💯💯💯 it was definitely the judges fault. This happens a lot where people who work behind the scenes mess up and the person who's more visual suffers the consequences
This video completely missed the details as to why Hamm absolutely won the gold anyway! Because the judges made MULTIPLE errors, the corrected score of Yang would have been lower, not higher, adding the 0.1 in this video but DEDUCTING 0.2 for Yang's 4th pause ("hang"). It never made sense that so much would be made of one judging error but not of the second error. The net result is that Hamm wins the gold.
I'm glad someone else knows this! Paul didn't win by default or because of a technicality. He is the true champion and would have won anyway. The one who was harmed by it all was Ioan Scicu of Romania who would have won bronze over Yang had Yang's fourth hold been identified during his performance. The judges from the CAS hearing even said (I have a copy of the transcript) that it was Yang himself who benefited from the judges' errors that night. Needless to day, the Koreans were more than a little embarrassed by it all.
Simple, both Gymnasts get the Gold medal similar to Salt Lake Olympic controversy. Hamm knew the score he needed BEFORE he did his final routine ... no one knows what would be the impact if he knew he needed a higher score to win. Some athletes will make small difficulty upgrades if needed to win the match.
This would be the best solution. Thing is, the Salt Lake controversy was clearly a case of sabotage by one of the judges. The skaters were victims of deliberate match-fixing(under the current code of points, the Russian pair would've won despite the step out on one of the jumps. Their level of difficulty and component scores were quite a bit higher than the Canadians...yes, I'm still salty about it😅) In this case however ; the judges made an 'honest mistake' and there are rules in place to rectify the mistake within a timely fashion. It's kinda like when a tennisplayer neglects to challenge a line call and then demands for the point to be awarded after they lose the match . The umpire would be like:"I didn't see it but you could have challenged the call. You didn't. Whattya want me to do?" Having said that, I would be more magnanimous than Paul was. It would not sit right with me to win this way. On the other hand I can also understand it from a gymnast pov: you are there to compete. It should not be up to you to do the judges job. I bet gymnasts get frustrated when mistakes made by judges become a deciding factor.
I wish Ian would have posted the whole story here. The fourth hang. How the competitors may have made slight adjustments to their routines based on their respective scores. There's a whole butterfly effect here...Paul deserves a better breakdown than this :59s clip.
Agreed. I generally enjoy Ian's content, but even if he didn't put forth his own opinion, he should've laid out all the arguments for and against each competitor's performance and scoring.
Yeah...I had to read the comment section to get the full story. I don't like selective reporting. It's click baitey. First time I commented on this channel. I won't follow it anymore. I wish the uploader all the best but, I don't like it when people omit information to form a false narrative and then ask for opinions in the comments' section. That's some Fox News type o' crap. It only makes people more misinformed. Instead of it being informative and educational.
@@roddo1955it’s not the first time Ian has made a huge mistake in his gymnastics video. He also reposted and perpetuated the Olga Korbut flip “death loop” bullshit about it only being performed once by her in 1972 and being immediately banned due to danger when in reality it was performed and DOCUMENTED multiple times up until the mid 80’s when standing on the high bar became banned in the COP. He’s presenting himself as sort of an experienced source on all things gymnastics but he makes a lot of small mistakes (calling a sheep jump a ring jump in his latest vid) and big mistakes because he just pumps out content with no regard.
Yes, this definitely isn't the whole story. Paul didn't win on a technicality or by default. He's the rightful winner. Upon watching a replay of Yang's parallel bars routine, the officials found he had a fourth hold which the judges missed that night and for which Yang did not receive his mandatory 0.2 deduction. That not only would have negated the 0.1 in start value restored to him, but the additional 0.1 deduction would have left him OFF the podium. The CAS officials said it was Yang himself who benefited from the judges' errors that night and not Paul. I have a copy of the CAS ruling. It was Iaon Scicu of Romania who was harmed, not Yang, because if Yang had been scored correctly, Scicu would have won bronze instead of Yang.
I had forgotten about this, but I was watching this with my mother and her father my grandfather who are both experienced competitive gymnasts. My grandfather pointed out that Yang did four hangs so we were all surprised that there was any controversy to start with other than his fuzzy dismount. Even without these details he just did not get the job done.
I don't understand how this is more controversial than the vault being at the wrong height for the woman 's AA in 2000. There's video on CZcams of Khorkina loosing her shit about it at the time and a bunch of gymnasts could've been seriously injured. Or how about in 1996 when a bunch of adults pressured Kerri Strug into doing an unnecessary vault on a wrecked ankle, that forced her to retire from the rest of the competition and ended her career, as a result. She qualified for AA and event finals, but never got to do any of it because the national team coaches didn't care who they had to put thru a meat grinder to get team gold.
@@ArtGirl82nobody said it was more or less controversial than the height controversy in the WAG competition. Or Kerri Strug injuring her ankle. You brought up a different situation and used false equivalency and whattaboutism to make a point that I'm not seeing. You could have just made a comparison and give that as an example. But neeeuwe....you just have to come in with a 'but you know what is worse?'. What is your point? Khorkina? Strug and her ankle in 1996? This video is not about why you don't understand that something is more controversial than two other things. What does not issuing a protest have to do with Kerri having to perform on a vault whilst injured....in 1996? Whattaboutism much? Or did you just want a reason to discuss WAG? Plenty of videos you can choose from. But this wasn't the one.
In the CAS hearing after the Olympics, the officials of the court did see in a video repaly Yang's fourth hold that the judges missed that night and for which he received no deduction. As such, even if Yang had received the 0.1 extra for his starting value, the fourth hold comes with a mandatory 0.2 deduction. That means even if Yang had been restored the 0.1 to his starting value, the mandatory deduction for the fourth hold not only would have cancelled that 0.1 out, he would have lost an ADDITIONAL 0.1, leaving him OFF the podium. The court officials said it was Yang himself that benefited from the judges' errors that night and not Paul. Paul would have won anyway. It was Ioan Scicu who lost out because had Yang been scored properly, Scicu would have won bronze, not Yang. The Korean officials were quite embarrassed by the whole thing. Paul is the rightful winner, and he didn't win by default or because of a technicality.
Coaches and gymnasts themselves always check/add up their own points at the end of the routine to make sure they’re given the credit they think they deserve. Kinda baffling how NO ONE checked his start value because a 9.9 is VERY different from a 10.0. Paul got the gold fair and square because Yang and his coaches didn’t submit an inquiry in time as per the rules that are clearly stated. Very unfortunate, yes, but at the end of the day it was their own fault.
@Fdopka disagree. There is shared blame here. I'm a professional engineer responsible for my work, but also for catching problems with how my work is perceived in a timely fashion. If I provide a good design, and the client doesn't like it because they misinterpreted it, and I ignore their response, two parties have made mistakes. The rules seem fair to me... they have built-in error checking with a generous time limit the team allowed to expire. It's a shame but it's not fair to lay this 100% on the judges
@Fdopka Do you also think that we should abolish instant replays in sports and ban coaches from challenging calls? Do you think that would make sports fairer? Do you think that judging gymnastics is so easy and that it is reasonable to expect perfection? That they should remove the rule allowing teams to double-check the results?
The Romanian team also complained that Hamm's was over scored, leading to even more controversy, which put more preasure on how exactly the scoring system actually works. That's probably why in 2006 the scoring system were completely overhauled.
The judges didn't make any error, the Korean coaches and people who had to submit something to the judges were the ones who made an error because they didn't submit it in time, don't know why Paul is getting negatives from a mistake from people who live across the world
Im glad to have read the comment section. You left out some crucial details and you misrepresented the situation. From what I understand, the korean athlete had deductions that weren't counted. I'm confused, now. Give the full story instead of a biased synopsis.
it was a terrible final, with Hamm with a terrible fall on vault, and the mistake on the koreans, the best gymnast whod eserved gold was romanian SUCIU, anyway it's not Paul Hamm's fault if judges and korean coaches can't do their work, the problem were judges and the coaches who din't ask inquiry in time, as they dinn't know the rules
You also have to take into account sportsmanship. Good sportsmanship would dictact that Yang Tae Young would have taken gold, and Paul Hamm would have no problem giving it to him.
That South Korean committed some errors at least one of which wasn’t properly deducted so he still would have lost - so he should not have been the Olympic champion in 2004!!!
He made errors. He didn't 'commit' errors. Its not a criminal investigation. You should work for Fox News...they love to word things in a certain way to change the narrative.😅
This is very interesting. For kinesiology purposes, can you please make another video explaining the exact differences between the 2 moves side by side? I would love to see with better explanation. (I'm sure others would too.) @IanGunther
Set the speed to 0.25x and watch their position at the bottom of the swing. Yang's arms are extended for a giant swing (tucked handstand position). The second one swings through closed shoulders.
The judges made a second, larger mistake, that is not covered in this video. If the silver routine had been judged accurately, he would not have placed at all. Hamm won the gold, even if the coaches had submitted for review, because there was a 4th hang when only 3 were allowed. Maybe the coaches didn't catch it, or maybe they did and that's why they didn't petition before the event was over🤷 If it had been reviewed, more points would have been lost due to the 4th hang, than correcting the points for the maneuver would have given.... leading to not placing at all. I don't remember which country technically should have won 3rd, but due to the faulty judging, they were officially 4th and no medal....
Paul deserves the medal because the judges made multiple mistakes in judging his routine, however, on top of that, the coaches all know the rules and although it's a technicality, it is within their ability to do something about that within the given timeframe. If they had requested the judges look at it again, they would have lost a podium spot though, so they didn't. Taking away the medal from a man who is also very deserving of it later on, is all kinds of disrespectful - I think all the blame is shared between the judges and Yang's coaches for the mistaken calculations and not getting it petitioned in time - neither of the athletes is to blame, but both of them suffered for it - that's what annoys me most - I think Paul shouldn't have been asked to return his medal, that was really rude - he was legally the winner and in my opinion rightfully so. Teams often don't petition for the judges to look at their scoring again, and less fortunate athletes often don't have the means to do so, but in the case of the Olympics, it wasn't a case of a missing budget for the team, just negligence on the coaches side to respond to in a timely manner or perhaps a strategic move, so the prior mistake wasn't looked into, and he got a position on the podium. Because unlike for celebrities, all press, isn't good press for athletes. Bad press, really is bad press, and in Paul's case caused significant damage. That's my opinion on this topic.
I was a high level synchronized swimmer for years and trust me I understand the horrors of judged sports. It’s 100% subjective and UNFAIR. Even though I was the one winning medals after my first year as I had a natural ability and caught on luckily extremely fast for some reason unknown to me other then pure genetic luck and drive. Anyway I’m saying that because I’m coming from the stand point of the first and second ribbon winner not second to last place to give perspective. I was just in the lower half until I won a nation award for excellence then suddenly the very next day of competition I somehow started my winning of first place and on very rare occasion third. All because the judges suddenly knew who I was at that point from the national recognition. Our inquiries up until that point trying to figure out why I was scoring so low were all met with ‘she’s new and needs to our in her time to learn and build skills’ when really it had nothing to do with that because I apparently had the skills for first place the next day after the award. It still makes me angry. Until these sports are no longer judged by humans there will NEVER be a fare scored event. In saying that, he got the medal, the other coach messed up by not filing in time and so the rules clearly state the winner stands. Or else people could go back years later and call for medals to be changed and thing could get out of hand very quickly. Judging errors happen regularly, on the daily. It’s something we all get used to and it sucks when the stakes are so high. But it also has to do with the experience of that judge as well as position of view and what they viewed. No human is perfect. Specially in judged sports. Hard pill to swallow but that’s the truth. The winner announced at the event stands. ❤
Can someone explain to me the difference between the two confused moves for the Korean? The moves shown here look exactly alike to my unprofessional eye.
I am new to intricacies of gymnastics. I am not sure of the difference in 00:28 and 00:31. What would make one routine of lesser point that the other routine? 😅🤔😅
Depends on your point of view. In some sports, if the judges or referees make an error, that’s just part of the game. The Olympics provided for a challenge and review, but the coach missed the opportunity. I think Paul should keep the gold.
The rules clearly stated the complaint needs to be made before it ended. So the coach dropped the ball after the judges did. It’s not Hamm’s fault at all, the FIG president was inappropriate to request for his medal.
All sports have moments of controversy due to human error, and it is impossible to sort out how getting it correct the first time would have influenced the outcome on the day. People get in their heads and mess up for all kinds of reasons, and they make decisions based on the information in front of them. If Yang got the correct score on P-bars, maybe he would've substituted in an easier skill on high bar. Maybe Paul wouldn't have had as great of a high bar routine if he didn't think he had a chance with that difference. Maybe the judges for the rest of the night would've subconsciously made different execution score marks (No they aren't SUPPOSED to be influenced by the scores, but come on...we all know it's pretty much impossible not to be in some way). It's literally impossible to know how it would've played out had it been scored properly. Yang and his coaches had a chance to catch and challenge the error during the meet, and they missed that chance. The judges should've got it right the first time, and they didn't. Neither one of those things are Paul's fault, and all he did on that day is pick himself up (off of the vault judges' table - lol) put one foot in front of the other and make one of the most epic comebacks and iconic sports moment I've ever seen. He had no power to change the official results, and the FIG putting their F up on Paul to "fix" by pressuring him to symbolically concede by giving up his medal is not the answer either. There was no fair way to correct it after the fact. Someone would've been screwed to some degree no matter what.
Paul deserves the medal. Just like in football when a referee doesn't see a player is over the goal line so he doesn't give the points for a touchdown. If the coach doesn't dispute that call, that's it. They don't get the points. Paul Hamm didn't cheat, the judge made a mistake. Tae Young's coach didn't dispute it, so he doesn't get the medal. Bummer deal, but that's the way it goes. Life isn't perfect, therefore it's not always completely fair either.
rather than say: "this move for this move" - it'd be nice if you called the moves by their skills: "From handstand, giant swing into a double back toss to upper arms" vs an "above bar double back toss to upper arms."
😂 I have heard that an enquiry costs money. But do you still have to pay if it turns out that you were right? 'Oh man, I ran out of cash! Does anyone have a 100 bucks I can borrow?'😂
In reading many of the comments from those experienced in judging gymnastics and the average viewer, I agree with never taking away an awarded medal or penalizing an athlete for honest competition and technicalities not their fault (revoking endorsements, etc). A second gold medal should only be awarded if thoroughly independent review warrants. The home community or school of the athlete might choose the bestow upon the athlete an additional honor in consolation…but in keeping with the spirit of the Games.
The judges didn't just miss the higher value maneuver, they also missed a 4th hang (pause, or rest) which would have deducted more than what he lost from the first mistake. If the coaches had submitted for review, then he would not have even placed and Hamm still would have kept the gold.
Yang should have been penalized by 0.2 becuased of an extra jump not allowed which negates his 0.1 under value ... point is the judges made multiple errors... Hamm & Yang should have been given the Gold.
Didn't Paul also receive an impossible score on Vault because the judges missed a downgrade? Either way Yang deserved the medal. Stripping Paul of his is extremely harsh after the fact. If it's a missed inquiry that's on the coaches but if it's a judging error then it should be rectified.
Yang should have been penalized by 0.2 because he made an additional jump not permitted but judges missed that deduction. Sooo if you net with a +0.1 under value... it's a net benefit by 0.1 hence, his final score was still less than Hamm ...love Korea though❤
That’s bs! It wasn’t Paul’s fault at all. It’s not as if he consider w the judges so he could unfairly win! If it was the athletes job to also be in charge of the scoring, then what’s the point?! How awful Paul suffered consequences from others’ mistakes!
Sort of, the Korean made one additional jump than allowed which should have resulted in a 0.2 deduction but judges missed that but his final routine should have had a higher start value of 0.1 ..sooo netting both, the Korean gymnast benefited by 0.1 due to multiple judging errors
Paul won fair and square. Yang was over scored on his PB routine and had they reviewed the scores with a challenge, Yang would have actually dropped off the podium altogether. I love S Korea but in this instance they tried to pull dirty trick because they were so close to winning and of course it hurt but then they went out of their way to tarnish Paul’s reputation when they knew full well that Yang had been over scored himself and that they were not being fully honest to the public when they made all their arguments to the media. This was exacerbated by the FIG president making an inappropriate and what should have been a terminable offense of asking Hamm to just give his medal to Yang even though the results were official and rightly so with Hamm as the winner just because the FIG president wanted to appease the S Koreans regardless of the actual lack of honesty and merit of their argument. Everyone felt bad for Yang being so close but that is sport and he should have been thankful he got away with not being deducted properly so that he even got a medal at all. To this day he still complains that he was robbed because once that narrative was sold to the S Korean public he has to live that forever and so he will never admit the truth whether he acknowledges it personally or not. To sum up, the karma of Yang and the S Korean delegation at those games came back and hit them in the ass and they got what they deserved and Paul Hamm will remain the Olympic champion forever and no one will remember who came in second or third place at those games.
Obviously the Korean, the rules are dumb. He lost through no fault of his own (not taking anything from Paul Hamm, but fair is fair, do you want to win in a dirty way?)
Appearances matter. Paul didn't present himself in a magnanimous manner. It was a bad look. And in anything media: perception and conjecture are deciding factors. I wish it wasn't that way. But even this video doesn't cover the full story and changes the narrative and then the uploader asks viewers for their opinion. Based on incomplete information.
The rules clearly stated that if someone was going to contest the scores, they had to do so before the end of the competition. Although the Korean athlete should have won, his coaches didn’t question his score until it was too late, therefore Hamm is still the winner.
the korean athlete actually shouldn't have won, the judges misjudged him in TWO areas, and his score is overall actually 1 tenth HIGHER than it should be, not LOWER
I had no idea that happened. So because the judges fucked up, and Yang Tae Young's coach didn't file the complaint in time, Paul lost sponsors. It's not like Paul cheated to win, he just got lucky.
The answer to me is simple. When it’s so close, you don’t let a small administrative or bureaucratic procedure like “submit before end of competition “ get in the way. Hamm should give up the medal. Or he simply knows he won on an administrative issue which has nothing to do with sports excellence or his own performance. So meh
Definitely Yang. But could not blame Paul for clinging to that gold, it holds significance as the first american to do that, but would be admirable if he swap it Yang.
Good sportsmanship would indicate that Yang Tae Young should have taken gold and Paul Hamm would have no problem giving it to him. This was not about performance, this was about a judging technicality that was at neither fault of the athletes. In the 2016 Summer Olympics, Duran Navia false started when competing in the 400 meter freestyle. Automatic disqualification. The man walked away in tear with his hand covering his mouth accepting his fate. The rules were clear - false start = DQ. Good sportsmanship played on the other hand recognized that this was an error and Duran Navia was allowed to compete. Just a beautiful moment in sports history. Not a single swimmer contested for fought this false start. That's how sports should be. Yang Tae Young was the clear Gold. Paul Hamm new that.
But every sport has rules. As a gymnastics coach I know I have to keep my eyes on that start value and it is my job to know if I feel like there's a problem that happened so that I can file an inquiry. It's his fault for not paying attention to the start value. In the last meet I was in a couple of weeks ago I'm pretty sure I didn't see the start value on one of my gymnast and the score seemed a little low, but I didn't see it so I can do anything. But in that same meet I saw the start value for my gymnast be 9.5 instead of 10.0. I knew it wasn't right. So I submitted an inquiry it was declined because they said she did not perform the turn she was supposed to on floor. Luckily I had video review as a choice. So I got the parents phone, took it to the judges, followed the correct protocol, they saw she did the turn, andchanged the score before awards were given out. A part of good sportsmanship is that you also have to follow protocol and rules. Those rules are there because the judges sometimes don't see everything, so as a coach you have to do your due diligence. Sportsmanship calls for you to follow those rules and follow that protocol. He did not. As I said there was one time I'm sure the score wasn't right because of start value but I knew I could do not have any recourse so I did nothing. But a couple of hours later because I wasn't paying attention it forced me to pay attention to all the start values after that and it helped save my gymnast .5 taking her floor from 8.925 to 9.425 and given her 2nd on floor and the all around. If it was changed after the competition was done, that would have been unsportsmanlike because it goes against the rules and protocol. Odds are they would not have changed it because the skill looks so similar they would have stuck with what they said.
As 2 Flips 3 Twists said 3 I used to not be sure until I heard about this “Hamm supporters also pointed out that Yang's routine included 4 'hangs' instead of the 3 allowed, an error that, if caught, would have resulted in a penalty of .2 points, removing Yang from medal contention” I don’t know the 2001-2005 cop well but if the judges had done their job Yang wouldn’t have medaled at all, and Romania would have gotten bronze. I think Paul won because the judging was clearly sketchy. They missed a two tenth mistake from yang but then they botched his start value for a tenth?
While the rules stated that a formal inquiry must've been submitted prior to the end of the competition, if I were in Mr. Hamm's place, I would like to think that I would have petitioned the International Olympic Committee and the FIG to present the gold medal to Mr. Yang. Regardless of the outcome of the petition, I would also like to believe that I would have turned the medal over to Mr. Yang as the rightful winner of the competition. After all, while his coach didn't submit a formal inquiry, it didn't change the fact that he still should have received a higher point total than Mr. Hamm, only failing to do so due to a judging error.
No, this video completely missed the details as to why Hamm absolutely won the gold anyway! Because the judges made MULTIPLE errors, the corrected score of Yang would have been lower, not higher, adding the 0.1 in this video but DEDUCTING 0.2 for Yang's 4th pause ("hang"). It never made sense that so much would be made of one judging error but not of the second error. The net total has Hamm still winning.
The “Korean” Yang actually would have come in 4th place due to an error where the judges didn’t deduct points off from his. 4th hang. Which would have put him in 4th place. He should be happy he keeps his silver.
Why? ... Yang should have been deducted 0.2 for additional jumps that are allowed but was under valued 0.1 sooo that's a 0.1 he benefited from multiple judging errors.
I hate that Paul lost sponsors because of this controversy, it wasn't his fault the judges made the error.
💯💯💯 it was definitely the judges fault. This happens a lot where people who work behind the scenes mess up and the person who's more visual suffers the consequences
yeah, a controversy like this can end someone's career and that's messed up
Paul handled it so classlessly - he
Should have acknowledged her didn’t win
Yeah it’s not Paul’s fault that the judges made an error
Gymnasts perform the routines and have absolutely no control over the scores. Scores are 100% on the judges.
This video completely missed the details as to why Hamm absolutely won the gold anyway! Because the judges made MULTIPLE errors, the corrected score of Yang would have been lower, not higher, adding the 0.1 in this video but DEDUCTING 0.2 for Yang's 4th pause ("hang"). It never made sense that so much would be made of one judging error but not of the second error. The net result is that Hamm wins the gold.
This part!
And Paul was horribly harassed after this, when he didn't do anything wrong.
Thank you for correcting this. Paul deserved the medal he earned.
I'm glad someone else knows this! Paul didn't win by default or because of a technicality. He is the true champion and would have won anyway. The one who was harmed by it all was Ioan Scicu of Romania who would have won bronze over Yang had Yang's fourth hold been identified during his performance. The judges from the CAS hearing even said (I have a copy of the transcript) that it was Yang himself who benefited from the judges' errors that night. Needless to day, the Koreans were more than a little embarrassed by it all.
Simple, both Gymnasts get the Gold medal similar to Salt Lake Olympic controversy. Hamm knew the score he needed BEFORE he did his final routine ... no one knows what would be the impact if he knew he needed a higher score to win. Some athletes will make small difficulty upgrades if needed to win the match.
This would be the best solution. Thing is, the Salt Lake controversy was clearly a case of sabotage by one of the judges. The skaters were victims of deliberate match-fixing(under the current code of points, the Russian pair would've won despite the step out on one of the jumps. Their level of difficulty and component scores were quite a bit higher than the Canadians...yes, I'm still salty about it😅)
In this case however ; the judges made an 'honest mistake' and there are rules in place to rectify the mistake within a timely fashion. It's kinda like when a tennisplayer neglects to challenge a line call and then demands for the point to be awarded after they lose the match . The umpire would be like:"I didn't see it but you could have challenged the call. You didn't. Whattya want me to do?" Having said that, I would be more magnanimous than Paul was. It would not sit right with me to win this way. On the other hand I can also understand it from a gymnast pov: you are there to compete. It should not be up to you to do the judges job. I bet gymnasts get frustrated when mistakes made by judges become a deciding factor.
Agreed pin a gold on both of them. They are both champs to me
I wish Ian would have posted the whole story here. The fourth hang. How the competitors may have made slight adjustments to their routines based on their respective scores. There's a whole butterfly effect here...Paul deserves a better breakdown than this :59s clip.
Agreed. I generally enjoy Ian's content, but even if he didn't put forth his own opinion, he should've laid out all the arguments for and against each competitor's performance and scoring.
Yeah...I had to read the comment section to get the full story. I don't like selective reporting. It's click baitey. First time I commented on this channel. I won't follow it anymore. I wish the uploader all the best but, I don't like it when people omit information to form a false narrative and then ask for opinions in the comments' section. That's some Fox News type o' crap. It only makes people more misinformed. Instead of it being informative and educational.
@@roddo1955it’s not the first time Ian has made a huge mistake in his gymnastics video. He also reposted and perpetuated the Olga Korbut flip “death loop” bullshit about it only being performed once by her in 1972 and being immediately banned due to danger when in reality it was performed and DOCUMENTED multiple times up until the mid 80’s when standing on the high bar became banned in the COP.
He’s presenting himself as sort of an experienced source on all things gymnastics but he makes a lot of small mistakes (calling a sheep jump a ring jump in his latest vid) and big mistakes because he just pumps out content with no regard.
Yes, this definitely isn't the whole story. Paul didn't win on a technicality or by default. He's the rightful winner. Upon watching a replay of Yang's parallel bars routine, the officials found he had a fourth hold which the judges missed that night and for which Yang did not receive his mandatory 0.2 deduction. That not only would have negated the 0.1 in start value restored to him, but the additional 0.1 deduction would have left him OFF the podium. The CAS officials said it was Yang himself who benefited from the judges' errors that night and not Paul. I have a copy of the CAS ruling. It was Iaon Scicu of Romania who was harmed, not Yang, because if Yang had been scored correctly, Scicu would have won bronze instead of Yang.
I had forgotten about this, but I was watching this with my mother and her father my grandfather who are both experienced competitive gymnasts. My grandfather pointed out that Yang did four hangs so we were all surprised that there was any controversy to start with other than his fuzzy dismount. Even without these details he just did not get the job done.
I don't understand how this is more controversial than the vault being at the wrong height for the woman 's AA in 2000. There's video on CZcams of Khorkina loosing her shit about it at the time and a bunch of gymnasts could've been seriously injured. Or how about in 1996 when a bunch of adults pressured Kerri Strug into doing an unnecessary vault on a wrecked ankle, that forced her to retire from the rest of the competition and ended her career, as a result. She qualified for AA and event finals, but never got to do any of it because the national team coaches didn't care who they had to put thru a meat grinder to get team gold.
@@ArtGirl82nobody said it was more or less controversial than the height controversy in the WAG competition. Or Kerri Strug injuring her ankle. You brought up a different situation and used false equivalency and whattaboutism to make a point that I'm not seeing. You could have just made a comparison and give that as an example. But neeeuwe....you just have to come in with a 'but you know what is worse?'. What is your point? Khorkina? Strug and her ankle in 1996? This video is not about why you don't understand that something is more controversial than two other things. What does not issuing a protest have to do with Kerri having to perform on a vault whilst injured....in 1996? Whattaboutism much? Or did you just want a reason to discuss WAG? Plenty of videos you can choose from. But this wasn't the one.
In the CAS hearing after the Olympics, the officials of the court did see in a video repaly Yang's fourth hold that the judges missed that night and for which he received no deduction. As such, even if Yang had received the 0.1 extra for his starting value, the fourth hold comes with a mandatory 0.2 deduction. That means even if Yang had been restored the 0.1 to his starting value, the mandatory deduction for the fourth hold not only would have cancelled that 0.1 out, he would have lost an ADDITIONAL 0.1, leaving him OFF the podium. The court officials said it was Yang himself that benefited from the judges' errors that night and not Paul. Paul would have won anyway. It was Ioan Scicu who lost out because had Yang been scored properly, Scicu would have won bronze, not Yang. The Korean officials were quite embarrassed by the whole thing. Paul is the rightful winner, and he didn't win by default or because of a technicality.
Coaches and gymnasts themselves always check/add up their own points at the end of the routine to make sure they’re given the credit they think they deserve. Kinda baffling how NO ONE checked his start value because a 9.9 is VERY different from a 10.0. Paul got the gold fair and square because Yang and his coaches didn’t submit an inquiry in time as per the rules that are clearly stated. Very unfortunate, yes, but at the end of the day it was their own fault.
"but at the end of the day it was their own fault."??
It's the judges fault, full stop.
@Fdopka disagree.
There is shared blame here.
I'm a professional engineer responsible for my work, but also for catching problems with how my work is perceived in a timely fashion. If I provide a good design, and the client doesn't like it because they misinterpreted it, and I ignore their response, two parties have made mistakes.
The rules seem fair to me... they have built-in error checking with a generous time limit the team allowed to expire.
It's a shame but it's not fair to lay this 100% on the judges
@@andy4an Funny that the competitors have to judge the judge's work...please.
@Fdopka
Do you also think that we should abolish instant replays in sports and ban coaches from challenging calls?
Do you think that would make sports fairer?
Do you think that judging gymnastics is so easy and that it is reasonable to expect perfection? That they should remove the rule allowing teams to double-check the results?
@@andy4an Does it change the fact that it's the judges fault? They are the ones who made this wrong call, full stop.
Paul deserves the medal. Rules are rules.
the rules are clear and you just said them. It must be contested BEFORE the ending of the competition, so it's Paul's medal.
The Romanian team also complained that Hamm's was over scored, leading to even more controversy, which put more preasure on how exactly the scoring system actually works. That's probably why in 2006 the scoring system were completely overhauled.
The judges didn't make any error, the Korean coaches and people who had to submit something to the judges were the ones who made an error because they didn't submit it in time, don't know why Paul is getting negatives from a mistake from people who live across the world
They should have been co-champions, since neither of them made errors in judging!
Im glad to have read the comment section. You left out some crucial details and you misrepresented the situation. From what I understand, the korean athlete had deductions that weren't counted.
I'm confused, now. Give the full story instead of a biased synopsis.
it was a terrible final, with Hamm with a terrible fall on vault, and the mistake on the koreans, the best gymnast whod eserved gold was romanian SUCIU, anyway it's not Paul Hamm's fault if judges and korean coaches can't do their work, the problem were judges and the coaches who din't ask inquiry in time, as they dinn't know the rules
I mean, the rules clearly state that a revision must be submitted till the end of the competition. So Hamm is the champ there.
Agreed
U are an american aren't u
@@Riley-nl7vs What does being an American have to do with accepting the outcome of a competition by following the rules?
You also have to take into account sportsmanship. Good sportsmanship would dictact that Yang Tae Young would have taken gold, and Paul Hamm would have no problem giving it to him.
Agreed.
That South Korean committed some errors at least one of which wasn’t properly deducted so he still would have lost - so he should not have been the Olympic champion in 2004!!!
He made errors. He didn't 'commit' errors. Its not a criminal investigation.
You should work for Fox News...they love to word things in a certain way to change the narrative.😅
This is very interesting. For kinesiology purposes, can you please make another video explaining the exact differences between the 2 moves side by side? I would love to see with better explanation. (I'm sure others would too.) @IanGunther
Set the speed to 0.25x and watch their position at the bottom of the swing. Yang's arms are extended for a giant swing (tucked handstand position). The second one swings through closed shoulders.
Johnny Li's right. "Bottom of the swing" as in how the double back is initiated. Straight arms leading into it, vs the closed shoulders entry.
One is from hang the other is from support
Can’t we do the thing where they both get a gold here? It’s not the athletes fault and I honestly think they’re both pretty deserving.
To do so would set a precedence for complete chaos in all future olympics.
The judges made a second, larger mistake, that is not covered in this video.
If the silver routine had been judged accurately, he would not have placed at all.
Hamm won the gold, even if the coaches had submitted for review, because there was a 4th hang when only 3 were allowed. Maybe the coaches didn't catch it, or maybe they did and that's why they didn't petition before the event was over🤷
If it had been reviewed, more points would have been lost due to the 4th hang, than correcting the points for the maneuver would have given.... leading to not placing at all.
I don't remember which country technically should have won 3rd, but due to the faulty judging, they were officially 4th and no medal....
My thoughts exactly.... similar to the Salt Lake Olympic controversy ... Russian Skaters kept the Gold and the Canadians were also give the Gold.
@@longhornz30not similar at all. Salt Lake City was a case of blatant match fixing.
Paul deserves the medal because the judges made multiple mistakes in judging his routine, however, on top of that, the coaches all know the rules and although it's a technicality, it is within their ability to do something about that within the given timeframe. If they had requested the judges look at it again, they would have lost a podium spot though, so they didn't. Taking away the medal from a man who is also very deserving of it later on, is all kinds of disrespectful - I think all the blame is shared between the judges and Yang's coaches for the mistaken calculations and not getting it petitioned in time - neither of the athletes is to blame, but both of them suffered for it - that's what annoys me most - I think Paul shouldn't have been asked to return his medal, that was really rude - he was legally the winner and in my opinion rightfully so. Teams often don't petition for the judges to look at their scoring again, and less fortunate athletes often don't have the means to do so, but in the case of the Olympics, it wasn't a case of a missing budget for the team, just negligence on the coaches side to respond to in a timely manner or perhaps a strategic move, so the prior mistake wasn't looked into, and he got a position on the podium. Because unlike for celebrities, all press, isn't good press for athletes. Bad press, really is bad press, and in Paul's case caused significant damage. That's my opinion on this topic.
Yang was just jealous
I was a high level synchronized swimmer for years and trust me I understand the horrors of judged sports. It’s 100% subjective and UNFAIR. Even though I was the one winning medals after my first year as I had a natural ability and caught on luckily extremely fast for some reason unknown to me other then pure genetic luck and drive. Anyway I’m saying that because I’m coming from the stand point of the first and second ribbon winner not second to last place to give perspective. I was just in the lower half until I won a nation award for excellence then suddenly the very next day of competition I somehow started my winning of first place and on very rare occasion third. All because the judges suddenly knew who I was at that point from the national recognition. Our inquiries up until that point trying to figure out why I was scoring so low were all met with ‘she’s new and needs to our in her time to learn and build skills’ when really it had nothing to do with that because I apparently had the skills for first place the next day after the award. It still makes me angry. Until these sports are no longer judged by humans there will NEVER be a fare scored event. In saying that, he got the medal, the other coach messed up by not filing in time and so the rules clearly state the winner stands. Or else people could go back years later and call for medals to be changed and thing could get out of hand very quickly. Judging errors happen regularly, on the daily. It’s something we all get used to and it sucks when the stakes are so high. But it also has to do with the experience of that judge as well as position of view and what they viewed. No human is perfect. Specially in judged sports. Hard pill to swallow but that’s the truth. The winner announced at the event stands. ❤
The level of robbery
The robbery happened minutes early when Paul performed the most horrendous vault and one of the judge's had to save his life
As the saying goes: "There's always an Asian..." 😅
Can someone explain to me the difference between the two confused moves for the Korean? The moves shown here look exactly alike to my unprofessional eye.
I think the Korean competitor DESERVES it but it would also be unfair to the American bc it’s rightfully theirs
If the judges fd up, both ppl shouldn't be screwed
Congrats on 700k subs!!
I am new to intricacies of gymnastics. I am not sure of the difference in 00:28 and 00:31. What would make one routine of lesser point that the other routine? 😅🤔😅
could care less. when we're talking about scores this close, they're both winners.
Couldn't care less?
The history books won't mention two winners.
It was all the judges fault.
I didn’t see any difference between those moves.
Once they put it around my neck, they wouldn't get it back.
Depends on your point of view. In some sports, if the judges or referees make an error, that’s just part of the game. The Olympics provided for a challenge and review, but the coach missed the opportunity. I think Paul should keep the gold.
The rules clearly stated the complaint needs to be made before it ended. So the coach dropped the ball after the judges did. It’s not Hamm’s fault at all, the FIG president was inappropriate to request for his medal.
Paul rightfully so earned that medal. It was their fault for no catching that. There are rules in place for things like this!
Protocol wasn't followed. Hamm is the clear winner.
Rules are rules.....
All sports have moments of controversy due to human error, and it is impossible to sort out how getting it correct the first time would have influenced the outcome on the day. People get in their heads and mess up for all kinds of reasons, and they make decisions based on the information in front of them. If Yang got the correct score on P-bars, maybe he would've substituted in an easier skill on high bar. Maybe Paul wouldn't have had as great of a high bar routine if he didn't think he had a chance with that difference. Maybe the judges for the rest of the night would've subconsciously made different execution score marks (No they aren't SUPPOSED to be influenced by the scores, but come on...we all know it's pretty much impossible not to be in some way). It's literally impossible to know how it would've played out had it been scored properly.
Yang and his coaches had a chance to catch and challenge the error during the meet, and they missed that chance. The judges should've got it right the first time, and they didn't. Neither one of those things are Paul's fault, and all he did on that day is pick himself up (off of the vault judges' table - lol) put one foot in front of the other and make one of the most epic comebacks and iconic sports moment I've ever seen. He had no power to change the official results, and the FIG putting their F up on Paul to "fix" by pressuring him to symbolically concede by giving up his medal is not the answer either. There was no fair way to correct it after the fact. Someone would've been screwed to some degree no matter what.
Paul deserves the medal. Just like in football when a referee doesn't see a player is over the goal line so he doesn't give the points for a touchdown. If the coach doesn't dispute that call, that's it. They don't get the points. Paul Hamm didn't cheat, the judge made a mistake. Tae Young's coach didn't dispute it, so he doesn't get the medal. Bummer deal, but that's the way it goes. Life isn't perfect, therefore it's not always completely fair either.
rather than say: "this move for this move" - it'd be nice if you called the moves by their skills: "From handstand, giant swing into a double back toss to upper arms" vs an "above bar double back toss to upper arms."
It is the coaches job to see to it his contestant win and be familiar with the rules especially filing protests.
Paul should get the model
That's why there are so many inquiries in rhythmics (coaches literally go around with the money inside their bags😂)
😂 I have heard that an enquiry costs money. But do you still have to pay if it turns out that you were right?
'Oh man, I ran out of cash! Does anyone have a 100 bucks I can borrow?'😂
@@roddo1955 if you are right they return you the money, if not they keep it
In reading many of the comments from those experienced in judging gymnastics and the average viewer, I agree with never taking away an awarded medal or penalizing an athlete for honest competition and technicalities not their fault (revoking endorsements, etc).
A second gold medal should only be awarded if thoroughly independent review warrants. The home community or school of the athlete might choose the bestow upon the athlete an additional honor in consolation…but in keeping with the spirit of the Games.
Let Paul keep his medal, he won under parameters completely outta his control.
The judges didn't just miss the higher value maneuver, they also missed a 4th hang (pause, or rest) which would have deducted more than what he lost from the first mistake.
If the coaches had submitted for review, then he would not have even placed and Hamm still would have kept the gold.
i mean this is literally judges error, neither of athlete's fault.
Youngs coach didn't submit the potition in time, so Hamm gets the gold
So did Paul Hamm give his medal back?! What happened?
Yang should have been penalized by 0.2 becuased of an extra jump not allowed which negates his 0.1 under value ... point is the judges made multiple errors... Hamm & Yang should have been given the Gold.
No, they had a court ruling that said the gold medal was his.
His coach messed up. Rules are rules.
Didn't Paul also receive an impossible score on Vault because the judges missed a downgrade? Either way Yang deserved the medal. Stripping Paul of his is extremely harsh after the fact. If it's a missed inquiry that's on the coaches but if it's a judging error then it should be rectified.
Yang should have been penalized by 0.2 because he made an additional jump not permitted but judges missed that deduction. Sooo if you net with a +0.1 under value... it's a net benefit by 0.1 hence, his final score was still less than Hamm ...love Korea though❤
Rectified? Well than Yang would have gotten a medal at all. Yang didn’t deserve his silver.
@@JVSfit23 Paul lost the medal at vault
That's right. Not only lost the medal on the vault but one of the judge's saved his life
@@longhornz30 Paul lost the 🏅 on vault and one of the judge's saved his life
That’s bs! It wasn’t Paul’s fault at all. It’s not as if he consider w the judges so he could unfairly win! If it was the athletes job to also be in charge of the scoring, then what’s the point?! How awful Paul suffered consequences from others’ mistakes!
He did win though as Yang if scored properly would have not received any medal and would have gotten 4th place. Hamm still would have gotten gold.
So he won the gold due to an error by the judge's. Got it!
Sort of, the Korean made one additional jump than allowed which should have resulted in a 0.2 deduction but judges missed that but his final routine should have had a higher start value of 0.1 ..sooo netting both, the Korean gymnast benefited by 0.1 due to multiple judging errors
I’d be so fucking embarrassed to keep a medal I won because the judges made a mistake.
Dance off.
😂 or a Walk off. Like in Zoolander. You KNOW the Korean athlete would slay the competition; look at those cheekbones!😂
Yang “deserved” to win in some alternate universe where the rules are different and judges are perfect, but Paul actually won.
Yang did
Paul won fair and square. Yang was over scored on his PB routine and had they reviewed the scores with a challenge, Yang would have actually dropped off the podium altogether.
I love S Korea but in this instance they tried to pull dirty trick because they were so close to winning and of course it hurt but then they went out of their way to tarnish Paul’s reputation when they knew full well that Yang had been over scored himself and that they were not being fully honest to the public when they made all their arguments to the media. This was exacerbated by the FIG president making an inappropriate and what should have been a terminable offense of asking Hamm to just give his medal to Yang even though the results were official and rightly so with Hamm as the winner just because the FIG president wanted to appease the S Koreans regardless of the actual lack of honesty and merit of their argument.
Everyone felt bad for Yang being so close but that is sport and he should have been thankful he got away with not being deducted properly so that he even got a medal at all. To this day he still complains that he was robbed because once that narrative was sold to the S Korean public he has to live that forever and so he will never admit the truth whether he acknowledges it personally or not.
To sum up, the karma of Yang and the S Korean delegation at those games came back and hit them in the ass and they got what they deserved and Paul Hamm will remain the Olympic champion forever and no one will remember who came in second or third place at those games.
they didn't submit the required protest in time end of story .
Kinda disappointed that people cared more about rules than sportsmanship
I mean, it's a gold medal that they've been training their whole lifes for, I would very much not care about sportsmanship if I were them
If Hamm had dignity and sportsmanship he could had return the gold.
Just give him another GOLD....we give 2x gold now to share when its too close to call. which makes sense!
Obviously the Korean, the rules are dumb. He lost through no fault of his own (not taking anything from Paul Hamm, but fair is fair, do you want to win in a dirty way?)
Bro I've met Paul at least 10 times before at meets.
Well I'm his best friend and he never mentions you.
why should he give him the medal if the rules clearly state you must submit an inquiry before the comp ends 💀
This passed me off. Paul didn't do ship but what he was supposed to do...the judges were the aholes here.but he was treated very badly!!
Appearances matter. Paul didn't present himself in a magnanimous manner. It was a bad look. And in anything media: perception and conjecture are deciding factors. I wish it wasn't that way. But even this video doesn't cover the full story and changes the narrative and then the uploader asks viewers for their opinion. Based on incomplete information.
The rules clearly stated that if someone was going to contest the scores, they had to do so before the end of the competition. Although the Korean athlete should have won, his coaches didn’t question his score until it was too late, therefore Hamm is still the winner.
the korean athlete actually shouldn't have won, the judges misjudged him in TWO areas, and his score is overall actually 1 tenth HIGHER than it should be, not LOWER
I had no idea that happened. So because the judges fucked up, and Yang Tae Young's coach didn't file the complaint in time, Paul lost sponsors. It's not like Paul cheated to win, he just got lucky.
Paul deserves the medal. Btw, I found your page via Nile Wilson’s.
He really can keep it. But the title is for the Korean.
Paul ❤
Rules state must be done before Competition has ended they screwed up him and keeps the metal
Paul could have shared the gold with Young. Win-win for everyone.
Who has the most money to bribe the judges gets the medal.
The answer to me is simple. When it’s so close, you don’t let a small administrative or bureaucratic procedure like “submit before end of competition “ get in the way. Hamm should give up the medal. Or he simply knows he won on an administrative issue which has nothing to do with sports excellence or his own performance. So meh
Who cares though
Paul Hamm won fair and square. He's the all around champion and this silver place dude had his shot and lost
Definitely Yang. But could not blame Paul for clinging to that gold, it holds significance as the first american to do that, but would be admirable if he swap it Yang.
Good sportsmanship would indicate that Yang Tae Young should have taken gold and Paul Hamm would have no problem giving it to him. This was not about performance, this was about a judging technicality that was at neither fault of the athletes. In the 2016 Summer Olympics, Duran Navia false started when competing in the 400 meter freestyle. Automatic disqualification. The man walked away in tear with his hand covering his mouth accepting his fate. The rules were clear - false start = DQ. Good sportsmanship played on the other hand recognized that this was an error and Duran Navia was allowed to compete. Just a beautiful moment in sports history. Not a single swimmer contested for fought this false start. That's how sports should be. Yang Tae Young was the clear Gold. Paul Hamm new that.
But every sport has rules. As a gymnastics coach I know I have to keep my eyes on that start value and it is my job to know if I feel like there's a problem that happened so that I can file an inquiry. It's his fault for not paying attention to the start value. In the last meet I was in a couple of weeks ago I'm pretty sure I didn't see the start value on one of my gymnast and the score seemed a little low, but I didn't see it so I can do anything. But in that same meet I saw the start value for my gymnast be 9.5 instead of 10.0. I knew it wasn't right. So I submitted an inquiry it was declined because they said she did not perform the turn she was supposed to on floor. Luckily I had video review as a choice. So I got the parents phone, took it to the judges, followed the correct protocol, they saw she did the turn, andchanged the score before awards were given out. A part of good sportsmanship is that you also have to follow protocol and rules. Those rules are there because the judges sometimes don't see everything, so as a coach you have to do your due diligence. Sportsmanship calls for you to follow those rules and follow that protocol. He did not. As I said there was one time I'm sure the score wasn't right because of start value but I knew I could do not have any recourse so I did nothing. But a couple of hours later because I wasn't paying attention it forced me to pay attention to all the start values after that and it helped save my gymnast .5 taking her floor from 8.925 to 9.425 and given her 2nd on floor and the all around. If it was changed after the competition was done, that would have been unsportsmanlike because it goes against the rules and protocol. Odds are they would not have changed it because the skill looks so similar they would have stuck with what they said.
As 2 Flips 3 Twists said
3
I used to not be sure until I heard about this “Hamm supporters also pointed out that Yang's routine included 4 'hangs' instead of the 3 allowed, an error that, if caught, would have resulted in a penalty of .2 points, removing Yang from medal contention” I don’t know the 2001-2005 cop well but if the judges had done their job Yang wouldn’t have medaled at all, and Romania would have gotten bronze. I think Paul won because the judging was clearly sketchy. They missed a two tenth mistake from yang but then they botched his start value for a tenth?
Good sportsmanship? This video is a joke. Yang corrected score would have given him 4th place. Hamm still deserves gold.
Yang Tae Young
While the rules stated that a formal inquiry must've been submitted prior to the end of the competition, if I were in Mr. Hamm's place, I would like to think that I would have petitioned the International Olympic Committee and the FIG to present the gold medal to Mr. Yang. Regardless of the outcome of the petition, I would also like to believe that I would have turned the medal over to Mr. Yang as the rightful winner of the competition. After all, while his coach didn't submit a formal inquiry, it didn't change the fact that he still should have received a higher point total than Mr. Hamm, only failing to do so due to a judging error.
CLEARLY the right thing to do.
No, this video completely missed the details as to why Hamm absolutely won the gold anyway! Because the judges made MULTIPLE errors, the corrected score of Yang would have been lower, not higher, adding the 0.1 in this video but DEDUCTING 0.2 for Yang's 4th pause ("hang"). It never made sense that so much would be made of one judging error but not of the second error. The net total has Hamm still winning.
@@qc1okay shut up
Yang didn’t deserve his silver. He wouldn’t have medaled at all if they scored correctly. Hamm still would have beaten Yang.
@@JVSfit23 but we saw Pauls vault where he received an impossible score and we all saw how one of the judge's saved his life
First!
The Korean. It’s pretty obvious. Have some integrity. You are from STANFORD. You should know that by now. Every decent human should know that.
Integrity is number one.
Decency or integrity don't contribute to a route starting value.
The “Korean” Yang actually would have come in 4th place due to an error where the judges didn’t deduct points off from his. 4th hang. Which would have put him in 4th place. He should be happy he keeps his silver.
No one with integrity would suggest Yang deserved to even medal lol….
Obviously Yang, but Hamm fans can’t handle the truth. That’s all
Young Deserves the medal.
Why? ... Yang should have been deducted 0.2 for additional jumps that are allowed but was under valued 0.1 sooo that's a 0.1 he benefited from multiple judging errors.
@@longhornz30 I was at that event , The judges were racist.
Actually Yang correct score would have given him ZERO medals.
He doesn’t deserve 💩. Hamm still beat him
@@JVSfit23 The only reason why you’re saying that is cause he’s white