Better Games Fail Better | Cold Take
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- čas přidán 20. 11. 2022
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Sebastian Ruiz returns for another episode of 'Cold Take' to discuss why better games fail better.
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This video perfectly expresses the different feelings I get when dying in different games. "Dang, let me try again" vs "Well that was lame" is hard to pinpoint why I feel one vs the other.
When I play Hades, I feel the first thought; Despite every death, no matter how far I get, being sent back to the very beginning, I always feel like I'm moving forward when in reality it should be more like the endless torchures of tarturus.
But when it comes to other games, I feel the second because it just feels like the game is just messing with me or being ridiculously unfair; like when an enemy suddenly pulls an overpowered attack from its butt, my ingame charater being stuck on the smallest of things, or the general gameplay not gelling with me for some reason. I just feel stuck...
Ironic how a game that built around the idea of be subjected to repeated failure, is more fun than failing to a part that shouldn't be difficult...
For me it depends on how well the game is made, like the core systems that lead to my failure. if they're too flawed (Like with shoddy hitboxes, one sided mechanics or so on) the failure feels less enjoyable because it feels like my failure was less MY failure than it was just the game trying to screw me over/the issues were entirely out of my hands.
Whereas when it's clear it was entirely my own mistakes which lead to my loss, it feels good because then I know it was down to me and my own skill, and I know exactly what to do to improve.
I think it has to do with the experience leading up to the death. Whether it's telegraphed that there's something you could've done differently (and still be having fun), and how punishing the loss is.
Losing a mission in Deep Rock Galactic, most of the time, I have a good time doing it. Sure, I *could* blame my team (if I have one), but ultimately, if you play well enough, you can carry three greenbeards through any difficulty. The loss doesn't lose you much time, you probably learn something, and at the end of the day you probably went down in a blaze of glory killing piles and piles of angry bugs.
Getting sunk in Sea of Thieves, though -- that can be utterly random, senseless, and a huge loss of time. And often, what you could've done differently isn't all that clear, aside from leaving someone on the boat to just sit there and watch the horizon so you don't get ambushed.
@@nathanjereb9944 Hades is the perfect example, because it really should feel bullshit. You have 100 enemies all at once and dying means you start all over again.
But it's not, and I think the key part is that in Hades you die through compounding mistakes. It's not 1 big mistake that kills you, it's 20 small ones. You can see where you went wrong reasonably.
In other games, you make 2 small mistakes and you die, or 1 medium. You never really feel like you "deserved" to die there, you can't see the logical chain of events that lead to your death because all you see is that 1 attack you let hit you or a single poorly timed dodge.
@@bye1551 if I may add to this, In hades dying dosent exactly mean you're starting "all over again".
As you progress through the game defeating enemy's and completing challenges you are awarded with "darkness" which is an expendable currency that can be spent on permanent upgrades that apply to subsequent runs. (Which in my mind counts as definitive progress)
In addition the story of the game continues developing with new cutscenes, character interactions, and plot beats regardless of the success of your attempts. So it never feels like the game begins to stagnate.
You could offend a hundread people and still make it sound like a compliment with the way you talk. Your voice is just cherry on top
The Yang to Yahtzee'd Yin. Yahtzee could give the most lovely compliment, and still sound like he hates you.
This series has immediately joined my must-watch set of subscriptions.
immediately feels like a core part of the channel already. i had no idea it was a new series.
This really makes me wish I could subscribe to playlists. I would want to see these, 3MRs and maybe one or two more. But The Escapist puts out a lot of stuff that shows up in my feed that I don't watch.
@@Paxtez We wish that was an option too. Hopefully YT makes it happen at some point.
@@theescapist You could bring back RSS feeds for the individual Escapist series. That would helpful! =)
Couldn't agree more.
The golden fowl made me howl with laughter. Yahtzee has conditioned me to expect that gag at face value, so shout out to Frost and the editor for the sheer hilarity.
I was like "why are there so many lines" haha
"Failure. No, not you."
God damn it, hurt me more frost!
“Conversationalist” at the end killed me 🤣
'The Fragrance of Dark Coffee' , such a great tune. I'm slowly playing through the Ace Attorney trilogy on Xbox, and always let the game linger when Godot's theme comes in.
Came down here to comment on the use of Godot theme. So good. My college study mix go-to was that, a 10 hr crackling fireplace loop, and a 10 hr thunderstorm loop on top of each other.
Really like the style and flair of this new series, the noiresque vibe of this one was a great idea. Also the substance is really strong analysis. Great job frost, look forward to more of this series at the escapist!
Yahtzee said in his Extra Punctuation on "Prey" that our memories can't grasp perfection, so the perfect game becomes un-memorable, like how nobody noticed his class' best student until he ended up with a prosthetic testicle from a soccer injury.
I don't know how he manages it, but this gem of a human being is simultaneously one cool cat and one sly dog.
Dogs and cats, living together, mass hysteria!
Noir and ludonarrative dissonance go hand in hand. I know a lot of the Escapist staff doesn't quite have the time for Dwarf Fortress, but it might pique your interest to hear that in the official Dwarf Fortress wiki, losing redirects to fun.
What made me click so much with DS was when I go awol for 2 months, my friends jokingly asking me if I have gone hollow.
Suddenly it rains on me even their death & failure mechanic was philosophycal designed in Dark Souls and so integral to the game itself. There is no alternate time line, we all playing in our own linear time line when we fail the game the moment we stopped playing, and thus gone hollow just like our own characters in game.
Very rarely (if any) modern games even bother to design something so fundamental to playing as a video game character yet the impact of it is so profound to immersion and suspension of beliefs that we're playing a video game.
One of my favorite moments in any video game is when I realized that I wasn't actually THE chosen undead but A chosen undead, I was just the most recent one that hadn't gone hollow yet.
I need a three-way-show/podcast between Marty, Yathzee and Frost, that sounds like a fun listen
It would literally be a conversation between Phoenix Write, Godot, and Edgeworth from the AA series
@@noizepusher7594 HOLY HELL, YOU'RE RIGHT, THAT'D BE AMAZING
Yahtzee and Frost are too much a like so the chemistry would not be there, I saw their stream....booooring. Jack and Yahtz or Frost would work fine.
@@RejectAllCookies13 Really? Wouldn't have thought of that. Maybe because Yathzee is usually more high octane in scripted videos. It could maybe work in that context. Or maybe they'd just bounce off each other better with Marty there too
@@Eliagiulio Yahtzee needs a chipper and positive cohost to contrast against to really shine in a multiple host setting. If the other host is also chill or critical, he doesn't really light up much.
Keep the cold takes coming, Frost.
One area of failure I had to deal with recently is failing in a multiplayer co-op scenario. More specifically running dungeons or boss encounters in an mmo. Final Fantasy 14 was my first step into actually being social in an mmo and that's because I quickly learned that screwing up never really had huge consequences. I always had the idea of letting my party down hanging over me but after dying mid-dungeon and then getting raised by the healer with nothing more than a funny quip I wasn't as anxious anymore. Even after my first party wipe the reaction from the party was just "ok let's do that again but not die this time." Though I was running dps at those times and since there's always a minimum of two of us there was always some shadow of "well I'm the less important one so maybe that's why they don't mind" in those situations. Then came the first time I ran healer. We go out, tank gets ahead of me, dies because I couldn't heal him, all the mobs he aggro'd slaughter the rest of us, group wipe because I wasn't keeping up with the tank. We respawned and the tank just gave me some friendly advice and we managed to clear the dungeon without any further issues.
So what I want to know is, why was everyone so cool about it? Whether I was just a one-off death, part of a wipe, or the cause of a wipe I never faced any negativity from the other players. I think there's two parts to it but I'm not sure they tell the whole story. First off, low risk and high reward. You get your main reward just for clearing the dungeon with the game not caring how well you do in the dungeon. So the only thing you'd be making another player lose out on is time, though I totally can see some players being jerks over that. But then the commendation system kicks in. At the end of the dungeon you're allowed to reward any one player in your party a commendation and earning enough of these grants you some very nice, very exclusive rewards. Nobody in their right mind would hand one out to a player that treats them like dirt so it's a way to incentivize playing nice. Now I do think there's bound to be more to it, but keeping your players friendly towards each other in the face of failure is something crucial if you want players to be able to trust each other.
The Art of Failure by Jesper Juul is a great book on this topic. For my 2 cents, I'd say that until you fail for the first time there is no way to have any perspective on the game, its rules or the world it resides in. Everyone thinks they want to be One Punch Man, but what they really aspire to be is Mumen Rider.
Mumen Rider is where meaning lives.
I love the fact that Frost fully imbraced the "sexy jazz" voice.
This was really, really good! The style is what makes it. Another great show in the new era of the channel. Keep up the good work!
Wow this is amazing..! The noir gimmick is excellently executed and the content is supreme. Well done! I'm definitely adding Cold Take to my rotation of Escapist content to look out for!
i really am enjoying this slower more methodical approach to talking of various gaming topics and the noir elements only make it so much smoother of an experience. Really cant wait for more of these to come out
This was a great start to a new series. Informative and entertaining in equal measure. I look forward to more of these little bits
these cold takes are so well written and narrated. pls do more :)
I don't come to escapist for much, mostly Zero Punctuation, but this, this is something special. I'm really enjoying Cold Take.
that Ace Attorney music at the end was nice
So excited to see you on here Frost. Looking forward to more
How apropos that Careless Whisper played at the beginning of the video, cuz it plays in my head every time Frost speaks
That ending line was gold. This was relaxing and informative with a dash of humor. Great stuff 👍
the thing about dark souls difficulty that makes it so fun and rewarding that people dont get a lot of the time is that its not just about the excitement of beating a boss that seemed impossible, its about fighting that seemingly impossible boss and at some point realizing "oh, i CAN do this." THAT'S what makes it so fun. if you just throw a hard thing that actually is unfair at the player they wont be happy at the end. they'll just be glad they don't have to do that anymore.
Again love this episode and series. Keep them coming.
This series has been saying what's been on my mind for years that I couldn't quite articulate very well into words to express them. I love it.
Loooooooovveeee this format, keep it up!!!! Great new addition to the escapist and totally fits in with the vibe.
Man oh man this is some of the most premium VO and writing. Thank you!
I'm so glad to see another one of these. My new favourite series!
I enjoy when my failure seems fair, ie when I can point to mistakes in my gameplay or choices that lead to my failure, I don't often drop a game in the middle of playing it but something that will make me not want to keep playing is experiencing something that feels unfair; a boss or puzzle that I can't find a reasonable way of winning even after I have taken a break or tried to find other strategies. I think its a balancing act making something difficult but not unfair
I'm really liking this new series. Also loved the CP77-noir look.
Love the series Idk how I missed it when it was first uploaded. Please continue this awesome series
I'm falling deeply in love with this series
I love this. Hope it catches on. Keep it up Escapist
These videos are pure solid gold. Bravo.
"failure in... game design" [spy on screen] absolutely murdered me
Okay the points raised about games and challenge, and all that is great, and I do agree with a lot of the points raised. I think Challenge and Failure needs to be a a part of game design, to test the player on something if they don't know it, and then later challenge them on it to ensure they know it.
But good god this voiceover. Absolutely marvelous. I could listen to this guy talk about the intricacies of making yarn and it would be a good time. I'm sure its effort to put on that voice, and I can sympathize with that but it is so worth it. Just, wonderful to listen to. More of this please, its so good.
I like this new show! The delivery is pretty relaxing and soothing and the writing is insightful enough to hold my attention! Will definitely be coming back for more
Loving this series!
another banger, these vids have only been getting better and better since this guy joined
this new series is absolutely fantastic
Finally! Someone other than Yahtzee I actually want to listen to! Might throw money at you guys soon! Keep it up!
I love this series man. Beautifully crafted points and just the right amount of funny to take some of the sting out of the truth. Cheers Frost 🍻
Great stuff!
Man... I enjoyed this a lot more than I thought I would. It's quite conversational
Once again, beautiful writing. Thanks for delivering an enthralling script.
the last line was just the perfect way to end the video. I will watch this video series's career with great interest
Fantastic work! This might be the best new video game series on the channel since ZP.
yay, episode 2!!
This is exactly the way they talked in the training videos at KFC when I was a teenager
Really enjoying the Cold Take!
Excellent execution of writing and performance. Looking forward to more of these.
I was unsure because the title for that first episode seemed like the most pretentious thing I could imagine but I was totally wrong, love it so far. Feels like a lot of game chat tends to gloss over the surface and give you context "whats here" but youre able to actually dig deeper into "what does this being here mean" in a way thats genuinely really satsifying to listen to and learn from. Looking forward to more!
If you haven't, the first video is more about the difficulty of getting people to play even good games (just because there's so many of them constantly coming out)
Love this new series
Turnabout Jazz Godot's theme is *perfect* for this! :D
you're really hitting your stride with these. nice!
Brilliant.
I love these cold takes. Thank you escapist.
This is good. More of this please
this is fantastic
Thoroughly enjoyable delivery!
The end song was Fragrance of Dark Coffee for those wondering.
Ludonarrative Dissonance
I swear that is the red headed stepchild of video game commentary.
Come for the voice, stay for the writing
Absolutely fantastic! This is a hit for sure
Me: Imagine a 1940s noire detective with a voice like a whiskey flavored cigar.
Sebastion: I got you fam.
Frost you are amazing! Love this series and all the insights!
Keep these coming, omg
I could hear you talk about nothing for hours, what a joy it was to watch this video!
I feel like this is one of those elements in games design that is so so obvious when highlighted and yet so easy to miss when you're not looking to find (or implement) it.
these cold takes warm the cockles of my.... heart
We need more Cold takes
This video reminds me a bit of the feeling I get when I'm barely scraping by in a game. Just an inch above failure, but I also have my hand on the edge of success. Nothing feels better than winning just barely, and on the other side, it feels so horrible to lose right as the ultimate clutch was tangible.
One of, if not _the_ biggest moment of catharsis I had from a game was Journey. You know the bit. And in that game you literally can't fail; there is no failure mechanic (other than not progressing, of course)...
This was thoroughly enjoyable
love this take
I went on this expecting that analyst guy who does the Sidebar bits.
But then my ears were met by the smooth, dulcet tones of Sebastian Ruiz.
Gah DAYUM this guy's voice is butter to my ears.
So happy you’ve got a new home here 🎉missed that voice
One of my new favorites! God that voice
This was very enjoyable. Very astute too.
What a great rumination on videogame design.
These are very good
You sir are a gem!
Does this guy do audiobooks? Christ his voice is like butter
Ah! Wham's "Careless Whisper" plays at the beginning! Good gangster talk! :D
Please keep making these
I’m so glad we got a frost video like this, missed this
I like using TF2 as an example of accidental design.
Two different modes of movement which feel amazing mastering it, and the feed back from other players makes it even better. Blast jumping, and trimping.
Both work using the wonky source engine physics to achieve a similar result. Players arriving from unexpected angles at incredible speeds.
That feeling after practicing a trimping spot, and flying into a critical hit which sends the enemy's head flying while the demo man screams "There can only be one!" and the enemy team panics as they find a mad man in their midst.
However, you have to fail so much to get to that point.
To unlearn holding w, or movement keys.
To learn to use the camera to turn.
To learn how to properly air strafe.
All comes together in one shocking display of skill, with your dude flying through the air in a Bonzi charge. Even if you die, you feel satisfaction in accomplishing a difficult task l, at least part way.
Loved it.
Failure can be fun. Ever played the crash events in the Burnout series? Although you want to get that high score, falling short just means you get to create a bit more mayhem at that location before more action-packed racing or another chance to turn your vehicle into a projectile.
Good stuff
Cool concept
As for difficulty in games, the idea that it brings forth trial and error makes the experience all the more worthwhile because it comes with the design of the whole game that nothing really feels like padding. I think most who like to go back to retro games is because of this, back when games were shorter in length but expected to be replayed by their natural learning curve.
This is good. I like this a lot 👍
I like the way you jazz Mr Frosty
thank you for the video
What's the jazzy music at the end? I don't remember where it's from?