I find it interesting how Jaheira actually approves of sparing Viconia, which I think shows how she still kinda cares about her to a certain extent since they were companions at one point in time.
Minsc approves of killing her but Jaheria doesnt approve or dissaprove. Jaheria clearly has a weakspot for Viconia but understands killing her but prefers sparing her.
This is how I accidentally broke my oath on my first playthrough. I figured she was thoroughly beaten at this point and that sparing her was excusable. Guess not.
Oath of vengeance is all about finding the bigger baddie in the situation and smiting it till it no longer moves. Doesnt matter if its already beaten, if its the greater evil that shit dies. And Viconia is/was for all intents and purposes pretty evil, so smiting it is.
How she can be excused ? She is a monster. She has to be wiped out or burned alive. It’s fairly easy to know in this game when you break the oath, if you are smart enough in real life. It’s like when you watch Gortash become the emperor . Like wtf , you can’t just allow it in your right mind ! And if you allow you break the oath. It’s too easy . I guess kids will not understand it
@@Pentax67letting Gortash become the Arch duke is a problem for paladins? I didn't interfere with the coronation because of all of the guards and still watches... A sort of "I'll level up a little more, take care of wherever the still watches are coming from and then I'll smite you"
Not letting him become duke, but allying with him. I reloaded after unintentionally losing my oath between the two dialogue options that sounded pretty ambiguous. One was basiaclly "Yeah, I will do it" and the other one was "I guess". I just picked the first one while planning to kill him anyway, seems the game disagreed@@AndreaB6
Depend on your oath. For vengeance Paladins? You Smite evil. If you *find* evil, you are oathbound to kill it- not defeat it and let it go, kill it. You also have to sign off on vengeance ploys. Oath of Ancients requires you to spare everyone you reasonably can- also undead are a big no-no. Oath of Devotion is more traditionally knightly. Defend the weak, don't lie or steal, don't attack people that didn't attack you first. That kind of thing.
She kidnapped a child, twisted, and broke her mind, and made her torture her own parents. She absolutely deserves to die by any code of morality or ethics.
100+ years of torturing people, getting others to willingly and gladly torture people (like a certain Shadowheart who says that she was made to enjoy torture), killing said people, abduction, grooming for Shar, killing her colleagues, killing her colleagues under Shar's demands, burning her old enclave, her past history, killing innocents in BG2 if you played that way, etc@@snappycenter7863
I actually love that I was able to break my oath here. I broke it earlier and realized I couldn't move stat points around as an oathbreaker when I gained permanent buffs. I actually knocked her out then went to the mirror and got the bonus stats then respec just to optimize a point then I rested. Then I went back and viconia was standing there and I talked to her and let her go. Didn't plan on ever respec again so perfect spot to break the oath.
It was the hardest fight in the game for me. Even though you didn't had someone to protect, what normally was the hardest till then. They cancelled my life cleric to good with there cold touch x)
this is a great fight to use Divine Intervention if you have it still on Shadowheart, since most of the enemies swarm around you the attack version of it can take out most of the room on it's own
I had to use two Elementals...and fall back to the stairs as a choke point (Elementals did help with breaking up darkness and maybe one of them being in Crown of Madness).
I think the idea is that she's meant to be viewed as irredeemable, like sure you could lock her up but chances are Shar would help her get free, so killing is the only way to be sure
its not even just oath of vengeance. im playing oeath of ancients paladin and it somehow breaks that oath as well. the oathbreaker mechanic is pretty cool on paper but the conditions seem to be pretty flawed. sometimes you can trigger it by killing a humanoid even if they attacked you first. equally flawed how you can just bypass it all by having one of your companions do the deed in question and pretend like nothing ever happened -.-
????? How tf is everyone so damn confused? Are you all on some level of stupidity I can't comprehend? Paladins vanquish evil. That's it. If you spare someone evil or join them, you break your oath. It's not that fuckn hard. If a little girl steals food from being poor, by all means she is indeed labelled as evil UNTIL you give her a trial as per paladin ways. If you do something to make a person that is deemed not evil to attack you, and you kill them, you are evil and an oathbreaker. Bro just dont roleplay as paladin if that concept is too hard to comprehend
well all the oeath haw a part in this that is broken vengence for what she done justice for braking the law and nature for braking the balance i hate vitconia in bg3 hows shes done since in bg2 you can change her to good and marrie her and haw a kid but then shes kiled by the shar warshipers for that or some old drow enemmys
I think for Oath of the Ancients, it's because you are allowing someone who shows no respect for the sanctity of life, someone who slaughtered whole scores of her own kin just because her goddess demanded it. Oath of the Ancients is all about protecting the sanctity of life and striking down those who tear it down purely for the sake of their own whims. And to let such a person walk free, especially when they seem utterly unrepentant, is an insult to the people who died by their hand and thus a violation of your oath.
@@kephryccephryc863 Oath of Ancients doesn't have the *vengeance* clause. In fact, the oath of ancients requires you to show mercy. There is clearly some problems with the oath system atm though. This game still needs a bit of polish.
@AsaelTheBeast I agree on polish but remember what Viconia said. She massacred her whole enclave for Shar. She has no repentance or remorse. Hers is not to question but to follow. Allowing such a person to walk away is damning more innocents to pain and death, bringing darkness herself closer to extinguishing the light. There is no good in that.
Heh, she didn't even get the speech on my first playthrough. Knocked out fast and then zotted to death by a Moonbeam. Given where she was she would've died anyway because AoE.
I've spared her as Oath of Vengeance paladin because I thought that Shar would get angry at her and would exile her like Shadowheart, making all of Viconia's life meaningless, including killing her own anclave. Killing her is mercy in that case.
It is not your place as a Oath of Vengeance Paladin to leave the bringing of justice so someone else, even if it is a deity like Shar. By sparing Viconia in the moment her life was in your hand, you broke your tenets and your oath. No mercy for the wicked.
You played an Oath of Divine-Cop paladin, managed to keep the oath UNTIL ACT 3, and only to broke it by sparing Viconia? VICONIA?! Were you purposefully doing an evil playthrough?
I play Vengeance Paladin in coop with buddies. And since the beginning my aim was to break oath. But i could not do it because my buddies ruined all possibilities by starting all dialogues where i could've broken the oath and i didn't respec to oath of Ancients or Devotion out of principle. So i guess this is gonna be my last chance to break oath of vengeance. Or there are other opportunites to break Oath of Vengeance in act 3?
Dammit. Why do you have to put spoilers in the video title? I would've loved to just encounter Viconia, my favorite companion from BG 1 and 2, not knowing she'd be in the game.
it makes perfect sense. Shar likes to play mind games and edit the minds of her worshippers to sculpt thier souls into tools. Do you REALLY think Shadowheart was the first? it is SO easy for jahiera to judge her without realizing the obvious.
@@alexsolomon8127 No, i mean the part where she kills an entire cult even bigger than what she have now just for the sake of mind washing some random girl and then she lied about it? Who cares if the dark Goddess wanted to kill her cult and aren't they supposed to be secret. After that she sents this same random girl whom clearly has doubts about her past to kill the daughter of Selune and gives a fuking spear that kills immortals. Honest for me this is either bad writing or Shar is just dumb!
@@alberisfernandes6770 Not so much dumb as petty, cruel, and outright malicious. Shar is EVIL and LIKES IT. the game underlines repeatedly she doesn't give a damn about her followers ..but manipulating a follower of her hated sister to become her most devoted priestess and (if you choose to) murder her own parents who never gave up hope for her, or thier faith in thier precious Selune? that's FUN. Shar would be jilling herself to the memory of THAT gambit for YEARS. if it worked out in her favor. And even if it didn't go completely according to plan..at least she gets the satisfaction of peeing in Selune's cornflakes again. and using the cleric of a rival goddess (lloth) who has lost everything...and convincing her to give up everything she has gained AGAIN to do it, all to Shar's greater glory...that's icing on the evil cake, baby. and hey...she can even let the story of how evil and awesome she is leak out..(corrupt a bard or two) which will only increase her reputation and the fear/awe people have of her...yummy.
@@alexsolomon8127 have you played original Baldur's gate games at all? It's not Viconia at all, Larian just turned her into cartoon villian, while she was one of the most complex characters made by Bioware. One of the few flaws of BG3, unfortunately
@@raivin7172 oh, i played it. Viconia was my main romance. I think the fall of Viconia de Vir into Shar's shadow is a tragic tale that wasn't told here....but the tale they DID tell was an interesting one. and we're given enough hints of the tricks Shar may have played on her. might as well complain that they included Edwin with no mention of Edwina....or for not mentioning what the heck happened to Aerie or some of the other longer-lived characters from BG2.
Just because she wants you to kill her, doesn't make her less evil. It's still your Oath to bring her to justice, regardless of what she wants or if she would repent.
I think most of us that spare her do so because of BG2, where she could be turned to be good eventually. But clearly that was not the case here, if you had no BG2 knowledge of her, i have a feeling she would be dead many times over. In any case I think an option to imprison her or something in your camp would have been good lol. At least for some fan service where you can talk to her from time to time. Have shadowheart prod her with sticks or so.
That at least makes sense since the oath of ancients makes a bit clearer then vengeance that sparing a creature like Ethel. Hells, I chose the oath of protection? Since I could break it early on by freeing Lae'Zel. Though I wish you didn't have to pay an additional fee if you're an oath breaker (1000 gold) plus the standard fee before respecing your character.
![Party banter [Viconia] | Baldur's Gate 2](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/1axqw0hn1Dw/mqdefault.jpg)
I find it interesting how Jaheira actually approves of sparing Viconia, which I think shows how she still kinda cares about her to a certain extent since they were companions at one point in time.
Minsc approves of killing her but Jaheria doesnt approve or dissaprove. Jaheria clearly has a weakspot for Viconia but understands killing her but prefers sparing her.
I made a point to bring Minsc and Jaheira to this quest. And I spared Viconia. For old time’s sake.
@@lanceelopezz223 Who TF cares
@@grizzlyadamblack
yer mum
For ur opinion, nobody@@grizzlyadamblack
This is how I accidentally broke my oath on my first playthrough. I figured she was thoroughly beaten at this point and that sparing her was excusable. Guess not.
Oath of vengeance is all about finding the bigger baddie in the situation and smiting it till it no longer moves. Doesnt matter if its already beaten, if its the greater evil that shit dies. And Viconia is/was for all intents and purposes pretty evil, so smiting it is.
How she can be excused ? She is a monster. She has to be wiped out or burned alive. It’s fairly easy to know in this game when you break the oath, if you are smart enough in real life. It’s like when you watch Gortash become the emperor . Like wtf , you can’t just allow it in your right mind ! And if you allow you break the oath. It’s too easy . I guess kids will not understand it
@@Pentax67letting Gortash become the Arch duke is a problem for paladins? I didn't interfere with the coronation because of all of the guards and still watches... A sort of "I'll level up a little more, take care of wherever the still watches are coming from and then I'll smite you"
Not letting him become duke, but allying with him. I reloaded after unintentionally losing my oath between the two dialogue options that sounded pretty ambiguous. One was basiaclly "Yeah, I will do it" and the other one was "I guess". I just picked the first one while planning to kill him anyway, seems the game disagreed@@AndreaB6
Depend on your oath. For vengeance Paladins? You Smite evil. If you *find* evil, you are oathbound to kill it- not defeat it and let it go, kill it. You also have to sign off on vengeance ploys.
Oath of Ancients requires you to spare everyone you reasonably can- also undead are a big no-no.
Oath of Devotion is more traditionally knightly. Defend the weak, don't lie or steal, don't attack people that didn't attack you first. That kind of thing.
In my game she just refused to talk to me. Act 3 can be so buggy
I think a paladin breaking their Oath by sparing Viconia is the story's way of saying Viconia deserves to die for what she did.
She kidnapped a child, twisted, and broke her mind, and made her torture her own parents. She absolutely deserves to die by any code of morality or ethics.
@@theeatherlash69 And then there's all the stuff she did before then, including back when she still lived in the Underdark.
yeah sparing her also breaks your Oath as Oath of the Ancients as well which actually caught me off guard
100+ years of torturing people, getting others to willingly and gladly torture people (like a certain Shadowheart who says that she was made to enjoy torture), killing said people, abduction, grooming for Shar, killing her colleagues, killing her colleagues under Shar's demands, burning her old enclave, her past history, killing innocents in BG2 if you played that way, etc@@snappycenter7863
@@theeatherlash69
"She absolutely deserves to die by any code of morality or ethics"
That is the biggest oxymoron I ever saw. 🤦♂
Oh neat. Didnt even get this cutscene. Game bugged out and she died without surrendering.
Honestly I'm impressed you managed to keep her alive.
? She can’t die. She automatically goes into a knocked out state.
And if she's knocked out in an AOE (like HoH or Raging Vortex) the next turn she dies
People who have played bg1 and 2 are most definitely gonna spare her
I actually love that I was able to break my oath here. I broke it earlier and realized I couldn't move stat points around as an oathbreaker when I gained permanent buffs. I actually knocked her out then went to the mirror and got the bonus stats then respec just to optimize a point then I rested. Then I went back and viconia was standing there and I talked to her and let her go. Didn't plan on ever respec again so perfect spot to break the oath.
I remember that fight this fight was very hard and I used scrolls and potions like never before 🤣
It was the hardest fight in the game for me. Even though you didn't had someone to protect, what normally was the hardest till then.
They cancelled my life cleric to good with there cold touch x)
this is a great fight to use Divine Intervention if you have it still on Shadowheart, since most of the enemies swarm around you the attack version of it can take out most of the room on it's own
@@amythistxue1same. I was forced to use Divine Intervention too
Spirit Guardians = ez w.
I had to use two Elementals...and fall back to the stairs as a choke point (Elementals did help with breaking up darkness and maybe one of them being in Crown of Madness).
I tried interacting with her. But it wont let me mine is bugged out
Killing feels inappropriate when she is already beaten. A prison would've been a perfect sentence, but alas a paladin does not always have such luxury
She has no reason to live. She is a freaking monster. Some people needs to be wiped out of existence for all bad things they did.
I think the idea is that she's meant to be viewed as irredeemable, like sure you could lock her up but chances are Shar would help her get free, so killing is the only way to be sure
its not even just oath of vengeance. im playing oeath of ancients paladin and it somehow breaks that oath as well. the oathbreaker mechanic is pretty cool on paper but the conditions seem to be pretty flawed. sometimes you can trigger it by killing a humanoid even if they attacked you first. equally flawed how you can just bypass it all by having one of your companions do the deed in question and pretend like nothing ever happened -.-
????? How tf is everyone so damn confused? Are you all on some level of stupidity I can't comprehend? Paladins vanquish evil. That's it. If you spare someone evil or join them, you break your oath. It's not that fuckn hard. If a little girl steals food from being poor, by all means she is indeed labelled as evil UNTIL you give her a trial as per paladin ways. If you do something to make a person that is deemed not evil to attack you, and you kill them, you are evil and an oathbreaker. Bro just dont roleplay as paladin if that concept is too hard to comprehend
well all the oeath haw a part in this that is broken vengence for what she done justice for braking the law and nature for braking the balance i hate vitconia in bg3 hows shes done since in bg2 you can change her to good and marrie her and haw a kid but then shes kiled by the shar warshipers for that or some old drow enemmys
I think for Oath of the Ancients, it's because you are allowing someone who shows no respect for the sanctity of life, someone who slaughtered whole scores of her own kin just because her goddess demanded it. Oath of the Ancients is all about protecting the sanctity of life and striking down those who tear it down purely for the sake of their own whims. And to let such a person walk free, especially when they seem utterly unrepentant, is an insult to the people who died by their hand and thus a violation of your oath.
@@kephryccephryc863 Oath of Ancients doesn't have the *vengeance* clause. In fact, the oath of ancients requires you to show mercy.
There is clearly some problems with the oath system atm though. This game still needs a bit of polish.
@AsaelTheBeast I agree on polish but remember what Viconia said. She massacred her whole enclave for Shar. She has no repentance or remorse. Hers is not to question but to follow. Allowing such a person to walk away is damning more innocents to pain and death, bringing darkness herself closer to extinguishing the light. There is no good in that.
Heh, she didn't even get the speech on my first playthrough. Knocked out fast and then zotted to death by a Moonbeam. Given where she was she would've died anyway because AoE.
I've spared her as Oath of Vengeance paladin because I thought that Shar would get angry at her and would exile her like Shadowheart, making all of Viconia's life meaningless, including killing her own anclave. Killing her is mercy in that case.
Good point
It is not your place as a Oath of Vengeance Paladin to leave the bringing of justice so someone else, even if it is a deity like Shar. By sparing Viconia in the moment her life was in your hand, you broke your tenets and your oath. No mercy for the wicked.
oathbreaker is awesome anyway
And that’s why she died on my play through. Ain’t got no time for that.
You played an Oath of Divine-Cop paladin, managed to keep the oath UNTIL ACT 3, and only to broke it by sparing Viconia? VICONIA?! Were you purposefully doing an evil playthrough?
na, was just curious.
I play Vengeance Paladin in coop with buddies. And since the beginning my aim was to break oath. But i could not do it because my buddies ruined all possibilities by starting all dialogues where i could've broken the oath and i didn't respec to oath of Ancients or Devotion out of principle. So i guess this is gonna be my last chance to break oath of vengeance. Or there are other opportunites to break Oath of Vengeance in act 3?
@@yuriyklim6381 Can't you just punch some villagers, or kill a flaming fist?
@@IndependentObserver it doesn't work for vengeance paladin. I killed peaceful npc and my oath wasn't broken.
@@yuriyklim6381 Yet another reason why I hate Oath of Vengeance.
Oath of Vengeance: so anywyas i started smiting.
Didnt realise you could do this, accidentally killed her with an AOE spell after knocking her out in my playthrough.
See this is why I have trouble playing a paladin in bg3
It's one of the most powerful classes tho.
First time? :D can't be.
I knew it!
#NotMyViconia
To the best of my knowledge, not a real hashtag.
Dammit. Why do you have to put spoilers in the video title? I would've loved to just encounter Viconia, my favorite companion from BG 1 and 2, not knowing she'd be in the game.
If Viconia was your favorite companion in BG 1 and 2 you might not want to meet her at all in this one.
@@knicknevin9975 Don't. Spoil.
@@LadyDoomsinger
Cry
Why'd you watch the video then?
@@dank_K_knight I didn't. I commented on the title and left.
Ha, I let her go and shot her in the back when she was running out
kek
The cat and the mouse
Its just me or this story of Viconia makes no sense!
it makes perfect sense. Shar likes to play mind games and edit the minds of her worshippers to sculpt thier souls into tools. Do you REALLY think Shadowheart was the first? it is SO easy for jahiera to judge her without realizing the obvious.
@@alexsolomon8127 No, i mean the part where she kills an entire cult even bigger than what she have now just for the sake of mind washing some random girl and then she lied about it? Who cares if the dark Goddess wanted to kill her cult and aren't they supposed to be secret. After that she sents this same random girl whom clearly has doubts about her past to kill the daughter of Selune and gives a fuking spear that kills immortals. Honest for me this is either bad writing or Shar is just dumb!
@@alberisfernandes6770 Not so much dumb as petty, cruel, and outright malicious. Shar is EVIL and LIKES IT. the game underlines repeatedly she doesn't give a damn about her followers ..but manipulating a follower of her hated sister to become her most devoted priestess and (if you choose to) murder her own parents who never gave up hope for her, or thier faith in thier precious Selune? that's FUN. Shar would be jilling herself to the memory of THAT gambit for YEARS. if it worked out in her favor. And even if it didn't go completely according to plan..at least she gets the satisfaction of peeing in Selune's cornflakes again. and using the cleric of a rival goddess (lloth) who has lost everything...and convincing her to give up everything she has gained AGAIN to do it, all to Shar's greater glory...that's icing on the evil cake, baby. and hey...she can even let the story of how evil and awesome she is leak out..(corrupt a bard or two) which will only increase her reputation and the fear/awe people have of her...yummy.
@@alexsolomon8127 have you played original Baldur's gate games at all? It's not Viconia at all, Larian just turned her into cartoon villian, while she was one of the most complex characters made by Bioware. One of the few flaws of BG3, unfortunately
@@raivin7172 oh, i played it. Viconia was my main romance. I think the fall of Viconia de Vir into Shar's shadow is a tragic tale that wasn't told here....but the tale they DID tell was an interesting one. and we're given enough hints of the tricks Shar may have played on her. might as well complain that they included Edwin with no mention of Edwina....or for not mentioning what the heck happened to Aerie or some of the other longer-lived characters from BG2.
pretty silly since she wants you to kill her
Just because she wants you to kill her, doesn't make her less evil. It's still your Oath to bring her to justice, regardless of what she wants or if she would repent.
@@StabYourBrain justice is subjective
I never knew this dialog was there, is this by killing all the other mobs first?
Yes
I think most of us that spare her do so because of BG2, where she could be turned to be good eventually. But clearly that was not the case here, if you had no BG2 knowledge of her, i have a feeling she would be dead many times over. In any case I think an option to imprison her or something in your camp would have been good lol. At least for some fan service where you can talk to her from time to time. Have shadowheart prod her with sticks or so.
She has loot, she dies.
@aethertech you can loot her before she dies, if you knock her out you can loot her.
extra work, she just dies.@@Luftwaffe1O1
Nah, I spared her cause killing her was exactly what she wanted
Yeah, you mustn't spare Viconia. As a Vengeance Paladin you have ti kill her :D
This is what happens when larian takes the classic characters from the originals and butchers their character.
It's mostly a Wizards of the Coast decision.
@@dank_K_knight Larian has a history of making old characters into bosses, its nothing new to them.
@@dank_K_knight And Larian is also at fault for the assassination of sarevok and viconia its not only wotc.
I spared Ethel because +1 permanent stat and broke my Ancients oath.
That at least makes sense since the oath of ancients makes a bit clearer then vengeance that sparing a creature like Ethel. Hells, I chose the oath of protection? Since I could break it early on by freeing Lae'Zel. Though I wish you didn't have to pay an additional fee if you're an oath breaker (1000 gold) plus the standard fee before respecing your character.