I was wrong about MDF...
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- Äas pĆidĂĄn 14. 01. 2023
- I torture tested MDF vs. Plywood to see how they would hold up to water, weight and fire! The results were unexpected.
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Check out the original MDF vs. Plywood video: czcams.com/video/Vwx3YivaPHk/video.html
As you can see from the comments below , whether or not to use MDF in a project is of great interest to the folks who clicked-in to watch your Vid . There are some really good comments below that include some good questions and discussions for possible add-on topics for you to explore ! Good job _SO FAR_ đ!
Actually you weren't wrong totally. It's actually a special MDF looking Material called MD-X or MED-X that's made for wet areas, example-around sinks in cabinets. I'm a 3rd generation Wood Craftsman/Cabinet maker with !5-20yrs experience myself.
Douglas fir pine ? Marine plywood ? Missing? You get an f , do it over
Did you weigh the wood before and after?
both MDF vs. Plywood dont like water in the long run and both have there use for things ... if ou take a nice full wood shells you get the same over time ... but agian i only been a carpenter for +30 years, your testing was fun and good ...
My main observation with MDF is how it warps over time. It seems nice and strong at first but If I have a shelf made from MDF it will sag over time much worse than plywood with the same weight on it.
Agreed, especially if you put a bunch of books on it. The MDF will get saggier and saggier, but ply will hold up pretty well for years.
Add front lip made of MDF/Ply/Softwood/hardwood. For bonus points support it at the back AND sides.
I have some metal framed MDF shelves in the garage and I flip them every year or so. Iâve also painted them on all sides to try and keep the swelling from high humidity down.
@@colinjohnson5515 I noticed that the warped plywood in the vide was turned upside down, which of course made it resist better.
Your idea of flipping the shelves is of course the way to go, for that very reason. A little bit of "negative" warping reduces the load stress in the middle, until the shelf is warping down again, at which point the load is concentrated in the center.
It is just basic geometry,
MDF paints so well, but it definitely needs ample reinforcement.
Fun bonus idea: measuring the difference in red water volume would help understand just how much is being absorbed by the pieces.
I was just about to comment saying he should have weighed the boards pre-soak. Good thinking
@@tannertgf or measure the water in the jar before and afterâŠ.
â@@BleachDemon99weight would be better as it controls for evaporation
we used the physical properties of MDF to save our basement in case of flooding. Two tracks of U-shaped aluminium on both sides of a critical doorway, just slightly wider than the thickness of the MDF-Board. A bead of silicone to seal the entrance. If water entered the basement the MDF expanded and closed the gap in the u profile stopping the water to intrude any further.
oh, very smart!
V smart mfer
@@Fixthisbuildthat is it though?
I don't get it. I'll need to see some photos.
Yeah, I had this when I came back from holidays and a pine wood cellar door wouldn't open because there had been water pushing through the wall into the room on the other side and the door swelled when the water reached it.....
I watched this and the previous video at cheap desk with a painted MDF top. When it gets a tiny scratch, any amount of water (condensation on glasses, spilled drinks, or even from sweat in the summer) causes it to swell and create bumps. There's no fixing it. Stumpy Nubs had a tip to use CA glue to re-seal the mdf, so it won't get worse in those locations, but the desk has pock marks all over it now.
I had the same issue with a premade composite bench top that's sealed 1/2 flake board w/inner solid 2x6 construction. I skimmed the entire surface with epoxy using a pc of thin styrene about 4x6" and (1/16,.062 1.5mm thk.)Try to not leave ridges as you smear coat by overlapping. Then sand down the micro ridges leftover with a 1/4 sheet sander after its cured and do this till your desired thickness is achieved. Last coat sand progressively finer till 400 or better for a nice low shine finish that's ready to beat up again! LOL
EDIT: Sand surface first to 220 or 320 before epoxy coating and between each coat or it will not adhere to the previous smooth surface and chip/peel more easily.
I made shelves a long time ago with MDF and they warped so hard it was more a roller coaster than a shelf even though there was very little weight put on to them (the vertical boards held pretty well which is interesting).
I also made another shelve around the same time I made the MDF ones but this one was made from plywood and it is still standing strong even after putting a huge old heavy tv on it for years.
I used hardwood stair treads for rebuilding a bookcase 15 or 20 years ago. Those shelves are still as straight as they were new, even after being fully laden for all that time.
At our shop we sometimes use âmarine grade MDFâ thatâs more stable in situations with water exposure; we use it mainly for doors, in rooms that get lots of humidity
Oh yeah âMedexâ , more garbage!
I still think you need to test the MDF deflection over time. I'm reasonably certain if you put the MDF shelf under a load of a full month, it will deflect a lot more than when you first applied the load.
This is the biggest problem for me. We all know about the water capabilities, or lack there of, of MDF but not many know of the issue of creep. Under a consistent pressure MDF will slowly deform to a much greater degree then plywood. I've seen MDF shelves with little to no weight on them that where several years old and sagging several inches in the center.
@@jasonharrison25 Can confirm - I'm looking at some sagging MDF shelves right now. An even tougher comparison for the MDF than plywood would be solid pine shelves. Having all of the long grain aligned with the direction of bending should make them stiffer than plywood.
That happens on my book shelves. I take the books out and flip the shelves over every now and then.
@@markburton5292 I've wondered how well it would work to get a steel bar a little thinner than your table saw kerf about 1/2" tall and epoxy that in a grove near the front and back of the shelf to stiffen it up. I just wonder if the the epoxy would pull out of the MDF over time. I guess you could drill several small holes and then drive some pin nails in the front edge to hold better. On the back side you could just screw a 3/4 x 1/8" steel strip since that wouldn't be visible.
I used to do a quick and easy closet organiser. All the shelves are sagging. I made another from oak plywood. Its still straight as can be.
15:39 lol how excited you got at the failure. Love it! Great tests Brad!
I didn't expect the shotgun crack, though it'd just slowly tear. So I wasnt ready for that đđ. Happy New Year, Matt!
I always appreciate your videos! If you would have flipped the plywood over so it bowed downward, it would have likely been weaker than placing it with the bow upwards. This is the same reason they design flatbed semi trailers to bow upwards when they're not loaded.
considering he had the bowed side flipped down for the MDF, i feel like this was a really ignorant mistake.
Because the arch is the strongest support for a span...
Brad, I hate to break it to you, but those ARE NOT bags of concrete, but rather concrete mix. đ
Unlike the plywoods, the types of binders used in MDF produce VOCs that significantly contribute to "sick home syndrome"... and I hate the weight of MDF... moving full sheets of 3/4" gets old really quickly.
Oh yeah, I still hate MDF, lol
You're all wrong. They're sacks!
I'm a landlord. We own and manage a number of apartment buildings - not high end condos, but 3 - 4 level, wood frame housing for working families. The kitchen cabinets built with 3/4" plywood are nearly indestructible; many are original from the 1960's and 1970's. The MDF cabinets rarely last 10 years.
Great video! As far as moisture resistance goes....30 years ago I had Formica counter tops made. The counter top guy told me to paint the underside of the back splash with oil base kilz or oil base primer before he installed it. He said this would keep the particle board from swelling up if the silicon caulk seal should fail. I also paint the underside of the front (especially near a sink). I have had great success with both applications. I would also paint the side of the particle board on the side of the cut out for a sink. I would paint any wood product for this kind of application. (I was a professional painter. I would understand if people are saying, they paint everything.)
I think it's ridiculous that the cabinet under/around a sink is made from cheap particle board. You _know_ it will get wet eventually. If I were making custom cabinet work, I would make this one compartment at least out of better material. When I had the opportunity, working under the sink, I laminated a sheet of contractor plastic along the bottom and a few inches up the sides.
@@JohnDlugosz - I do not think the original comment was referring to the cabinets; particle board is the typical material that is used when a laminate countertop is made, so I think the original comment was strictly referring to the particle board that is bonded to the Formica sheet.
@@stevebabiak6997, You are correct in what I was referring.
@@JohnDlugosz I think it's ridiculous to make a cabinet around the sink of any kind of wood. I have a sink and countertop completely made of stainless steel. It does not wear and does not swell. This has been common practice in my country for decades.
Two thoughts: One, I've noticed that both MDF and particle board fail slowly when they have a constant load on them. Shelves that seem fine with a certain weight when built will gradually bow and eventually break over the course of years. I suspect it has to do with changing humidity, but that's just a guess. Second, what is the water resistance rating of the glue in that plywood? I think most ply now uses water-resistant glue, but I know that if you soaked a piece of older standard plywood overnight you would just have a stack of veneer flitches when it dried out. MDF has its uses, but I wouldn't use it for anything that is load-bearing or that has a high probability of getting wet. These tests pretty much reinforce my opinions formed over several decades of using the stuff.
Brad, thank you very much for your time and effort xo
đ
My experience is the same as the outcome of this video except for the solid wood edge version.
I haven't done that, but I will now. I'll be using mdf in different ways now.
Thanks Brad!!
I have not even seen the video yet ...but 600 pounds of concrete and a flame thrower have got me riveted to the screen!
Oh my god, you are an answer to my prayers Sir. As an entry level cabinet installer, I will have more confidence facing and explaining to my customers. You answered a dozen important questions in this 10 minute video.....thanks once again.
Brad, this video was very useful and I thank you for all the time and effort you put into it!
But seriously: this was fun, you had me laughing out loud, for real!
Glad you enjoyed it! đ
in what way was this video useful?
@@Fixthisbuildthat how would OSB fare in this competition?
The last plywood deflection test had physics on its side. I would have liked to seen it tested with the bow down as well.
My thoughts exactly, Iâm p sure it would have bowed down when it was wet, right?
Great job! Would be Intersting to see a similar test with exterior sheathing options like OSB, OSB with a weather barrier, and a zip type board. Could even test tape applications on joints, etc.
If the materials are in danger of getting wet, use marine ply or waterproof (outdoor) MDF.
The plywood that my company gets, comes apart from humidity change. I think it's held together by hope.
There are many grades and types of plywood.
Interesting, Brad. The arch in the plywood actually strengthened it. That's why it had less deflection. Look at a large dam and they're arched against the water pressure. Also, you were having entirely too much fun with that torch.
Bill
yeah, after I saw the bow I figured it might be even stronger....though ugly, lol
@@Fixthisbuildthat Look at flat deck semi-truck trailers, you'll see unloaded they are parabolic in order to increase strength and resist deflection. Arch up is much stronger in your test case, and will deflect less.
now if that was placed with the arch down, it may not have been as strong
Or bridge supports...
We call it Major Deficiency Fixer because MDF is so versatile, I even use drywall mud on it to blend it into walls
Iâm digging the Mr. Brad science dad with this testing đ. Also cool slo-mo at the end where the concrete bags were levitating. Good fun!
Interesting and informative video. I work on cabinets (mostly refinishing existing cabinets) and I have the same experience with MDF shelves that I'm reading in the comments about warping over time. I've seen it on both ply and MDF but is certainly more pronounced in MDF. If we don't end up replacing the shelves for whatever reason, I just flip them over.
It would be interesting to see how exterior grade and marine plywoods compare.
exterior grade plywood doesnt exist. marine ply does.
â@@deadprivacywhat about tanilised ply?
@@azzman73 itll rot. Everything rots except larch, teak, greenheart, iroko ,sapele, but tgey will rot given the right citcumstance,.
Only thing that wont rot is marine ply.
I don't even work with wood at all and I still watched the whole video.
Thanks for being both educating and entertaining!
Another great video. In the UK we have different grades of MDF big box is worst ( crumbly edge ) , normal MDF and MR MDF ( moisture resistance ).
Edit after a little research Medite ( better quality MDF maker ) also do a Flame retardant MDF , no added formaldehyde MDF , Exterior MDF , Breathable MDF , Lightweight MR MDF , Industrial (High density) MDF .
I'd really like to check out some of the MR stuff!
Plywood also has different 'grades' of glue - the best ('A' bond) is made with Resorcinol resin - they used to make fighter jets with it (De Havilland Vampire for instance) and cheaper ply is made with PVA or Melamine-Urea-Formaldehyde as the glue and is only moisture resistant ("C" Bond) and will delaminate if left out in the rain. Resorcinol resin leaves a dark purple glue line which some people don't like while the Melamine is pale and not particularly noticeable
There's also Trycoya which has the fibres treated before bonding to make the boards water proof. Used for making external doors and building cladding. Claimed to resist decay longer than cedar.
Brad-always appreciate these kinds of educational videos; am wondering if you could do an educational video on LEDs 101? I know youâve done a couple videos (which Iâve watched) on putting LEDs in your work but feeling like I canât find a soup to nuts video from design to installation on LEDs in woodwork and think youâd be great at teaching something like that. Thanks for any consideration you give this idea.
Re. the water tests; it would be interesting to see the results using marine ply (as used in boat building) which is made with a glue with resistance to long term water exposure, even under pressure (as when it forms the hull of the boat).
Resided a house w/ an MDF like faux t1 11 of sorts. That Georgia Pacifc siding we replaced was falling apart lol. Over time plywood will (can) last a long time when used appropriately.
This was so entertaining to watch! Scratched that geek itch with your %Swole chart for sure. Iâm even a non-builder-handyperson type and this was great to watch. Well done
The only thing I would say is that by widening your gap that the mdf had to span you built in a flaw to your test because no matter the material, the wider the gap with weight centered on it, the more deflection and lower load capacity it will have. Wish youâd kept the gap the same width as when you were testing to 600 lbs. at that width you might have actually gotten to 1000 lbs. Also, did you consider testing plywood with a hard wood edge banding? Thatâs the most common method is hobbyists use. Love your content and the conversation.
Yep, I wish he kept the same width, too.
Brad, thank you very much for your time and effort.
Great video! One interesting thing to add to the water soak test - you could weigh the water cup before and after the test. There could be a difference between surface and internal soaking. Weighing the water would give you the amount of water being held in each wood/mdf sample.
I really appreciate you taking the time to make videos like this. Awesome job!
You have to be really careful when applying heat to MDF. Formaldehyde is usually part of the manufacturing process.
That new MDF snap-dance is gonna be a big hit at the club! :D
What really got me was the sealed MDF still swelling like crazy. In the past I've used SMD Sunflash fiberglass resin to seal MDF, but after seeing this, I'm changing my materials list for a couple sheltered outdoor projects to avoid MDF entirely.
Thank you!
You bet! đ
An outdoor paint primer works better
Thanks for running the tests! I was surprised at the performance of the MDF.
I think it took to heart the old "bend, don't break" adageđ
During Christmas week of 1984, my wife, 9 yr old son and I went to my mother's house 100 miles south for a week. Temps dropped to about 22 degrees Fahrenheit, enough to freeze the water pipes in my mobile home. It was a 1969 model, built with 3/4" MDF flooring. The water covered the kitchen, living room, and hallway floors, all carpeted. We tore up the carpets and replaced them, and over the next 6 months, the floors started sagging between joists. I had to pull up the new carpeting, and replace the flooring. I used 3/4" CDX plywood (I think about $8.00/sheet at the time) and it's still there, having had pet water spills and another 2-day flood sit on it. I'd probably have had to replace MDF at least twice more.
Plywood comes in interior, exterior, marine, and treated. MDF comes in many different types also. You should also show OSB and particle board.
great video! The biggest problem I have with MDF is that even though it seems like it can hold a lot of weight, it can't do it indefinitely. little by little it will sag more and eventually fail. At least thats my experience with it.
Built custom cabinetry, shelving and whatnot for 30+ years and have never heard any tradesman call it "edge banding".
'Finished edge', 'nosing', 'front edge', 'trim boards', 'front supports'... probably a bunch more names for it.
We always use 'edge banding' if it's just a veneer over the edge of the shelf material.
10:00 "I love the smell of burnt MDF in the mornin'." đ
đ Love the guitar riff added to the MDF vs. flamethrower shot. đ€đđ
I'd love to have seen the edged MDF tested until breaking. For a follow up consider mdf versus moisture resistant (mr) mdf AND acetylated mdf (e.g. Trycoya). The latter has the wood fibres chemically modified before bonding making them hydrophobic. It is claimed to be suitable for structural work outdoors. Very expensive but, if it's as good as claimed, you might get a free sample from the manufacturer. Would be really interesting to see if the considerable extra expense is worth considering for e.g. making perfectly smooth external doors and trim.
Iâd like to see that mostly the trycoya Iâve never used it because itâs ridiculously expensive here if you can find a supplier
The only thing I see that could be questionable when you place the weight on the shelf. You've got it dispersed across the two sides more than in the middle. I would be curious if you stacked one row of concrete directly in the middle vertically how much it would hold that would be a better representation of the strength
These look like a combo of fun, curiosity, and hard work to make. Thanks!
For future oneâs regarding water exposure:
1) Seeing Marine Plywood in comparison would be interesting to see if/when itâs worth using
2) What easy and fast to apply finishes (and how much) return adequate water protection. Eg how far Water based Poly or Lacquer go vs expoxy. Is soray can sufficient.
Kinda wish you'd have tested to failure on dry vs wet plywood & mdf, like that last test.
Also it's probably worth mentioning in the swell tests, that that massive amount of swelling will do things like rip screws through MDF. Even if your shelf doesn't outright fail, it'll weaken and loosen considerably after even limited moisture exposure - not because the board itself is substantially compromised, but because the swelling and shrinking process is so extreme that it shakes the whole structure up.
It wasn't until AFTER the MDF snapped that I thought "I wonder if he's wearing steelcaps".
Just before that, at 400 pounds, he was standing over the end of the board when he put that bag of cement on there. That's when I thought "I wonder if he's wearing a cup?"
weight distribution. place the weight in the center. you have it spread across the entire width of the board, which test the cleat strength, not the boards. Your results would appear faster that way.
If I could point load 1000 pounds that would be great, but it's kinda hard to get all that weight on a small space :)
I agree, those two bags on the bottom spread the load way away from the center and actually gives an edge to MDF, making it falsely appear similar to the plywood. You can pointload better by starting with one bag in the center, then next layer is 2 bags perpendicular, then 2 more perpendicular, etc. I've done it (for stacking on a scale), it's possible, you just have to stack carefully.
Excellent testing Brad & that slow-mo at the end of the video is classic! đđđđ
Informative and fun! I just wish you'd done the plywood at the end as well to show the load-bearing difference between them.
Fantastic testing, Brad! Really well done! đ
My problem with MDF is that it's REALLY humid here where I live... So, if I buy MDF and there are scraps left... They turn into mud in about 6 months. đŹ
BUT... There's the waterproof MDF (which I forgot the name)... And I still need to try it!
Anyway, stay safe there with your family! đđ
Marine Grade MDF?
@@Marcus_Caius Could be. I don't really remember the name.
yes, I've heard of that waterproof MDF and I need to get my hands on some!
Generically, it's just called moisture resistant mdf. It's available under a variety of names from different manufacturers. MR50 is the top rating in the US.
Advantech. It's not waterproof, it's water-resistant, and only slightly. It's designed to allow for sub-floor installation without the fear of a rain or two killing the floor. It will still fail in prolonged water, and it still sucks to get it wet. There is a good video out there from a flooring company that explains the biggest drawback: Once MDF / Advantech is wet, it loses pretty much all nail-holding power, forever. Said video explains and shows this (along with the swelling), and is the reason that company will not warranty any nail-installed floor over MDF (or advantech). Plywood > MDF. Screws > Nails. The only reason either are used is speed and price.
Interesting information. Thanks for spending the time doing it. But after building cabinets for 50 years. There is no comparison in the quality and strength of the cabinet between MDF and plywood. The plywood is going to be much lighter and much stronger because all of the joints are far stronger with plywood.
couldn't agree more!
As a residential contractor, I've replaced under-sink plumbing in dozens of sinks, possibly hundreds, I don't really keep track. Cabinets made of of MDF, if the leak has been around for a while, say multiple weeks or even months, I've put my hand through them. However, I've replaced under-sink plumbing in kitchens with plywood floors that had leaks that may have been there for years and the floors were just fine once they dry out. MDF is fine for construction that you know will always be dry, say a bedroom dresser or in-wall desk. But if there is ever any chance of moisture, say kitchen cabinets or bathroom vanities, you better go with plywood. When I frame houses, I won't even use OSB on the floors because I've seen what happens if it gets wet and it's inevitable that the floor of a house will eventually be wet. Just like MDF, OSB has it's place, but it's not a replacement for plywood.
wow look at all those plans you have. and reasonable! i'm coming back to get some as soon as i have stuff sorted that i have room to build!
Great tests, data, and presentation! Easy subscribe
Would be interesting to see how different woods fare in more realistic conditions - say a room with high humidity over the course of a few months. The wicking action I think helps the plywood dry faster, but that wouldnt necessarily be so relevant if the air itself was moist. Would be a hard test to do though, something so subtle over a long time vs something more extreme over a short time. Maybe a decent humid air test setup could be constructed within a plastic box with a little fan inside and then stuck in the garage for a few months
It's a relevant point that warped wood can be stronger than flat wood, if you utilize the curvature to help distribute the force like you did in the shelf deformation test. Whereas I cant think of any situation where wettened mdf would ever get better
The slowmo breaking looked like a cartoon with how much faster the wood floor broke out vs how long it took the concrete to start falling lol
yeah, that slow mo was fun to watch đ
I would also like to see a test of strength under consistent weight over time, and maybe humidity + weight over time. The thing that always makes me hesitant to use MDF is thinking of all the crappy MDF shelves I've known in my life that have permanently bowed by inches. I have a big-box utility shelf in my basement where one of the levels is basically a bowl now. It seems like MDF continues to sag more and more in a way that plywood doesn't-but of course I don't have experimental data to be sure that plywood would have performed better in those same conditions.
Really interesting on the MDF with hardwood face, might actually consider that for shelving when I wouldn't have before.
You can make plywood much stronger by adding a hardwood face as well. Plywood shelving is much better than MDF, especially if it isn't a built-in and will be moved occasionally.
I've often used edged mdf for shelves with excellent results.
†(the vid i didn't know i needed! also, love how you talk fast and there isn't dead space. quicker to get info while researching, etc. :D )
Another thing worth noting... marine grade mdf exists.
In my humid environment of SW Florida, regular mdf is nearly worthless (unless you have $50k worth of plastidip lol).
I'll buy the concrete from you since you didn't use it... You just have to pay shipping thanks đ
No problem, I'll send it media mail
In regards to the wet shelf test when you were wondering why someone might have water on them long term - if someone raises houseplants or has a seedling nursery then you can't avoid a near permanent water presence on the wood. My grandmother did both the plywood shelves all had water stains.
The thing that's hardest to test, but that I've observed in the real world is how in humid environments over time the ambient moisture tends to soak into MDF and make it sponge up, and weaken then fall apart. Which is why when I was looking at vanities for my bathroom remodel, I looked specifically for wood construction and immediately nixed any that had any mention of MDF
I use a ton of mdf, but I only use Finsa fibrapan hidrofugo mdf which is moisture resistant.
I left a piece submerged in water for about 24 hours and it was exactly the same size and shape.
Would be really interesting to se you test different types of mr mdf and maybe marine ply đ
that's so cool
Are you in Europe? MR mdf is hard to source in North America.
Ive seen some cool colored MDF as well...I saw in the Hooked on Wood channel. Don't think it's as easily available here in the US.
@@qfudgedoggy itâs not. Itâs made in Europe. Portugal makes some of the best.
Whatâs available here is imported and thus not cost effective.
@@homer009x yes, im located in Norway đ
that slow mo at the end there was actually awesome and felt like a will e and road runner moment lol.
I think the big takeaway is that each type has its own uses. Some shared, some not. It's another tool that needs to be selected by use case.
This was amazing. I never know why I watch your videos since I do make anything but for some reason they are fascinating. You are such a nerd about exactnessâŠthatâs not an insultđ
"Nerd about exactness" I love that, lol
Haven't watch the video yet but taking from the last one one of the issues with MDF is long term load, so it bents permanently over time.
You need to buy some Ikea furniture it's MDF plus cardboard..đ€Ș
Yeah, thought of that one. Seemed boring though đ
THANK YOU!! My girlfriend has always thought I was using the word 'Deflected' wrong when doing DIY stuff around the house.... YOU sir have proven her wrong.. đđ
Brad, than you very much for your time and effort. This was great.
I hear what you are saying... If you want a thicker face profile on your shelving, get some 3/4" MDF and soak it in water. Boom! Much less expensive thicker shelf.
đ
5:35 I hope you used metric units for these tests. It's pretty each to see how much more accurate the millimeter scale would be in this test alone. Plus metric is much better overall for all use cases, except for some historical context.
We Americans wouldn't understand...
Brad, firstly, thank you for your effort.
But I'm an engineer so let's really nerd out here and have some fun with this. There is a very specific thing at the @6:13 portion of the video that you are missing. Not only are you loading the platform with 300lbs, you are doing so across the span of the platform. From a statics standpoint, the study of forces on non-moving objects, this is an example of loading the lever arms close to the point of rotation. If you were to put the same load but focus it directly at the center of the platform, there would be a larger moment-arm on the lever arm, this being the side wood support for the platform. This test shows the ability of a platform to support a load statically applied evenly across its surface area, with minimal acceleration of the load. The same load focused at the midpoint of the shelf would have likely resulted in failure of the platform. I believe that the same load applied more rapidly with some induced acceleration acting in the same plane as the deflection of the platform would have also likely resulted in failure.
Was that nerdy enough?
Thanks for the awesome video man.
Cheers.
Cameron, I am also an engineer (BSME UTK 2000) and I try to block out my Statics, Dynamics and certainly Differential Equations classes when at all possible. And while I do agree with you in theory, in practice working with bags of concrete you can only be so scientific and precise with your point loads đ Glad you enjoyed the vid despite my haphazard methods
@@Fixthisbuildthat oh this was an awesome video and think that you did a really great job shooting it. You're a pleasure to watch. Cheers.
Plywood was placed bow-up. The bow, acting as an arch, is the source of the increased strength. Had you placed it bow-down, it would have deflected more.
Thanks for the video. Was a lot of fun. First time I've seen your channel.
:)
Brad, thank you very much for your time and effort
Very interesting test :) You should also try to see if those smaller boards that were completely submerged would snap under load too. It would require a different jig, but it'd be interesting for sure :)
An interesting thing, I removed MDF baseboards in a flooded basement, 6" deep, severely soaked, and it remained fully, dimensionally stable. It was so flexible I could almost bend a 5 foot radius without snapping it, but it didn't swell one bit. The only reason we threw it in the dumpster is because of mold. Else, we could have let it dry and reinstall it. I think it's a different MDF than sheet goods, because I've seen them double in thickness when soaked. I like the t-shurt.
Great job Brad! Thanks for sharing the video with us!đđđJP
Your slow motion MDF snapping was a case study in why you should wear steel toe boots, you didn't react until after the load had contacted the floor.
Dude is killing it. Great tests and presentation. Fellow Tennessean to boot! Go Vols!
Try Medex mdf amazing product, use it for outdoor signs, have one that is close to 30 years old, still good shape, stiffer product too. Testing water resistance of an interior mdf really isnât fair.
There's definitely high quality MDF out there, but in the perspective of a furniture/small item online that is made from MDF, it is plagued with low quality MDF. It crumbles, bent, vinyl stickers peeling off, water damage will literally ruin it, etc.
Built a platform to hold my front load washer and dryer. Used 1 inch MDF for the deck. That was 8 years ago. Recently had to remove the washer and dryer, absolutely no issues with the MDF.
For trim, MDF is great. It doesn't bear load and it's installed vertical, thus sag isn't an issue. Especially crown moulding or ceiling shiplap should always be MDF since they will never sit under a soaked towel or be brushed with a mop. Now, you have the benefits of superior paint finish without popping grains, the unparalleled straight edge of a non-warping grain pattern, the ease to cut and assemble, and the low price. It doesn't cup and will remain as a flat surface. For painted trim, it's my favorite.
As an added bonus, your saw blade will keep cutting like brand new for FAR longer.
Anyone that has worked with these products absolutely knows their limitations. ANY glued wood, whether it be plywood or MDF or Oriented Strand Board, will ALL suffer significant water damage if exposed to it. It also fails dramatically right when LEAST expected, like say on a bright sunny day when temp hit the high 90's while you are relaxing in your pool side Chaise having a few pina colada's to stave off the heat.........when suddenly the expanded hot roof damaged OSB or plywood collapses right into your Dream Home. Yea, that actually happened to me. The BEST Roofing plywood is a special type of structural plywood called Marine Grade Plywood. It is not cheap for a reason. IT IS THE BEST. OSB takes longer to get wet than plywood but also takes longer to dry out. When used as a roof sheathing, this tendency to hold moisture means it can degrade faster than plywood when exposed to chronic leaks. (Think Asphalt Shingle roofs folks)
MDF is mostly used as a cabinetry material or wood trim material. Just pay the price for quality and stop the Cheap crap unless you are trying to flip a house. Then of course go cheap, by the time it fails you will be long gone with the DOUGH. IF you are buying a HOUSE make Damn Sure you hire a professional inspection service to evaluate ALL the structural elements, plumbing and electrical or you will be paying thru the nose later.
One of the tests we used to do, when testing for the effects of moisture on a building material, is to run wet/dry cycles. More than long-term exposure to moisture, I think you'll find that the number of wet/dry cycles a material can withstand will surprise you, especially with mdf vs a wooden laminate like plywood.
Yup. I used to work for a building products company and spent at least one day a week in the lab, running similar kinds of tests.
I built a boat and a 17 foot sea kayak out of top quality marine plywood, the kayak in 4mm and the dinghy in 6mm for the hull. I got lots of offcuts and used some on my chicken coup. It wasn't treated with epoxy or paint, nothing and it's been exposed now for over 3 years to soaking wet winters and over 100F summer temps and that ply has faded but the ply's are all still glued tightly together and nothing has swelled up. If that was similar thickness MDF it would be destroyed in one year easily, especially in the wet winter months. I also built a basic gate for the coup and used the ply for the corners to give it some structural integrity, those little triangular corner pieces are also still in great condition
Brad, I would have liked to have seen one more shelf tested - the radiata plywood with a hardwood face... I suspect that would be quite a bit stronger than the MDF/hardwood shelf.
I work at a plant that makes plywood and MDF, MDF is very very heavy and sturdy. pretty neat to see this
When it comes to shelfs I have found it's about what happens after 5 years. And often the shelfs that didn't warp at all and weren't seriously loaded end up sagging tremendously. Take the shelf off and it is a permanent bend.
Do not despair if you buy mdf only to realise itâs being used in a potentially wet environment! I bought shelves with mdf boards to hold a few small fish tanks (keeping the combined weight comfortably below the advertised weight limit for the shelves of course) and when I spilled some water onto them I was shocked at how much the board warped, threatened the stability of the shelvesâŠnot good when you have several heavy glass water boxes sitting atop said materialâŠ
I was able to fix it by painting the boards with a few coats of weatherproof paint-the boards also felt significantly better at weight distribution after this and overall it gave the shelves a classier look. So just know if you do buy cheap shelves you can give them a significant upgrade with a little bit of time and effort.
I laughed way too hard at "Thank you very much for your time and effort" đ€Ł
Good video as always. I enjoyed the various tests you performed and have no complaints. I do wonder how well a âMR/moisture resistantâ mdf such as Medite MR or a pressure treated plywood would have faired. I know we donât usually use pressure treated plywood much as woodworkers but I do use MR style mdf on occasion.
I am a fan but Iâm not THAT heavy! đ
Ron
Sadly, the people who poured the walkway along our garage (done before I was around) brought it right up to the MDF siding. When I went to paint, some of the nails were out a good quarter of an inch.
To give the MDF an edge, I used the plastic 3/4" quarter round and siliconed the heck out of it against the garage and concrete (none on the paint, so paining was not compromised).
Crossing my fingers.
Think of a main use of MDF - kitchen cabinets. The base cabinets sit end grain down on the floor, when the leak occurs, it is sitting in a puddle of water which wicks right up into MDF and it does indeed turn to sawdust. Bottom shelves of cabinets do the same thing. You put your blanket over a relatively small surface area. The fact is that when a bathroom or kitchen leak occurs, it typically covers not only the surface but soaks into the edge grain and end grain as well causing it to warp separate and yes, turn to sawdust. MDF should never be used for cabinets in wet areas, but everyone does.
I've been doing cabinets for over 25 years. Sink cabinets with an MDF bottom will turn into a bowl after a long slow leak. Plywood might get moldy, but it will still be flat. MDF shelves are a no-no, unless they are 16 inches or less wide, as they will sag tremendously over time. Just getting rain on the ends of melamine shelves causes them to blister as they suck up the moisture. A true sign of cheap cabinets is particle board.
Engineered wood products can hold up incredibly well if they're well-supported.
I have a desk that's almost 30 years old with a 1/2" chipboard (low density) top that hasn't warped at all. It's 60" wide, 32-ish" deep (not sure off the top of my head), and has supported hundreds of pounds for much of its life - I've stood on it next to multiple CRT monitors!
But it's supported by a pair of 20"-wide, full-depth cabinets, to which it's clamped down. Those are attached to each other with an old-fashioned modesty panel.
After MDF has been wet, it's no longer structurally sound, but I still use it for forms, templates, and router carving projects. I glue a few layers together and use the router to make dishes and trays, then cover with epoxy or polyurethane and paint. If it's so far gone that it's flaky and brittle, it makes some pretty hot fires, once it completely dries again.