Jinnah: His Successes, Failures and Role in History | Dr. Ishtiaq Ahmed
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- čas přidán 31. 01. 2023
- Mohammad Ali Jinnah has been both celebrated and reviled for his role in the Partition of India, and the controversies surrounding his actions have only increased since his death. Ishtiaq Ahmed places Jinnah’s actions under intense scrutiny to ascertain the Quaid-i-Azam’s successes and failures, and the meaning and significance of his legacy. Using a wealth of contemporary records and archival material, he traces Jinnah’s journey from an Indian nationalist to a Muslim communitarian, and then from a Muslim nationalist to, finally, Pakistan’s all-powerful head of state. How did the ambassador of Hindu Muslim unity become the inflexible votary of the two-nation theory? Did Jinnah envision Pakistan as a theocratic state? What was federalism? Asking these crucial questions his position on Mahatma Gandhi and against the backdrop of the turbulent struggle against British colonialism, Jinnah is a path-breaking examination of one of the most controversial figures of the twentieth century.
The discussion on “Jinnah: His Successes, Failures and Role in History” authored by Dr. Ishtiaq Ahmed is moderated by Dr. Pervez Hoodbhoy.
About the Author:
Ishtiaq Ahmed was born in Lahore on 24 February 1947. He received a PhD in Political Science from Stockholm University in 1986. He taught at Stockholm University from 1987 to 2007, and was then invited as Senior Research Fellow and Visiting Research Professor by the Institute of South Asian Studies, National University of Singapore, during 2007-2010. He is now Professor Emeritus of Political Science, Stockholm University and Honorary Senior Fellow, Institute of South Asian Studies, National University of Singapore. He has published extensively on Pakistani and South Asian politics. His research interests cover fields as diverse as political Islam, ethnicity and nationalism, human and minority rights, and indeed, partition studies.
#Pakistan #India #Politics #History #Jinnah #Partition
Lets not get carried away - these discussions are happening in a black hole in Pakistan. Nothing is getting out
Ha ha.
Haha I think they named it knowing that joke
Good one bro
The name of the channel must have been chosen for this very reason.
This speaker is also andh Zahadi Jahadi but gives build up that he is a moderate but mind full of zahadism.
Because he is speaking about Manu Smrithi. 99% of Hindus do not know about the book Manusmruthi
Pervez hoodboy tried to justify that Jinnah was liberal and secular but Ishtiyaq sir devastated his ideas. Hhhh. Beautiful slaps by Ishtiyaq ahmed.
It’s not the case at all. Public life may or may not have relevance to private life.
@@Makrania 他🇬🇾🍷😪🥫🥫🇮🇳
Jinnah was a Britishers Imran Khan...what a line.!! As an Indian I feel proud that Mahatma Gandhi ,Nehru,Abul Kalam Azzad,Sardar Vallabhabhai Patel are the genuine visionary leaders/legends of India...prof.Ishtiaq Ahmad sir is a genuine thinker,writer...I always want to listen to him... Fact based speech..
Gandhi was a rapist but u don't have the courage to accept that
And hopefully you are not now a Modi follower 😊
At that time, if Mr. Jinnah was a British / American man, then he should had got more and more of his demands and even Kashmir, too.
Moreover did he know it that Rajas of states had rights to join with Pak or India ? So if Pakistan had accepted Hyderabad's Raja's request, then Mr. Jinnah knew it very well about Kashmir's Raja's decision too, So all that story is just a fake story.
MAK Azad ???? He is the one who presided over corrupted Indian History Books.
then why thousands of muslims killed with every passing year in india even after having all of the leaders you named are genuine?
I am 70 years old, I have studied history Emergence of Pakistan from various books of different writers. Every writer has explained Jinnah's efforts toward making Pakistan. Their all information were based on various events but Dr Ishtiaq Ahmed's briefing in The Black Hole is justifiable to Let the people of Pakistan decide to solve their problems of Rooti, Kapra and Makan themselves but sorry to say this solution is not possible until every citizen of country would have equal rights in casting voting but in the distribution of National Wealth. I visited Gwader (6-13 Aug 2023) but sorry to say that viscous circulation of money among wealthy people with a little drop to poor. Lets effort (not pray to Allah) to make The Pakistan to prosper.
Well done Dr Hood. Thanks
After all its a country of feudal lords💀
This man is totally lying about Sikhs...Sikhs have no such character of getting naked...this idiot does not know when Sikhs we're winning battles ..they never disrespected Muslim women....this type of man has always changed the viewpoint of Sardars ...n now he is doing same..
Irony is these programs are mostly watched by Indians not by Pakistanis… Pakistanis doesn’t pay respect to these gems that they deserve… more power to such sane voices in pakistan..keep up good work professors 👍👍👍
He is a loar
Liar
also irony is , Indians appreciate secular and liberal Pakistani scholars and intellectuals while the same Indians constantly back the illiberal and communal dispensation of India and deride the secular and liberal Indians as anti nationals.
Because they are called librandus, anti-Islamic, leftists. That's why pakistani don't like these gems. Sounds familiar ???
@@prakashkify Pakistanis and many Indians thinks binary. That’s not how it works, everyone who supports BJP is not hindu extremist and Muslim haters.
We are rational, many who supporting BJP understand that Rahul Gandhi is an idiot. Whole Congress top tier never fought an election. Last 6 years of congress rule India was dormant. Look the work BJP did on digitalisation, infrastructure, reach to rural population during pandemic, improvement in ease of doing business, you talk as much as about Muslim oppression but there are no religious riots anymore which were rampant in congress rule.
That’s why we vote BJP and 2024 will not change that.
Lots of Respect From India 🇮🇳 To Professor Ishtiyaq Ahmed and Prof. Hoodbhoy 🇵🇰 For Organising and Initiating This CZcams Channel 🙂
This speaker is also andh Zahadi Jahadi but gives build up that he is a moderate but mind full of zahadism.
Because he is speaking about Manu Smrithi. 99% of Hindus do not know about the book Manusmruthi
I find Dr ishtiyaq Ahmed to be good.. although he might not be knowing anything about Hindus n india but knows about his subject jinnah very well...kudos to him fr that.... however I find Dr hoodbuoy to be communal who doesn't want to hear anything good about india
Monkey balancing is not something that we appreciate
@@aminaabdulla5854 , we know manusmsriti & the ill-effects of it as well
You are sure bjp modi rss supporter
I was born in Pakistan, and while I respect the views of leaders like Quaid-e-Azam, I believe in the importance of making my own decisions about what it means to be Pakistani. I am independent-minded and will not allow others to impose their beliefs on me.
To be a Pakistani was already written by thousands of people who gave their life for this very occasion, and it’s the best possible meaning to be a Pakistani.
_"I am independent minded and will not allow others to impose their beliefs on me"_
If you are a Muslim then that 👆 statement is already a lie.
_What_ to believe in is not a choice for a Muslim; it is already decided and prescribed for him/her in the holy Kitaab.
Don't believe me? Step out in Pakistan (or anywhere these days) and deny any single verse of that book. And see what happens to you.
@@ArmageddonIsHere it’s kinda stupid saying that cuz, people choose their religion themselves, and whatever awaited when they choose that path. So they are independent on making the decision in what they want to believe before they choose to follow a religion. And once you’re following it, you are still following what YOU chose for yourself, so it’s still an independent decision.
And no, do not start the argument about people who are forced to follow a religion, that’s not what we are talking about.
@@christa4172
"People choose their religion themselves". That's a lie too. Especially in most of the Muslim world.
The vast majority of people in the world, but most especially in Pakistan, are Muslim because they are born into it and having been born into it, stay with it. They don't, therefore, _choose_ their religion any more than they choose what family they're born into.
@@ArmageddonIsHere holy kitab is Gods book. there cannot anything holy more than that. you need the mind to do research and find the truth. till then keep telling others they are a lie
It is extremely rare that one comes across a discourse on history that is so balanced and dispassionate. Dr. Ishtiaq Ahmed stands out distinctively with his almost unshakeable grip on even the minutest details that had shaped Mr. Jinnah’s evolution as the political architect for an independent nation for the Muslims. And in this recapitulation and advocacy of Jinnah’s role, Dr. Ishtiaq has truthfully identified and very well explained the compromises that Jinnah had to make and which have been apparently labelled as contradictions to Jinnah’s sense of propriety.
Despite the aberrations, both perceived and real, and the historical coincidences and compulsions, Jinnah will forever be remembered by all Pakistanis who value the true worth of freedom. There is the element of martyrdom rooted in this allegiance, at least for those who had exchanged blood for independence. So I sincerely hope that Dr. Ishtiaq’s book “Jinnah: His Successes, Failures and Role in History” will have drawn the curtain over drawing-room discussions questioning the various facets of the genesis of Pakistan.
That being said, what matters more now is the way forward out of the political and social impasse that beleaguers this country. And this was also the concluding comment made by Dr. Ishtiaq. History is important and should be well known. But equally important is the fact that it channelizes the collective thought into positive action and not merely pander to the instinct for intellectual ruminations. Pakistan confronts problems of enormous dimensions. The greatest I believe is the lack of human capital, though nutrition and health services are equally critical. However, academic degrees are not all that matter. As a nation we first need to cultivate individualism - both the ability and moral courage to challenge tradition and dogma. For eons we have been hijacked by the guile of politicians and the obscurantism enforced from the pulpits. Unless we manage to extricate ourselves from forced allegiance, real progress will not follow. Just consider the time we dedicate to the useless 'jalsas' and congregations. Think about its opportunity cost. Who suffers and who benefits? I think it is not too difficult to answer!
Thanks for the opportunity!
This man is totally lying about Sikhs...Sikhs have no such character of getting naked...this idiot does not know when Sikhs we're winning battles ..they never disrespected Muslim women....this type of man has always changed the viewpoint of Sardars ...n now he is doing same.
One major point missed by all . The decisive elections of 1946 held under British India govt act 1935. As per this act only literate were eligible voters. 1951 census records our literacy as 18 % . Thus less then 18 % Indians were eligible voters in 1946.
I am going to buy and read all of Dr. Ishtiaq Ahmed’s books. Amazing, simply amazing
This speaker is also andh Zahadi Jahadi but gives build up that he is a moderate but mind full of zahadism.
Because he is speaking about Manu Smrithi. 99% of Hindus do not know about the book Manusmruthi
@@aminaabdulla5854 He sounds like a pragmatist to me. This is not his first interview I have seen, I have been following him for sometime and have looked up his recommendations and found it to check out well
@@vishnumohannair8791 I have bee following him too. But he never criticizes his religion which is the root cause for all the problem. Why did not Hindus, Sikhs, Jains, Bhudists, Chrstians ask for seperate country during Independance. Why do they have WAQF board in India and why do they only want to live in Kashmir. Under 370 in Kashmir, Pakstan people will have rights but not any Indians non musims.
@@vishnumohannair8791 He wants to have the relations between India and Pakistan become noraml. But does not address the real issue, just last month alone 10 innocent Hindus lost lives by the terrorists coing from acros the broder. One side they will kill our people and other side they want our cheaper goods and money and technology
@@aminaabdulla5854 If he criticizes his religion, he will be killed by extremists
Best line of the whole show for me “Forget about Kashmir and negative obsession with India, and look towards Pakistans future.”
“I think we were progressing very nicely until the surge of Islam came. And if you asked me for my observations, the other communities have easier integration - friends, inter-marriages and so on - than Muslims ... I would say, today, we can integrate all religions and races except Islam.” (Lee later retracted this comment.)
- Lee Kuan Yew: Hard Truths to Keep Singapore Going, 2011
1:35:55 what about india gives up Kashmir and becomes friend with Pakistan after??
@@Logicalsane - Why should IN give up Kashmir? PK's friendship is inconsequential for IN. However, it may be in PK's self-interest to make peace with IN for its own growth & development - if it is interested in those things.
@@LogicalsaneYou don't want Kashmir, you want Delhi. If Muslim majority was the logic, you would have retained Bangladesh and not committed atrocities in Balochistan.
Pakistan has no negative obsession with India but India has a negative obsession with Pakistan. Who forcibly occupied Hyderabad, Junagar and Kashmir and sponsored secession in East Pakistan. Only matter is India shall have to accept reality of Pakistan instead of spending billions for illegal occupation of Kashmir and Siachin Glacier.
Mr. Ishtiaq is a living legend. Love and hats off to him.
Kaun sa living legend ...harami har jagah jhooth bolta hai...This man is totally lying about Sikhs...Sikhs have no such character of getting naked...this idiot does not know when Sikhs we're winning battles ..they never disrespected Muslim women....this type of man has always changed the viewpoint of Sardars ...n now he is doing same..
Hats off to Dr. Ahmad for his research, knowledge, and capacity to hit with truth. He mentions things about Jinnah (not being secular)and Islam (not being democratic) and many other uncomfortable facts (like partition killings were started by the Pakistani side) to the extent that if it was said by any one else it would have lead to blasphemy murder on the meeting itself. The way he tells the story is fascinating and it reflects that not only has he gone very deep in to it historically but literally re lived it! Thank you all for this interesting talk.
please read about killing of Muslims in riots in different parts of your India a day after 1940 resolution was announced in Lahore before you say killings started in Pakistan. Use your IT experts to calculate and let you know that 1940 came before 1947. Also read about the reasons people in various parts of the then Hindustan converted to Islam. They did not convert to Islam just to get to know it. There is a long history of systematic, sustained, and coldblooded mistreatment of some segments of population by the hands of others in the subcontinent. Don't start clapping and cheering when someone says something negative about Pakistan.
Dr Ishtiaq Ahmed is truly a gem of Pakistan. Lots of Respect
You fool! He hates Modiji. Check his other videos
As a indian hindu, I am thankful to jinnah that he created pakistan. 🙏
@@mastqalandar8560 Qki itne jihadi yha hote to fir bharat aaj tk me Somalia bn jata
I appreciate and support formation of Pakistan. As an Indian/Hindu same for me.
S half boiled zinnah
But Gandhi Nehru acted as spoilers. Not insisting on exchange of population as suggested by Mountbatten. They tried to influence them to stay back.
Non muslims are enemies of Allah and can not be friends of Muslims, here is the reference czcams.com/video/VRVVjab2EVc/video.html
This is one of the most awesome bipartisan discussions on historical events. Such a gem of a Pakistani historian. Professor Ishtiaq is like an encyclopedia of information and quoting with sources is so impressive. I am going to read all his books and suggest to people.
No he is not a gem. He peddles to the vast Indian market knowing full well what will trawl him a huge catch in the Ganga sea. Academic research requires objectivity and questioning everything . Not taking anything as given and turning over accepted thinking. So let us address the basic question. What do you mean partition of India? There was no India beforee 1947. There was instead a British colony ran from London called the British Indian Raj 🇬🇧. This included present day Myanmar [Burma], Pakistan, Bangladesh, Indian Republic etc. Arguably the first partition was of Burma in 1938. In 1947 the colonial state was disolved and succesor of the Raj the Dominons of Pakistan and India came into existence.
Yes, please promote him in India. After all, RAW invested money on him. As a Pakistani, I can comfortably say that he offers Indian view of our Quaid e Azam. He is biased and dishonest to his own soil. To be honest, he doesn't represent a normal human mind. It is almost human nature to owe gratitude to the land you belong to. Most of the normal people do. Some go through their own experiences and end up being a minority in that sense. It is not difficult to find flaws of major or minor nature in every person and every ideology. Taking enemy's view because of their own experiences and making the minor imperfections the basis of denying the existence gratitude to one's homeland is like making a choice you were going to make anyhow and justifying it to suppress the inner call from your own conscience. In his case, he takes refuge behind the academics and apparently uses logic and historical "facts" to justify where he stands. I believe he was raised in a household where the timing or events surrounding migration of his family to Lahore and his own struggles for livelihood created space in him to take the minority view of Jinnah and Pakistan. Then during his stay in Europe, he was influenced by the Indian mindset that knows only how to hate. He seems to hold Jinnah responsible for the chaotic migration that happened. This may be convenient but is incorrect. Similarly, claiming that Jinnah got an independent country because he wanted to be the leader of it is entirely wrong. Considering the faltering health of Jinnah by the time Pakistan was given to him, he knew he did not have long time left to live. Yes, Jinnah never came out unambiguously on the question of secularism or Islamic laws in Pakistan. It was obvious that he wanted a middle ground to be taken. No sane person would struggle for a homeland for Muslims based on incompatibility with Hindu majority and impose secularism in the country just because he was personally a modern lawyer with Western education. Good thing is that he never advocated a theocratic state despite the desire of many people around him to make such a declaration. When I look at the plight of Indian Muslims every day after 1947, I have all the reason to say that Hindu mindset is not going to accept some of their people to even change their names to Muslim ones. I am a direct witness of being on dinner table with Hindus from India who would not eat any food that they thought I had unintentionally touched. My ancestors did not convert for fun. They must have made their decision based on mistreatment they faced as a pattern on some level. To be honest, Indians should try and open their minds and stop mistreatment of others instead of trying to prove that Pakistan was created by someone who had his own agenda. Finally, the discussion was entirely one-sided and the author got angry with the person when an uncomfortable question was asked. Having said all what I have said, I will be honest enough to admit that we in Pakistan have so far been unable to define our own nationhood with clarity. There is a host of reasons behind that and I don't justify the fact that we have not even started the process of nation building. I have my own theory on that. I will do some fact checking and post my view of the phenomenon in comments section of relevant CZcams videos I get to watch. By the way, RAW approaches and lures every single Pakistani of prominence if it sees a chance of denting the cause of Pakistan. Of course, influencing Pakistani people living outside Pakistan is a lot easier. For example, a politician Altaf Hussain speaks the language of RAW and once declared creation of Pakistan biggest mistake in the history of humankind. Unfortunately, the way our state responds is to just demonize him back home. We don't believe in creating a counter narrative. It is not that there is a lot of logic in Indian view of the creation of Pakistan. Indian view can get a lot of likes on the social media platforms for obvious reasons. But getting more clicks doesn't define what is historically accurate and what is a fabrication.
پاکستان سے بہت سے اختلافات ہیں یقینا پاکستان ویسا نہیں بن سکا جس کے لیے بھی یہ بنایا گیا تھا لیکن میرا خیال ہے کہ پاکستان کا مار زی وجود میں انا انتہائی ضروری اور ایک کٹھن مرحلہ تھا اور یہ گفتو گو اس کا مقصد صرف نئی نسل کا مورال ڈاؤن کرنا ہے ظاہر ہے اس کے پیچھے پاکستان مخالف گروہ ہی کام کر رہے ہیں
@@ss4904take burnoil on your ass 😂😂😂😂
@@ss4904paxtan is su per power sarr🤲🏿🥺
Dr Ishtiaque Ahmad is certainly one of the greatest and honest authors from this sub-continent, I have read his other book on Punjab’s partition too.
Great appreciation for Dr. Ishtiaq Ahmed for his exposition and clarity of thought. I would like to know more of his study on the first Law and Labour Minister of Pakistan, Jogendranath Mandal and the condition of his constituency in Pakistan and Bangladesh.
I would like his references for some claims he made:
1. The Hindu/Sikh refugee men would gesticulate naked to the Muslim women in India.
2. "Dono jagah aurato ki mandiya lagi". There are references for these markets selling women as sex-slaves in Lahore and Peshawar, both during Partition and the Kashmir War.
But, I would like to see reference for the same on this side of the border.
There is also some nuance I would like to bring here in the over-glorification of the Congress and the over-vilification of the Hindu Mahasabha or RSS. As it was repeatedly conceded that Jinnah might have brought about the partition of India but could not stop the massacres even if he wanted.
Why is the same logic not extended to the rest of India? How does the speaker assume that any party like the Congress could prevent the wholesale slaughter of Muslims in India? The horrors of the partition were mostly confined to Bengal and Punjab and some incidents in Bihar which was still under the Bengal Presidency. It is not due to the Congress that the Hindu population did not choose violence. It was the restraint due to their religious obligations.
In fact the bogey of Non-violence practiced by Congress was busted right after the assassination of Gandhi, where the Chitpavan Brahmin Community, Godse's community, was subjected to targeted mob violence and massacres in Bombay Presidency. Large swathes of these community still cannot return back to their ancestral home.
This was again replicated in the Anti-Sikh program organized by the Congress to avenge the killing of Indira Gandhi.
The capability of the Congress to inflict severe human tragedy is underestimated.
Also, the capability of Gandhi to deliberately overlook or justify the killings of Hindus for political convenience. is exemplary. The Moplah massacre, the Noakhali Massacre, Assassination of Rajpal, etc. are some of the few recorded instances where Gandhi's indifference to the suffering of the Hindus is abhorrent to say the least. This can be understood if you put yourselves in the shoes of a hindu. But, there is dank apathy for the pagan/kafir Hindu in the scholarship of the Colonialist, the Muslim, the Communist or the Christian.
Also, is it not surprising to the author that Gandhi, the Prophet of Non-violence, was the foremost conscription general of Indians for the British Colonial Army in at least the Anglo-Boer Wars, the First World War and the Second World War? Wars where the Indian adolescent boys did not know the enemy and never returned home. While he would stop any Indian independence movement for any small instance of violence.
🙏🏻🙏🏻👌👌👌👌
Very good arguments- he is 75 years old so in that orthodoxy Nehru and Gandhi are worshipped as seculars. Even we Indians didnt know about the moplah massacre or the killing of Maharashtrian brahmins after Gandhi’s death. All this knowledge dissemination is only possible because of the internet platforms and an interested audience. The old narrative also kept Hindus down and insecure. We only know about the frauds these two self proclaimed saviors of India were now.
Very well articulated. All of Gandhis fasts and most of his agitations were against fellow Hindus. In West Bengal, he does not have the respect that he has in the rest of the country.
This is probably the first time--or at any rate, it's exceedingly uncommon-- that such heterodox views about Jinnah have been uttered in public, and that too in Islamabad. Kudos to Dr Ishtiaq and to Dr Hoodbhoy for hosting him. Takes a lot of courage.
Hoodbhoy didn't like it
I sincerely hope & pray for the BLACK-HOPE to succeed in its endeavor.
..
So true. Well I am surprised at the audience, who are sitting like dummies ,without showing any reaction.
@@ajeebkahani007 perhaps the audience was stunned into silence with a view which is alien to them.
Dr.Ishtak Ahmad Sb. told 100% truthful story of partition of India .
Dr.Isthiaq Ahmed, a lot of respect and love for your work in this area. Thank you for having the courage to share the truth.
The tragedy of Gandhi’s life was that [the] members of his inner
council who followed him for more than twenty years with
unquestioned obedience, took the fatal steps leading to the partition of
India without his knowledge, not to speak of his consent…[Jinnah’s
fight] was…a fight not for the freedom of India…but for the freedom of
the Muslims from the tyrannical yoke of the Hindus, as he put it. He
won the fight; the cult of violence decided the issue. To what extent
Gandhi’s cult of non-violence may claim credit for the freedom of India
is a matter of opinion. But there is no doubt that the creation of
Pakistan was the triumph of violence-in its naked and most brutal
form-and of the leadership of Jinnah. Nobody can be reasonably sure
that India would have surely attained Independence…even without
Gandhi, but it is extremely doubtful whether there would have been a
Pakistan without Jinnah.
~ Great Indian historian Shri R.C. Majumdar
True AF
What is mean by "Shri"
@@azamtariq2559 Indian alternative of Mr. Or Janab
I doubt Jinnah could have gain much support amongst the Muslim politicians in Punjab if Sikandar Hayat Khan didn’t die in 1942. Sikandar’s grandson Tariq Ali has also think this would have been the case.
بہترین،بہت عمدہ،ڈاکٹر اشتیاق احمد دورء حاضر میں عقل پسندی،حریت اور انسان دوستی کا ستارہ ہیں اور ڈاکٹر پرویز ہود بھائی بھی۔اور مزے کی بات ہے جو شخیصت سوال کر رہی ہیں یہ وسیم الطاف ہیں یہ بھی بہت انسان دوست ہیں
Respect and gratitude to Prof.Dr. Ishtiaq Ahmed For speaking the bitter truth
Black Hole is perhaps the most inappropriate name for a platform from where ideas and perspectives should spread like ripples to the outermost periphery. Another stand out performance from Dr Ishtiaq saab Applaud his remarkable ability to not let his world view infulence the outcome of his research. Prof Hoodbhoy dexterously steered the discussion on a land mine-laden subject. Fervently wish to see the platform go from strength to strength.
I agree with Dr. Ahmed,
quality of university level teacher @1:40 is shocking.
Teachers and professors are the builders of modern nations, which are based on the quality of knowledge of the population.
Don't blame the teacher, for he is paid to teach within the framework of the "Pakistan Studies' in an environment where any deviation from the national narrative is considered heretic.
Dr Ishraq should not forget he is in Pakistan...when he is speaking this...not in Sweden...May God protect him from radicles.
Such a gem Prof. Ishtiaq. He is incredibly an exceptional scholar. His research should be included in our educational curriculum.
our education curriculum says India Occupied Kashir, Balochistan is part of Pakistan, India started all wars, etc. Do you think this level they can digest??
First Hindu to give his life for Pakistan was Mahatma Gandhi 🙏
Yes yes he also stood for Khialfat movement which was happening 3000 km away from India in turkey .... Gandhi was a Hindu..... Can you tell me sir being a hindu what did he do for hindus in India which were with him standing and hindu population was 85 percent.... Which hindu movement did he support .... So Mahatma being a hindu was an anti Hindu and a pro Islamist.....
And pro towards whom..... Towards muslims who broke india with Muslim league.....
Pakistan Gandhi ka bacha hai
Gandhi ne aapko Pakistan diya....
Pakistan ne hume 26/11 Mumbai attack, 2001 parliament attack, 2006 train blast, 1993 Mumbai serial blast.
Aaj Modi aur Shah aur Yogi ka india hai..... Gandhi aur nehru ka kamzor india nahi..... Jinhone Pakistan bananey diya
Just as first Muslim was Jinnah. Both fake.
@@deepasmitlenka7682 kamzor? lol pathankot me beizzati karwane k baad 🤣
@@deepasmitlenka7682 there's a book by Prakhar Srivastava who was a former DD broadcaster about Gandhi assassination and the circumstances surrounding it.
@@deepasmitlenka7682 everyone has the right to express their opinions…….😊
Great intellectual channel. Very smart people who are very logical thinkers. Such people are indeed required for the country. Unfortunately no one listens to smart people.
True , reality is the only narrative that will be going out and seeded into Pakistanis is the narrative of that professor of Pakistani studies who have half baked knowledge and radical mindset. So sigh
Sunna chahiye pakistanio ko Sun indian rahe hai.
@@saraparahardik4698 That is problem of Indians not pakistani or muslim
Hindu nature is to appreciate and get mad over less evil because they do not have no other option and they get to do negotiation over there non negotiable so they lose ever deal before deals
@@saraparahardik4698 🤣🤣🤣sahi kaha bhai
#Jinnah #Partition #History
This series "The Black Hole" is a blessing for the Truth Seekers. Those who attending in person are sure privileged, but those who will watch these videos in future would be blessed too. My humble gratitude to Dr Pervez Hoodbhoy and Dr Ishtiaq Ahmed and all panel speakers for this precious service.
This gentleman 1:11:11 among the audience is a man of great articulation. Well read, original thoughts & apt presentation! He deserves to be an on-stage guest speaker ! In one minute, he demolished Jinnah like no other❗️
He is waseem altaf. you can hear him on many paxtani youtuber channels like arzoo kazmi etc
Watching these two in one screen is mind-blowing
Why is Hoodhbhoy even here? He's an expert of what exactly?
@@DWAGON1818 he is the one who started this channel to spread awareness and knowledge to common Pakistani he has every right to be here on
@@syedahmed131 no wonder he names it Black hole. A black hole is something out of which no information comes out. This shows the mental capacity of Pervez.
He has no knowledge of this topic. Or of any topic for that matter.
@@DWAGON1818 what do you have against him he is one of the intellectuals in Pakistan one of the most respected. Pakistan has produced only a handful of intelligent people and we should not discourage them. Doctor abdus salam is the only scientist in our country who won a noble prize yet people discourage him very wrong.
@@syedahmed131 please point me to his achievements. The question is why you respect him and think of him as a person of knowledge. I'll wait for you to point me to his achievements.
Remember before you answer. That just becoming secular doesn't make one smart.
Dr. Ishtiaq Ahmed is a gem.
This speaker is also andh Zahadi Jahadi but gives build up that he is a moderate but mind full of zahadism.
Because he is speaking about Manu Smrithi. 99% of Hindus do not know about the book Manusmruthi
@@aminaabdulla5854 Read his books first. He is indeed a Gem. He correctly identifies Jinnah as a communalist. I like him more than Modiji to be honest with you.
@@jineshjillsgeorge yup, you guys like islamists but do not like to live under Taiiban. It is called hypocracy. He should identify his religion is the root cause of the problem not JINNAH. He is religion created millions of JINNAHs around the world and also created Taliban, TTP, Lashker, Boko Haram, PFI, MIM and list goes on. He is talkign about Manusmruthi that where he is showing his true colors.
@@aminaabdulla5854 I do believe is Islam is a religion of terror. But your opinion about Dr. Saab is not right.
@@jineshjillsgeorge Then why he is referring to Manusmrithi and Brahmans like typical jahadi or urbal naxals talk in India.
I read this book about three months ago ( over 800 pages) and liked it. I am surprised that Dr Ishtiaque Ahmad is not aware of his friendship with Churchill. It is now absolutely clear that India was partitioned because of the friendship between Jinnah and Churchill. He received huge favours from Churchill during his four years stay in England after Second World War.
Salute to both intellectuals & scholars 🇮🇳💐
Sadly we don't have many 'intellectuals' in Pakistan and certainly not Dr Ishtiaq who just appeases the huge Indian population to sell his books and make a name for himself. Anybody can become a star by peddling pro India narrative and he is good example of this.
Really thankful to Jinnah, wish he could have managed to take a few more Islamists!!
Respect and salute from india.
Rats on a rotting ships carcass
@@kafiruddinmulhiddeen2386 no need to address pakistan in this manner..
@@YM-wp6me you inferred that I was addressing Pakistan. What I was addressing is a thought…
Gandhiji followed Non Violence. We Indians following Non Violence. So world love Indians ❤
Brilliant! Enjoyed listening to this engaging discussion. The follow up questions were also very good!
I really like this channel lots. 👍👍👍 Very knowledgeable and informative.
They know nothing about us. They are rats on a sinking ship. Too little too late.
Non muslims are enemies of Allah and can not be friends of Muslims, here is the reference czcams.com/video/VRVVjab2EVc/video.html
This man is totally lying about Sikhs...Sikhs have no such character of getting naked...this idiot does not know when Sikhs we're winning battles ..they never disrespected Muslim women....this type of man has always changed the viewpoint of Sardars ...n now he is doing same.
Thank you very much, it was a wonderful 3 days discussion by you all great scholars. I felt privileged and honored to be listening to you all. Thank you once again.
You fool! He hates Modiji. Check his other videos
It is hard to believe that this conversation took place in Islamabad.
What a super discussion everybody should know.Respect to sir dr Istihak.
Thank you again thank again!!! Beautiful discussion so peoples know the facts about history what I learned in school.
I hope and pray yours message will be blessings to all peoples. God bless more and more your efforts.
So Dr. Ishtiaq Sir comes to his motherland Pakistan . Very nice discussion with factful historical and philosophical aspects . Thanks to him and Dr. Hoodbhoy and whole black hole team .
I kept my studies aside and watched the entire program. Thank you for an intellectual discussion. Love from India (Maharashtra) poona
शुभम, अभ्यास कर 😀😀
@@Gappasappa 😂😂😂
It's time to orde a beef burger ..Oh sorry you are in BJP India . No pun intended 😉.
Pune mhanayla shik shubhamya aadhi
@@vickyb7802 when we speak in English it's called poona..
Can’t thank enough, you two stalwarts are helping us to see the light as light and sift history through true analysis.
Feeling Sorry for Pashtoon, Sindhi and Baloch Hindus who became victim of Liaquats greed 😢😢
What a great discussion...a big big fan of these two intellectuals...may God bless these guy's.
“ No one died for Pakistan but Millions of innocents died because of Pakistan”
-Moeenuddin Ahmad Qureshi Former Prime Minister of Pakistan.
Millions continue to Die Sir !
( Directly or Indirectly!)
Average Indian.
That's correct. My family lost their ancestral home during partition. Family members were traumatized for a lifetime and my grandfather and granduncle lost their lives thanks to jinnah
@@sardarnikaur6258 And only Mohammad Ali Jinnah.
A greedy, self centred, egoistic, cruel person used religious card for personal ambition.
People blame Mahatma Gandhi, Pandit Nehru and others, but no only Jinnah and followers of cruel, illogical, inhuman faith have blood of millions on their hands.
And here in India these followers of most peaceful faith who could not follow Jinnah to their promised land are creating problems.
@@R.kandaswamy how are you forgot to mention these same aspects about Nehru Gandhi and other leaders who were of partition
Lovely discussion.. what a great crowd and speaker/host.
Frm Pak🕊Dr Ishtiq Ahmed is fair & upright…a good human being. Wish he was invited by Pak TV channels & his enlightened views would have been reached masses…wish.
Man as an Indian this is quickly becoming my favorite Pakistan based discussion platform. Trust the genius Nuclear scientist to bring forth good discussion from a country severely lacking in it.
But what breaks my heart is that they are still debating the foundation of their state and reason for existence wheere we have already economically overtaken the colonizers and the reason Pakistanis hate the current government for this as we don't have any hangups from the past but racing to a brighter future
@@anikeshmidya4882 who gives a two fuks about what pakis think about our government and what a mess Pakistan is in..if it was up to me I would have banned the Indian television showing Pakistan news.. it's a disgrace to compare them to us.. we should aim higher it's not 1947 anymore.. this false romanticization must end
@Football-Pundit lol 😆 your knowledge on theology is zero , read why state vs church happened idiot , western or European church did some of the worst things to others, the brutality which they did can't be compared to anything, infact Christian brutality was way worst then even islamist jihad of spreading Islam atleast in how they tortured, first read then talk ,
yes caste based did was done and we have moved on and reformed it ,I'm from lower caste but it doesn't mean that all brahmin discriminated with lower caste ,
@Football-Pundit if there is no documentation then how did you reach your imagined conclusion btw ????
idiot how can you conclude a point without proof 🙄 🤔
iv read dalit literature including from my own local village and from nation dalit leaders , you are just reactionary person with no substance without reading, read books get knowledge ,if you want dalit and lower-caste literature I can provide some recommendations on books ,
first read then talk instead of making your view on any topic , in India we didn't have brutality like Europe or Arab at all we had caste based discrimination in our past ,not mass level killings like in west
@@RealRandomVideos Bro , IT'S pakistan. The fact that they aren't debating if a goat farting towards west is blasphemy or not is already a HUGE leap forward.
What you're talking about is a complex historo-cultural topic for us Indians to sort among ourselves.
It is such a pleasure to listen to Dr Ishtiaq, thank you for sharing your wisdom to us. I hope that we will learn from it.
Why is Hoodhbhoy even here? He's an expert of what exactly?
That is a valid question and what about his motives and alignments with the enemies of Pakistan? @@DWAGON1818
After hearing this , I can only say that it is "Twice Told Tale" explained by a Genius scholar .Everyone must hear it because if a problem is highlighted by Sir Ishtiaq ahmed than there must be solution for it . he has identified the causes, reasons with evidence we must try to reach any good conclusion .Pakistan Zindabad !
@1:09:32: Good set of questions. Thanks ma`am for asking them. Wish this was answered properly.
Indirectly Jinnah did a favour to India by creating a buffer zone between India and Afghanistan. We couldn't afford taliban as our immediate neighbours but then India would not make taliban in the first place like pk did. Although I lament the bloodshed of partition but the partition had been a blessing in disguise for India.
If india was Afghans neighbour, there wouldn't have been the Taliban in the first place.
What an awesome discussion! Loved it ❤
Gaddar...tu bhi gaddar..
Absolutely correct
Non muslims are enemies of Allah and can not be friends of Muslims, here is the reference czcams.com/video/VRVVjab2EVc/video.html
@@explorerfoxy I don’t even want to see this video and I don’t care… I told you all religions are man made and are out dated in this modern world….I have Hindu friends Christian friends Jewish friends Parsi friends atheist etc etc…..🙏
@@pagan-540 P for Pagan
P for Pajeeet
Thank you for speaking the truth. Amazing analysis Dr Ahmed.
Great platform.Salute to erudite Dr Ishtiyaq Ahmed...I would buy all his books..
Muslim population in India in 1947 = 3 crore.
Muslim population in Uttar Pradesh in 2023 = 5 crore.
Beautiful discussion.. Great work by Dr. Ishtiaq Ahmed and Dr. Pervez Hoodboy.
Excellent discussion about Jinnah. Thank you all.
I found the discussion very interesting. In particular, from 41:00 - 49:50 where they talk about Jinnah's relationship with landowning feudal lords who were essentially his clients and he was their lawyer. Let's remember Jinnah was a staunch capitalist and he died extremely wealthy with investments not just in Pakistan but in India as well. Jinnah actually left Muslim League in 1930 but the League offered him a lucrative position of 'Founder of The Nation' which had the potential to make him a historically important figure and a very wealthy man. Jinnah's interest was power. He was not religious. He did not have any real family ties either. His clients' who were the feudal landowners wanted to retain power with land ownership. Even today in Pakistan the concept of 'might is right' prevails where groups with more power and wealth rule over others. Thus Pakistan in my humble opinion was not created for any ideological reason. The ideological narrative was more a façade than a reality. It was actually created to protect wealthy and powerful landowners and their politically connected families.
After 75 years we have started finding that our founding fathers, Jinnah, Nehru and Gandhi had feet of clay. Instead of leading people by example educating them about progress of science and it's importance, our erstwhile leaders emphasised the importance of religion and not unity in diversity.
If you heard the discussion keenly, you wouldn't be putting all 3 in one basket.
If you had a brain you would know that Dharma is Not Religion. And Nehru knew nothing about hindu dharma. He was a brown sahib.
Why are you including Gandhiji and Nehru in this? They formed a secular democratic state which is one of the world’s leading economies today.
@@minerjopeace5915 exactly. The person either lacks in the intellect to grasp what was being said or just a pure hater.
@@kanaka7552 precisely worded.
Lots of Love and respect form Taiwanese Indian diaspora.
How many year sir?
Beautiful country Oman. Dhow building, Sur, the turtle reserve all very interesting. Your drone shots captured the beauty of the place. Now that i have followed you so long, its good to see you are recognised wherever you go. For the turtles, i am glad they use infrared lights so not to disturb them. Oman impressive work providing the infrastructure of good road, picturesque free parking places, broad pedestrian footpaths. Thank you again, Abrar, for giving us this video.
Brilliant research, analysis and discussion. Learned so much about that historical time.
May Allah bless Ghandi for his humanity
Gandhi hota hai.
And grant him 72 of ur begairat behaya raped and converted musalmina ammi khala behen for there daily halala just as promised by ur anguthachaap madrassa chap Nabi Muhammad, ameen inshallah mashallah 😂😂😂
Allah proved him 72 hoor for saving millions of Muslims and responsible for the deaths of millions of kaffirs.
Huge respect for Ishtiaq Sb! I am going to read this book now
Excellent. I am a bengali from India originally my forefather from east bengal. I respect opinion of Dr Ahmed as it is researched based book and his opinion. Let us proceed for peace, enoughh of violence we have seen in the past. Stop that hatred. Thanks to blackhole for organising this discussion.
I don't agree with the negativity in this talk. Yet, I wholeheartedly agree with the desire of peaceful coexistence you have mentioned. Empty sloganeering like India was partitioned by the foreigners or more Pakistan-like countries will emerge needs to be given up. The welcome developments are that India of today will not be colonized in the foreseeable future and the fact that part of subcontinent Muslims have a homeland of their own are positive enough to build on. I wish more people had views like yours. If that was the case, India would not have worked night and day to dismember Pakistan in 1971 and there were no wars, nor such high defense spending. I would say that Pakistani people bear more goodwill about peace than their Indian counterparts. This is not a big virtue because someone has to be more honest than the other in this mindless rivalry. So, we are just lucky to be on the right side of honesty.
My respect for Gandhi and Nehru increased even more.
In 1946 when Gandhi came to Calcutta to pacify the city and stop the riots, the Muslim League goons left a dead cow in front of the house where he was staying. Within a day or two Suhrawardy came and asked for forgiveness from Gandhi. And eventually he did a rally with both the communities united. Muslims and Hindus returned back to their old neighbourhoods in Kolkata and in post 1947 Muslim League became a history in the city. As long as the Minar e Pakistan stands, Pakistanis would continue to disrespect and ignore the contributions of Gandhi, Nehru, Patel, Azad, Bacha Khan, Subhash Chandra Bose, Lajpat Rai and many others. People who actually fought and sacrificed for the freedom of the subcontinent. They did not engage in cynical politics playing with the blood of the people like Mr Jinnah.
@@sena3941 bhai mai chattisgarhi hu pichle 3gen meri chattisgarhi hai , wo kon tha ,kya tha game bhi nahi malum but mai mafi mang raha hu aap se 🙏🙏 Jo mo ya mera koi ansestor nahi kiya hai. Ya sari baato ko bhul , individual action can't form. Unite reparcussion. So plzz socho bhai
The day one I said that pakistan was created by the British establishment and Jinnah was one of the British establishment's puppit
Gandhi was a rapist :) nehru was an extremist
Actually, on the contrary, respect for both Gandhi and Nehru has declined tremendously in India over the last few years, and rightly so.
Excellent debate and well explained admire the the positive thinking and analysis of all concerned admire your education and experience T/Y
What a scholarly discussion on Jinnah, full of research and data by Dr. Ishtiaq Ahmed and active participation from Dr. Hoodbhoy and a very connected audience. I don't think I have seen/heard such an open discussion on opposing points or views, without it regressing into a shouting match and name calling.
Bravo to The Black Hole forum and it's organizers.
"Making pakistan is an experiment and the experiment can also fail" Maulana Azad
Thank you so much Mr Dr Ishtaq Ahmed sir to tell pakistani people a real history of India's partition 👍💐💐
very brain storming commentary of dr. ishtiaq ,loved to hear such a comprehensive and candid view
Listening counter perspective of what we have been taught throughout our educational system is nothing but a treat to ears. Glad to be on this platform
A very absorbing and intersects interaction. It’s a great learning and gives a perspective of those times.
I have a feeling, the partition of India has been a blessing in disguise for modern India. Muslims would have never lived peacefully just as they create trouble with whatever is leftover in India because of their flawed vision and outlook. When I talk about Muslims it’s Muslims of Indian origin who reside in the whole of South Asia. The world has moved on but these folks are stuck in a flawed mindset and come up with idiotic argument to keep their vision up on any matter social, cultural, political or economic.
Thank you Mr Jinnah 🙏🏼
An 100% accurate post !
What a fantastic discussion
Khush Rahain ALLAH aapko Istiqamat atta farmain Haq kay raastay pay chalnay walay kabhi na darain hain na daraingay..
Excellent analaysis 👍
I live in kolkata. Time is 3.13am. For last few hours i was mesmerized by your story telling. I would have been very happy if it went a bit longer. On both sides of border we are trying to change the our history and facts so that ruling government can justify their acts and ideology. Our young generation are being taught that manipulated history. You are one of the few story tellers who can teach us right history based on facts. Just continue to do this kind of podcasts which enlightens the people.
Save Bengal babu....
Happy to know that such open discussion can be held in Pakistan today.
Yaar I am atheist. Abhi mai na hindu hu na muslim, but Indian hu. Abhi some people say that I can be an atheist and still be a Hindu as part of nirakar hinduism since you dont have to worry about the god but try to make sure to stack up good karma and follow you duty as a member of society as best and lead a good life as you please without hurting anyone. That is the closest religious philosophy I have but I dont even care about that and do as I please.
I bash both Hindus and Muslims and even atheists when they do illogical stuff. Thankfully being in India I do not fear it. I have discussed atheism with my Christian teachers, muslim friends and Hindu family. We still live together and they dont care. We still celebrate Diwali and Eid. that is the beauty of India. Are there clashes, ofc, when there are 1.5 billion people. Can we be better yes. Are we trying everyday, we are. Thats what matters.
Its Charvaka philosophy
@@indiarocks5731 Ah thanks. The more you know the better.
My panditji was wrong then.
@@normalhuman6260 no , there are many philosophy which include atheistism.....ajivika philosophy even janism is also atheist .
We had a culture of debate and discussion and different branch came out ...end of the day it doesn't really matter. Kisne dekha
Ask ten Muslims and ten Hindus what do they think about atheism.
Difference will be clear.
@@indiarocks5731 Hahaha. True that. The reason I came out of the whole religion thing was so I can think independently and not have to associate with rules and labels of any sect. I try to think as rationally I can and as you said doesn't really matter.
Excellent Historical information 👏👍👌
It’s a wonderful lecture and talk.
Very informative and insightful
Sir you are a real political scientist because when you are doing dissection of history you are doing it without any emotion only based on logic that's all.
Lucky that we still have these intellectuals to talk and we can be edify from them.God bless you both 🙏
Both Dr's are trying to heal the old wounds.....
God bless Dr Ishtiak & interviewer Dr......
Dr I Ahmed is a intellectual gem.. His deep knowledge and research is evident. I wish there was a person of his calibre who could dispel the fake narrative around Nehru and his actions during the partition period and later as PM of India, just as he has helped to dislodge the fake narrative about true intentions of Jinah..
How many other such ‘gems’ have you heard or read?
Probably none!
This is perhaps the first time you have seen / heard such discussion.
It is more your ignorance than Ishtiaq Ahmed’s brilliance that makes him a gem for you.
Dr Purushottam agrawal has done such work in India
Excellent platform for the debaters and listeners across Pakistan!
Always a pleasure to be the part of it as a listener.
This man is totally lying about Sikhs...Sikhs have no such character of getting naked...this idiot does not know when Sikhs we're winning battles ..they never disrespected Muslim women....this type of man has always changed the viewpoint of Sardars ...n now he is doing same.
Prof Ishtaiq Ahmed. Extraordinary
A very very thoughtful discussion.
Very very informative session Well done to both the Drs🎉
@1:40:00 to the gentleman saying Muslims in India are not in a good situation as predicted by Jinnah, please allow me to present my views…. While India has a lot to improve upon, there is no opression or discrimination. People may have biases, but that’s true for any group of people anywhere in the world. Muslims are prospering In India, they have a very loud political voice and will not allow or accept injustice, rightly so. Can Pakistan say the same thing about it’s minorities ?
Pakistanis will never agree to see the prosperity of Muslims in India not due to misconceptions but willingly as it defeats the purpose of their existence. India has had not one but several Muslim presidents,generals and billionaires Minorities have been heads of the Armed Forces several times can any single Pakistani Muslim accept their Armed Forces to be lead by a Kaffir this shows the level of maturity of 2 societies and yes it's because of the religious views not just because of 1 political leader
Political voice? You mean loud, overpowering noise?
no they can't dude ,they have not seen qwaisi speeches I guess how he threatens hindus inside india In day light
@@rakeshbarman3486 why they don't know about owaisi and his rant? They know very well..they follow him..they enjoy it
wo Jahil Madarsachap hai Unse Kya Umeed Karna
Thank you for bringing this in public...
Dr.Ishtiaq Ahmed is legend
یہ ایک بہترین دسکشن تھی جو اس سے پہلے کبھی سننے میں نہیں اآئی ۔ اگر پاکستان کو صیح راسے پر چڑھانا ہے تو سچ ک اپنانا ہو گا ۔ ابھی تک جھوٹ اورجھوٹے نظریے پر چلنے کیوجہ سے پاکستان کی سمت غلط سمت میں طے کی گئی ۔۔ایسے لوگ ہی پاکستان کو قومی ریاست بنانے میں اصل کردار ادا کر سکتے ہیں۔۔
Hoodbhoy given a free tuition.
Mr. Ahmed has thoroughly studied the subject & then authored.