Round Balls vs. Conicals
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- čas přidán 27. 08. 2024
- This video is an accuracy comparison between round balls and conical bullets. Both will be fired, using the 1847 Colt Walker. Be sure to subscribe to my channel for more videos. Thanks for watching!
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Aw hell. I owned a 1847 10+ years ago, but sold it after losing interest in BP shooting. But you've made me want one again...
Thanks for watching!
You should shoot some conicals vs round ball into some ballistic gel while using a chronograph. It would be interesting to see the differences in ballistics, penetration, bullet deformation, etc
that would b good to know. I am new to BP and would love for a video like that, also
While standing on his head whistling dixie. This test good.
Or a ballistic dummy head would be cool too
An interesting result,- Dragoon with 207g w/41g went through 6 boards at 50y. The Walker with 175g 'Picket' w/47g went through 4 boards at 50y. However, after the first board, the Picket began tumbling and greatly damaged the boards. Irregular penetration path and shards. The Dragoon ball made a clean and straight path.
A round ball is both shorter and lighter than a conical bullet. The combination of lower mass plus more room for a powder charge means the round ball can be considered the 'express' projectile for muzzloading revolvers, offering higher velocity for a longer point blank range.
Conicals, on the other hand, are just plain better in terminal ballistics. They hit harder and do so at longer ranges. That's why they're the favored projectile on the battlefield or a hunt.
Another consideration is material economics: For .44 caliber guns, you can cast projectiles on a roughly 3:2 ratio between round balls and conical bullets. For every 12 conicals you cast, you could make 18 round balls with the same amount of lead. Out on the frontier or any other situation where lead is in limited supply, you can opt for casting round balls in order to stretch out that supply across as many guns as you have.
One problem with conicals is recoil, dove tails open up and they tend to loosen things up quite a bit.
Beautiful Colt Walker btw!
Appreciation for classic steel is the mark of a true gentleman!!
It would be really cool to see a gel test comparing the two types of bullets.
Dustin, I don't know anything about guns, never fired one, but you are such a sweet and charismatic man that I had to subscribe.
Thanks for watching and subscribing!
Good shooting! Looks like those conicals are very accurate.
They sure are. I love ‘em! Thanks for watching!
@@GunsOfTheWest where can I purchase those conical bullets for 44 cal. Revolver?
@@6496chase Here: www.bonanza.com/listings/-44-Caliber-Johnston-Dow-Bullet-Mold-Civil-War-Era-Revolver-Bullet-Mold/471318912 They are sold out at the moment.
Nice shooting! Always enjoy your videos....informative...often funny.....just plain good!
Thank you!
Gotta say, I got your paper cartridge former, I love it! Made a couple hundred so far. It's very handy! Glad I got it! Thank you
Nice job Dustin, I was under the impression the round balls were more accurate.
Again thank you very much. You and your Family have a wonderful Thanksgiving.
Wow, very impressive. I will have to try that ERA bullet in my Whitneyville Dragoon.
Great stuff, Dustin! Good comparison.
Thanks, Santee!
Good job Dustin. I bet those carbonated bandits hit the trail this morning.
Aren't round balls and conical bullets different weights? They are definitely different shapes. I'm new to black powder but have had modern guns for years and reload for them. When trying to make an accurate round for a particular gun, the powder charge depends on the size and shape of the bullet. You can probably formulate a great accurate shot with either round or conicle bullets by experimenting with different amounts of powder. There are guys on here with very accurate black powder guns, it probably just takes some work. I liked both of Dustin's groups. With non adjustable sights, you just have to figure out where to hold and your good. Great video as usual!
The Lee Conical .450 is the way most BP 44 caliber revolver shooters go for a conical bullet, due to many modern bp revolvers not being able to load the sharper pointed and slightly more period correct Johnston and Dow bullet without either loading it with a seperate press outside the gun frame or modifying the frame and loading arm to accept it. The Lee can be used in all modern BP revolvers without any modifications.
It simply isn't worth the hassle and extra cost and trouble it takes for the casual shooter to use Johnston and Dow conicals, and the benefit you receive Vs a Lee or round ball is nearly nonexistent. Many swear by the Lee and get excellent groupings that do consistently do better than round ball. You do get a higher point of aim with them though. Different shooters will often get different results though with different types of powder (real Vs substitute etc) type of lubes or wad etc. Many different variables can change results. With a Lee conical you can get a more historically accurate civil war era round, even if it isn't identical, with none of the hassle.
I do this type of shooting all the time. I cast from the Colt molds and fire the various size elongateds from a l l the Colt percussions (Authentic Blackpowder Series). Target is a 1'' layered pine board type, 12, 25, 35, 50, 75 and 100 yds, or a 2'' fir board. The elongateds outperform the round balls in accuracy and penetration. The last shoot I did was with the 49 Pocket 4''. The Heavy elongated of 78g w/11g FFFg BP went through a 2'' fir board at 50yds. The round balls w/16g didn t. At the longer distances, the elongateds out penetrate the round balls.
Nice group. Key holed one!
Now, ironically the opposite is true for a smooth bore weapon. Because of the lack of rifling the projectile from a smooth bore will tumble based on a number of factors not least of which is wind resistance and aerodynamics. Now an elongated or conical bullet will “grab the wind” or be met with a constantly chaotic amount of wind resistance as it travels making the bullet far less accurate when compared to the round ball which has pretty much identical air resistance throughout its flight due to its spherical shape. This means less tumbling for a spherical bullet and therefore greater accuracy. It is comparable to a football being thrown without a spiral to it and then throwing a baseball. The baseball will be far more accurate in a tumble.
Great points!
Guns Of The West thanks!
adventure outdoors near me in atlanta have 3 or 4 walkers in their cabinets. priced somewhere in the 300 range. may get me one for christmas or thanksgiving.
Did you get a Walker? I have a Remington and thinking of getting the Walker.
Excellent short video (many from others are overly long for no good reason). My experience with Lee conicals versus rb in my Pietta .44 Remington is the opposite. Time to try again perhaps. Did you clean out the barrel before shooting the conicals?
I did clean the bore between shot groups. Thanks for watching!
great vid Dustin ! really surprising how well the round ball shot !!!
Me too! Thanks for watching!
Great shooting! I just found it odd there was not one stuck caps at the first test but with the bullets.
Well the reason for both types existing historically is that Conicals are easier to load paper cartridges for and round balls are easier to load loose balls into cylinder.
Heavy bullets hit higher from a handgun. The recoil lifts the muzzle more before it exits.
That was interesting. Excellent comparison.
Thanks!
Please do a 1851 revolver fanning video
It’s actually not good for the gun if it hasn’t been modified for fanning and mine hasn’t.
Conicals carry more energy to target, most guns shoot them a tad lower than the more common round ball.
Excellent video, thanks.
Great video dustin! Great shooting!
Have a great weekend and happy thanksgiving
Which is more accurate at maximum distance ball or Conical?
My thinking is that the ball will lose velocity and drop to the ground but otherwise remain on a strait trajectory, while the conical rounds will begin to tumble as they lose velocity making them more susceptible to lateral drift before hitting the ground.
I suspect that different Walkers, 1851s, 1860's etc., will behave differently: some would like round balls better, some conicals. Just idiosyncratic black powder guns, as usual. That's what makes them fun to work with.
What would happen with a .44 conical hitting Kevlar
Gives even modern handguns a run for their money.
Impressive, Dustin. At 50 feet I could live with either of those groups. You're one of my go-to guys since last month when i scratched my itch and got a Pietta '58 Remington. Still find it odd that a "44" pistol shoots a bigger diameter bullet than a .45. Was this because the grooves were cut deeper to compensate for black powder fouling? Oh, and happy Thanksgiving!
Happy Thanksgiving to you too! I think the cuts of the rifling have little to do with fouling and just more to do with a company’s technique. I, too, have always found it interesting that my .45 Colt takes .452 and the Waker takes a .454. Thanks for watching!
In BP, rifle shooters use a patch to grip the rifling. Revolver rifling just cuts directly into the lead. It probably has to do with patches not being able to jump the cylinder gap without interfering with accuracy.
I was waiting for you to incorporate your new chronograph into the video somehow. Just kidding. LOL Another informative and good video.
I had a guy later ask me to chronograph the conicals. LOL!
A nine and a half inch rifled bore at 50 feet, from a rested position, accuracy 'not bad'? Better be!
Dustin, I noticed you seemed to have more cap problems with the conicals. Do you think that was just a 'fluke' or is it maybe the conicals produce more pressure due to a tighter seal and are blowing the caps off?
Hard to say. It may be worth doing another video, just to experiment with that. Thanks for watching!
I wonder if the Nail Polish trick for weatherproofing caps would help 'glue' them on?
But that would be a pain to deal with at the range
@@rwbimbie5854 I have two black powder revolvers, but I am still new to the game. What tips do you guys have for keeping caps on the nipples? Squeeze them? Nail polish? Anything else? Thanks.
I always squeezed mine and neve had any problem. @@TheDesertwalker
@@TheDesertwalker another one is beeswax around the bottom of the cap. My dad used to use this trick when we would shoot my grandpa's Hawkins .54 damascus. And he had a story about how his dad had shown him, and his dad had shown him, and his dad was in the civil war and had learned this trick from hunting as a young man for squirrels during rainstorms. I have no children to pass on the knowledge to, so I thought it might have value here...
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For coverage! -
:-)
Not sure why the 'conical shape' of the projectiles would result in greater accuracy. Length or the exact projectile diameter may have more to do with it.
More lead to engage the rifling.
Excellent presentation, and a quick question if I may ask... I recently purchased a new, fresh out of the box Colt Walker replica and can't seem to remove the barrel for my pre-shoot preparations. Any suggestions? Thanks again Dustin.
Did you already remove the wedge? If so, and the barrel is still stuck, you can pull the hammer to half-cock and use the loading lever to push the barrel off the frame. (The plunger will push off against the cylinder.) Hope this helps. Thanks for watching!
Thanks for the quick response Dustin, I had managed to remove the pin, but the base pins that rest inside the barrel profile were extremely tight. I went ahead and did a test fire today, attempting to loosen them up. It worked but now after cleaning the weapon, I find it difficult to squeeze them back into position. I'm a little nervous about hammering or filing so I might need a little help lol. Thanks again for the reply, I value the advice and will use it.
Hey good news, finally did some more tinkering with it and she is ready for the range. Thanks again Dustin, these videos are awesome by the way.
You ever try swaged (like hornady) round balls, vs cast round balls? is there really much of a difference?
I use both and I don’t really see much difference.
Very interesting video Dustin. Were you using real black powder or a substitute?
This was Goex real black powder.
Good comparison so you can shoot either the conical or the round ball in the same pistol? Could you do the same thing in a Colt 36 caliber? Forgive my ignorance brand new to Black powder!
Yes, both work in the same pistol. I have videos of both round balls and conical sun .44 and .36 caliber.
I had a Ruger Old Army. Round balls were .475. I bent the loading ram arm by trying .475 conical. Had to use .454 conicals.
Did you use the same size round ball and conical, and what size what size was it?
Thanks.
How about a vid trying some small 45acp slugs?
The 155-180 leads might be short enough to fit well and stabilize with the black powder rifling twist. I doubt regular or heavy slugs will stabilize well.
Those short light 45acp slugs might do pretty good loaded backwards as severely boattailed Full Wadcutter face, on close paper targets
Loading conicals backwards DRASTICALLY increases pressure and accounted for the self-destruction of many of the original Walkers. It's definitely not a good idea.
@@rwbimbie5854 there are several problems with your reply, and it shocks me that an obviously skilled shooter like yourself would advocate such behaviors on here.
1 It's nearly impossible to overcharge with black powder. Unburned, unused powder merely blows out the end of the barrel if too much is put in.
2 "when seated too shallow" You argue against yourself twice on this issue. You speak of back cons increasing chamber capacity and you speak of seating too shallow. Then you speak of overcharging and seating too shallow. Back cons themselves increase chamber capacity and seating them too shallow also increases capacity. This might encourage a user to overcharge, but as discussed above, overcharging with black powder is seldom a problem, and can't be within the confines of a revolver cylinder chamber, especially if, as you note later on, the user is careful to "tamp powder."
3 "ill trained/ill informed users" We have zero control over who watches these videos or reads our comments. We must assume that ill trained and ill informed users are present.
4 Even if there were semi scientific evidence to disprove it, I would still have difficulty believing that forcing a wedge into an opening backwards doesn't take more force than forcing it in the proper way. I appreciated your comments on here but I'm quite uncomfortable with the uncontrolled audience reading it without deeper explanation or warning against the hazards. Have a wonderful day and safe shooting experiences.
@@michaelpriest6242 Many original Walkers were damaged by soldiers loading conicals backwards into the chambers. The problem was probably that there was some air-space between the powder and the sides of the conicals.
This would blow up even a strong gun.
Conicals do work well in revolvers but they need two things that are different from modern bullets that one might buy at a store.
First modern bullets must be of a hard alloy to work in modern guns.
To seat in the chambers of black powder revolvers our conical must be soft enough to swage into the chambers with the loading ram.
So pure lead is what works for us.
Second our conicals must have a reduced shank to get them started into the chambers. Most modern bullets have flat or nearly flat bases.
What could possibly work is to cast a modern gas check bullet design out of pure lead.
It would take some experimentation
And possibly sizing the bullets down a bit to make them seat with reasonable effort.
It also might require modification of the loading port on the revolver.
Worth the trouble? Maybe.
What was the weight of the balls vs the conical ?. And I must say I was impressed with the conicals accuracy, good vid, thx.
Nice thing about round balls is you'll get a consistent weight, as there's only one formula to calculate volume, density and therefore weight.
A .454 round ball will put you in the neighborhood of 140 grains. Conicals will vary from design to design, but all .45s weigh well over 200 grains.
Is moose milk ok for a modern semi auto? With the water I’m concerned it should be ok because it’s ok for black powder guns right?
Cool video man. Thanks. Like the hat.
im not a big gun guy but it looks like the recoil is way more intense with the older weapons than the new ones
It just depends on the gun and the load. This is the Colt Walker, which is far more powerful than most other guns of that time period, so it recoils a bit. Thanks for watching!
Most of the black powder revolvers are fairly weak and fairly heavy, so felt recoil is not a problem.
Also, many shooters take advantage of Muzzle Flip recoil, as it facilitates thumbing the hammer back for next shot. On Target, the hammer is quite bothersome to reach for, but with the gun flipped up the hammer is far easier to get.
Besides black powder has a completely different felt recoil impulse. It feels like a push instead of a snap. From a couple feet away you can even hear the difference.
On mime I usually use 40 gr of black and my brothers love to shoot it..For fun though on someone new I load 5 of them with 40 and the last with 60.. They laugh saying it's not THAT bad until they get to the last shot..
The connicals bullets almost have a boat tail.
🙏
Hmmmmmmmmm, Very Interesting. Whodda thunk it?
Do they make Minie balls for this application? Would that work?
This is a good video, I am still puzzled why it says in my 1851 CVA instructions that round balls will be more accurate in the pistol because it says that the conical bullets will get canted during seating and enter the breach at an angle. Your video has obviously proven that false. Maybe you can do a video elaborating on that? Is there a certain technique you use to make sure the conical bullets seat straight?
It's a special bullet made from a specific bullet mould
Links to mold pls? Hard to find good molds online.
What is the twist rate in that gun?
If I remember right, it’s about 1:18.
What are the diameter of the conical and what powder charge are using ?
Thanks
40 grains for both. The J&D conical has a driving band of .46 caliber
where can I find .31 Conicals tho
Cast your own
I know that generally you would use a 454 or 457 round ball in a 44. What size conical are you using? Are you still shaving that ring of lead when loading?
A lot of conical designs are .457 at their widest, all to ensure a good seat when pressing them into the chamber.
@@BogeyTheBear Thanks
So you must aim to the balls to get a headshot with the conical bullet
Are you in the SLC area?
Is that a real Colt, or is it a clone?
It’s a reproduction from Uberti.
Colt doesn't make these anymore.
Hey there Dustin I would like to get in contact with you for a few questions to help me get started with my BP experience so I don't make any mistakes. It appears that I am unable to send you a private message over CZcams. How do I get in contact with you?
WineGGAR
Dustin, you need to play Red Dead Redemption 2
What range is that?
It’s called the Lee Kay Center for Hunter Education. It’s in West Valley City, Utah.
@@GunsOfTheWest Thanks!
Have you used copper in a cap and ball?