until I got it over with). Oh, and that happened a little over a month ago, by the way.
This stuff? It messes me up. I leave voids everywhere in my life because of it. I can’t chase anything I want. There are moments I actually sit down fantasizing for hours about bettering my life… meanwhile the clock ticks by and nothing gets done. Si is such a far off responsibility, and then it all just floods in out of nowhere and I come undone every time. I hate it. It drives me to levels of insanity and anxiety that shouldn’t be possible. Like, my gosh, I’m in this hole and I’m in it BAD. And it’s EVERYWHERE. I can’t pinpoint one area of my life that isn’t ruined by this. And the cherry on top is that I’m only sixteen years old, so I know for a fact that if I don’t get all this together in the next two years, I’m kinda screwed. Yay adulthood ✨
I think you end up knowing what your type is when being called any other type feels like a bit of a compliment. Not necessarily because I hate my type, but because if someone assumes I’m anything but what I am, they clearly don’t see the debilitating weaknesses that dictate my reality day by day.
Still, hoping for self-betterment 😭💞
Awesome you're discovering this at 16! I'm in my late 20's. And I completely agree with you one way you know what your demons are is if you are avoidance of one of the functions destroys your life. I forget my four letters but I'm Te Ni and when I look back on my life my total absence of an internal decider makes a lot of sense to me. It feels like my life is what I've let happen to me versus what I've created, I don't have a lot of confidence in myself to make things the way I want them to be in that is suffocating. Demon feminine fi is so funny to me because when someone asks me what I like I really don't know, it takes me a few seconds or maybe minutes to decide. I'm just not aware of myself that way haha!
I wish you well on your journey, all adults I think have to deal with this otherwise their unconsciousness will destroy them. Jordan Peterson has a line about you get to pick your sacrifice but you don't get to not make one. I think that relates to this, pick the sacrifice of hard self-growth work and realizing truly what your type is, or the sacrifice of the tidal waves all the time because you're unconscious and refuse to acknowledge what's really going on which means you don't have control and your life is chaotic.
Daamn, I would have thought you're a good bit older, cause your comments all read a lot more mature ^^ Or you showcase skills of a good writer :)
I believe you'll get somewhere! Celebrate your small victories :)
@@someonerandom713 Yes! Small victories aren't small, everyone starts by crawling!
Yo, I'm an INFP, older than you, this shit is too real. I would say, don't be too hard on yourself. Just because you can see your mistakes more and more, does not mean it's reasonable to expect that you'll stop making them. Expect to need forgiveness throughout your life. It's true what they say in these videos, progress is made in baby steps. Don't get frustrated if in a few years, your problems are basically all the same root issues. You still need to have fun and validation and relaxation. But of course, the hard work is where it's really at. The most validation comes from doing what's hardest for you. Just don't let high expectations steal your joy.
I specifically addressed the essay at the last minute thing. So I looked at it in the beginning for a brief time pretty much right when it was told to me otherwise outside of that moment my motivation would just -leave-. Then I didn’t bother writing it until last minute, but by then all my thoughts percolated in the background so it looked like I wrote it ‘last minute’ but really it was being worked on in the ‘background’ of my mind. I didn’t learn this skill until much later in university, though wish I had used it way before. * this only worked for essays that didn’t require annotation/bibliography. That part would take me 3-4x longer than the actual content and would cause me the most stress. [stress being an understatement].
I mean...I think I'm pretty open to being any type and not attached to a specific outcome. But as a self-typed INFP I can't really imagine that I'm a secret ESTJ. Though I'd be mostly flattered if someone thought I was one haha
Well maybe you'll say you're an ISTP instead of ESTJ. The backward thing might just be N vs S, T vs F or even sleep vs play and consume vs blast.
So i think a lot of people wanna see a type they would like to be instead of their exact opposite.
I said this bcz as an INFP, i somehow typed myself as an ENFJ ^^
so is this a universal thing for an ESTJ or an INFP to be confused about which one they are?
@@Xayling Something I've observed every now and then is that this "upside down" is sometimes flipping the E's and I's. The "shadow type" as some would call it, and even in an analogy form it holds up: we can't see our own faces, we can only see our shadow as we look around, unless we have a mirror (so, something that reflects this information back at us, such as other people).
ENFJ (Fe/Ni) and INFP (Fi/Ne) are shadows of one another in your case.
Right? I consider myself an INFP in MBTI and I am married to an ESTJ. This is exactly my response when I first heard them say that people type themselves upside down. 😂 But since this is not MBTI I guess it's slightly different.
Are you organizing people around you?
I've been studying your stuff for several weeks now, almost doing nothing else but rewatching your videos trying to understand the system, and spend the whole last weekend trying to get a guess on what my type "could" be. The sad news is I have almost nobody to ask, except my coworkers, how they "see" me, and they have a very limited perspective (they are just co-workers). At some point I thought I hit a "turning point" when I tried to stop thinking about this stuff and get away with "ok, you just can't do it" as my "best guess". I couldn't. I've always had the feeling I'm missing something and my "best guess" wasn't good enough (Demon NE, maybe? going on from that one, 'cause I initially though I am saviour Nx). Went straight back to my computer, rewatching the videos, learning, compiling various combinations, searching for anecdotes which describe those combinations trying to figure out what matches me "best". What still bothers me are the "unconscious" saviours, 'cause for my "best guess" the saviours have to be conscious. So I'm still missing something from an outside perspective which I'm unable to get. Can't solve the puzzle, feeling sad. At least I'm certain now that my MBTI-type has been wrong all the time (I always came up as an INTJ, which clearly isn't my type after my experiences while studying your work). Great stuff btw. I have tons of fun with it (and after writing this I realize my identity might not be as strong as I thought it is *confusion*).
If you are not sure you can get typed by some kind of an expert though, for example Grey from augmented personality channel on yt can do it for like 40$, or ops can type you too but u have to be a member for at least 3 months
sounds like savior De, only gathering gathering and not organising into a final conclusion, you never collected enough info. ExxP
It's really convenient for practioners of type to make systems really intricate...and to assure people they can't possible know themselves. That way people will feel the need to get professional typing. It works even better for them if they have a program you have to pay for and complete to then pay for a typing.
"Helping people" can be a very lucrative business.
Wild guess, dont@me: Te-Fi, Movement type, Systematic
I always tell people “I’m not very nurturing, I can be strict.” And they all laugh at me. I’m an ESFP who desperately wants to be an ENTJ sometimes, but the reality is that I am a feeler, like it or not!
lol same i am an isfp and desperately wanna be an intj
My 65 year old esfp Aunt who is still paying off college debt and living in an apartment told me the other day that the family member she resembled most with my hyper organized ocd intj sister... 😆 😅🤣
love that username
@@morningstarhomestead this is hilarious, and very relatable 😆
@@drwizarrd4421 thank you! 😀 Shower thoughts are the best thoughts.
If three people tell you you’re a horse, you might wanna go get saddled. 😋
Or be more careful in the locker room.
It all started when a friend sent me a test and I got ISFP and I read a few paragraphs about what it meant, and my reaction was "No way, I love solving Sudoku" 🤣
I've done several personality tests and come up with ENTJ and my friend who's MBTI geek typed me as an INTP but i feel like I'm somewhere in between
For the longest time (Okay, 6 months), I thought I was a Fi-Ne. But it turns out I'm actually a Ti-Ne. I had my motivations reversed. I had to look more deeply at things. WHY do I think? I think for myself. I would rather make a plan on my own than bring others into it. But then when I'm around people, what do I do? I prioritize their needs and feelings. It's like I HAVE to..but I don't WANT to. My demon Fe causes me to stop thinking for myself and to do other peoples' stupid crap. Understanding your demons and saviors, it becomes clear when you focus specifically on what's introverted, what's extroverted, and how often you actually perform each function when comfortable on your own vs under pressure from others.
Sounds like something INFP would say.
Fi-Ne's written all over you.
@@winifsan3873 Hmm, why do you think it's Fi? isn't it supposed to be savior Fe that prioritizes feeling of others?
@@rimbas.3662 Fi-Te can still be extremely considerate of others. It's complicated. It takes time. I think the best help to seeing yourself and the functions is looking at more examples of accurately typed people than you'd instinctively think you need to see. I really like Joyce Meng's channel for that. She's not OP, but she's 100% legit. Actually her typing is, imo, definitely more accurate than Dave and Shan.
Fe last doesn't look like savior Fe. Feeling doms can look alike because specific Fi values can be adopted from sources outside of you ultimately and look like tribe values, and likewise seemingly selfless peacekeeping strategies can be strongly internally motivated/selfish.
@@JosiahMcCarthy I never equated demon Fe as the same as savior Fe. I'm just curious on why people thinks that Cavey Möth has Fi first, but not Fe first. Because the individual said on the comment: "I prioritize their needs and feeling. It's like I HAVE to...but I don't WANT to". That sounds like human need for tribe validation, which in this case is Fe because the person is responsible to prioritize people's needs, even though the person said he/she doesn't want to. If it's Fi user, it's prioritizing self first and then other people's needs later. So I'm wondering why is this person an INFP but not ENFJ or ESFJ
I talked about Savior/Demons with my therapist earlier (today), i keep switching my belief about my leads, i used to think i'm lead Ti, but in accordance to my therapist i'm probably lead Fe that was "traumatized", somehow, very early and then forced myself into Ti. I'm really confused anyway, mostly because i used to think i was very introspective but if i think about the understanding of my inner world i see it being very whack and primitive, while i hold a very "bad identity" in relation to other people (i have a friend on the other side of the ocean who i never seen in real life with whom i have "shared depressed states", in that when i'm heavily depressed i usually find out that she is at the very same time, even with the timezones problem. This is probably an unhinged Fe more than any sort of magical link). I'm trying hard to find out, but i probably will have to wait until i will be able to pay your service of typing...
Health care professionals recognize the cognitive functions?
@@drwizarrd4421 if they’re trained in it, why not? Jungian therapy is def a thing
@@drwizarrd4421 not quite, but i've roughly explained the thing in the last sessions. But most of what i "understood" was from what she said and tried to convert it in cognitive functions. Though most of the things i wrote in the precedent comment came up from the therapy. She said many times that i have a low sense of identity, and even if not in Objective Personality terms it kind of makes sense crossing the concepts
If you’re traumatized it could be that you never felt “safe” really exploiting your saviour function in a healthy way. OP (or others) might still recognize Fe saviour in you because it shows up in your life, you would still have that “pile”.
Being the smart kid in the family but not the pretty, social, popular one. I wanted to be my sister so bad growing up, and in return, she wanted to be me. Weird how what comes naturally to everyone else seems so much more appealing than what we already have.
This principle is part of the reason I question my own types semi-regularly (supposed INTP/Enneagram 9).
Just spoke with someone (in the context of enneagram). She’s likely an ENTJ/8 (challenger), but gets frustrated by the enneagram because she says “well I don’t WANT people to find me intimidating”… I wanted to say “nobody cares about what you WANT to convey. I may have been wanting to become a super fast runner in a couple years, but in reality I’ve simply moved from average, to a slightly faster average.. I couldn’t roll down a hill to my death at the pace Olympic marathoners run”
Very true. When I first got into the typing community I thought I was an ENFP, then for a while I was convinced I was Se/Ti CP, it took a lot of processing to realize I am (probably) Ni/Ti SBC Play last
The solution to doing your demons is weed.
That might be especially true for an ST saviour 😂
@@someonerandom713 :D
yeaaahhh noo, Si demon on weed is not the way to go
@@JohnnyRapide Please explain? Thank you.
But but…I don’t WANNA be an annoying ass!!
*cries in demon F-Fe*
Which type has demon Fe?
I don't want to be annoying...but the more I avoid it, the worse it gets.
@@nolimit6377 IXTP’S
@@kurjaesitys A demon can also be the tertiary or auxiliary function of the Grant stack, depending on the type. But yes, IxTP is the only one guaranteed to have demon Fe, and it's last (=inferior).
@Wendy Bird I think you missed the point of the video
every time I ask people if I'm nice they'd say no but I myself I think I'm actually very nice and loving 💁🏻♀️💁🏻♀️ and I know that what I need in life is like a structured routine (Si) but then somehow at the end of the day I always end up staying up too late to do some unimportant stuff like randomly writing this comment when I was aware that this video was out a day or so ago but only now when I'd have to do something I find the time to do it 😌😌🙃
Typing yourself upside down is a decent indication that you are pushing yourself INTO your demons, so keep going;) You just don't have the damn language of typology to measure it yet.
And the averaging of tribe consensus / YT comments / etc... heavy Je/De from these two, which makes sense:D
In your opinions Dave and Shan, how accurate is Jordan Peterson's big five personality test?
accurate in what?
I mean it's a different system. Less confusing and outdated for sure.
It's not really a question of if it's accurate. It's a question of whether it's valid and repeatable. Peterson did an entire lecture in 2014 regarding Psychometrics ie. psychological measurements. Dave and Shan have done videos regarding the Big 5. Big 5 is a completely different thing from MBTI/OPS.
Personally I'd say that MBTI type tests don't really work well in test form. Dave and Shan's system works a lot better but they don't use "tests" like written tests they use a system of evaluation conducted by an OPS trained person.
You realize he didn't invent it right
They think that the Big 5 is "one of the best damn things that could ever happen to the world of personality psychology". That is an exact quote from Dave. But Peterson didn't invent it.
czcams.com/video/cZWcz_yoEFE/video.html
czcams.com/video/965qqjCyZ1U/video.html
It’s funny that you mention the Big Five. I think that just as with the MBTI type tests, people can take a Five Factor test and type themselves completely upside down. For example somebody with high conscientiousness rating themselves as low in in conscientiousness because they have this obsession with seeing themselves as way more open to experience than they’ll ever be.
So you are saying I'm secretly an ESTJ?
I don't see my self a organizer but I get iffy feeling just letting people do what they do and end up messing everything up. So we need to shift there perspective or or control the perception. Hehehe
What does life pile means??
Your life story. That is...
I still struggle with my type a lot! I feel like I‘ve done a lot of research on it and asked other people how they perceive me. But I still have no clue if I‘m either an ESTJ or an INFP. Which is weird because they are essentially very different! But whenever I look at characters or other people with these types, I tend to relate to both of them very much! Can anybody relate to this and tell me where to look at?
What are you doing the majority of the day: getting stuff done or consuming and living in your head? (Like actually try to time yourself) Are you comfortable with your opinions or do you tend to explain yourself? Those are the first two questions I asked myself when I had the same problem you are talking about :)
@@talorix Thank you so much! :)
I‘m glad I‘m not the first one to struggle with this! I really should look into that! Often times I‘m alone with my thoughts and imaginations and if I have nothing important to do, I tend to stay there but if I have to study for a test I really try to get things done! Because academic validation is really important to me!
Thank you again! :))
@@justdennisiguess8286 functions can develop. our childhood behaviors can be the best way to determine which one is dominant
It would be fun to type Marvin and how he viewed types.
Im sick of doing T i it burns my brain its so fucking dumb i want to think about real stuff like a human being
Practice the functions Se and Ni if you can.
Hey Neil, you can totally not have a social filter until you're like, 8.
As an ISTP I cannot relate to any of this.
True. Ive been confused. I was relating to Entp,s. A friend of mine assisted me in figuring out I'm An esfj.
Please compare Ne and Te on tribe v. self basis. Maybe defining these wrong is why there is a perceived imbalance in how many are in each type. One can Ti the heck out of the tribe and also seek the role of giving it options for the future. Indeed, it is required to do this well. Does Ne give information to the tribe or take it from the tribe? Is Fe giving fellowship to the tribe or adopting its values? How is adopting tribe values and adopting tribe views of reality the same or different?
Aren't all E v I questions really self vs. tribe? Ne does not seem like it gathers info from the tribe so much as gives options to it. If Ne is just getting information from the tribe, is it useful? Giving it information seems more likely (regardless of role in tribe). Indeed, giving the tribe information that it does not want is more Ne than Te. Ti this question a bit more, please.
Ni is more making a plan for the self than gathering information for the self. Se not like being told what to do may have more to do with Ni than Se. Ni has the plan to do Se for the tribe - either as a gift to it or conformity with it.
It is Se that senses what the tribe needs. It can respond by conforming or providing.
People and tribes have values, thoughts, plans and realities. All are both information and people things. Either that or I am an ESTJ rather than an ENTP or an ISTJ rather than an INTP. I am not a nurse.
@@michaelbindner9883 I agree that all extroverted functions could be viewed as 'tribe' and all introverted ones could be viewed as 'self'. Ne likes to gives other people options or perspectives who do not see them themselves. Also, a Ne person typically likes making observations together with other people (tribe?). So when 2 Ne doms watch tv, they will constantly talk a lot during it and want to share their Ne observations instantly and they typically will like hearing the perspective of the other person too. It's an exchange of perspectives, so to say. Observation is a "tribe activity" for them and they will typically feel responsible for making sure everyone has all possible perspectives and energize others with Ne humor (funny perspectives). You could call all of these things 'tribe', in some sense. They are simply not tribe _judgements_ like Te or Fe.
The opposite seems true for a function like Si. When they do things with their Si like let's say maintaining their house, they might have strong and individual opinions on how that process must look like (Si) which will make them annoyed with working together with others who do not follow their procedures exactly in the way they view as correct. So you could say Si is very individually (self) focussed and could be called a _self perspective_ .
It seems to me that objective personality typically simplifies typology terms by using simple words like 'tribe/self', possibly because it makes the masses have an easier time understanding it better, However, this comes at the pricess of losing some of it's accuracy in the process. When you first learn about actual animals, you may say that reptiles are green. However, while it is often true and makes it easier to recognize the group, it's not really accurate in the end.
Aspirational nature of the inferior function. Dave all fired up from his 4Se like this is new information.
Y'all are always making me doubt myself, like I know I'm a lazy piece of shit who procrastinates my responsibilities, but what if I AM an ESFJ?
Wants to look good, but can't keep stains off of shirt or tie.
First 🥇 Don't hate my Se...
Annoying ASS!! 😉🥰
Whoa...it's extraverted sensing. I wonder how it works.
Dave and Shan. What do you think of type symbolism. I mean for example INTPs are owls 🦉
, etc. Would you please put an animal for each kind of ST ( that would be 4 animals) ( Play, blast, sleep, consume) and so on. Do them for ST, NF, SF, and NT. So they will be 16 animals in total.
Thanks a lot 👍🏼👏🏼💐😘
Study a bit in animal behavior please. Thanks legends.
I don't know I just duel in tcg 24/7
My new girlfriend is very close-minded, how can I open it chat?
When i watch there, im an ENFJ when i watch here i dont know who im i?
What does the Savior in this video mean?
tf was that last clip
sooo, my friends see me as objective,smart,advisor and a voice of reason but i wanna see my se;f as human rights activist. INTP?/
I've been taking the 16 types test about once a week for a few months now.
IN is the only consistency.
I've led a life with many variables to deal with in a lot of different situations .
It doesn't seem to be so much dependent on mood, or recent events and I rarely respond in the extreme on any of the questions/statements.
Am I a noncommittal idiot, or just a well balanced, rational, adaptable person?
Neither, you're just using a shitty pseudoscientific test and not tracking yourself objectively. Even if you could use 16personalities reliably, it wouldn't work, because it only understands a certain small part of the bellcurve for each type. It doesn't understand that there are high-energy, extraverted people with a lead introverted function. It doesn't understand lead-Play types like Ne/Fe or lead-Sleep types like Ti/Si. There's nothing that all "IN__" types even have in common besides having an introverted function first. You're being misled.
@@TheRealFlenuan I know. The comment was mostly a joke :P That test is mathematical and has no nuance. Depending on how you feel you can type yourself as almost anything.
What is in Shans hair
lol that bothered me the entire time. surely they know it's there so why not address it and why was it intentional 😅
I think we all know.
@@kevrokka.d.9749 oh no
Are these video clips from their classes?
Can someone please tell me which david and tom are they talking about so i can Google it
Tom Bilyeu and David Bayer
omg they are the same person
First make sure the cognitive functions are scientifically valid then we can talk about whether people type themselves upside down.
In science, validity refers to accuracy; if something is not accurate, it is not valid. Just as reliability applies at multiple levels of the scientific process, so too does validity. Measurement validity refers to how valid, or accurate, a measure is. Validity and reliability are both key points you need to examine in any research study. For a study to be reliable the same experiment must be conducted under the same conditions to generate the same results. For a research study to have validity you must look at several aspects. Internal validity dictates how an experimental design is structured and encompasses all of the steps of the scientific research method. External validity is the process of examining the results and questioning whether there are any other possible causal relationships. As Dave and Shan and the OPS team have done this by utilizing the cognitive functions, what is there not to be valid?
Oh no
Whats going on here what
I spend my time digging for interesting music and conversations on CZcams.
I play guitar for hours.
I journal and draw...
Am I INFJ?
That's what I always get.
Rather than asking CZcams comments why not go figure it out by asking people in your actual life what's most annoying about you. You can't figure your type out based on a few random anecdotes like that.
@@TheRealFlenuan okay. I'll try.
@@TheRealFlenuan so people have said: stubbornness, forgetfulness, and sloppyness.
Taking into account the title of the video: you’re probably the opposite of what you think. ;)
So more along the lines of ISFP or ISTP. But who knows.. it takes a while of getting to know a person to properly type them.
@@Stephanie86NL True! I just need to get typed by the experts 😂 I'm so lost at this point.
Hope theres no missionaries show up at ur house everyday. 😉
You'll likely disregard this feedback, but as quality as so much of your analysis/content is, I cannot share your videos with my wife and children and some of my friends or employees. Why? Because it's lathered in swear words. I don't mind that stuff at all. Many don't. But many do. You will cut your potential audience by something more than half by not having the discipline to cut that stuff out of your content.
Freedom and knowledge>fear and ignorance.
This is absolutely right lol. I am an ISTP, I mistyped myself as an ENTJ for so long😂