Good info, I’ve been shooting both 451 and 454 and haven’t noticed much difference in accuracy but I do like the confidence in knowing the .454 will seal better, I’ve done both wads and lube over the ball, I’ve ran both 25 and 30 grain charges, thanks for taking the time to put this video together for us viewers O.R. 👍
@@Hellbender21 Not all that common. It would be interesting statistics to know the percentage of revolver shooters that have one. Using a correctly sized ball, and either lube or wad, and proper fitting caps, chances would be very, very, close to zero. My brother had one 30 years ago. Never knew why. I recently had two, probably the result of some DIY caps I had made. Otherwise, I have fired thousands without one. As far as gun damage, neither mine or my brother’s damaged the firearms. The chamber that fired was the left where the ball probably glanced off the barrel wedge. Without the barrel, the speed is about half, reducing energy to one quarter, so this may be part of the reason for little damage. Of more concern would be the shooter, or bystanders, as the cost to replace the gun is usually not a big deal. Always use eye protection. Hopefully this is helpful. O.R.
I use. 451 and always use a lubed wad under the ball and grease on top of the ball. I supposed that's ultra careful but it shoots well. Thanks for your very informative videos, always a pleasure.
Thank you Old Ranger for doing these videos, they are excellent. One day I'll find some caps and be able to shoot my 1851 Navy... I guess I'm living vicariously through you till then. Well done!
Your welcome. I hope to be getting back now after a long and difficult winter. Lots of pent-up urges to shoot. Will do my best to give you something interesting to watch. O.R.
I make #10 &11 from a kit now I even figured out Musket caps! from disposable foil cooking pans with the kit's compound. I was "Cheap" now I'm "GREEN?" Keep chasing the Dragon!
This is why I ALWAYS load the largest roundball that will swage down. The listed measurement VARIES and it’s better to overestimate than to underestimate. I’ll go as far as hammering a ball in with a brass hammer to force a fit. It guarantees no chainfire is possible, gives a larger driving band for the rifling, gives it a flat top for harder punch, and I believe it gives a better seal, which builds more pressure for better ballistics. Also, with as light a projectile as roundball, every additional grain gives additional ballistic impact (which matters, since these guns are ballistically marginal at best loaded with roundball). Even 3 extra grains of lead can give an extra 10 foot pounds on target per shot.
@@Hellbender21 I’ve shot .454 with good results, but .457 would work better. I recommend loading the cylinder on a stand to not wear the gun’s loading lever.
With all that swaging & shape shifting of the ball it's a miracle these old cap & balls shoot so well. The ball is just getting battered around until it doesn't resemble a ball anymore. Thanks for anothe great video!
We dont have much bearing surface with our round balls so we don't need much lube. It doesn't take much lube to fill the tiny scraches on the ball where fire could get through either. If you seat a ball without lube or powder and take out the nipple then use a small diameter dowel to push the ball back out then look at the bearing surface on the ball with a magnifying glass you will see the tiny scratches on the sides of the ball. Of course this may vary a bit from gun to gun depending on the quality of the machining. Filling those scraches is where the value of lube pays off. I know you are going to think I am crazy until you see for yourself. Thanks for all you do. John Davis Jax Fl
Just wonder what you think about the ball bumping up to fill the groves? Every time I pound in a ball through the forcing cone I can always see light passing through. A ball fired with only the cylinder already has 3-400 FPS. If the majority of the force is already spent, what is left to enlarge the ball? Also, the lube is on the opposite side of the pressure and I would have time stopping a leak with a gasket on the wrong side. Outside of possibly preventing chain fires, I’ve been under the assumption that the lube is necessary to keep fouling soft and cut down on fouling buildup which seems not good for accuracy in most, maybe all firearms. Just my thoughts and open to viable explanations. Thanks again for your comments. O. R.
The chamber bore of the cylinder sizes the bullet. You can use a .500 bullet if you have the elbow strength and you'll wind up with a bullet the same size as a .451.
Lube is important for more reasons than one. The viscosity of your mixture seems to be doing very well. Some commercial products turn a slimy puddle after the first shot in the rest of the chambers.
Temp was in the low 70's I believe when this shooting was done. Crank that up another 25 like the last couple days here, and things could be a lot different I'm guessing. I was actually pretty impressed with how nothing changed much, but the temp probably helped. Like of course to think it was a lucky mixture, time will tell. O.R.
@@oldranger3044 yes hope you have it documented. Me I stick lambs tallow and beeswax and change portions based on how intend to use it. More bees wax for dipping bullets less for over top . Paraffin wax for dipping on occasion. A lot of people doesn't know that army ordinance for the paper cartridges for these revolvers called for bullets dipped in paraffin. I did get out Monday to the range and test fired the 62 gr in the Remington, and the 77 gr in the 1849. All I learned is that my vision impairment is not better for open sights, but did better falling back on basic instincts. I also know both weights are flying true with no tumbling. I took out a couple of carbine I tried a month ago open sighted and failed, and mounted optics on. Has some success. Also want a trusted scoped 22. Though not the bullet touching accuracy I'm use to I was able to keep groups at 3/4" @ 25 yards. So still in the game just have to change my methods. It's going to look funny mounting optics on remingtons but if it keeps me going great. I will try it on my 1866 carbine first see how it goes
Excellent shooting ! As always, the reason I always choose a larger than bore size is to stop any risk of chainfire, as I know you do, but as I end up reaming the chambers to .002" over groove diameter the projectile diameter can vary, I have now found an excellent source of ball moulds which are both cheap, good quality, and available in .001" increments to order, so I am now shooting the diameter I want rather than buying a near fit, both of your groups were outstanding, and that is not using your Ransom rest! You had no critters in the garden this time. Stay safe! Chris B.
I put my powder in, then a 45 cutout of a disc of beeswax,bore butter, and Chrisco melted then cooled before cutting. Hen a ball. This is how combat guns were loaded. Never grease on the outside. They used tallow or lard.
Good shooting...as always! I follow your channel and am always eager when I get notification of a new video. Btw,...did you end up buying that Pietta 1851 brass frame from your brother?
Better than that. He decided not to take them back home (1300 miles), and left me in charge of the 4 guns, as he rode off into the sunset. And, as he doesn't shoot much black powder, I think he meant for me to keep them. Thats my bit. Thanks Tom. O.R.
Re looking at this video I notice that there is a generous chamfer on the chamber mouth, I wonder if there is a different fit on the ball compared to an unchamfered chamber, the chamfer would tend to "squeeze" the ball into the chamber rather than the shear the ball, this must make it a tighter fit, one thing that does happen when the chambers are reamed is that it reduces the size of the chamfer, but this can easily be re cut, I think most chambers are slightly tapered, so that also would give a tighter fit , I notice that with the .451" ball if the sprue were to enter the chamber at the side a flame path could easily set off the chamber, and that could be the reason some people experience chainfires, as I always seat sprue upwards this risk is reduced. Chris B.
Hi Chris. Here’s my experience so far, meaning it is just what has, or has not happened, and not concluding anything to be a law. Only one law..Just when I am about to regard something as absolute, I come across something else that goes against it. I will sometimes load with sprue up, mostly because I have felt it more accurate. My testing so far does not verify that. Last few years I have probably fired over 1K/year at paper. Most off a rest. Only saying that because we know some shooters will have a good day for whatever reason, and figure what they did can be taken to the bank...same if it was a bad day. So, its just my opinions from what I’ve seen so far. If I am running a test on shooting without wads or lube, it’s load them tits up for sure. Over 4K without a chain fire. Always gave credit for chain fire to the chamber end. Then when shooting DIY caps that had powder trails up the sides (sloppy manufacturing on my part), two CF in one week. Before that I had tested firing with no cap and did get the CF. So here’s the new theory. Maybe to get the CF nipple end, the flash can’t (for whatever reason) get through to the powder, and needs the cap in place because it can set off the cap. I always enjoy your comments (and others) because they get me thinking..thanks again. O.R.
@@oldranger3044 Well OR, you have just touched on something I had not considered, we really should live closer! And that is the cap being ignited by the flashback,a thing which is probably more likely with homemade caps I had always thought it was flame going into the back of the cylinder to ignite, I have never thought of CF being from the front, given normal safe loading procedures, but I have seen it happen that way on an Adams patent pistol, but the balls are just pushed in by hand, and are very "gappy", for any flame to get in at the front there would need to be a good size gap, the sort of gap you would get by loading a marginal size ball in with the sprue at the side, but anyone that would do that would be a very casual shooter, today we have many ball moulds available, but not everyone checks size, they say,"this is a 44 caliber, this is a 44 ball mould" and just push them in, I have seen it so many times on youtube demonstrations where the balls go in without any effort at all, no wonder people get chainfires, I remember the video you mae that demonstrated just how much pressure is going on when firing, all the lube on the next chamber was completely blown away, it does not happen as much with a tight barrel /chamber gap, but with a good sheared ring of lead I do not think ignition will occur. I ream my cylinders with a slight taper, and will now put a very slight taper on to chamfer them. Stay warm and safe! Chris B. Not sure what is happening at youtube? It has changed my title to some gobbeldegook collection of numbers/letters?
@@453421abcdefg12345 Hi Chris. Getting our first larger snow today. Thinking about working more on my script for a video on the gun in the Cody museum that is claimed to have belonged to Hickok. It might spark some discussion if nothing else. Been on my honey doo list for a couple years. Strange about your new random computer generated handle. Worse than having to memorize a combination lock combination for the Py Ed gym locker. I think working together we’d get close at least to this CF thing. There is testing that I feel could be done to create it on a predictable set of conditions, but it would take time and dedication. Also motivation and a companion. I have some of the first, but not as much of the second since my brother left the range. Keep safe and in good health. O.R.
Thanks Finn. I was happy I made it through the winter, and this shooting was really my first for this year. Appears that the gun also made it, and my BlackMZ kept well enough, and isn't in one solid chunk. O.R.
Here in Northern Arizona a couple of years ago we got a really cold Winter and the .451 balls were sticking to the lube on my rammer and pulling back out. I switched to .454 balls and the problem went away. Now I have Lee molds in both sizes .
Interesting. Be interested in what shooting iron, and how the lube gets on the loading lever? Another factor could be that lead contracts in size a little over twice as much as steel with temperature drop. But this is a small change. Something caused the issue for sure. Have you measured the.451’s? I have two Lee .451 moulds. One does what it should, .451. The other (both are stamped.451) casts .456-.457. O.R.
I prefer the .454 ball myself. Better sealing and seems more accurate out of my 1860 Army. I also love the Black MZ powder. It’s too bad they quit making though. I use Crisco and fill the space all the way to the top and then smooth it out so it’s perfectly flat with the edge of the bores.
Powder, ball, crisco? You don't use the patches? I have plenty of lard. That's the same idea though right? Lube and to seal them up to prevent chain fires?
I gave up on tight measurements on soft lead "Round Balls" as they all look dinged up pretty well after bouncing around loose in the box together even my swaged balls. I just have to have Faith in my Lube topped with wads while I watch for the tattle tale RINGS. DO NOT want a first chain fire? NICE GROUPS EVERY TIME! I can't do that with any Modern Pistol. Thanks AGIAN.
It seems to me that the .454 would take on a slightly more capsular shape going down the barrel, and thus would be more stable and have slightly higher sectional density, improving accuracy and downrange energy retention by a small margin.
I would say that if you loaded some balls, especially the .451's with the side loaded sprues in the chambers would more affect the engagement of the rifling.
Will put on my list, however there are probably lots of folks more qualified. Still, suppose doesn't hurt to do something on what I feel is important. Thanks for the suggestion. O.R.
@@oldranger3044 I’m a ole country boy from Indiana and love to hunt rabbits in the winter with a Black powder pistol and I miss a lot get lucky every now and then. It’s just hard to judge distance and I eat every one I harvest. Looking forward to another video
No doubt, (unless it’s under chamber size of course). But a larger diameter will have a wider band to react with the bore riflings, and may be more deformed. These are soft lead and extra force needed to seat can cause this to happen. A tighter fit from the larger ball might also cause pressure differences at the beginning of the burn. Because of these, and possibly others, there could be some shooting differences. Thanks for pointing this out. O.R.
If the bore is.451, but the chambers swage the ball down to .446, how can that result in maximum accuracy because now the ball is smaller than the bore? I opened all my Pietta 1858 chambers to .4525 and I'm using .457 round balls like a Ruger Old Army. Very accurate.
Hi Roy. You’re right, but the bore is .440, probably why it is referred to as a 44 caliber. Both round balls will end up as.446, and have enough left to engage the rifling. The.454 will shave more lead, and have a longer bearing surface for the rifling to act on. Hope this answers your question. O.R.
@@jason60chev with the Pietta 44 there’s a .446 ball entering a .440 bore, leaving only .003 inches in the groves. A.448 ball pounded into the barrel through the forcing cone end will show lightning around it through the groves. It of course is then not getting bumped up by gas pressure of the gun firing. My question is do you have evidence that it does get bumped up?? Or, are you in my situation of only hearing or reading that it does. I’m not saying it doesn’t, but I would sure welcome some hard evidence to verify it. I certainly appreciate the opportunity to bring about a discussion on this.. Thanks so much for your comments. O.R.
@@oldranger3044 If the bullet is .446 inside the chamber and the grooves are .451, it would help to know how well or how deeply the fired bullet is engaging the grooves......czcams.com/video/6qBWWR4bOj0/video.html
Right. The only difference I can be sure of is that the 454 is a little more difficult to push into the chambers. One day the shooter might think that one was more accurate but if shooting the next day, it might be the opposite. O. R.
with a 454 ball and your chambers you would have a longer 'flat' which obviously would give more area for the rifling to engage. Does it matter? logic says yes but....
Not exactly. That would be sloppy as you say, but the barrel is bored.440 and then has groves (rifling) put in, so there remains a portion that is still .440 called lands. So the barrel is is not.451. The.451 is the size of the ball that is squeezed into the.446 cylinder chamber and then becomes.446. The .446 ball then goes into the.440 barrel, so there is a tight fit. Hope this explains what happens. O.R.
Well thought out and interesting to watch experiment. Thank you for you efforts! It does seem if your not loading to maximum capacity of the chamber that the lube is retained around the ball. My home made beeswax base lube seems to disappear when the proceeding chamber fires. Im wondering if this is because I tend to load with the ball closer to the chamber mouth or whether its due to the lube itself. Great groups IMO :-) seems like the three tho is neither here nor there it terms of accuracy in that pistol.
That's interesting about your lube. If I remember, I will load to the max with the lube and see if there remains any around the ball. I have been of the same opinion about the 3 thousands. But, (you know, there's always but), couple days ago I was testing some DIY powder and was getting some shots in the 900 plus range. I noticed a couple shots that were either flyers, or I am going to seed. One was 4 inches low, and I hadn't called it. The higher speed will need to have more "grip", in order to give the ball the added rotational inertia. Sorta like your tires better grip the road real well around that corner when doing 80. Possibly, only a theory at this point, a 454 might not have done the slip the riflings thing, it that's what I suspect happened. Since I'm not developing hunting, or self defense loads, I normally don't go much above 800, so haven't seen this before. Guess it's the "live and learn" principle. O.R.
@@oldranger3044 Really Interesting! and your theory sounds plausible to me. Would be very interested to hear more about your DIY powder......My ears picked up when you mentioned the rock tumbler :-)
After casting, or purchasing the size desired, only measure a couple if wanted as a double check. Or if like me, sometimes you may have forgotten to label the container. Even if the 451 and 454 get mixed up it will work out as long as it shaves some lead, or makes a decent tight seal. Some cylinders have a slight chamfering and won’t actually cut off a lead ring, only compress it. O.R.
A few years back I needed new glasses, and mentioned to the Dr that I do some pistol. Can see targets fine, but sights are just a blur. He had the right lens ground for a focal distance that will focus in the sights, and the left is normal correction. They take a bit getting used to, and I don't use them except for shooting. Sometimes when shooting I will have to stop, set the gun down, and go get the glasses. They help. Hope this helps. O.R.
@@jeffshootsstuff I've been noticing lately that I actually forget to go back to my regular ones after shooting, and I think that my eyes or brain or whatever, has figured out how to deal with it. My brother has contacts, and one is set for close, and it works for him. But then, other things work for him that are beyond my ability to figure out. O.R.
I just learned about this and see only about round ball but what about conical bullets are they like round ball or is there a difference. Because I want to make my own . And I have this exact revolver
If you are new to the bullet casting area, I might suggest to start with the round ball. Conicals are more fussy (I find) ), Depends a lot on the purpose. Target shooting, plinking, or overall just fun, I’d stick with round. Stuff like hunting or self defense is different, and the conical is probably better suited. Size matters maybe even more with conicals, because they may not fit under the loading area of your gun depending on the particular conical. Also, most have a difficulty starting in the chambers if oversized, and being under sized doesn’t work out well. Hopefully this helps. O.R.
@@oldranger3044 I am interested in casting my own and I am a hunter this does help me greatly I just got my hands on a mold for conical and I have store bought round ball and then realized a size difference then started to try to figure it out and run across you again thanks for the information. And so you know I just subscribed to your channel
@@oldranger3044 you are welcome and the mold I got is Hornady .454 conical if I remember the size right and the round ball is .451 I think you see my puzzlement as a person trying to get into casting my own just thought of something do you have a video or videos for someone like me that wants to start casting
@@robertlamb7513 No, I’ve been casting since the 60’s. Have had some requests for a video, but haven’t done any. One reason is because there’s a lot already on CZcams. As you subscribed, if I do one you will probably get a notice. Thanks for the encouragement about making one for those who are interested in starting. O.R.
Yes, and thanks. Most all my bench shooting is done from 21 Yes because that is how my backstop and shooting shed are set. I have a portable backstop that I can move to 25, and also a permanent one at 50. Thanks for asking. O.R.
Yes. They all appear to have groves cut, or impressed in. I have not been able to tell if they have increased diameter due to a “bump up “ , because of their damage. O.R.
Believe that is a tag that reminds me of how the gun shoots with a specific load, and how completely it was last cleaned and when. Good question and shows that you are paying attention to detail. Police or military training? O.R.
@@oldranger3044 no I'm not police or any other government agency I just thought it was strange to see what look ed like a old time price tag on the gun you were shooting.
@@oldranger3044 by the way I think your videos are quite good. I shoot 1858s also. The piettas make the cylinder Chambers too small for the bore, and the ones i have are .008-.009 smaller than the barrel groove. 2 uberti i have .449 - .450 cylinder chamber are more in line with the bore size, but still to small for the bore. I wish someone would make the cylinder a 5 shot .451 chamber and the barrel groove .450 and 1 in 16 twist so that standard 45 acp lead bullets would work in the percussion cylinder. A lead 45 acp round nose flat point with a bevel base would make shooting a percussion revolver more effective, more accurate, and most of all, simplify loading. That Would still work fine with .454 .457 round balls.
@@Mike-xi4zt Thanks for your response and ideas. What I would like to know is a couple things. One would be how originals handled this. I assume that the manufacturer of current percussion guns had access to originals and measuring devices. So, is what is being produced now typical?? The second is does the projectile bump-up to fill the groves? I have always had doubts about it. O. R.
@@Mike-xi4zt Yes on both. They are the old style price tags, and its not something you will see often, if at all. Problem I have (if a problem) is I have too many for my short term memory to deal with. O.R.
Harbor freight mini grease gun. I ended up emptying out the cartridge that came with it. Used that as a liner. Put a grease fitting in the end because then I fit a 3/16 th tube on it that goes into the chambers. I keep using it, so it appears to be doing the job. O.R.
Staggered. Figured that would be more equal. Suppose we fired the first 6 with a clean cylinder and barrel. The next ones, say the, .454 would be with fouled chambers and barrel, which can affect things. That’s why I chose to alternate. Switching guns would be right out as that would introduce even more variables. Also the fatigue of the shooter and gun placement is less affected, along with lighting (clouds changing lighting on the sights), and wind gusts. . O.R.
Good info, I’ve been shooting both 451 and 454 and haven’t noticed much difference in accuracy but I do like the confidence in knowing the .454 will seal better, I’ve done both wads and lube over the ball, I’ve ran both 25 and 30 grain charges, thanks for taking the time to put this video together for us viewers O.R. 👍
Appreciate your comments. If you ever chain fire with that combo it would sure be evidence for it coming from the nipple end. O.R.
@@oldranger3044how common are chain fires? Does it damage the gun when it happens?
@@Hellbender21 Not all that common. It would be interesting statistics to know the percentage of revolver shooters that have one. Using a correctly sized ball, and either lube or wad, and proper fitting caps, chances would be very, very, close to zero. My brother had one 30 years ago. Never knew why. I recently had two, probably the result of some DIY caps I had made. Otherwise, I have fired thousands without one. As far as gun damage, neither mine or my brother’s damaged the firearms. The chamber that fired was the left where the ball probably glanced off the barrel wedge. Without the barrel, the speed is about half, reducing energy to one quarter, so this may be part of the reason for little damage. Of more concern would be the shooter, or bystanders, as the cost to replace the gun is usually not a big deal. Always use eye protection. Hopefully this is helpful. O.R.
@@oldranger3044 Thanks, I appreciate these videos.
@@Hellbender21I have shot a couple hundred rounds out of my BPR and have never had a chain fire. I use lubricated wads
I use. 451 and always use a lubed wad under the ball and grease on top of the ball. I supposed that's ultra careful but it shoots well.
Thanks for your very informative videos, always a pleasure.
Thank you Old Ranger for doing these videos, they are excellent. One day I'll find some caps and be able to shoot my 1851 Navy... I guess I'm living vicariously through you till then. Well done!
Your welcome. I hope to be getting back now after a long and difficult winter. Lots of pent-up urges to shoot. Will do my best to give you something interesting to watch. O.R.
I make #10 &11 from a kit now I even figured out Musket caps! from disposable foil cooking pans with the kit's compound. I was "Cheap" now I'm "GREEN?"
Keep chasing the Dragon!
This is why I ALWAYS load the largest roundball that will swage down. The listed measurement VARIES and it’s better to overestimate than to underestimate. I’ll go as far as hammering a ball in with a brass hammer to force a fit. It guarantees no chainfire is possible, gives a larger driving band for the rifling, gives it a flat top for harder punch, and I believe it gives a better seal, which builds more pressure for better ballistics. Also, with as light a projectile as roundball, every additional grain gives additional ballistic impact (which matters, since these guns are ballistically marginal at best loaded with roundball). Even 3 extra grains of lead can give an extra 10 foot pounds on target per shot.
Interesting information for shooters to consider. Thanks. O.R.
Bigger than 454?
@@Hellbender21 I’ve shot .454 with good results, but .457 would work better. I recommend loading the cylinder on a stand to not wear the gun’s loading lever.
With all that swaging & shape shifting of the ball it's a miracle these old cap & balls shoot so well. The ball is just getting battered around until it doesn't resemble a ball anymore. Thanks for anothe great video!
My thoughts exactly. Add to that the reasonable prices. Seriously, I can’t figure that one out either. O.R.
We dont have much bearing surface with our round balls so we don't need much lube. It doesn't take much lube to fill the tiny scraches on the ball where fire could get through either.
If you seat a ball without lube or powder and take out the nipple then use a small diameter dowel to push the ball back out then look at the bearing surface on the ball with a magnifying glass you will see the tiny scratches on the sides of the ball.
Of course this may vary a bit from gun to gun depending on the quality of the machining. Filling those scraches is where the value of lube pays off.
I know you are going to think I am crazy until you see for yourself.
Thanks for all you do.
John Davis Jax Fl
Just wonder what you think about the ball bumping up to fill the groves? Every time I pound in a ball through the forcing cone I can always see light passing through. A ball fired with only the cylinder already has 3-400 FPS. If the majority of the force is already spent, what is left to enlarge the ball? Also, the lube is on the opposite side of the pressure and I would have time stopping a leak with a gasket on the wrong side. Outside of possibly preventing chain fires, I’ve been under the assumption that the lube is necessary to keep fouling soft and cut down on fouling buildup which seems not good for accuracy in most, maybe all firearms. Just my thoughts and open to viable explanations. Thanks again for your comments. O. R.
The chamber bore of the cylinder sizes the bullet. You can use a .500 bullet if you have the elbow strength and you'll wind up with a bullet the same size as a .451.
Lube is important for more reasons than one. The viscosity of your mixture seems to be doing very well. Some commercial products turn a slimy puddle after the first shot in the rest of the chambers.
Temp was in the low 70's I believe when this shooting was done. Crank that up another 25 like the last couple days here, and things could be a lot different I'm guessing. I was actually pretty impressed with how nothing changed much, but the temp probably helped. Like of course to think it was a lucky mixture, time will tell. O.R.
@@oldranger3044 yes hope you have it documented. Me I stick lambs tallow and beeswax and change portions based on how intend to use it. More bees wax for dipping bullets less for over top . Paraffin wax for dipping on occasion. A lot of people doesn't know that army ordinance for the paper cartridges for these revolvers called for bullets dipped in paraffin. I did get out Monday to the range and test fired the 62 gr in the Remington, and the 77 gr in the 1849. All I learned is that my vision impairment is not better for open sights, but did better falling back on basic instincts. I also know both weights are flying true with no tumbling. I took out a couple of carbine I tried a month ago open sighted and failed, and mounted optics on. Has some success. Also want a trusted scoped 22. Though not the bullet touching accuracy I'm use to I was able to keep groups at 3/4" @ 25 yards. So still in the game just have to change my methods. It's going to look funny mounting optics on remingtons but if it keeps me going great. I will try it on my 1866 carbine first see how it goes
Another good shooting video Old Ranger. The name makes me think of the old western Death Valley Days with the Old Ranger.
Good thing there are reproductions of that, otherwise it pretty much dates those that remember or mention it. Great series however. O.R.
Old Ranger your videos are excellent!
Appreciate your compliment and your interest in this sport. 👍. O.R.
Excellent video! Funny you came up with this topic, as I've truly been pondering over the what ifs of these two sizes. Thumbs up video Sir!~zj
Excellent shooting ! As always, the reason I always choose a larger than bore size is to stop any risk of chainfire, as I know you do, but as I end up reaming the chambers to .002" over groove diameter the projectile diameter can vary, I have now found an excellent source of ball moulds which are both cheap, good quality, and available in .001" increments to order, so I am now shooting the diameter I want rather than buying a near fit, both of your groups were outstanding, and that is not using your Ransom rest! You had no critters in the garden this time. Stay safe! Chris B.
Thanks Chris. Suppose your source of RB is not in the U.S. That, and being able to ream gives some real possibilities. O.R.
it is possible that the .454 takes the grooves of the barrel better and therefore behaves better at longer ranges 🤔
Very nice gun, test, and shooting.
I have the 58 in the stainless version and Its always been an accurate sweetheart.
Thanks Jason. The Stainless is a good looking and shooting piece. O.R.
I put my powder in, then a 45 cutout of a disc of beeswax,bore butter, and Chrisco melted then cooled before cutting. Hen a ball. This is how combat guns were loaded. Never grease on the outside. They used tallow or lard.
Another great video, Thanks Bill
Thanks Randy, we should keep it touch. O.R.
Thank you Old Ranger
Good shooting...as always! I follow your channel and am always eager when I get notification of a new video. Btw,...did you end up buying that Pietta 1851 brass frame from your brother?
Better than that. He decided not to take them back home (1300 miles), and left me in charge of the 4 guns, as he rode off into the sunset. And, as he doesn't shoot much black powder, I think he meant for me to keep them. Thats my bit. Thanks Tom. O.R.
Re looking at this video I notice that there is a generous chamfer on the chamber mouth, I wonder if there is a different fit on the ball compared to an unchamfered chamber, the chamfer would tend to "squeeze" the ball into the chamber rather than the shear the ball, this must make it a tighter fit, one thing that does happen when the chambers are reamed is that it reduces the size of the chamfer, but this can easily be re cut, I think most chambers are slightly tapered, so that also would give a tighter fit , I notice that with the .451" ball if the sprue were to enter the chamber at the side a flame path could easily set off the chamber, and that could be the reason some people experience chainfires, as I always seat sprue upwards this risk is reduced. Chris B.
Hi Chris. Here’s my experience so far, meaning it is just what has, or has not happened, and not concluding anything to be a law. Only one law..Just when I am about to regard something as absolute, I come across something else that goes against it.
I will sometimes load with sprue up, mostly because I have felt it more accurate. My testing so far does not verify that. Last few years I have probably fired over 1K/year at paper. Most off a rest. Only saying that because we know some shooters will have a good day for whatever reason, and figure what they did can be taken to the bank...same if it was a bad day. So, its just my opinions from what I’ve seen so far. If I am running a test on shooting without wads or lube, it’s load them tits up for sure. Over 4K without a chain fire. Always gave credit for chain fire to the chamber end. Then when shooting DIY caps that had powder trails up the sides (sloppy manufacturing on my part), two CF in one week. Before that I had tested firing with no cap and did get the CF. So here’s the new theory. Maybe to get the CF nipple end, the flash can’t (for whatever reason) get through to the powder, and needs the cap in place because it can set off the cap.
I always enjoy your comments (and others) because they get me thinking..thanks again. O.R.
@@oldranger3044 Well OR, you have just touched on something I had not considered, we really should live closer! And that is the cap being ignited by the flashback,a thing which is probably more likely with homemade caps I had always thought it was flame going into the back of the cylinder to ignite, I have never thought of CF being from the front, given normal safe loading procedures, but I have seen it happen that way on an Adams patent pistol, but the balls are just pushed in by hand, and are very "gappy", for any flame to get in at the front there would need to be a good size gap, the sort of gap you would get by loading a marginal size ball in with the sprue at the side, but anyone that would do that would be a very casual shooter, today we have many ball moulds available, but not everyone checks size, they say,"this is a 44 caliber, this is a 44 ball mould" and just push them in, I have seen it so many times on youtube demonstrations where the balls go in without any effort at all, no wonder people get chainfires, I remember the video you mae that demonstrated just how much pressure is going on when firing, all the lube on the next chamber was completely blown away, it does not happen as much with a tight barrel /chamber gap, but with a good sheared ring of lead I do not think ignition will occur. I ream my cylinders with a slight taper, and will now put a very slight taper on to chamfer them. Stay warm and safe! Chris B. Not sure what is happening at youtube? It has changed my title to some gobbeldegook collection of numbers/letters?
@@453421abcdefg12345 Hi Chris. Getting our first larger snow today. Thinking about working more on my script for a video on the gun in the Cody museum that is claimed to have belonged to Hickok. It might spark some discussion if nothing else. Been on my honey doo list for a couple years.
Strange about your new random computer generated handle. Worse than having to memorize a combination lock combination for the Py Ed gym locker.
I think working together we’d get close at least to this CF thing. There is testing that I feel could be done to create it on a predictable set of conditions, but it would take time and dedication. Also motivation and a companion. I have some of the first, but not as much of the second since my brother left the range. Keep safe and in good health. O.R.
Thank you for posting this video very helpful
No cowboy shooter got nothing on you best shooting anyone could do 👍🏼
Thanks Finn. I was happy I made it through the winter, and this shooting was really my first for this year. Appears that the gun also made it, and my BlackMZ kept well enough, and isn't in one solid chunk. O.R.
Here in Northern Arizona a couple of years ago we got a really cold Winter and the .451 balls were sticking to the lube on my rammer and pulling back out. I switched to .454 balls and the problem went away. Now I have Lee molds in both sizes .
Interesting. Be interested in what shooting iron, and how the lube gets on the loading lever? Another factor could be that lead contracts in size a little over twice as much as steel with temperature drop. But this is a small change. Something caused the issue for sure. Have you measured the.451’s? I have two Lee .451 moulds. One does what it should, .451. The other (both are stamped.451) casts .456-.457. O.R.
Excellent video.
I prefer the .454 ball myself. Better sealing and seems more accurate out of my 1860 Army. I also love the Black MZ powder. It’s too bad they quit making though. I use Crisco and fill the space all the way to the top and then smooth it out so it’s perfectly flat with the edge of the bores.
Powder, ball, crisco? You don't use the patches? I have plenty of lard. That's the same idea though right? Lube and to seal them up to prevent chain fires?
That is correct. You don’t need a patch.
Where u stick it matters more, and what you use to leave a hole
I gave up on tight measurements on soft lead "Round Balls" as they all look dinged up pretty well after bouncing around loose in the box together even my swaged balls. I just have to have Faith in my Lube topped with wads while I watch for the tattle tale RINGS. DO NOT want a first chain fire?
NICE GROUPS EVERY TIME!
I can't do that with any Modern Pistol.
Thanks AGIAN.
Great info, thanks.
It seems to me that the .454 would take on a slightly more capsular shape going down the barrel, and thus would be more stable and have slightly higher sectional density, improving accuracy and downrange energy retention by a small margin.
Hi. Do you think that the increased distortion of the nose due to extra force from the loading lever on the soft lead would create a issue? O.R.
@@oldranger3044 I think might affect wind resistance, but the added weight / sectional density of the .454 might be enough to overcome that.
@@ericv7720 Results have been good, which tends to back that up. Thanks again for your comment. O.R.
I would say that if you loaded some balls, especially the .451's with the side loaded sprues in the chambers would more affect the engagement of the rifling.
Old ranger I would like you to do a video on sighting a pistol your method working on the back sight. Really like your videos thanks Bill
Will put on my list, however there are probably lots of folks more qualified. Still, suppose doesn't hurt to do something on what I feel is important. Thanks for the suggestion. O.R.
@@oldranger3044 I’m a ole country boy from Indiana and love to hunt rabbits in the winter with a Black powder pistol and I miss a lot get lucky every now and then. It’s just hard to judge distance and I eat every one I harvest. Looking forward to another video
Awesome that gun is a beast
When u seat the ball it's the same size as ur cylinder no matter what the ball size
No doubt, (unless it’s under chamber size of course). But a larger diameter will have a wider band to react with the bore riflings, and may be more deformed. These are soft lead and extra force needed to seat can cause this to happen. A tighter fit from the larger ball might also cause pressure differences at the beginning of the burn. Because of these, and possibly others, there could be some shooting differences. Thanks for pointing this out. O.R.
If the bore is.451, but the chambers swage the ball down to .446, how can that result in maximum accuracy because now the ball is smaller than the bore? I opened all my Pietta 1858 chambers to .4525 and I'm using .457 round balls like a Ruger Old Army. Very accurate.
Hi Roy. You’re right, but the bore is .440, probably why it is referred to as a 44 caliber. Both round balls will end up as.446, and have enough left to engage the rifling. The.454 will shave more lead, and have a longer bearing surface for the rifling to act on. Hope this answers your question. O.R.
Old ranger is correct. The lands measure .440 and the grooves measure .451
Also, the pressure behind thesoft lead as thebullet enters the forcing cone will "buck up" thebullet to help take the rifling.
@@jason60chev with the Pietta 44 there’s a .446 ball entering a .440 bore, leaving only .003 inches in the groves. A.448 ball pounded into the barrel through the forcing cone end will show lightning around it through the groves. It of course is then not getting bumped up by gas pressure of the gun firing. My question is do you have evidence that it does get bumped up?? Or, are you in my situation of only hearing or reading that it does. I’m not saying it doesn’t, but I would sure welcome some hard evidence to verify it.
I certainly appreciate the opportunity to bring about a discussion on this.. Thanks so much for your comments. O.R.
@@oldranger3044 If the bullet is .446 inside the chamber and the grooves are .451, it would help to know how well or how deeply the fired bullet is engaging the grooves......czcams.com/video/6qBWWR4bOj0/video.html
Well, They both look pretty close to me! I don't think there is much difference! Maybe at longer range you can tell better!
Right. The only difference I can be sure of is that the 454 is a little more difficult to push into the chambers. One day the shooter might think that one was more accurate but if shooting the next day, it might be the opposite. O. R.
with a 454 ball and your chambers you would have a longer 'flat' which obviously would give more area for the rifling to engage. Does it matter? logic says yes but....
Like all your videos 👍🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸💪 I have 18 51 and a 1858.36 and 44
Thanks Victor. Sounds like a good selection. Is your 51 in 36 or 44? Thanks for viewing, and hope you can find something useful. O.R.
The chambers are.446 but the barrel is 451????? Seems kinda sloppy
Not exactly. That would be sloppy as you say, but the barrel is bored.440 and then has groves (rifling) put in, so there remains a portion that is still .440 called lands. So the barrel is is not.451. The.451 is the size of the ball that is squeezed into the.446 cylinder chamber and then becomes.446. The .446 ball then goes into the.440 barrel, so there is a tight fit. Hope this explains what happens. O.R.
as the other shooters, i use 454, better accuracy. but for me, the best is lee 200grs bullet👍
Well thought out and interesting to watch experiment. Thank you for you efforts!
It does seem if your not loading to maximum capacity of the chamber that the lube is retained around the ball.
My home made beeswax base lube seems to disappear when the proceeding chamber fires. Im wondering if this is because I tend to load with the ball closer to the chamber mouth or whether its due to the lube itself.
Great groups IMO :-) seems like the three tho is neither here nor there it terms of accuracy in that pistol.
That's interesting about your lube. If I remember, I will load to the max with the lube and see if there remains any around the ball.
I have been of the same opinion about the 3 thousands. But, (you know, there's always but), couple days ago I was testing some DIY powder and was getting some shots in the 900 plus range. I noticed a couple shots that were either flyers, or I am going to seed. One was 4 inches low, and I hadn't called it. The higher speed will need to have more "grip", in order to give the ball the added rotational inertia. Sorta like your tires better grip the road real well around that corner when doing 80. Possibly, only a theory at this point, a 454 might not have done the slip the riflings thing, it that's what I suspect happened. Since I'm not developing hunting, or self defense loads, I normally don't go much above 800, so haven't seen this before. Guess it's the "live and learn" principle. O.R.
@@oldranger3044 Really Interesting! and your theory sounds plausible to me. Would be very interested to hear more about your DIY powder......My ears picked up when you mentioned the rock tumbler :-)
Do you have to measure all the balls before loading or is that just for the video?
After casting, or purchasing the size desired, only measure a couple if wanted as a double check. Or if like me, sometimes you may have forgotten to label the container. Even if the 451 and 454 get mixed up it will work out as long as it shaves some lead, or makes a decent tight seal. Some cylinders have a slight chamfering and won’t actually cut off a lead ring, only compress it. O.R.
What lube/grease are you using?
My own DIY mix. Have video on channel on it if you’re interested in checking it out. O.R.
Curious whether you wear corrective lenses. I can barely SEE 21 yards without my glasses and with them on I can’t see the sights clearly. Lol
A few years back I needed new glasses, and mentioned to the Dr that I do some pistol. Can see targets fine, but sights are just a blur. He had the right lens ground for a focal distance that will focus in the sights, and the left is normal correction. They take a bit getting used to, and I don't use them except for shooting. Sometimes when shooting I will have to stop, set the gun down, and go get the glasses. They help. Hope this helps. O.R.
@@oldranger3044 Thank you sir. That would drive me insane I think, but I might try it.
@@jeffshootsstuff I've been noticing lately that I actually forget to go back to my regular ones after shooting, and I think that my eyes or brain or whatever, has figured out how to deal with it. My brother has contacts, and one is set for close, and it works for him. But then, other things work for him that are beyond my ability to figure out. O.R.
I just learned about this and see only about round ball but what about conical bullets are they like round ball or is there a difference. Because I want to make my own . And I have this exact revolver
If you are new to the bullet casting area, I might suggest to start with the round ball. Conicals are more fussy (I find) ), Depends a lot on the purpose. Target shooting, plinking, or overall just fun, I’d stick with round. Stuff like hunting or self defense is different, and the conical is probably better suited. Size matters maybe even more with conicals, because they may not fit under the loading area of your gun depending on the particular conical. Also, most have a difficulty starting in the chambers if oversized, and being under sized doesn’t work out well. Hopefully this helps. O.R.
@@oldranger3044 I am interested in casting my own and I am a hunter this does help me greatly I just got my hands on a mold for conical and I have store bought round ball and then realized a size difference then started to try to figure it out and run across you again thanks for the information. And so you know I just subscribed to your channel
@@robertlamb7513 Thanks. 👍O.R
@@oldranger3044 you are welcome and the mold I got is Hornady .454 conical if I remember the size right and the round ball is .451 I think you see my puzzlement as a person trying to get into casting my own just thought of something do you have a video or videos for someone like me that wants to start casting
@@robertlamb7513 No, I’ve been casting since the 60’s. Have had some requests for a video, but haven’t done any. One reason is because there’s a lot already on CZcams. As you subscribed, if I do one you will probably get a notice. Thanks for the encouragement about making one for those who are interested in starting. O.R.
Good shooting.
Thanks Paul
Where you actually shooting from 21 yards that's very good shooting man
Yes, and thanks. Most all my bench shooting is done from 21 Yes because that is how my backstop and shooting shed are set. I have a portable backstop that I can move to 25, and also a permanent one at 50. Thanks for asking. O.R.
By the way I kind of recognized your accent are you from Midwest or Minnesota I grew up in Minnesota
Excellent figuring. Less than 60 miles from the border. O.R.
Can you recover some fired bullets/conicals to see how well they take the rifling?
Yes. They all appear to have groves cut, or impressed in. I have not been able to tell if they have increased diameter due to a “bump up “ , because of their damage. O.R.
what surprised me the most was that the 454 had 480mg of sodium.. At that rate you should only shoot about 6 rounds a day.. be safe
Thanks Jim. I should have know that. O.R.
Why do you leave the price tag on the trigger guard?
Believe that is a tag that reminds me of how the gun shoots with a specific load, and how completely it was last cleaned and when. Good question and shows that you are paying attention to detail. Police or military training? O.R.
@@oldranger3044 no I'm not police or any other government agency I just thought it was strange to see what look ed like a old time price tag on the gun you were shooting.
@@oldranger3044 by the way I think your videos are quite good. I shoot 1858s also. The piettas make the cylinder Chambers too small for the bore, and the ones i have are .008-.009 smaller than the barrel groove. 2 uberti i have .449 - .450 cylinder chamber are more in line with the bore size, but still to small for the bore. I wish someone would make the cylinder a 5 shot .451 chamber and the barrel groove .450 and 1 in 16 twist so that standard 45 acp lead bullets would work in the percussion cylinder. A lead 45 acp round nose flat point with a bevel base would make shooting a percussion revolver more effective, more accurate, and most of all, simplify loading. That Would still work fine with .454 .457 round balls.
@@Mike-xi4zt Thanks for your response and ideas. What I would like to know is a couple things. One would be how originals handled this. I assume that the manufacturer of current percussion guns had access to originals and measuring devices. So, is what is being produced now typical?? The second is does the projectile bump-up to fill the groves? I have always had doubts about it. O. R.
@@Mike-xi4zt Yes on both. They are the old style price tags, and its not something you will see often, if at all. Problem I have (if a problem) is I have too many for my short term memory to deal with. O.R.
👍
Does size matter? my ex-girlfriend seems to think it does lol
Love the lube gun! did you make that? I make my own wads but like your gun...would use that with paper cartridges.
Harbor freight mini grease gun. I ended up emptying out the cartridge that came with it. Used that as a liner. Put a grease fitting in the end because then I fit a 3/16 th tube on it that goes into the chambers. I keep using it, so it appears to be doing the job. O.R.
That is some great inovative sh@t right there.. thank you sir I am gonna do that.@@oldranger3044
Good groups all in all, well except for the one child that wanted to go high and play by itself, lol
So did you have 2 different guns or you loaded a 451 then a 454? In the same cylinder? staggered? That seems a little bit strange
Staggered. Figured that would be more equal. Suppose we fired the first 6 with a clean cylinder and barrel. The next ones, say the, .454 would be with fouled chambers and barrel, which can affect things. That’s why I chose to alternate. Switching guns would be right out as that would introduce even more variables. Also the fatigue of the shooter and gun placement is less affected, along with lighting (clouds changing lighting on the sights), and wind gusts. . O.R.
@@oldranger3044 ahhh i see what you were doing,or you could have just ran a brush through it and kept going, but I got you