The Two Ways You Lose in Games
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- čas přidán 15. 06. 2024
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Losing is not fun. It is not sexy, it is not exciting, it is not what you want . We admire winners, losers are forgotten with time. Losing is an activity we will all do on NUMEROUS occasions in our lives but the response to these losses is what sets us apart from those around us. What is the psychology of losing? How do we respond to a loss on a cognitive level and does our personality affect how we bounce back or IF we bounce back from a loss? Let’s dive in :)
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Let's talk Ridge Wallet :) (0:00)
Has this ever happened to you? (1:22)
Your Brain on Losing (3:25)
H U B R I S (5:23)
Prevention and Promotion (8:05)
The Two Ways We Quit (11:56)
Losing is Okay (14:44)
Hate to see you go, love to watch you leave (18:02)
▶Games Shown
Dark Souls (2011) - FromSoftware
Sekiro: Shadows Die Twice (2019) - FromSoftware
Elden Ring (2022) -FromSoftware
The Legend of Zelda: Breath of the Wild (2017) - Nintendo
Ghost of Tsushima (2020) - Sucker Punch Productions
Final Fantasy VII Remake (2020) - Square Enix
Celeste (2018) - Maddy Makes Games
Guilty Gear Strive (2021) - Arc System Works
Metroid Dread (2021) - Mercury Steam
Persona 5: Royal (2019) - Atlus, P Studio
ANNO: Mutationem (2022) - Thinking Stars
MTG Arena (2018) - Wizards of the Coast
Dead Cells (2017) - Motion Twin
Mario Party Superstars (2021) - NDcube
Final Fantasy XIII (2009) - Square Enix
Metroid Prime 2: Echoes (2004) - Nintendo, Retro Studios
The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess (2006) - Nintendo
Final Fantasy VII Remake (2020) - Square Enix
NieR:Automata (2017) - PlatinumGames
Hollow Knight (2017) - Team Cherry
Hades (2020) - Supergiant Games
ULTRAKILL (2020) - Arsi Patala
BioShock (2007) - 2K Games
Jump King (2019) - Nexile
Axiom Verge (2015) - Thomas Happ Games LLC
Astral Chain (2019) - Platinum Games
Osu! (2017) - Dean Herbert
Street fighter 5 (2016) - Capcom
Ninja Gaiden Black (2005) - Team Ninja
Super Smash Bros: Ultimate (2018) - Nintendo
Persona 5: Royal (2019) - Atlus, P Studio
Unbeatable (2021) - D-Cell Games
The Alien Cube (2021) - Alessandro Guzzo
Dandara (2018) - Long Hat House
Final Fantasy XIV Online (2010) - Square Enix
Persona 5: Dancing in Starlight (2018) - P Studio
The Legend of Zelda: Breath of the Wild (2017) - Nintendo
Inscryption (2021) - Daniel Mullins Games
Cyber Shadow (2020) - Aarne Hunziker
Friday Night Funkin' (2020) - Cameron Taylor
Destiny 2 (2017) - Bungie Inc
▶Media/Clips/Considerations:
• PoP Taking the L
▶Music Sources (in Order):
Ridge Racer Type 4 OST - Burnin' Rubber
Kirby and the Forgotten Land OST - Moonlight Canyon
Undertale OST - Metal Crusher
Bomberman 64 Music OST - Blue Resort
Kirby and the Forgotten Land OST - The Smell of a Scary Beast (Version 1)
Ridge Racer Type 4 OST - Pearl Blue Soul
Pokemon Battle Revolution OST - Magma Colosseum
Zelda: Breath Of The Wild Soundtrack OST - Monk Maz Koshia
Healing River - Tenno ( • Tenno - The Inner Ligh... )
Ridge Racer Type 4 OST - Naked Glow
▶Research Articles Cited
docs.google.com/document/d/14...
#PsychofPlay #Personality - Hry
A massive thanks to Ridge for supporting the show! If this is the wallet for you, don’t miss out on an extra 15% off! > ridge.com/daryl and use coupon code “DARYL” at checkout :)
The people who can go chopping at that tree all day can find themselves with head space problems while others have trouble learning from loss fps can be helped by playing death match in csgo even against bots i recommend the ppbizon when you can kill 2-3 bots before you die you are ready to learn from your mistakes online if you understand the diversity of gorilla warfare walk dont run and wall
Games like dota pokemon its all about meta
it's only 10%
This video was so interesting. I think this is why I also have a hard time starting new games. It gives me anxiety, like "what if its too hard?" or "im probably never gonna finish". I mainly have played the same 2 games for almost a decade (overwatch and minecraft) which both are games that dont have an 'ending'. I also have a hard time quitting overwatch sessions before a win though.
im a chronic preventer with everything and i wish i wasnt
Love the vid! Also, I like ridge wallets but I love my "big" leather wallet because after 8 years I have never had anything fall out and not once has it ever fallen out of my back pocket. With slim nature of ridge wallets I found them to easily fall out. Just my experience tho. Sorry for the rant plz keep up the great work! 👍
"Winning may feel more like a relief than a prize..."
This hits too close to home. It's the worst feeling when you finally beat a boss and you don't even feel a sense of pride or accomplishment. You're just grateful you don't have to lose anymore. I've been a sore loser since I was little, and despite improving with time; I still very much cannot stand losing.
It's amazing how much a preventative mindset can shut you down mentally. If you can't win, then the only winning move is not to play. I tend to avoid playing competitive games against human players because you're essentially guaranteed to lose at least some of the time and I can't cope with it. It's even worse for team games, the responsibility to succeed for the sake of your team feels like a crushing burden to carry. Competitive games are pretty much off limits for me to play because they're just too stressful.
It's even worse when it affects other parts of your life. You stop working on projects because you failed, and now you're too afraid to try. You know that if you try you'll fail, so the only way to avoid failure is not to try. You try to tell yourself that failure is okay and a necessity, but you can't shake the self-imposed responsibility to succeed.
It's a very toxic mindset and difficult to overcome. How do you learn to be okay with failing? How do you absolve yourself of the responsibility to succeed? I don't know the answer to either of these questions.
What I do know is that I understand myself just a little bit better because of this video. Thank you Daryl.
Crazy how this is posted 12h ago
@@robertmouse3782 awesome! This channel is amazing
@@robertmouse3782 looking at the law of attraction what we focus on we attract it doesn't understand how we view it in this case preventative only that we're focusing on it, if you don't see things that way then view it like our behavior is influenced by our focus and so we'd behave accordingly in a sense wanting not to lose places loss at the center of our focus, where as wanting to win places winning at the forefront. the lesson we need to learn is to draw a distinction between the two that may seem so similar they should give the same result.
Fail alot, fail often & fail forward. The more you fail the more you learn to be okay with failure.
Hey man, I've been playing fighting games online for at least 15 years. My trick is my definition of a failure. It's only a failure if I didn't learn anything. If you learned anything, whatever it is, it isn't a failure, it's an experience. Hope this helps.
In Hollow knight when I played the pantheon of Hallownest I reached Absolute Radiance on my first try. Now I get killed by telekinetic moths and bouncing caterpillars. Still trying to beat it.
I keep getting wasted by Zote the mighty pain in my @$$
@@TriforceTrooper66 I let him die in this save file so I don’t have to ever deal with him
At least you unlocked AbsRad in the Hall of Gods!
It's a matter of time my dude, you'll get there!
I struggle with Marmu too, I’m glad he’s around some other easy bosses so I can heal back up after getting hit so many times. Markoth though…
@@AshenDust_ I found out (by trying Radiant Markoth), that Nail Arts are very effective at keeping your distance from him (excluding Cyclone), since even Mark of Pride + Longnail doesn't outrange his shield.
Other than that Shade Soul is also very useful, so saving it for phase 2 is a good idea.
So I'd recommend Nailmaster's Glory, Grubsong, Shaman Stone & Spell Twister.
I feel like Hades really helped me with handling loss because the way Zagreus handles it. I remember one voice line of him saying "whats life without a little pain" and I was like dam right. I also loved how when I died to that jelly monster on my first time playing then came back and killed it I was like get wrecked and Zagreus had some voice line for getting payback.
Anyways great vid as always
Yes! His little commentary went a long way in helping Ls go down easier and Ws feel 3x better
@@DarylTalksGames definitely!
Based Zag.
I love Zag's lines for killing an enemy that got you on the previous run. My favorite is "You kill me, I killed you."
"Time to get killed again."
I think losing icreases skill but decreases focus
During first tries we are more careful of the things enemy is doing but we don't know what to do
During later tries, because of being bored, we lose our focus but because of getting used to the enemy we gain more skill against it
Which is why quitting and coming back later, be that a couple hours or couple days, usually (key word being "usually") results into first try, or first couple of tries victories.
@@Ten_Thousand_Locusts exactly
Being bored, frustrated, aggravated, stressed out...all of these, and more, cause us to lose focus, not just boredom.
Totally agree with this especially in souls games. I’ve always described it as being caught in a fight. The cutscene plays and the music starts blaring and it FEELS dangerous on the first run. Everything is unknown and I need to be ready for whatever happens. After that (especially a good first run) it’s not that I check out it’s more that I’m not as absorbed in it.
A lot of it is that we are processing what went wrong and trying to adapt/integrate new data. So after an unsuccessful first try, it's reasonable to do worse the next few tries as your brain is processing all the information it gathered from that first try.
perfect timing, I was just contemplating my life because I was losing in a game
Time to speedrun it. The game not the life.
@@-Scrapper- lmao
complentate...
@@vitriolicAmaranth I was very sleepy
Elden Ring?
I realized something while I was watching this video. My whole gaming "life", in every single game that I could go that direction, I farmed my ass off after a couple of losses. I scoped the power of my opponent and made sure I'm much stronger before facing them again. My friends keep wondering how I enjoy the game when I farm for 4-5 hours and then smash the boss' face to the ground with almost no effort. How I get my sense of accomplishment. I just say "I made sure I wouldn't lose and that was more than enough".
In team games, I will pick the healer and the tank to stay alive and keep others alive as well. I will fill my bags with items to drop on my teammates when they need them etc. My teammates make sure we'll win and I make sure we won't lose.
That was fine and all, until I dug a bit deeper into my psyche. I became a veterinarian to not "lose" to diseases etc (yeah, it's a bit more complex than that but that's the emotional core for me) and prevent others from losing as well. My whole lifestyle is the prevention of something bad. In gaming it's manageable "Big bad guy needs to eat dirt, I'm a dirt server, badabim badaboom". But in real life it's really taxing sometimes. You can't always save the dog, you can't mend the relationship, you can't "farm" before facing a problem, you can't make sure you won't lose. And quitting is irreversible. (Please stay healthy, people, both physically and mentally!)
Thank you Daryl for giving me some food for thought and helping me understand myseld a tad better.
i agree so much but strangely with pokemon lol. before i would lose even once i made sure all my pokemon in my party were so op so i would have to grind for so long and then i would beat the trainer so easily . but it didn’t really feel rewarding to me and i didn’t end up finishing the game . the mind of a perfectionist is difficult
This has actually blown my mind right open; just realising that I play healers/tanks to prevent my team losing is just... 🤯
Idk, I play flex a lot, but I always opt for support so my team don't mess up and cost us the match, and also so they can have a good time playing who they want... idk when the last time was that I got to play a dps role in practically anything multiplayer 😬
as someone who has opposite mindset, I would say that might be good for you if you managed it well thou
I tend to just plan and bump into the problem without much preparation, and I can't stand sticking on something for minutes, let along hours (I can't play JRPG because of this), which definitely impact my growth
thank you for this insight! Always have time to focus your attention inwards, Not only outwords. it is important to reflect upon why we feel how we feel
Veterinarian huh? Sounds like proof that "the preventer" isn't a "losing personality"
These psychological discussions are my life blood
i just lost in a tourney, 0-2 today, i'm using this more as cry shoulder/copium. we persevere
I'm not just a gamer, but a die-hard NFL fan, and when you said "winning may feel more like a relief than a prize," I instantly flashed back to the documentary "America's Game."
One particular episode of that show documented the 1998 Denver Broncos, and one of the people interviewed was Mark Schlereth, who was an offensive lineman for the team. The Broncos had won the Super Bowl the previous year, in which they had been massive underdogs against the Packers. But this season (98), they were heavy favorites against the Falcons.
Schlereth said, after beating the Falcons, the atmosphere around the team was completely different than the year before. Whereas in 97, it was all jubilation after winning the SB as underdogs, in 98 it was relief. No joy, just relief. They had won the game they were "supposed" to win, and anything less would have been humiliating. "DEFENDING the crown, as opposed to chasing it, was far, far less enjoyable, because of the pressure and expectations."
that really ties back to the first attempt of the boss being your best one (except way smaller scale), first attempt you go in thinking, I'll lose anyway, let's see what this boss is about and get some patterns down, then when you do well and come back you're now setting expectations on yourself to do at least as well as last attempt, and when that doesn't happen.. well, anger builds up fast, because you took a hit to your pride, or ego
Also I think the relation between prevention-focus and learned helplessness is the other way around. Repeated traumatic experiences lead to an unhealthy desire to prevent any more hurt.
It's weird. I identify with the prevention focus for the vast majority of my time playing Elden Ring, but when I faced Malenia, the boss fight was so fun I no longer cared about losing. In fact, there were times where I purposely got myself killed just so I could extend the fight. Seriously the most fun I've had in a long time.
At first I was just applying this to how I play video games: I tend to beat my head against a strong enemy/boss for awhile, but if I'm not able to beat them and feel like I'm getting frustrated, then I'll just do other stuff in the game (or play a different game if that's not an option) and come back to the challenge later. So I was like "Oh, I have a promotion mentality, I'm good!" 👍
But when he started to include other forms of our lives... I realized I have a chronic prevention mentality when it comes to my work in retail. I tend to give it my all and do my best, and when I have a manager who acknowledges that and compliments me for it, I'm fine and love working there. But when the manager only gripes about me not doing EVERYTHING to there liking and doesn't say anything positive, and I CAN'T just go somewhere else any time I'm feeling fed up with it. It feels like I'm stuck on a plotline boss that I can't move forward, OR EVEN GO BACK AND GRIND AND BEAT THEM LATER!!! I've transferred from one branch to another of the same company, and the stores that I've felt this way twords I've NEVER gone back to (not even to shop). And I've felt it really take a strain on my mental health.
Sorry for the long comment thread, just needed a moment to rant 😅 I will say I'm in the process of working for a different company with a much better work environment and better pay, so I am seeing a light at the end of this tunnel 👍
yeah same, when I apply this to video games or even most things in my life, I'd say I have a very promotional mindset; I'm great at laughing off losses or mistakes and just moving forward with my life and it's probably why I love challenging games like Dark Souls so much. But for whatever reason I'm totally the opposite when it comes to interacting with people, I'm terrified of messing up or making any kind of mistake or being hated and so I really struggle to talk to people I don't already know, and even though I try and push myself to when I can I tend to avoid it whenever possible. And even when I do talk to people the anxiety from all this makes it way more challenging. I think experiences in our early lives can really shape this kind of promotional vs. preventative people have and particularly in relation to specific situations. I wasn't really treated the best by the people around me when I was younger so now the consequences of failing socially with others are probably really exagerated in my mind leading to this preventative mindset when otherwise I tend to be more promotional. Anyway, it's interesting stuff!
Also, there is the realization that Malenia has a second phase. When you beat an impossibly hard boss after hours of trying and she comes back saying "You will witness True Horror"... That breaks you. No matter how determined you are. You abandon all hope and go to sleep, crying internally.
The interesting thing is how we manage to get out of bed the next day. That might be a good topic for a video... Although I don't know if there is any research work done about that.
Title: Miyazaki's Vision
I personally never felt that. I loved Malenia's first phase, even if it took me 3 days to beat her my first time.
Her second phase was so much more frustrating for me, because I just stopped having fun fighting it. Then again, I was running a medium shield parry build. Sonce most of her attacks are parryable, it was a matter of learning her patterns and getting good at them. For most others, I understand it's a massive RNG-fest with little to no window of opportunity. I felt that as well in phase 2
That was literally my reaction when I faced the second phase for the first time...
The first time I didn't event try, when she got back up full health I just sat there and awaited my fate.
For me, the moment that is cemented in my brain is not when I beat her, but when I realised I was going to. That split second when I saw how much health she had, how much me and my summoned ash had and how many crimsom tears were left. "She's going down, I can even take one of those sword blenders of hers". Hubris, she could probably still turn the fight.
But down she went.
Interesting thought on being overconfident and setting expectations for yourself too high immediately after a loss:
From my personal experience with ADHD, you can sometimes enter this spiral where you fail to complete a task or meet a deadline...but then rather than rein in your expectations, you try to stack even more work ON TOP of that task to "make up" for it. You're sensitive to failure or whether others will think less of you for not getting this seemingly "simple & easy" task done, so you keep pushing yourself to get some insane amount done to catch up like, "See? I promise I'm not a lazy idiot I can do it I just had an off day-"
But then it keeps going. And going. And going. Until you have an impossible mountain of things you've tried to take on, and you breakdown or shutdown from the stress. By adding even higher expectations on yourself, you're also making it easier and more likely to not meet those expectations. The list of requirements and check boxes you have to meet is longer, so you're more likely to not get all of them and then beat yourself up even worse for "failing again."
So I'm not saying this is a universal experience, but sometimes this act of setting expectations too high after failure may be less of a "pride" thing. It can be more so trying to regain faith in one's abilities/self-efficacy, or maybe to reestablish your perceived capability with peers. (Daryl's vid called "How Souls Games Save You" touches on the concept of self-efficacy as well and is where I first learned that term, highly recommend checking that out.)
Maybe this is just me, but living with things like Rejection-Sensitivity and difficulty regulating emotions (which often come with ADHD), has caused me to have to get very good at managing this. Because losing in a game is one thing, but perpetually feeling behind and losing at life in general is another. And I still am not great at it in every situation -- I know which things or games may trigger this stuff worse than others or I'm less able to handle, so those ones I may either play "as a joke," or avoid engaging with altogether. It's okay to recognize which challenges you're less likely to enjoy.
I finally understand why people gravitate to FromSoft (soulsborne) games though, and I personally feel they've helped me a LOT with managing my ability to deal with failure. Bloodborne was my first one, and it took TIME mind you - I bounced off it many times and would take breaks that lasted months.
But forcing myself to get into the game's flow, learning the "dance" as people call it, taught me patience and that overconfidence is the ONLY thing to actually fear.
(At least in Soulsborne games) When you play with the fear of god in your soul, the expectation that you're GOING to lose, and the mentality of "honestly I should have been dead already" -- Any progress is a bonus, everything is a win LOL. Celebrate your little victories, pace yourself, and know when to take a break. It's not quitting, it's preparing.
It's not the answer for everyone, but just some interesting things and connections I've noticed between dealing with failure in games and living with ADHD. Figured it might resonate with some people.
(By the by, if you resonated a little too much with any of this and think you might have ADHD, I highly recommend the "How To ADHD" channel, great vids that explain things better than I can 👍)
My sister and I have totally different personalities when it comes to losing. Neither of us like it, but it's for different reasons.
I don't like losing because it makes me feel embarassed, even when I'm alone, but I usually take a break and push on at a later date.
My sister also gets embarrassed when she loses, but she also sees a loss as a confirmation that she's unskilled and thus shouldn't have tried playing the game in the first place.
I got her to play Dark Souls 1 literally last night for the first time ever. She said she would play until she died 5 times, but she ended up quitting after only dying twice. She even tried to joke around and waste her lives by jumping down some stairs until her lifebar was chipped away. I was really sad to see how underconfident she was.
It's not like she isn't a gamer; she's sunk hundreds of hours into Assassin's Creed, Skyrim, Final Fantasy, Monster Hunter, etc. But the threat that Dark Souls' legacy has, (Prepare to Die, Git Gud, etc) had intimidated her and she didn't want to suffer the embarrassment of 5 losses in a row... So she gave up.
Not that I believe she would have lost 5 times. She could have easily won if she kept playing, (even she admitted it was way easier than she'd expected) but there's a hurdle in her mind somewhere that I'd really like her to cross.
I'm just wondering if I can get her to relax her self-imposed win-ratio standards by playing Elden Ring... Maybe the Open World gimmick and summoning bell will help her to open up?
We naturally challenge the ideas of others when they come into conflict with our own. When showing off a game, it can be sort of like imposing one's opinions about liking something as more important than someone else's. That isn't our intention but it can come across that way. When someone recommends a game, show, music, etc. it's almost like a challenge to find what's wrong with it and why they should dislike it. I've even noticed this myself where I have less deep and focused connections with games I get recommended. I find myself subconsciously sabotaging my playthroughs, trying to find why the recommendation for me was wrong, and it sucks.
I think a way to get around this is to reframe the interaction away from forcing them to enjoy something you think is cool and trying to get them invested in wanting to try it out. A way I've done this is to do a trade. You'll try out a game/show/whatever they like if they'll try out the game you like. This reframes their experience from "ugh, I guess I'll try it so they stop bugging me" to "I want them to enjoy the thing I'm making them try out".
Dying only five times in the Asylum (I presume that's where she gave up, given your stair-jumping story), when it's literally your first time playing 'Souls, is actually doing very well. I think the issue is the toxic environment that the games have created, where complaining about the constant deaths is mocked with 'git gud' when the actual response should be "dying is an important part of the game." Really, anyone who gives anyone crap for dying constantly in 'Souls has forgotten how it feels to fall in love with the series and it's spinoffs.
That said, early access to summoning and the open world that gives the player a break from their frustration sounds like it might be a good idea. Gotta remember to step back from the objective at hand every once in a while to get that break, if that makes any sense.
@@infamousXsniper055 If it feels like you're being bugged and irritated into trying something, you shouldn't try it, and the fault is on the person who makes you feel obligated to try it. Period.
Here's an idea for co-op play
Both of you will tackle the challenge
Thanks for the replies guys. To clarify: I didn't force my sister to play the game, nor do I think I've ever bugged her excessively about the series. She was staying the night at my place and wanted to play a game, but my PS4 has an issue with ejecting the disc at random, so I fished out my old XBox360 and the Dark Souls disc was already in there. I didn't intend for her to continue playing the game far after the Asylum either, knowing she'd feel lost and annoyed as soon as she took her first incorrect turn from Firelink Shrine. All I want to do is help her overcome her loss aversion and underconfidence. I though Dark Souls might actually be the ticket because hey, if she beat a little bit of the "hard game" that everyone memes about then that means she's good, right? And because death happens so quick she might be ok with losing temporarily to gain a victory thats more permanent.
She has a problem with crediting me for every win whenever we play together in games like Monster Hunter or Smash, as if she'd be bad at the game without me there to hold her hand. But the truth is she's good at games and enjoys them! She can beat G Rank monsters alone with sword&shield (her fav because she could quick select heal and buff items) and I know for a fact she used to wreck shop as Mercy in Overwatch even when the character got nerfed into the dirt (mostly because her paranoia makes her healer survivability completely nuts). She just hates percieved losses so much that if her performance isn't 100% perfect then it means she's "bad".
That feeling of "Winning is more a relief than a prize" is something I can really feel when finishing a game.
Lately, everytime that I win a game (that, for some reason, I didn't abandon) I don't feel some sort of success, but a disappointing sensation of only having finished a task, and nothing more...
Is sad that I got no joy nor accomplishment feelings, just "I did what I have to do"...
the only game in recent memory that I have both beaten and felt good about beating was Psychonauts 2. Even Psychonauts 1, which I love as a game, had that Meat Circus level which made finally beating the game more relief than prize. But I actually enjoyed Psychonauts 2 more or less all the way through.
I’ve always been way more of a preventer type. My most memorable experience with loss prevention was probably Celeste. I had beaten the A and B sides fairly easy, when I started to hit lots of walls on all the C sides. I refused to quit or even change the level I was playing for a change of pace, instead opting to stay up until 3 AM every night for nearly two weeks straight, until I had conquered every single level, had earned my crystal hearts. I knew it wasn’t healthy, and I knew I was being stubborn, but like Madeline, I was stubborn, and when I finally heard Granny’s words about how ‘we become attached to the struggle’, I connected with that on a spiritual level. I went on to take a long, 3 month break before trying to beat Farewell, and after 20,000+ deaths, I can confidently say I have achieved the level of mastery over this cute, brutal platformer that I could have ever wanted, and more.
(but mannnnnn those golden strawberries though, I’m really tempted-)
Celeste is the only game I’ve ever been like this with, 10s of thousands of deaths and months of play, now when I’m bored I get summit c golden strawberry in 15 mins for fun. Souls games I drop entirely within 1 hour, I’ve never been motivated by them.
Maybe because Celeste’s objective is so simple, there’s no builds, no inventory, you go right until you win
Same here, except now I play modded, and every (non-heartside) screen of the 2020 spring collab past red intermediate difficulty takes anywhere between 15 minutes to 1 hour. The advanced heartside took me over 8 hours to complete, and while it was around half the time I needed to complete farewell for the first time, it was somehow more painful (probably because it has 5 screens, each of them about half as long as farewell’s final subchapter).
I also did a lot of the same things you did, like not changing levels until completion. I played glyph (another mod) after some of the advanced levels were too much, but that was it. For the most part it’s just stubbornness, learning, and eventually luck.
We really do get attached to the struggle. (I’ll probably never complete grandmaster lobby lol, but idk)
I just finished going through almost the same thing with Lego Star wars TCS, i've just about 100%ed it, but I can't do it with those fuc!ng Lego city mini games, I have tried and tried for weeks barely getting any sleep and waking up at 1pm just to get back on and continue playing, but i'm entirely sick of it and i'm not playing any more
This video was kinda crazy for me because I feel like I'm naturally inclined towards prevention, but have learned how to take a more promoter style in games. I used to very much exhibit the prevention behaviors (loss aversion, one-track mind, quitting for good), but over the course of a few years I steadily taught myself the promoter behaviors (focus on the goal, take breaks and come back), and at least for me, this led to me having a much more healthy relationship with games. But I had no idea that regulatory focus was a thing, I just knew that what I was doing naturally wasn't working for me.
Knowing that there's a field of study around this is really really cool to me!
I had the same reaction! I've always said I prefer like 70% fun 30% challenge in my games, because losing took away my motivation to play, but in various games I pushed myself to change my approach. I think it started off as literally "I'm not quitting, I need to get my money's worth" but eventually it morphed into "The developers knew what they were doing, and I at least owe them some persistence". However like yourself I progressed in promoter behaviours because it was a more mellow way to approach games, and kept me playing and analyzing my playing to be encouraged by how I had improved, even if it was only a little bit.
It's important to keep in mind that it's _your..._ well, mind. You've got a degree of control over it.
Can't really change it quickly, but you can certainly change it. Become a better person and all that.
before hollow knight, I really never felt reward for winning, but felt horrible to losing, I couldn't stand to "lose agaisn't an AI" kind of very awful pride.
I did take hollow knight for that reason, it's a game I KNEW would whipe my ass countless time,
and defeating grim after 2 hours session of non-stop trying bring me two things:
-the joy of having won + the relief of having done it
-knowing I *can* not going apeshit and actually being focused on winning.
since then, I deal with the bosses with much more chill, since losing became okay, what's matter is passing that obstacle, is winning.
now I am playing every morning for an hour, training again't the bosses to learn them and being familiar with them (and avoiding the pitfall I could fall into) before retrying the pantheon of hallowness.
anyway, that was a great video, and this channel on general is super interesting, it help me a lot to make my gaming experiences more fun (since I could understand more my own behavior, and the pitfall I tend to fall into)
I've never heard the "can't stand to lose against an AI" mentality before.
AIs can be essentially perfectly playing machines (just look at aimbots) that warp the game around them. Like, they can be objectively better at a game than any human ever can ever be. Then not being able to stand losing against something that, compared to human capabilities, could be infinitely more powerful than a person?
That's really interesting to me.
Great work on improving yourself. You love to see it.
@@sirreginaldfishingtonxvii6149 my perspective was both "it's suck because they are predictable, so I am just terrible" + "it's unfair because they can pull things no one could".
that was my weird paradoxal view of bots. and certainly not one that allowed me to ever had fun because no matter what it felt "unearned". if I win, it's because they are predictable, thus I just do what was supposed to be done. and horrible when losing because of how "unfair" the thing was.
anyway, thanks! it definitevely feel very good to less like that.
I played and beat Bloodborne recently. I also started playing Strive online. So my perspective on the concept is fresh in my head.
I think the expectations of what is being presented to you has a big influence on how heavy a loss feels. And I guess whether you take a Prevention or Promotion outlook towards the experience.
In Bloodborne, for example. Walked up to Vicar Amelia at a low level. Got killed pretty quick. Said to my self, vocally, "Okay, guess I'm not meant to fight this boss yet. Theres two other branching paths here, the game is telling me to explore and come back later." So I did, got runes, levelled up more, and beat her on my second try. The expectation didnt feel like I NEEDED to beat her then, because other options were presented, and that was my expectation. It didn't feel like a heavy loss.
Strive (and online fighting games in general) felt different. Tried out Ky, no prior FG experience besides smash. The online tutorial threw me into floor 4 of the tower. There was no one on floors 4 and 5 of the tower. So I went to the park, and got curb stopped by people with a mastery of the game. And then went to floor 6, the lowest floor with an active player base. Made some gradual progress, but eventually got into a losing streak. And instead of leaving and going somewhere else, I kept at it and kept losing, and just felt miserable. Because it didn't feel like there was another option presented. It was either lose here, or lose somewhere else while trying to learn. The losses felt heavier.
I didn't care about losses in Bloodborne, because there were other options or tasks to go and do. I felt angry loosing in Strive, because I felt like I couldn't perform to the bare minimum of whats expected of me in a public space. So in addition to your own internal leaning, I feel like how the game presents the situation and sets your expectations is important. To the point where I can loose to the Orphan of Kos 20 times in a row and not get angry once, but loosing to an aggressive I-no on Floor 6 of Strive over and over will make me feel the absolute worst.
Good video overall. A lot to think about.
I think early on in my childhood I learned that I'll usually just lose at something. I was consistently bullied and beat up. But over time I kept improving. I'd learn how to fight or learn how to become more agile so that I could run away faster. And that showed itself in competition aswell. I'm always prepared to lose but I never fully accept it as the pre determined outcome. I remember i shocked my ap gov teacher by actually passing her class. But to me it wasn't really a relief or a shock. The truth is that I had studied for hours in my room. Quietly memorzing my notes and reviewing my past tests and quizzes for things I had missed. I did that for a week preparing to take her test. So when she just dropped her jaw at my test grade I just laughed and walked off. I had another experience like that in middle school. I had misunderstood the directions for a project thinking we had just been given 7 different options for our project. Nope. Our project was to do all 7 different projects to make up our entire project. Shit was waaay complicated and on top of that we had projects in all our other classes but whatever. When the teacher explained that to me I realized I had less than a week left. So I sat down and calmly started the rest. It was tough but in less than a week I managed to bang out the other projects and was able to present them all in clasa on time and my stuff was considered some of the best in the entire class. And see that's the thing about losing for me. I know that when I'm truly backex into a corner I always do everything I can to come out on top. I don't always expect to dominate in everything I do but I know that I have the ability in me to dominate. All it needs is a bit of persuasion to come out.
Man, that's kinda badass
Are you ever put in the situation where you try real hard, but come up short anyways?
I wonder if promotion vs prevention also helps inform playstyle in games. Like a person who’s prevention focused is more likely to utilize stealth mechanics to take out each enemy from safety, vs a promotion focused person who’s more likely to just run right into combat to block, dodge, and slash their way through everyone.
This is why I love games that have story/easy modes as I get older. I’m a perfectionist so failing at games makes me feel like I’m essentially failing at life (enter crippling self doubt). But since I started playing games on easy/story mode it’s gotten a lot better for me. It’s more fun for me to play a game for enjoyment versus teeth clenching challenge that makes me feel like I’m taking the SAT again. Now I find myself shifting back into a promotion based tendency which I like. Yes, I don’t play as many games now (let’s plays only for Elden Ring) but I’m ok with that since I don’t have as much time now either with working, hobbies, and just adult stuff. It’s a trade off but one I’m happy to make for my mental sanity.
Self efficacy might apply to this too. Since I'm usually hard on myself, it makes sense i focus on "solving my failure" than "achieving glory"
These videos combine my interest in psychology and video games, I can’t believe I didn’t find this channel sooner!! Great work!
As someone with ADHD, I'm very promotion focused. I have to force myself to not jump as often otherwise I'm playing 30 games, watching 10 animes, working on 7 projects and don't really have an idea what is going on in any of them or which is which.
When it comes to rage quitting, a lot goes into it. I'm much more likely if a game is kind of boring and then I run into a BS section. The last game I really quit was a Metroidvania that was just "eh", but I reached a long tedious boss whose last phase was an instant death climbing upwards chase, but the boss was halfway up the screen and you couldn't see the level you were navigating. I could have kept throwing my head at it by slowly memorizing the layout, but I wasn't enjoying it enough to do that.
8:37
"Maybe the level felt unfair" exactly how I felt with the Okumura palace boss fight (well, the entire palace tbh), which you put in the background of the video at that exact time so wow
I thought it was a cool concept but whoa they don’t give you enough time to drop all of the robots haha
Okumura's boss fight made me take a week long break from the game because I was treading into rage quit territory and P5 is one of my favorite games. I'm so glad I bounced around playing other games till I could retry without being angry because I would have been sad not finish one of the best JRPGs ever made. That boss fight was total bs though and really fit with "feeling unfair".
Quite the timing! This settles a debate I recently had with an acquaintance of mine, thank you very much.
Great video. Fun sponsor. Increasingly better editing and an interesting topic. Have yourself a damn good one after this, you deserve it, mate!
What was the debate and who won?
@@briancaster2876 Oh, just your typical good vs bad reinforcement debate. Slightly related to what one looks for when picking up a title. A topic the video kind of covers, when Daryl talks about the reasoning behind 'why you play games'. Granted, it wasn't the main focus of the debate, but I am glad someone actually did the research eitherway.
*_This logic can be actually applied on literally EVERYTHING we do._*
*_Promotion-focus is the ability to multitask and take breaks in-between. It means that you can catch a breath before going back to the main thing. You're likely to be rushing with adrenaline once you learn from mistakes, failures, and after putting the task aside. It just gives you the smirk on the face, pushing aside the consequence and just enjoy the fun._*
*_On the other hand, Prevention-focus is more of the fixed types. You're unlikely to take any break unless you perfect it. I see this in myself when I do music, only to see that I did a misstep somewhere and had to repeat it many times until it's smooth. Literally ANYTHING that requires a flawless and perfect performance is the driving force of Prevention-focus. This is likely the logical side, compared to the other type that involves creative drive and inspiration._*
*_No one's one side or the other. We can actually balance them out in fine amounts. Just remember that Ego somehow has a bit of a play here. You can feel the confidence and the pride of accomplishment, but don't overdose yourself with it. You won't win a second time after the first._*
Being heavily prevention-focused, I can attest that it isn't useful.
something i found really interesting is the concept of the 'preventer'. i think i definitely fall into this camp, but it shows up for me way more in the actual dungeon areas than with the bosses if we use elden ring as an example. i was certainly comfortable moving on from tree sentinel until i had better gear, but trudging through stormveil made me quit the game for almost a month until i was able to summon a friend to guide me through it. it's a bit of a mixed bag where instead of quitting the game, elden ring has a feature where i can receive help for those situations. for any other game, i likely would've quit outright. which actually also happened in hollow knight, where i stopped playing for an entire year before going back and really enjoying it, all the while still wishing in the back of my head that the switch had mod support that would help me out a little bit.
i also find it interesting that, with ADHD, i still fall into the preventer style of play. the two seem pretty counter-intuitive, but i think it makes sense when you think about adhd as an lack of control over where your attention lies, rather than a lack of the ability to pay attention or focus altogether.
Hyperfocus is a pretty common symptom of adhd
Elden ring has so many ways of counteracting difficulty in the game, it almost feels un-soulsy
I'm solidly in the prevention camp. I'll keep coming back until I finally win. It took me something like two years (on and off) to complete all Death Wishes in A Hat In Time. Until I've completed the challenge I've given for myself it'll keep gnawing at me.
i always figured it was cause of 'stakes' personally. like the first round has 0 stakes, you know you're just here to learn the boss and losing is part of it, which puts you in a relaxed focused state.
i remember just this one time this '0 stakes' thought worked so well in my favor. in Dark Souls 1, i'd heard no end of stories for Ornstein & Smough, how ridiculously tough they were, how much everyone got trounched.
of course, i thought the exact same would happen to me so i just went in on my first 2 attempts with a simple "i'll just learn, and we'll see later if i can get anywhere"....and then i won on that 2nd attempt. out of nowhere, the first time i'd even *seen* O&S's second form.
to this day the most ridiculous accomplishment i've had in any Souls game period.
Add that to the quote book…
“You just need to Learn that Losing okay; then you’ll find yourself Losing Less.”
Instructions unclear
I'm ok with losing but I'm still stuck in Silver IV like the loser fck I am
@@eyo8766 Just keep dude you got to be patient and be non impulsive.
@@eyo8766 And the fact you shaming yourself on your comment makes me think you still not ok with losing.
@@Blue-Apple-fc9eo Why not both? If I say that Im hardstuck Silver then people will tell me to git gud or start flaming. So I just hypershame myself in order to prevent that from happening
I don't really care about winning when I'm playing with other people. Mostly because I expect to lose most of the time (unless we're on a time crunch, in which case I usually win the game with minutes to spare). When I'm playing by myself though, I definitely hold a higher expectation of winning at whatever I am playing. Problem is my skill usually doesn't match to expectations, so I can occassionally hyper-fixate on a specific part of what I'm playing until I either beat it and move on or give up and move on. Sometimes I have to remind myself that the stakes aren't as high as I think they are and that I will likely figure out how to solve the problem when I'm no longer thinking about it.
I saw this video and I just can’t stop relating to irl situations and, ofc, souls games. Loosing for me feels like a roadblock, but throughout time, I started treating losses like usual situations and I caught myself some slack. Your videos keep inspiring us, so keep doing them. Thank you!
definitely a promotion focused haha losing doesn't bother me because it's just a sign that there's more to learn and I can always come back later after studying up or taking a break if I need. I've been doing this with music recently swapping between drums, saxophone, guitar, and piano with the intent to focus for 30-hr on something beyond my current capabilities but swapping if I find myself getting frustrated and losing the point
Man, for some reason music is the one skill I never seem able to make progress in. Of course I mean composing; just playing an instrument relies on most of the same hard skill groups as winning at videogames but composing is almost all soft skills I just can't seem to build.
This showed up on my rec, and I've never known I needed to see a video before this, it honestly made me tear up a little haha. Your explanation has given me a lot to think about how I face games and how I view myself regarding them. I started properly playing games as a teenager and I've always "been bad" at them according to myself even when I've been able to finish challenging fights. Even writing that feels like a lie, and even when I see others do the same things I've done, I just feel I personally got past by luck, and will never do it again in case I fail this time and expose myself. I'm a huge preventor even in other tasks in life with work or education and its hard to figure out because its just a mix of not trying my best in case of failure and often blocking myself from my own potential.
With games its even worse somehow, and I almost NEVER play pvp because taking a loss is so hard and I don't want to ruin the mood of the whole room (I'm usually a loud person and its very easily noticeable when upset or sad) So even when I do want to be part of the activity, I tend to act like I don't care. Winning feels like what should be the default, and losing is a personal reflection of how I suck as a person.
Like a few other people have mentioned, I feel like Hades is the one game that's really making a difference to that in a core way within me. It had everything I was afraid of; not being able to save before difficult encounters was absolutely terrifying to me, and having the game take you back to the beginning at defeat was even more devastating, especially after all the boons youv'e collected that you would lose instantly. I loved everything about it except the fact that I just couldn't take an L. But its also the first game that's making me second guess the way I view failure in games. I was ready to drop it but my partner seemed to love it so I tried watching them play at first till I slowly started giving it a chance. I had a terrible mental block on the bosses and never did the third one myself till very recently and found out even though I died at the very end, (fuck you theseus, at this point he just pisses me off because he wont shut up, which I think is progress) it wasn't as impossible as I thought, which took a huge part of the pressure away. With the way the game actually has rewarding content WHEN you lose is a big part of reducing the pressure too. Zag's comments when you return back is probably the most reassuring thing that keeps me going tbh. For most people, losing might be a normal part of progress and reaching the ultimate win, but for someone like me, its something that shouldn't ever happen. So when the game actively makes it so clear that its normal not for the player, but the character as well to lose, it felt like it was teaching me a crucial part of playing games I had never understood.
I know I went off on a tangent here but I really appreciate the video and knowing its just the way my brain is wired and to keep that in mind objectively will help so much. Subscribed, and thank you for the great video Daryl! :)
I played deadcells one time and died when the hand had like 1 hp, so I paused, punched a wall, and beat him in the next run. This is the deadcells spirit.
I hade a healthy "breakup" with celeste (which is on of my favorite games of all time) over the C-side you showed in this video (the spikes one), I had already beaten all the other B and C-sides and really wanted to beat this one too but after hundreds of tries over many days it stopped being fun anymore, then I had the realization that I just can't do it and I hade to except that so I don't hate the game for not letting me win, But with me being the completionist that I am the thought of me never getting a 100% on my favorite game still saddens me a little.
Your videos are gems. Those types of high quality video-essay are rare on youtube nowadays. I'm glad that i found your channel recently.
As someone who enjoys rhythm games, this happens a _lot._ I always love to challenge myself with harder charts, but that also means I push myself and can end up overexerting and becoming devastated when an attempt that was so close gets shot down by a last second choke.
But rhythm games have helped me learn how to deal with losing. I can tell when I get mad, I'm better at staying focused, staying in the right mentality, and most importantly, I take a break when I realize I'm just too emotionally involved to feasibly beat that song. I don't want to be pushed to the limit and just get madder and madder, or even worse, win out of spite when I really shouldn't have won, and have it feel like an empty victory.
It's important to know your limits, and to take a break. It's still important to keep yourself motivated, but that motivation should be positive, and a break helps with that.
Edit: After reaching the end of the video, I'm definitely a preventer, and I fully accept that. I've had those toxic break-ups (though when I was _much_ younger), and I hope to never do that again.
Super interesting video, makes me wonder if on the flip side, extreme/chronic promotion focused individuals, may suffer depression but for opposite reasons of the chronic preventer. Maybe the chronic promoters are extremely flippant on tasks, take up many goals and struggle on completing them,etc… not sure but something that stuck out to me in your video.
Awesome job!
"Pride truly does come before a fall."
Or in this case, maybe it's also after a fall...
Wow. I am 100% a preventer and I am convinced that it is the reason I do not like to play multiplayer games. I hate losing and even dying in single-player games makes me feel like a failure.
Great video!
Dude, I've been procrastinating from making music lately and the content of this video has switched on a light bulb in my head! ^_^ It seems that I was in a prevention mode from trying not to break my daily music making routine as opposed to just focusing on tackling the task of making good anime music the way that I want it to sound so thank you so much man! I love you dude, you solved a question that has been on my mind for ages and the backlog video is also just insane! ^_^ :D
Now we need the sequel to this. “The Psychology of Winning” lol
I was playing Counter-strike: global offensive with some friends, we had one game where I was doing okay, in the middle of the team, but we won. We had another game where I was the definitive carry/mvp of the game for my team, but ultimately lost. The game we won put me a small amount closer to my next rank, but the game we lost put me a full rank lower. I was so angry, I quit for months after that night.
2:48 - As painful as the hunt for very particular research topics are to get your point across, super appreciate the time you take to look into and break these down. Even though they don't have to be done all the time, it really is nice to be pointed to a place where the story continues.
That promotion vs prevention focus segment is very enlightening. Im definitely more prevention focus.
Ive had moments where my friends would want to play overwatch and I’d be fighting a boss on sekiro or god of war and would NOT do anything else until i kill the boss.
I would make overwatch with friends a type of reward for if i beat the boss so that way I felt like I earned something.
Ahh gaming is amazing, tells a lot about us otherwise we would never knew. Thank you for amazing content man your videos are so flued and enjoyable🤙
it's kind of interesting, I think I'm more promotion focused in games than in real life. I mean it makes sense since there's real consequences for real failures, not to mention games almost certainly try to encourage you to keep going, but maybe I can use this awareness to my advantage. great video. btw you have a great voice? idk why I just noticed haha
No boss has ever made me quit. I spent 13 hours on Malenia and that time flew by and I had a great time. The ONE time I quit a game because of something related to difficulty was the final level of a game called Verlet Swing. I didn't even put half as much time into that level as I did Malenia but it felt like an eternity and I actually started to feel like I was having a break from reality doing it. Not because I was mad but just because of the relentless pace and constant repetition of it. It was literally driving me insane.
Fulfilling responsibilities perfectly describes what I experience with gaming. Winning a fight usually isn't any kind of personal achievement or victory for me, because winning that fight was how it was "supposed" to go down, or else the story can't progress until or unless that character wins. Failure doesn't feel like a simple setback, it feels like I didn't live up to a baseline standard, with all the shame that comes with that. Good video, btw.
I have been attempting Hollow Knights Pantheon of Hallownest for a while now, and I've managed to go away from the frustration part. However, in a recent attempt I got close to finishing it, but now, I have yet to get back there. Annoying but okay for me. I remember doing The Path of Pain, and it was different. I made one attempt that was a huge struggle, then came back way later, sat in a vc, and attempted the thing in 4 hours straight, and I finished it! It made me feel like a Hollow Knight, I could barely believe I'd finally done it, I wasn't pumping my fists up but man, I had such self respect at that moment.
I'm heavily prevention-leaning, to the point that it hinders my day-to-day life. This also applies to games with clear unrecoverable fail states. So I can't even bring myself to play anything of the sort. The sheer possibility of losing countless hours of progress discourages me from even trying.
But there are games like Dark Souls or Hades where there's no fail state, only temporary setbacks. And in these games I just don't feel like defeat is a failure. So I can keep trying and trying without any additional emotional strain. I mean, the agitation is still there, but the game never crushes me, I can just rest, play something else and come back later the same evening or tomorrow.
So I never quit for good because of the "failure", but instead I often don't even enter. It's interesting.
You really cranked up the feelsometer at the end there. The music and "message" came through beautifully.
This video was really cool found a lot of myself in it. The explanation of prevention focus and how it can make u focus on one task is something I do a lot. For me I want to win and I don’t like leaving things I set out to do undone. So when I start bashing my head against the wall sure I’m getting frustrated but anytime I go to put it down I get caught up “nows the best time to do it you’re already doing it” “you’re gonna lose all that practice if you stop now” that type of thing. It’s an irrational response (you can’t lose practice) but it keeps me stuck on things. And one of the most rewarding things is getting stuck and moving past it because you refused to be stopped
I believe I am on the promotion focus group. I tend to always leave a game if I've lost a ton and go "I'll be back!". My toughest loss in a game I think was from Kingdom Hearts 2's Demyx boss fight. It's a big jump in difficulty and a big change of pace that I had to figure out slowly over multiple attempts till I got it down.
But what I wonder most about is how much of this is compartmentalized into circumstance and how much of it can be trained.
Like... it depends on what you're doing, right? I can be a great promoter in games but a terrible preventer in an academic setting, or vice versa. And I wonder what's involved in that.
And if that can happen with situational compartmentalization, then there's a high chance that it means it can be trained due to how it can be different based on association. So I wonder if there's any studies on how to move from one mindset to another.
(I'm willing to bet 10 bucks it has something to do with Cognitive Behavioral Therapy, lol)
If you're a great promoter in games but a terrible preventer in an academic setting doesn't that just make you a promoter in general? Or did you mean terrible oxymoronically?
Regardless, I too wonder if it's a learned disposition and if it changes. I've been a preventer since I can remember and despite trying to embrace the promoter mindset haven't had changed much.
(Also I feel your pain with Demyx. He ended my playthrough of Kingdom Hearts 2 when I was little. It wasn't until 5-10 years later I was able to replay the game and finally beat him.)
@@robertmouse3782 lol I meant it oxymoronically. I realize how that could get confusing haha.
In my own case I think I always was more of a promoter overall, but like in some circles it definitely was more of a "trying not to lose" scenario instead of "figuring out how to win", like in academics. At some point I just embraced failure there as well and saw my wellbeing and grades steadily go up (with some hitches).
Wow. 5-10 years? I can't understand that mindset. I just came back the next day after school or something else similar.
I genuinely think it should be trainable, but the aspects of it are probably varying between individuals. Cognitive Behavioral Therapy really seems to help most people get over things like that, but I don't know how well that applies in practice after having done it for a while.
Is your name Role-Playing Game Grenade or Rocket-Propelled Grenade Grenade?
@@vitriolicAmaranth it's whatever you want it to be. That's been asked so many times I no longer remember.
"Dance water, dance!"
- Demyx
Celeste is one of those games that I have to put down for a long while before coming back to it because, while it is an incredible game it's also one that I get easily frustrated in trying to make it a long way through. However, it's easier for me to come back to it after jumping to a game like Persona 4, which is the sort of game that I find more enjoyable anyway.
On what difficulty level do you play Persona 4? I ask because I am curious, because it's actually the game I think of most when I think of walking away from a game forever. Don't get me wrong, it's actually my favourite game of all time - on Normal. I've done so many runs of that game, both the original and Golden that it is kind of ridiculous. I own Arena and Ultimax, it got me into playing 3 and 5. I love Persona 4. On Normal.
So I figure I know this game inside and out, lets play Hard just to say I did it, right? It was difficult, and I preferred Normal, but it wasn't that bad. I did a run or two, it was still really fun.
So let's play Very Hard just to say I did it, right? This is my favourite game of all time, I can beat Very Hard, right?
I tapped out most of the way through Rise's dungeon.
I COULD have kept going, but it just wasn't fun anymore. Everything was frustrating, a lot was unfair, the grinding was a nightmare. And honestly it really dampened my enthusiasm for the game as a whole. I still *say* it's my favourite game of all time, and I still love the music and the story and the characters to death, but now when I think about picking it up, even on Normal, I don't really want to as much anymore. When I do play it the dungeons feel a lot more in the way than they used to. It hasn't been the same since and if it wasn't my literal favourite game of all time I don't think I'd still play it after that experience
@GiftedContractor Custom. I set it up so both the enemy and I do more damage to each other, similar to P5's Merciless mode. I leave EXP on normal and set money higher so that it's easier to buy upgrades without having to grind an absurd amount (normal grinding is fine, but the modifier used for P4 is pretty bad). And that's on both a fresh file and NG+.
Yeah, I'm not surprised you tapped out in Rise's dungeon; by that point, if you aren't keeping up in levels, then it's just utterly painful (and this is a thing with all Persona games, although if you're smart in 5 and get Ryuji to Rank 7 ASAP, the grind more or less stops being a grind). I'm sorry that it soured your experience, though; in my 1000+ hours (between the PS2, Vita, and PC/Switch) I've never experienced burnout like I do with other games (I'm the same way with FF8). I hope that you can recapture the love for the game that you used to have (and still seem to, deep down).
The wrap up was amazingly delivered and super wholesome.
Felt it rightly on for that malenia example.
Took me about aprox 20 tries to beat her and did so only by a luckily placed blow that i didn't even know was gonna hit. But in between thos tries i went back to the roundtable, took my time watching my options then jumped back to it and so. Sometimes you just need to clear your head and take another approach without having to quit altogether.
Awesome video! Loved learning about this one! I have a random topic for you, in any game I play I always horde items 😅 like I never use items to their full potential thinking I could use them for a harder situation later. Just thought it would be cool to learn about the psychology of item hoarding.
🤔
chronic preventer here and it gets bad, often times after a series of losses you become something you don't recognize and it's incredibly tough to pull yourself out short of winning
this was somewhat comforting to watch after receiving the news I didn't get into the school I wanted after being so sure I would, as I've always been so academically inclined
definitely a preventer type, I don't see losing as "not ok" though. Generally when I leave a game unfinished it's not cause I quit after too many losses and more cause I just kinda didn't have time to play it for a week and then never picked it back up, or just never enjoyed it in the first place like gen 4 pokemon. I have a history of fighting games, mostly smash, and see practicing with people who can consistently beat me as the fun part, no labing in my house, trial by fire type practice only.
Elden ring was my first souls type game, and unironically my mentality does say the "I am better than I was last try" but not in the "I will win" overly prideful way but in a "I have seen the enemies attacks and practiced their timing that many more times, so even if it wasn't a noticeable growth, I have more experience now than before"
Though I also like to, if I hit a wall enemy, stop trying to win. Every like 3rd-4th try I'll take a second, take a sip of water and a deep breath, go in, and not attack, just watch and dodge for as long as I can. I also didn't let the crucible knight go when I found it, I only stopped long enough to find a soldier to get an actual sword and a pair of pants to kill the funny horse man.
The main mantra I've been going by in elden ring has been "I do visible damage to it, I can survive 2 hits before needing to heal, I have all the tools I need to win the fight." and it simply becomes a matter of experience with the boss. Sure, I could go get 30 more levels in an easy to grind area, but if I kill the thing in 10 hits and it takes 6 hits to kill me, then I'm kinda missing what the spirit of the game seems to be about.
In other words, as a fighting game player, "Find someone who can consistently beat you, it's the most fun way to get better"
I'm playing the Jak and Dexter Collection(currently on the begining of game 3) and those games are probably the hardest thing I have ever played. The controls are wonky, there is an incredible lack of checkpoints and it is constantly hard, from the frst level to the final. I get a bit ragey, but I tend to deal with it pretty well.
I fell like everyone has that second attempt when you come way too cocky and get humiliated. But I fell like, in my case, I get progressively more focused and more stressed the more I lose(and continue to do worse and worse) until I stop myself, calm myself down and remind myself to play for fun. That's when I start to do better and end up beating the level.
Bro thank you for producing Banger Videos
I've been taking AP Psych this year, and you've helped me through my classes so much, and have helped me remember a lot of these terms, because you're video are fun and addictive, so keep up the good work man!
I struggled a lot with theseus and the minotaur in Hades, rage quitted quite a lot but always came back to give it another shot, it took me like a whole week just to go past them but once I did it felt amazing and so worth it of the time spent
Shutting Theseus up was so satisfying
omg YES
"The end of Psych of Play is coming"???
I'm definitely more preventative in my daily life. I might even be one of those chronic preventers, and for games like Sekiro and DS1, yea I quit pretty soon after reaching a point that I tried and tried but just couldn't pass. However, in PvP games, THAT'S when my brain turns into being more of a promoter. I get angry and frustrated but in games like Smash or Lost Ark PvP, it's the human aspect which keeps me tied to the activity. Instead of trying to slap around a health bar until it's dead, I'm fighting other humans, other people with much the same potential for success as myself. I know that simply playing more is going to make me a better player, and when an opponent defeats me, I have respect for them instead of scorn (most of the time lol). I feel like it can't be a coincidence that I really only turn into a promoter when I'm challenged by other humans players. I am WAY more likely to walk away from a challenge when there's no human on the other end.
I'm the same way. I played competitive games like bw, wc3, sc2, LoL etc most of my life but I just don't find grinding bosses in soulslike enjoyable at all. It's definitely not challenge that i dislike. It probably has to do with soulslike games give you a seemingly impossibly job with odds greatly against you while in mp games the odds are more or less even. So when you lose in mp you just go better luck next time or maybe I could've played better. When you are struggling against a soulslike boss you are really questioning your ability if you can even beat the boss
I am _even more_ likely to permanently quit a PvP game, because I can't get good enough to beat people reliably. And, worse, if I ever do, I drive others off and even feel guilty for ruining their fun by causing them to lose.
PvP games are a lose-lose proposition for me: I either lose, and am misrable because of that, or I win, and feel badly for making somebody else lose.
Weridly enough, I USED to be a preventer, and knowing that it can be influenced by Depression is such a Eureka moment for me. Elden Ring was my first ever Fromsoft game, and no exaggeration, I feel like it basically cured a lot of my depression. It was a very very slow learning curve and I wanted to quit more times than I could count, but my pride perservered every time and eventually I got so used to losing that I slowly learned it wasn't a big deal. When I first beat Margit, it was a relief the suffering was over, I felt no joy at all. When I beat the final boss, I cried and jumped out of my chair, full of accomplishment and happiness.
I have since played every Fromsoft game and love them with all my heart, they have taught me not to give up no matter how bleak it seems, and have taught me to feel confident in my abilities and not attirbute wins to luck, or broken builds etc. My achievements are 100% earned through my own perserverence and hard work, and these values have bled into my real life and made me so much more confident and happy with who I am. I now feel like I have a healthy relationship with losing, I never would've guessed that the most brutal games out there would be the best treatment for my mental health.
Oh man, just starting this now but I feel like it's gonna be the video I didn't know I needed.
Thanks for the content, always a good watch
*Most games go like this:*
1. I get close to beating a boss, but I die.
2. I try again and don't take it as seriously, trying to learn how to prevent failure.
3. I die in every conceivable way.
4. I finally get a good run going, master the boss, and win.
*Hollow Knight goes like this:*
1. I get close to beating a boss, but I die.
2. I try to get back to the boss, but I die.
3. I get back to the boss with 1 health left, and I don't even get a chance to learn the boss before dying.
4. I think to myself "I'm probably going the wrong way and wandering into a hard place I shouldn't be at."
5. I look up a walkthrough and realize that I'm on the only path possible at this point in the game.
6. I give it my best, trekking 5 minutes to get to the boss as carefully as possible.
7. I finally get to the boss and learn its pattern over many, many deaths.
8. I BEAT THE BOSS!!! WITH 1 HEALTH LEFT, BUT HEY I BEAT IT!!!
9. It has a second form.
10. It smashes me into the ground and I die instantly.
11. I quit forever.
let me guess, soul master?
So assuming you’re talking about Soul Master, his phase 2 is actually really easy, you just dash back and forth until he starts summoning orbs and then hit him a bunch until he dies. You can also upgrade your nail, open up shortcuts to get to him faster, or just skip him altogether, he’s optional if you buy the Lumafly Lanturn from Sly.
@@crowwithashortcake I looked it up and yeah, that's the one!
I actually did give it a second try a while back! My adrenaline was pumping in a way that felt uncomfortable, lol. I don't remember if I died to the 2nd form again or I died on my way back to the bench, but it was still more than I could handle.
I wish I could have afforded to buy any upgrades but I've never made it to a shop with more than 0 currency. 😔
It's just too hard a game for me. I can get half a dozen Golden Berries in Celeste, but Hollow Knight is waaay above my skill level.
I had almost this exact experience with Dancer in Dark Souls III, and that's the only instance in recent times where I've been filtered cuz the game was legitimately too hard.
2:51 It's ok, Daryl, I'm sure one day you'll be able to grow facial hair.
your videos always end up being more interesting than I expect, mad respect
This and the seizing and freezing video go hand in hand I think, with our ability’s and needs for winning and losing and whether you can keep playing or not.
YOU WATCH CDAWGVA LESSGOOOOOOO 🗿🗿🗿🗿🙏🙏🙏
I've been playing Armored Core 2 recently. That game has been absolutely kicking my ass. I'd get killed several times, try different builds in a desperate attempt to beat the next Raven in the arena, or I'd try to come up with a new strategy to beat the mission I've failed 4 times. The thing I've found is that taking breaks VASTLY improves my performance when I come back. I'll stop playing for like a day or sometimes a week or two, then I come back and the challenge that was close to impossible for me is suddenly either just easy enough that I can clear it, OR it becomes borderline trivial. I've had so many times these past few months where I'd come back later and climb like 4-5 ranks in the arena or complete like 3 missions in a row.
Awesome video Daryl, you never stop with these bangers! If you've ever played monster hunter I think losing and winning is a big part of that game sometimes. Thank you for your awesome work man!
you re the channel i wish i had the guts to make; thank you for your work and courage
Thank you for this video. On the "Dark souls saves you" I commented about what you're calling "toxic breakup" with Souls game and I'm glad that you're exploring this aspect too!
As someone who was a chronic preventer who was falling into deeper depression, a reality shift, such as realising losing is an oppurtunity for growth rather than a reason to quit, it quite turned my life around, I understand it isn't easy for everyone, but to take a loss and learn is to take one and regret
You just described me. I am more of a Preventer and it's affecting my life in a very negative way. It is as if I have to not lose every time or else I am not allowed to live. I think I will try to learn to "tame" this side of me. I cannot just get rid of it.
Anyways a great video! Always excited to watch them. You always give me something to think about or change my perspective on things.
Your channel is amazing. Congratulations for all the effort you put in your videos. Big fan
You basically described my personality when it comes to losing as preventer
There was this one boss I hated so much I honestly felt like I wouldn’t be able to sleep without finishing what I started once I finally beat it I felt no pride or joy just relief that it was finally over and I could move on from it
Perfect timing with this one. I just finally managed to beat Hornet after taking DAYS to learn to time her attacks and avoid them. I'm pleased that beating her was just a relief, but a triumphant reward that I knew I had worked very hard to reach. Though I am relieved that I don't need to worry about cursing to loudly anymore, my family computer is in the dining room and I've had some close calls with yelling profanities at the screen while my mom's been on the phone
The more I watch your videos the more I notice the great use of RR Type 4 Soundtrack, Im loving it!
This was surprisingly inspirational, kind of like a psychology self-help video doubling as game analysis. It really made me think about how I tackle challenges in life. I'm pretty Promotion-minded while gaming, but I realized I'm more prevention-minded in other things. Realizing this gave me an extra spurt of courage whenever I was faced with those kinds of challenges.
Thanks for the video.
Absolutely amazing video, the general sphere and mood created is so entertaining and comforting. So thank you.
My toughest loss would be Dark Souls 3's first boss, Iudex Gundyr. I had never played a Souls game before that time, and I was still getting used to the very responsive controls that I wasn't familiar with compared to other action games. Usually when you input something in most games, they register that one input and nothing else no matter how many times you input those other things, but I noticed in the Iudex Gundyr fight that my panic presses for rolling to get my guy to roll as soon as possible registered 2 rolls back to back despite me not pressing roll after I see myself roll. In other games, you have to finish your state change of an action and return to a normal state before receiving inputs to change states again, but in this game, it seemed to function differently, and it took me a bit of practice to confidently press the button for rolling once every time I wanted to roll. Either that happened, or I had massive input lag and didn't notice after four playthroughs.
I've been working so hard at moving and pushing to become more of a promotional rather than a preventative focus. I used to be really extreme. So hard on myself and felt awful any time i failed anything and felt i SHOULD be able to do it. I HAVE to be able to do it.
Luckily i've made progress now, i can fail and use it as a learning experience most of the time. It's still a struggle sometimes... and what you talked about in another video with momentum it still has a massive impact on me if i succeed or fail, both snowballing heavily after the fact. I have a lot more work to do, but i'm glad i've come as far as i have.
I just fought with a friend that I think I'm never gonna see again, so this video came at a good time. Thanks!
Really thankful for this video right when I needed it the most
Great timing, I didn't clean it out of my watch later list after the last time I watched it, so I rewatched it.
Currently running against a burn-out, and part of this video applies well to that. Why can I take a loss in certain things, and why am I preservering on work, while I need a break or a change of pace?
Thanks, Daryl, for giving me an entry to this perspective.
I loved this. Thanks for always putting this much research and informative stuff into these videos. They are always a treat and I am looking forward to the next one.
Completely agree, the fear of losing is a huge hindrance, especially in fighting games. There was a fighting game I was climbing the ladder for, and I was completely stuck in the mid-tier. It felt like I was losing half the games, and it was getting really frustrating. Eventually, I decided to start recording my games so I could watch them and see where I was making mistakes. This helped dramatically, and I started winning 75% to 80% of the games in that part of the ladder.
The strange part was, I only watched one or two of my matches. Ever.
The only thing that _really_ changed was my mentality. It stopped becoming "Oh shoot I'm losing shoot shoot shoot" to "Yes, hit me. Give me your tricks so I can study them." But by being in that mindset, I started studying them right there, in the match itself.
It was almost as though I was distancing myself from my state in the game. I could lose a round or two, and it wouldn't bother me in the slightest. I would actually get excited, fascinated as to why my tactics weren't working against this opponent. I'd start experimenting, and often my experiments would actually work.
In that sense, losing became fun.
I think my biggest loss was in Hollow Knight's Pantheon of Hallownest. In one of my attempts, I reached the final boss and died to her while she was quite literally one hit away. It was a ridiculously dumb mistake and I only lost because I didn't press a single button. It broke me. I took a break from the game for 6 months, came back, and beat it on the next try.
That game definitely taught me a lot about taking an L and improving from past mistakes.
Thank you) Now i do understand myself better. The strong desire for not to exist, deep inside of me - it is an aspiration to prevent everything forever.
I play quite a bit of competitive, hard or hard-ish games, but my outlook was always to just have fun, and in the long run it's what keeps me glued to these games, because there are small and big things that overshadow the difficulty. In a PvP situation I just try to be as nice as I can, even if tilted.
From my recent experiences, I seem to lean towards promotion for most games and activities. Whenever I seem to “lose”, “fail”, or notice a decline in my performance, I often choose to set the game aside and find something more accessible. I feel as if I enjoy certain games, primarily those that offer a challenge and are action-oriented, under certain circumstances.