PERCUSSION REVOLVER SERIES WHAT SIZE ROUND BALL IN A 44
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- čas přidán 16. 07. 2024
- .44 CAL PERCUSSION REVOLVERS ARE EVERYWHERE.THE QUESTIONS IS WHICH IS THE CORRECT ROUND BALL TO SHOOT IN THEM AT THE RANGE.IN THIS VIDEO I TALK OF THE SIZES OF ROUND BALL COMMONLY USED IN .44 REVOLVERS
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By far, Blackie is far more professional and informative than others. His analytical mind permits him to ensure that detailed data is provided. Because of this, the work he puts into these videos is of greater importance to the viewers than those that merely "touch the surface" regarding percussion revolvers. Very impressive ... ALSO, his voice is easy to listen to as a well-educated Teacher.
This was an excellent tutorial. I learned a lot and took the Mystery out of the different sized balls. Thanks. Love your videos!
Awesome! Thank you!
What he said
Was always taught, "the ring of approval"
Thanks for great fun series 👍
Glad you enjoyed it
Thanks Blackie, I never miss any of your black powder series. Your 'common' sense style is perfect and the editing excellent. Regards, Al
thank you very much..i am gonna try and do one each week on wed..we will see how well it goes
Out in Nebraska I had only one supply of lead round balls, they only stocked the .451 lead round ball.
The balls were a slip fit in my revolver, I ended up bumping the ball up a tad, I set the ball on a hard flat surface and smaked it with a hammer to swell the ball enuf to shave a ring on loading.
It saved driving 3 hours to a source lead balls.
Back in 1980's it was best to mail order what you could.
Helped me alot to understand the mechanics of everything, lots to learn still, thank you for the video
I’ve used 451s in an anachronistic 1851 Navy for years (Historically accurate 1851s were 36 cal, and never existed in 44).
I always seat them on top of a prelubed wad to prevent chainfires (1/8” thick Durafelt soaked in a melted mixture of 1 pound lamb tallow, 1/2 pound beeswax).
sounds good
Thanks, Blackie.
Fantastic video. Thanks for the in-depth review and explanation. For those of us that are new to BP this video really explained a lot. Thank you.
Hey Blackie always great to see a new video from you, very informative as always. I just finished converting one of my Pietta 1858 Remingtons to 45 Colt using the new 6 shot gated converter from Howells paired with the improved ejector from Kirst. A bit on the expensive side but very pleasing results. Something you may want to check out in the future if you haven't already. Thanks again.
Good information, well presented. Much of this information took me years to find on my own in the seventies. Sure wish we would've had CZcams back then!
Glad it was helpful!
Something you might consider is keeping a 3 ring notebook dedicated to each gun to put the targets in as you work up the loads. For the last 48 years, I've written the load and date on the target and filed them in the notebook dedicated to that gun. I can look back almost half a century and instantly see what loads in that gun grouped the best with the various load changes and better recognize patterns.
i do something like that as well
Great video. You answered all my questions. Thank you
This was a very welcomed and informative video. Thanks Blackie
Glad you enjoyed it
Thanks Blackie, great info!
My pleasure!
You are a really good teacher!
Thank you! 😃
Another great tutorial, Blackie. Keep up the good work.
i will do my best
Superb lesson, we all really do appreciate your input into teaching us to become wiser c&b users!
Glad you enjoyed it!
I bought the .454 mold, has a nice ring when loaded. I figured oversize was better since chambering the balls works almost like a sizer.
The pocket pistols were a little more difficult, all i could find was .311 or .315 which were both looser than I'm comfortable with. Just finally found a decent .319 mold that is perfect..
That's good info. Thanks, Blackie.
Any time!
Awesome video as usual! I have learned so much about BP revolvers from your channel. I truly believe if you compiled related segments together you could make an awesome dvd on different topics surrounding the percussion revolver that would be worth buying. Thanx again!
maybe one day
How can I pre-order?
Love the videos.
Happy to see this series
there is lots more to come
Well discussed and presented. While I am pretty new to this, I have gone the seal route by the brand on the bullet. I drive a ball/bullet in, do Blackies check but then also drive it out as centered as I can with a punch. I have an 76 ASP and a current NMA. Both give me 1/4 inch bands with a .457 ball (that is what came with the ASP). From the Pietta book and with Blackie discussion, I have concluded I can probably use a .454 ball (the JD conical s are .460). Pietta recommends a .454 ball in their current manual. If I get the Ruger Old Model Army that will start with the .457 ball and JD conical. There is a lot to learn in this area, more complex than reloading ammunition in many ways. An added bit for those getting older BP revolvers, in the case of the ASP at least, the chambers are tapered. No shaved lead but you can see it coating lead a bit down the chamber and it does create the 1/4 inch band. I did some careful testing before I went with multiple loaded cylinders. As an aside, the ASP cones are quite good, the Pietta NMA are awful and have been replaced.
good stuff Blackie"I've considered these thing's but this is purely conclusive"..I've wndrd bout the ball's walkin back and increasing pressure one shot to the next"..i creep up on max/most efficient charge but want a balance and I'm reading the lead ring with .454 as perfectly fit in my chamber after this tutorial"..you keep rockin it ddode".
Thank you very much for this excellent video.
Glad it was helpful!
Very good information for the novice
Great information thank you!
Very good video! Hi from France Blackie!
hello and welcome to the channel safe journeys
Thanx bro I forced a 50 sabot in mine to see if I could cause they are cheap and I got a fat ring but with ffg powder it still had a good pop
Thank you!
Difference in measuring barrels , actually . They used to measure the 'bore' diameter (@ .445-.447 in today's repro's) as opposed to the diameter of the groove lands (@ .451-.454 in our modern repros). Oddly , the ".44" cylinder bores are universally undersized as to barrel sizes as well , and benefit from bullet seats being "upgraded" by pasting a bullet with valve grinding paste and given a 15 minute lapping per cylinder bore .
Thanks Blackie, I needed to rewatch this one. Due to Covid, the bp gunmakers in Italy got in a big rush to catchup production, so qc slipped abit giving me a Pietta 1858 Remington .44 with 6 different sized chambers that failing to change cutting bits likely caused. My gunsmith fixed it and recommended the 457 balls and said also to load it up so the ball or conical bullet is as close to the cylinder edge as possible, which sounds weird but makes sense. So Im off to buy 457 balls and conicals and see.
best of luck to you
Excellent insightful video!
Good morning Backie!
You did an excellent job "clearing" the "Fog" on a confusing subject.
Sizing a percussion revolver to a projectile is important.
I beleive in "Slugging" the Bore" with a Round Ball or one of my Universal Bullets.
How I do this is I first remove the cylinder from the revolver. Then I take a short (4 +inches long) piece of 2x4 wood and I line up the projectile on the center of the muzzle of the barrel and I use a Plastic Tent State Mallet and hammer strike in the projectile into the bore.
I then take a Muzzleloading Ball Bullet Starter and push with my palm in the projectile as far as it goes into the barrel and lastly I use a Muzzleloading Pistol Ramrod or Hardwood Dowle with a Wood "Hand Savior" used for aiding in pushing a Ramrod pushing projectile down a Muzzleloader's rifled bore I finally Drive ( push) the projectile through the barrel until the Ball/ Bullet exists the barrel.
Then I take my Caliper to measure the Ball or Bullet several times writing down each of the dimension of the Ball/ Bullet. I then measure each of the Cylinder chambers width's - dimensions as well as the Barrel diameter at the Muzzle.
All dimensions taken are recorded and calculated against each other.
If the cylinder dimensions show a proportionaly smaller gap( under size) compared to the bore size measurement I will send the cylinder to my friend Master Black Powder Gunsmith Dykes Reber of the muzzleloadershop.com located in Berryville Arkansas for neccessary
Reaming which Enlarges the width daimeter of the cylinder chambers.
Afterwards I will reblue a blued cylinder.
Some Shooters and Hunters have been asking if my Custom 6 Cavity Universal Bullet molds in 44/45 and 36 caliber are available.
To answer them,Yes all of my custom Universal Bullet molds are available for immidate shipment.
Please direct all inquiries to kaido93@hotmail.com.
I like your "Percussion Wednesday"
Videos they are definitely a plus for all percussion revolver users!
thank you sir i will be testing your fine ammo very shortly
Glad it was helpful!
@@blackoracle69
That sounds good.
If you need any of my 44/45 Universal Bullet in 220/240/255 grains or my 36 caliber 140 and 145 versions. Let me know and I will get you them.
Blackie, my two Pietta Remington 1858 New Army Revolvers had .446 chambers, but have .451 bores which cannot be good for accuracy. A smaller diameter ball wobbling down a larger barrel will negatively affect accuracy. My Ruger Old Army has .452 chambers and a .451 barrel, which is why it uses a .457 round ball. I opened up the chambers of my 1858 New Army revolvers to .4525 so I will be using .457 round balls (I already had the mold). This should improve the accuracy of the revolvers. Great video as always, Blackie.
very true i have had a fun guns with undersize chambers..it can be a challenge to find the right combo to get accurracy
Hi Blackie, if you have a ball that is too big, you can carefully roll the ball or bullet between two pieces of glass to create a driving band. This technique was used by old time target shooters to eliminate voids in cast bullets and eliminate variations in cast bullets. Another trick they used was to sewage a bullet in three parts with the driving band of soft lead. To obtain a consistent size include a proper sized marble or steel ball with the ball you are making and roll them together. More than one way to skin a cat.
true i have cast lead bullets with a mold and 2 kinds of lead..one hard one dead soft..to make a soft point bullets with a hard driving bands
I just purchased 2 Colt replica's - Uberti and Pietta . . . and 2 Remington replica's, both Uberti's - all in .44. . . all of them came in shaving a perfect sized ring off of a .451 ball, so it looks like they are more or less consistent on that size. Also, for those who cast their own balls, if the balls are slow cooled out of the mold, as opposed to dropped into a water bucket, they tend to be about 1-2 thousandths smaller . . . typically you get a nominal ball out of slow cooling, and a bit larger with rapid cooling.
Thanks Blacky great info. I'm finding my brand new 1851 Navy is not holding the LED balls very tight at 454 I may need to jump up to 457 thank you
great video thank you
Glad you enjoyed it
I was using .457 ball in my Ruger Old Army 44 cal It was a real tight and I bent the loading lever at the top due to the the stress in compressing the ball it cost $ 40 to replace just the upper rod you suggested using 454 which works great , Ruger seems to have a larger bored out cylinder than my Colt made by Colt in 1973 which I think would be OK using 451 ball without affecting the accuracy , thanks for your suggestion
glad to be of help
Blackie i just purchased a Uberti 1858 in .44 cal it was on sale at midway use for 339$ along with the powder accessories, i just won a bid on ebay for a lyman 2 cavity .454 round ball mold which i believe will suffice for reliability, your black powder knowledge is hands down against the rest of the other black powder experts by giving accurate details on the subject of black powder revolvers, it does make a great difference adding more bearing surface by using a larger diameter ball but at what price? this is my 1st go around with black powder and i,m very excited with my new hobby, i will be seeking your videos for black powder guidance thank you for your information.
Nicely done, Blackie! Snowy day here, so I sat and watched *almost* all of your percussion revolver series. Got 2 Colts and 2 Remies, learned a TON, and kept notes! Question: What about slugging the barrel? Any info on that? I've heard about taking a ball and "pounding" it down the muzzle to get the true barrel bore diameter, and using that to get the correct ball/conical for that pistol. Your video discussed the cylinder only. Recommendations?
i have slugged the bore but only if i am having accuracy issues . usually guns from the factory are very close..and will be a good match cyl to bore size..but if i have done my tune up and all seems right but its just not shooting well then i will slug bore to see if its a cyl / bore issue if bore is under size for cyl throat accuracy usually pretty good..but a bore too large for cyl throats is a smoke maker and best sold to a civil war guy that wants to shoot blanks
Excellent useful thanks
Glad it was helpful!
i buy .44 balls for my 45 caliber rifle' then i buy .454 for .44 caliber revolver. and found double aught buck for my 31 cal. love black powder shooting... now learning what the FFF works best
This man wants to shares good information not show what he can do. Great video/knows his shit/thanks
I use 457 because its all i could find, 454 is sold out everyyyywhere online, 451 i can find some.. but i dont want undersized, so i bought 3 100 ball boxes in cabelas of 457... 457 actually makes a nice ring in both my 1851 navy.. and this gun is EXTREMELY accurate.. i can shoot into the same holes on my target paper from my prior shots.. Both 1851 navy in 44cal i have, are LIGHTYEARS more acurrate than my 1911 and my glock 19. Its crazy.. because of this i actually carry both loaded when i go to the store sometimes.. i know thats silly to some of you but ya.
The pietta i have the intructions say to use 454.. but again i couldnt find 454.. and 457 isnt that hard to load to be honest
I did the same thing just bought a 1858 Pietta new army sheriff and I too bought the 457s because there’s nothing else and I’m gonna use triple 7 powder with them I’m hoping for primer accuracy
Thanks!
No problem!
if your chambers are chamfered then there will be no lead shaving. Best case is listen to what the manufacturer says is the size. Some gun like my CVA 1858 Remington says .451. The Navy Arms 1858 Remington is unmarked and uses the .454..
Thanks Blackie really enjoy your percussion revolver videos. One question can you use a Cowboy action soft lead cartridge bullet
(.452) in a percussion revolver. Getting it to sit straight in the chamber may be the problem as I see it. Thanks.
yep thats the problem i have used 45 acp leads before but take my advice look up eras gone bullet molds a kerr bullet or a johnson and dow will be far easier to load and give good results
Blacker I am brand new to B.P. I have a 1858 .44 and on order a 1851 .36 colt I bought 451 for the 1858 3.75 for the colt. My question is instead of me worrying if the .451 might be too small can I play it safe and just buy .454 now? even if the 1858 is good with the 451's and what size could I use in the .36 so i can pretty much order balls and be pretty sure it is big enough BTW you are very knowledgeable and interesting to listen too
Bob from Fl.
Blackie I have an Uberti 1860 army colt 44 the paper work says to use.. 454 in it my problem is the 454 goes in without shaving off a ring of lead and I've had round balls just fall out of the gun so I have been using 490 round balls in it just a little harder to ram them in but they don't fall out and I do get a ring of lead
Thanks for the video .
I have recently started melting my own lead to cast bullets . Have you done or will you be doing any videos on casting your own bullets?
i have been doing my own for many yrs ..i am kinda on the fence to do it for the channel since youtube is so finicky on making any kind of ammo sort of thing i may do a test video just to see how it is treated
I have ,454 in my walker. It shaved the ball but it stayed down in the cylinder with the ball.
I thought they classified them as 44s or 36s as that was what the barrel measured internally before it was rifled
(they measured land to land an we nowadays measure groove to groove)
correct over time we change how we measured..
I use 457 in all my revolvers. The ball will be shaved (compressed) down to cylinder bore size anyway, so what difference does it make if you use 451, 454 or 457. Since I also have some ROA in my mix of cap and ball revolvers, I just go with the larger round ball size. Shoot well in all my cap and ball revolvers and don't have to sort balls.
I know it's not designed for cartridges, but seeing that Johnson and dow on that 45 acp, I wonder if the lube Grove would seat into the case and give you proper OAL to fit in the magazine... Or be long enough in 45 colt to give proper OAL.
it will seat into a 45 acp and crimp into lube grove..BUT.. the bullet is so long (a lot of it is that point ) your gonna need a seating stem to match
I will sayt awesome How about wonder wads tween ball powder, these deter the dreaded chain fire?
Muzzle loaders were (and still are!) caliber designated by bore diameter (Land-to-land of rifled bore). Caliber-designating by rifling groove-to-groove began to be used as metallic cartridges were developed in te 1850's/60's/70's. So a 45 ACP pistol, with a 0.443" bore and 0.451" groove is a "44" in muzzle loading terms, but a "45" in breech loading terms. This is why the "44" Army C&B revolvers can shoot breech loading cartridges that are "45" caliber! For best accuracy, a C&B revolver (Ruger Old Army example) with a 0.452" rifling groove should have a cylinder chamber diameter of 0.453", and the round ball/conical bullet diameter should be at least 0.457" (4/1000" larger than chamber diameter) for a proper seal and friction fit. Even larger doesn't hurt. For example Pietta "44" chambers are 0.446" typical diameter, so a 0.451" ball will work fine, but a Ruger 0.457" ball will work as well too, possibly even better due to the larger bearing surface of the larger ball after seating. Exact ball size isn't all that critical in a C&B revolver, as long as the ball is at least 4/1000" larger than the chamber. Even 10 or 12 thousands larger is OK, because the loading lever will easily swage the oversize projectile into the chamber mouth! Better to be larger than needed, as it is the undersized projectile that can cause a chain fire, or jump the chamber under recoil and tie up the action!
and the larger ball will create a wider driving band( due to the swaging effect )
Wish they had a "really like" button!
My ASM Walker has one chamber oversized that always shoots lower. That is marked and never loaded my safety notch.
Great information Blackie, thank you. Wish I would have know this years ago!
Glad it was helpful!
Thanks mr blackie!.....i am 60, and retired. i just purchased a uberti walker 44 cal revolver. i am also new to blackpowder shooting, and i have yet not shot the revolver as its hunting season here in pa, and out of respect to my fellow hunters i will wait till the season is over. my range is in my backwoods. in the mean time i have been learning alot from you, and others. this video helped me out alot as well. i really like that shirt too!....lol. keep up the good work sir!
"Just a grunt bigger"
Hadn't heard that one before.
I am new to bp and have a 1851 navy snubnose. i got .454 cuz my neighbor said that is what he used to shoot in them decades ago. but did I make a mistake. I have made about 20 cartridges so far, getting ready to go to the range. but should i go and buy .451 and make those also or will I be ok with these. I would love some advice please. thanks y'all and btw great video I learned a lot
454 should be perfect
Wild hair brother, have you ever loaded the kaido .36 in a paper cartridge? Just thinking. Thanks brother.
so they are actually .448-.449, thank you so much
are these revolver chambers the same diameter as the barrel?
Im trying to find a mold for 454 balls but they are purged right now. Impossible to find even auction ebay. Can only find 457.
Thankyou Blackie, you are educating me on black powder. I just bought my first pietta and don't quite know much about them but am really learning a lot by your down home precision teaching here.
I have a Pietta Wyat Earp with a 12 " bbl with a longer rammer, I use Hornady .490 ball with a .oo5 patch. it would be a stretch but I am going to try to load the.490 ball. what do you think my chances are? Should I chamfer the chambers or not. I am going to try without.
I use 454
QUESTION SIR: What is your opinion on reaming the chambers to ensure concentrisity and consistent size. ie. .449 or .450? Also chamfering the forcing cone to 11° ? Thanks for the info.
i have dont that in effect in guns over the yrs..i have found unless a chamber was way undersize it did not help in a big way..but the forceing cone did make difference..often a simple polish job would improve accuracy
Ever try to shoot a minie ball? Do you use the same diameter?
Hey Blackie....SInce you mentioned the cylinder chamber possibly not being all the same diameter or even truly round, could you touch on or recommend a procedure for maing them uniform....like reaming the chambers?
only a really good plug gauge will show if its out of round..and you could go to brownells and they have reamers for such jobs
Have you ever looked in to the relationship between you chamber sizes and the bore/groove diameters of your guns. Have you ever opened up chambers to better fit your barrels ?
i have in the past it was a common problem of chambers way undersize for the bores..but today quality control is way way better..and i have not had a undersize in quite a awhile..what i have found is as long as at least the chamber is a bit larger..(say chamber of 451 to a 451 bore) everything is good..plus pure lead ammo will bump up usually and fill the bore better
@@blackoracle69 I keep letting my smokeless big bore thought process creep in. I dont get bump up with linotype or heat treated lead and have had to open my ruger up a good bit to make it shoot well.
Hello Blackie, I came across a statement from other videos called the somethin or uther of diminishing returns, regarding increase in velocity to a point where no more can be had due to barrel length and whatnot, would this make an 1860 army and a walker near about even in power? The average was somewhere around 35, 40 grains of powder and 1100 fps. Numbers may be off but just looking for a rough estimate, i know some powders are better than others.
at face value you would think that..but in field work the walker is a good deal more powerful..than many of our modern guns today unless its a magnum odds are the walker is stronger..and remember the walker lead to the dragoons 1st thru 3rd..then came the 1860..which is effect the last dragoon the 1860 is a powerful gun..
since I live in commifornia, it is hard to get to a range, all the time due to covid and politics etc.., and I can't very well go test shooting in my backyard. lol. that would b a one way ticket to the sherriff's office. lol. so is there a way to test the size ball without having to shoot it, to get it out of the chamber after. like would it b ok to remove the nipple and then ram the ball in by itself to see if it has a good fit and then push it out the hole that the nipple would have covered? or do I have to actually shoot the thing to know if it has a good fit. range time is hard to get right now and I am trying to b as prepared as I can b with all my cartridges made and caps made ahead of time, so when I get there and pay by the half hour, I dont have to waste time making anything. I dont have alot of money and I wanna b able to spend every min I have at the range, learning how to shoot correctly etc.. instead of having to spend my time making my amo and then not having any time left to shoot.. thanks for the video btw. u have helped me out immensly with ur videos :)
Will a 454 be good in a Uberti 1860 44cal revolver? And should I put a wad between them? Or can i shoot it dry if I clean it good? And what are your thoughts on using 30 grain pyrodex pellets with revolvers? I just want to be safe when shooting my first time thanks,
454 will work..a wad is best or a smear of lube over ball keels the bore from running dry and causing ledding and fouling
My Ruger Old Army I used 457 ball I broke the loading lever switched to 454 much better to load .
Been watching everything I can on sizing. long time handloader here. what I have always gone by is that the chamber needs to be a couple of thou BIGGER than the bore. the bore to me is the grooves not the lands. BP guys (and I am one for a few years) are telling me that an undersized chamber (compared to bore) is fine since the holy ring of lead on seating is all that counts. Sooo sending a .446 bullet down a .452 bore is fine... because that ball is oblonged and it engages the rifling a couple of thou. I do not buy this. I say to size the chambers (ream) em to a couple of thou less than bore. in my scenario (and what I do) you ream the cylinder to say 452 for a .451 bore. If the holy ring of lead is what you want you get balls that are .454 or even bigger. Why does the Ruger old Army need a .457 ball? well... if the chambers were .446 say. you could not force a ball into em. No.. the chambers or cyl is like 452+ and the bore is something close to that. They are very accurate guns. they do not send an overly small ball down the bore.
Hi Blackie. I swapped out a few parts on my old Colt to preserve some of the antique parts. I installed a new cylinder, hammer and hand from a new 1860 Uberti. I had to do a bit of fitting and timing work but everything seems to be OK and the timing is on. I noticed a problem when I lowered the hammer down onto the safety pin between the chambers. If I rotate the cylinder to about half way between the safety pin and the nipple, I can lower the hammer then cock it and the cylinder rotates and everything works fine. If I rotate the cylinder then lower the hammer so it it centered right on the safety pin I can't cock the hammer again. Any ideas why ?
yes the cyl bolt stop is locking in position and not unlocking until you fiddle with the hammer..the legs of the bolt are jamming the hammer
@@blackoracle69 Thanks Blackie. Other than this issue I've got it working really well and the timing is right on. I could live with it as it is and use it. I could just let the hammer down just before the safety pin for a safe position with 6 loaded but if there is any easy fix I might give it a try. Do I just need to tweak/trim the bolt stop. and is there a chance I might have to readjust something else if I do? I could try changing out the Cylinder/bolt stop as it came from a from a gun that matched the hammer. I will maybe try that and see if it fixes the issue.
My gun is 440
i have an 1851 navy .44 cal. i bought .44 cal - .443''. the ball seems to be too small for the chamber. do i need a bigger size ball?
yes they need .451 or 454 443 is for a 45 rifle with a patch
@@blackoracle69
thank you. and shit i meant to put .433''
Thought you’d shoot each size....
Are you able to shoot a 40cal ball out of a 44cal black powder pistol?
afraid not..in 45 cal rifles the ball is .440 the thick patch makes up the thickness needed to reach .451 in a revolver you need ball larger to swage down to proper size so 451 to 457
@@blackoracle69 thanks. How bout the 36cal? Can they be used in any lower caliber blk powder pistol?
@@blackoracle69 I'm just now getting into black powder pistols. But I've seen conversation kits to load old cowboy rounds.
@@Hunterslife315 the 40 cal ball sadly would be a really hard press in the 36 which is 375 to 380..
@@blackoracle69 so best thing to use is out of a rifle?