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Prototype Baffle Round 2: Introduction and Development Process
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- čas přidán 14. 08. 2024
- In this video, I describe a new prototype baffle we are preparing to test this upcoming weekend, produced by Verus Engineering. I go into depth about why we’re still pursuing a baffle and describe some of the tradeoffs in accumulators and dry sump oiling systems.
As always, our goal is to find a way to improve the reliability of these engines on track, and make that solution available to as many people as possible.
Support our oil pressure tests directly by donating to help us cover our testing costs: www.paypal.com...
Other videos of FA24s with oil pressure data logging:
- TrackAndBuild (Tomei): • GR86 Oil Baffle Instal...
- NoStreetRacing86: • 10/16/2022 NorCal 86Dr...
- Vincent Yang: • 2022 BRZ @ VIR - oil p...
- Vorshlag: • Vorshlag 2023 BRZ - SC...
- Ansix Auto: • Oil Pressure Testing: ...
Data analysis on forums:
www.gr86.org/t...
www.gr86.org/t...
Cover photo by Scott Grasso: ...
0:00 Background
1:11 Modification Suggestions
1:57 Dry Sump Tradeoffs
3:02 Accumulator Tradeoffs
5:45 Baffle Benefits
6:11 Verus Baffle Introduction
6:49 Updated Theories For Pressure Drops
10:25 Testing plan
10:49 Thank you
11:07 Request for Donations
11:38 Pressure Drops without Oil Cooler
If anyone knows first hand of a FA24 with an oil baffle, blowing an engine... please post a reply and describe (circumstances, model of baffle etc.)
Yes please. You can also DM me on instagram if you want to stay under the radar.
How long more to we have to wait for this tests' results? 👀
Soon@@maniearias
I still got my popcorn ready!
Great stuff! Fingers crossed for this new prototype, but something tells me it will provide desired results this weekend. The systematic analysis and deductive reasoning by which you are operating to solve the problem makes me feel optimistic.
Thank you! Fingers and toes crossed🤞
I really appreciate your approach on this series! You're not calling anyone out - just presenting the facts of your data. Really enjoy seeing the process on getting towards a solution.
Fantastic job on explaining the various reason why you are still pursuing a baffle as the solution (which I agree will be the cheapest and most reliable solution). Very excited to see your test results. As always thank you for all the effort in putting this together. Greatly appreciate it
Thank you!
I drove EZ30 subaru engine with biggest accusump for several years on track. It was equipped with mechanical valve first year and electrical ball valve after. I drove the car on the street with closed valve and on track with open valve. No issues at all because of additional 3l of oil. Before accusump I tried to build baffle pan with no luck.
I don't have a BRZ, GT86 or FRS and I've been following this.
I really thank you for all your hard work. You could have just sold your car and moved on to a different platform. But you are doing a great job to solve the problem and help others.
I'm wondering what happened. He never released the video the weekend after this was posted. Nothing's been posted on Instagram that I've seen either. I'm putting my faith in this man in hopes he can find a viable solution, this shit got me on the edge of my seat. I bought my BRZ to drive! Not to be scared of driving it. Wishing this man and us all good luck in this project
Will be posting an update soon. Sorry for the delay!
Great information on the challenges of running an accumulator.
Looking forward to further results. Yall are doing amazing work.
Looking forward to Saturday, keep up the amazing work!
Thank you so much for continuing to update this saga!
Tremendous work! I hope for positive results and a resolution to this. I'm also very surprised and glad Verus Engineering is involved in producing a baffle. Looking forward to seeing your conclusions. Nice work.
I was excited to learn track driving for the first time with my 86, but now I'm definitely holding off.
Insane guys, this is some really fast case study, really well done. Wish you guys all the luck, it will be invaluable to the community when it's released!
Thank you so much for your pursuit of this! Looking forward to your results.
Fingers crossed this baffle solves the problem.
Thank you for what you're doing, and I really hope you find a solution.
Man I hope someone finds a solution. I'd be nervous to track the car if I had one.
The solution is a dry sump kit and to stop buying cars marketed as track cars when they obviously have never been tested on tracks.
I'm tracking but I still have powertrain warranty for like 4 years, so I'm not worried
@@AlexandreCardinal50hope you have legal insurance too
@@abunova2718 why legal insurance?
Thank you for all your hard work and dedication to this issue and to the community....Godspeed!
Verus are good guys. I like their stuff. good luck this weekend!
Thanks so much!
Keep us posted once you actually test this new design. It has to be sloshing related with that drastic drop whenever you take right turns. Good stuff!!!
Appreciate the work that has been done so far and looking forward for the second prototype 👍🏼
This is very hype, hopefully we can see some positive results! My own 86 is nearing its delivery date to the dealer, seeing an improvement against the oil pressure drops would be the cherry on top :)
Same here, my 86 should have arrived this week. Any day now. I will buy the Verus baffle right away if it works.
@@PainDive1Enjoy your new 86! I was so happy after driving off with mine, I drove 3 hours away to pick it up and take it home. Those 3 hours back man, I can remember the feeling still, driving her home for the first time. Hopefully you hear from the dealer to pickup soon!
@@fabigr Thank you so much! I got mine today. I can't believe how good this thing is!
Woot, welcome to the team
@@900BRZ thank you, I got up excited to drive this car to work already 😁
Awesome video! Can't wait for the results. FWIW I use an Accusump on both my daily/AutoX car and my track car. I'm a big fan of the pre-oiling benefit!
Do you have an electronic value or a manual one? Accusump may still be in the cards for me.
@@900BRZ electric one, same 3qt setup in both cars. I had a plan to use a nitrous-related RPM window switch for a simple automatic arm/disarm function (along with a relay) but both of my cars' engines are blessed with high idle oil pressures (N54 & LS3) so that hasn't been necessary; I just leave the accusumps armed any time there is ignition power.
@@900BRZ just uploaded a video of an Accusump install on my 2015 FB25 Subaru Forester, if you'd like any inspiration: czcams.com/video/FZsfSZxJn0U/video.htmlsi=zhAaOexc4EQ4lRfy
Man, you are a great man. All my respect from Italy.
Grazie!
I can’t thank you enough for this series. It’s so exhausting reading thread after thread of conjecture on the forums with strong opinions and no evidence. I’m close to selling the car because of this issue, so I hope this baffle works or you can find a solution soon.
Great work! Hopefully these issues will be resolved when I will be able to afford this car in 10 years :)
I appreciate the methodical approach here - hoping it pans out soon 🙂
Waiting for that next update!!!
Thank you for your testing! Looking forward to seeing the results for your friends design!
Fingers crossed this works. I put off buying one of these cars for a couple years to see what happened. But I finally decided to order one and have faith in the community to figure out a solution.
Keep up the good work! It’ll literally pay off if you can fix this problem
Patiently waiting...
It’s out now!
@@900BRZ thanks!
Thanks for doing all this hard work. I am looking forward to finding a nice solution soon. I just purchased one and cant wait to get it on track safely .
Yes! Congrats on your purchase and hope you enjoy on track.
ありがとうございます！
Appreciate the information. Looking forward to it. If the Verus works out lets get a pre-order going!
Thank you for all the testing! You're saving so much time for everyone!
So I live in Michigan. Flew into SFO for a business meeting. Had a minute to myself in the car after the meeting and watched this video. Like, 15 minutes later I was driving up 880 and passed you in your BRZ. Recognized it right away. Weird timing lol.
Haha I was driving to or back from the shop to have the baffle installed. Thanks for sharing.
Awesome! good luck on this test. can't wait to hear how it goes!
Pretty sure the horizontal baffling will provide a solution for most of us. The Kazama and JUN Auto baffles (10 points for guessing who came up with the design first) are the only baffles currently on the market with horizontal baffling. Good to see another player entering the market. Sure if proven successful many others will follow. Good luck!
Also thanks for showing the non oil cooled results. Much appreciated
Vertical you mean?
@@900BRZ yes of course lol. Sorry the excitement got the better of me😅
Highly appreciate all the effort you guys put into this ❤. Looking forward to the rest result.
Good luck brother! You guys are our only hope!
Hope you evaluate the Tomie dual level baffle next. Thanks for your work on this subject.
There’s a link to that baffle being tested in the description.
Great work as always! Best of luck in your testing. Fingers crossed!
chipped in with some of my oil cooler money, not much but feel I must help to support the development!
Thanks for the contribution. Every bit helps!
I’d bet cash the vertical baffle is the winner. It’s really the only solution that makes sense
We use clear tubes run from crank case breathers and radiator overflow and sometimes even transmission and then keep filling until we see foam blown thru tube and instantly lift and then drain back. We SLOWLY increase fill until we see an issue.
Where will you see foamed oil first? crankcase breather? Figure out how to constantly sample and pull that thru a clear line in drivers vision. This is simple stuff we do on various cars we track and race.
Thanks for the ideas! I took some measurements inside the sump to try to get a sense for how much clearance there is before I start to submerge the crank, but I don’t have a good way yet of correlating overfill volume to crank clearance. Measuring froth and oil in the PCV system seems like a good place to start.
I think this baffle is going to be the one. Just an engineering giving his opinion. Good luck. 🙏
How’d it look?! Positive results! We’re all anxiously waiting!
Same
Will be posting an update soon.
Great vids dude thank you
Keep up the great work, Brian. 😌
Seeing that 30PSI drop made me clench as if it was my car 🫣
Same lol
Do you think there will be a solution for higher grip tires such as the RE71RS for example? I love how my GR86 drives, but ultimately I bought it as an upgrade to my NC miata.
However if I have to only run low grip tires, it defeats that purpose entirely and I could save money and go faster with a cheaper car.
Also, Flyin Miata announced a turbo kit for the NC which is sounding very appealing to me, and they claimed they are thoroughly track testing it to ensure max reliability.
I'm gonna hold onto my 86 for a while to see if there's a meaningful solution, but if I have to hold back on track (the one place you're allowed to not hold back), then I would rather swap for a car I can use 100% of, all the time.
Thank you for all the work you put into testing different solutions, and I'm hoping for good results!
If you want to use higher grip tires, then the more involved solutions of an accumulator or even a dry sump might be called for. There are ways to handle all the downsides I mentioned, like more higher frequency inspections/maintenance and $$. So I don’t mean to dissuade people from going down those avenues.
Clay and the verus team are very thorough. Really all those name brands are serious and good IAG Killer B and verus.will be interesting what the fix is. I'm gonna assume a crank scraper and Boxed pick up with flaps might be the answer
I contacted NENGUN about possibly getting access to the STI oil pan used for the GR86 Cup cars. I'm still awaiting their response but it looks far more involved than any of the other baffles I've seen. The part number is STI ST11109Z2000.
From what I’ve heard, the US GR Cup cars are not using that specific baffle.
Fingers crossed. If this works I'll buy one the minute they are available. Tomei currently installed.
I really hope this testing eventually brings a solution to the FA24’s engine problems. It is genuinely the only reason that’s pushing me away from getting a GR86
Once again, great work.
Where is the follow up video with the Results ???
I’ve been waiting for a month now .:)
Out now
Thanks for your hard work/research
Hope everything is ok! Haven't heard back in a while. Screw the video but hope everyone is safe and sound!
Yeah everyone is good, but appreciate that. Hopefully putting up a new video this week on the results!
good luck!
Super excited for results!
Thanks for doing this. I look for updates every day. It would be cool if the new baffle works. But if at high rpm's there is basically no oil left in the sump, I wouldn't expect the baffle to get it done. There is a You tube guy (BTR Justin) that did some spirited canyon driving and he did not see any appreciable drop in oil pressure when turning right. So for us Daily Driver guys, this is probably not a big concern. But it is very interesting.
I wonder if a redesigned oil pan would be of any help.
Yeah I think a redesigned oil pan plus a header to provide more clearance would be a good possible direction as well.
Thanks for the video. looking forward to your test. I have a greddy baffle in my car, but I don't have oil pressure sensor/gagague to monitor the change. At this point, it's just a piece to eaze my mind a little... if this prototype is working well, I will order one and install it in the future.
One of the guys I link to in the description, Vincent, has that baffle. I don’t think there’s enough for conclusive evidence on its performance yet though.
I love you you’re a hero
This is great! Looking forward to it!
Results video coming soon? Been anxiously keeping an eye out for this!
Yes still coming soon, planning on this week!
Very interesting and great work. Now that you have partners with 3D scans of the sumps and some of the engine internals, it would be interesting to understand what is a permissible oil overfill.
From my thinking; what is the capacity of the lower sump and upper sump? How much head room is there before the oil hits the crankshaft and oil aeration occurs.
I just find that 5L fill oil a very round number from an OEM. I'm sure there is some OEM tolerance, but seems very specific.
Someone named Ansix Auto dropped a video where he had some kind of mod that reduced pressures significantly. His videos posted two weeks ago with a third video explaining the mods they did coming soon. Patiently awaiting that video.
I believe it’s an accumulator but yeah they haven’t revealed what they’ve done.
Ah I see …thanks for all your doing for the community! Crossing fingers this pan works!
I know that revolution also made an engine baffle for the gr86 made for decrease pressures loses, i also think that maybe a different oil pickup can partially solve the problem , maybe a pickup that ended at the center of the oil pan
Verus builds some good shite so I’m hopeful for this product 🤞🤞
We may never get a baffle that can fully solve this issue but as long as we can get one that greatly reduces the chances of occurrence, that’s good enough in my book 🤷♂️
I cannot wait !!! This is real science boys ! I'm pumped (not like the oil, bad pun sry). Thank you for the great content man.
Hey, when will you post the video with new oil pan tests, I cant wait :D
Hoping to put another video up this week.
Thank you for this content.👊
As the oil filter is on the right front side (when looking at the engine bay)
Could right hand turns be restricting oil delivery to the RH cylinder head?
As it has already had to pass the LH cylinder head as well as the cylinder block.
Not that it's becoming fully starved at first but if it was enough to slow oil recovery causing a compounding issue.
I wonder if there's a pattern of the LH heads being more prone to damage?
Another thing is the limited surface area of the pick up tube is highly effecting its ability to grab oil . That needs a re design also but to remove it iknow its more internal work
Sub'd, hoping there is a solution as i was looking heavily into the new BRZ but am holding off with the oiling issues for now.
Yay! Clean slate retest and I also agree on the vertical baffle being a good solution! I have high hopes for this one! Donated to the cause!
Thanks so much for your contribution!
Thanks for continued, thoughtful, development work (which should have been done by the factory...are you listening Toyota/Subaru as the class action lawsuit is building momentum). Donation for $100 via PayPal has been made. I hope everyone else with an FA24 watching this does the same. Since the factory doesn't appear motivated to make a solution, $100 is a wise hedge against an 11K long block replacement when the dealer/manufacturers tell you to sit and spin. Please keep up the great work. Looking forward to a reasonable solution to a factory engineering mistake..
Thanks so much for the generous contribution!
Thanks!
Are wwe sure that it heppens at the pan? Could in be somwhere upstream in the pickup before the pump?
We’re not sure, but it’s harder to address problems elsewhere. If baffles don’t work, we’ll go to an accusump next.
Thank you!!
Will a brz baffle fit the wrx engine?
I see that STI offers a sump and baffle for the GR racing cup cars, not sure if it helps much
Hey man, good luck on the test! The community is so awesome for this platform.
Also, I was trying to donate but it says I cannot donate from this country, I'm in Japan. Let me know any other ways I can donate. Thanks
oh wait, I can just send directly on CZcams? WIll that work?
Yeah that will work but CZcams takes 30%. That’s works though. Thanks so much for supporting!
Any benefit to look at an improved pickup, maybe combined with a baffle?
Would the 5w30 oil be acceptable for general daily use? Or just track?
I believe it should be no problem for normal use. In hot climates, like Malaysia, the manual specifies 5W30.
@@900BRZ well I'm from Louisiana so close enough.
Is this issue more concerning if you track it, if the car is used for daily driving how much of a risk does this pose
For daily driving, just make sure your oil level is at the full mark on the dipstick and check the level every other refuel.
The video at the end is scary enough to make me turn left all the way home and I dont even have a boxer
TRD has it’s own baffle kit which is used in the GRcup cars you should try to source one
Yeah would love to get my hands on one.
I really really hope the new designed baffle will at least mitigate the issue in a meaningful way if not completely fix it. But on the other hand, I wonder if a well designed baffle would really help/fix this issue, Porsche would probabaly have had done it a long time ago?
Porsche did make a retrofit for the M96 called X51. And there are aftermarket solutions that improve the performance further on those engines. Hopefully we at least see a noticeable improvement, if not a complete solution
Would a baffle with larger capacity help? E.g. +1qt with baffle so as to not get near crankshaft and cause overfill issues. I remember my celica with 2zz had a baffle oil pan from moroso that added +1qt as an aftermarket option, but with the already "low" engine design, clearance may be an issue for the brz/gr86.
I think you mean a larger oil pan. It would but it’s a little complicated. You can’t easily extend downward without having to swap the pickup. Doing that requires engine out and removing the timing cover, so it’s expensive. You can go wider, plus baffling. You need a custom exhaust header to do that, but it would be something we could potentially look at in the future.
@@900BRZ thanks for letting me know. My first gen BRZ is mostly stock, but I use it for autox/lapping days, so stickier tires are on. Future plans are to do FA24 shortblock swap with FA20 heads, but I'm still keeping my options open and keeping a tab on your videos. Thanks for the testing and updated vids! If all else fails, I might jump the gun on K24 swap instead since I'm mainly looking for NA reliability on the track, but $15k was the quote I got from ASM Motorsports - they specialize in Kswaps and have done a few on the BRZ twins chassis (with testing) and live conveniently down the road from me.
Thanks for all the great information! Would one solution be to add a second pickup tube on the opposite side of the oil pan so that no matter if lateral Gs become a factor, there is always oil to be picked up?
Some cars have multiple pickups, but I’m not really sure how this works. Wouldn’t that cause an issue if either pickup tube was sucking air?
@@900BRZ very good point!! I wonder if it could cause some sort of cavitation issues that you see in mechanical pumps
I've gone from 2014 GT 86 to a 2019 BRZ and an now picking up my GR86 a very rare beast at it's now banned from sale in the UK and Europe. I wonder as you drive on the right the oil pressure drop is on the right I wonder on Left hand drive cars will the pressure drop be on Left turns? And what is the real cause of the drop dues anyone know?
The engine is the same between LHD and RHD cars. Mainly they have to flip the location of the brake master cylinder and booster and the battery. Also the steering column.
What I'd also be curious is finding out if the oil pressure drop is found in the FA24F inside new Subaru WRX's.
I heard that one called FA24DIT. It has differences to provide oil to the turbo so I’m not sure. One thing is there’s a lot more room for a higher capacity sump, so in some ways it would be easier so solve on that car if there is an issue.
@@900BRZ Not to suggest the WRX will have the exact same problem, but I would be curious if the fundamental design exhibits the same similarities. Much like how the Gen 1 86/BRZ was used as a control in the original test, it did show pressure drops as well, but not as extreme as to cause failure.
How much is involved with instrumenting the car?
I’d like to write it up. It’s quickly becoming more accessible as various people work on solutions.
Nice video! What tire/wheel setup are you using on the track? Those look nice and I am looking for a setup for my BRZ track day.
These are 949Racing 6UL 17x8 ET40. They went out of production a couple years ago when they started to have fakes hitting the market, I believe produced from the same facility. They have since relocated production and are working toward making 86 wheels I believe in early 2024.
Enkei TS-10 and TS-5 are also good options with 17x8 ET45. They’re a little heavier but also inexpensive. I think of wheels as consumables, so that’s important for me.
@@900BRZ Thank you for your reply. Yea, I am also thinking about the 17x8 225 (bronze wheel + sapphire blue seems really good!) for my BRZ. I got really confused (I am new to car modifications) with all the options out there. I noticed that Enkei do sell the two rims that you mentioned, how are they compared to their well known RPF1? Should I go for 35 or 45 offset (maybe a BBK in the future)?
@thehoodieguy3491 RPF1 have worse brake clearance than the Enkei options. I think ET45 is better for the rear and you can always add a small space in the front. I’m running ET45 with a 7mm Perrin spacer in front.
@@900BRZ Thanks for the advise! I just purchased the Enkei TS-10 17x8 ET45 w/ Continental ExtremeContact DWS06 225/45R17 (DD tire)!
I understand you want to keep all things constant, but why eventually move to 300v vs the 8100?
I have used 300V in the past. Imo it’s not worth the additional cost for this platform. Also one of my friends with an engine failure in his FA24 was using 300V from the start, so it’s not going to fix anything.