There's an Art to Making Unlikable Characters | Cold Take
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- čas přidán 12. 03. 2023
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This week on Cold Take, Sebastian muses about how developers craft unlikable characters.
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That's the great thing about Doomguy and why he works as a character. The little details paint him as thoughtful, he has a plan he's working through, anger is just how he gets from Point A to Point B.
Something else I think makes him work is that he never comes across as trying to be cool, either to other characters or to the PLAYER. He just does his thing, and barely cares about how anyone else perceives him. You can't talk him out of his intent, you can either get out of his way or get in his way, and he's happy with both possibilities.
He's also got a moral core, oddly enough. When Hayden is talking up his motivations and grand plans to help people in the elevator in Doom, Doomguy pointedly looks at the dead schlub next to the display as if he's saying, "Yeah, how's that working out for people who aren't you?". He's not happy with dead civvies.
He heard: Anger is better than fear
And went: Righto!
@@DrakeBarrow He also makes the choice to save VEGA by making a backup despite this taking up time that could be spent turning demons into OSHA violations. That's not something the game lets the player choose either, it is *entirely* his decision made without outside input such as a button prompt. He recognizes that VEGA is a hapless party to events and does his best to help in the only way he knows how.
Idk but i never percieved doom slayer as that angry. He does break monitors and filters in 2016 in an angry way, but who wouldnt. The way he glory kills demons doesnt really come of as an angry god, its more like being creative with your kills, like the predator or something.
And especially in DOOM Eternal, the way he uses his blade, its not really anger, its really stylish how he cuts them up.
He would come of as much more angry if all glory kills were like berserk kills.
Forspoken's protagonist (and overall game design) reeks of 15 corporate suits gathered around a table asking each other "how can be appeal to the kids?"
typical design by committee
She's a perfect template for the "How do you do, Fellow Kids?" meme
@@nokturnallex2160 How do you do, fellow disadvantaged urban youth? (Please do not look up my early life section on Wikipedia)
@@WiseIsWise And then the kids turn around from their game, whose MC is a dorky white guy with a guitar and a robot kitty cat. And the corporate suits stomp on their hats, making grumbling noises like Dick Dastardly.
Idk, the exploration seems like a high point but everything else is god awful, still a 0/10
the funny thing is "save the cat" is literally a screenwriting cliche with a book named after it for how to get a scene in that endears the audience to the protagonist. but in Freys case it doesent work.
Because it's metaphorical. If Frey say gave her money away, going against her best judgement and her self-centered impulses, like giving the money to a friend who needed it to escape an abusive relationship or to a street kid like herself who wanted to go meet with their remaining family... that would work. That would also both set up why the gang would realistically go after her (because she didn't return the money for a failed job) and why she has a fresh hangup for trying to help others (since the last time she helped others resulted in her being targeted).
That isn't the advice, though. In Snyder's structure from the book, the protagonist saves the cat before page 10 of the script, i.e. before the "catalyst" where the character has to make the choice to embark on their journey. The premise behind "save the cat" is to make the character likeable as soon as possible. In a film, the beat for this will typically happen before the 15 minute mark. Forspoken doesn't employ Save The Cat correctly because we see way more of the character's unlikeable traits for a long time before the cat gets saved.
The whole point of the advice is that it's a cheap way to get the audience on the character's side as soon as possible. It doesn't work if it takes an hour to get there.
@@TPNYC So in superhero films, that would translate to the hero doing an act of heroism and saving people before the story moves on to the "main plot", the big supervillain threat.
Guess I'll now be keeping an eye out for the "save the cat" moment in future movies and shows I watch.
@@Catalyst375 For sure. Basically, what it REALLY means is getting the audience to LIKE the protagonist. Showing an act of unnecessary kindness is just a very direct way to do that. The scene Snyder references as an illustration of the concept is an early scene from the Pacino thriller, Sea of Love, where Pacino, a cop, lets a parole violator he's about to catch off the hook because the parole violator has his young son with him. In Snyder's telling, it happens when you introduce the character. But the larger point is that it's a writer's responsibility to make the audience LIKE the character enough to follow them for the journey.
In games, writers don't necessarily have to Save the Cat because mechanics can overcome a grating character. Bulletstorm could be played on mute, for example.
"She has a gun pointed to her head and her weapons of choice sass and pocket sand" 😆
Great stuff Frost! I always enjoy these.
Shadiversity recently covered pocket sand and its relative usefulness, as well as historical accuracy. Maybe it wouldn't be too useful with the barrel of a handgun pressed against your throat (and surrounded by three other hostiles), but it doesn't mean it can't be helpful.
"Pocket sand! Sha-shaah!" - Dale Gribble
I think one reason I've loved the Yakuza/Like a Dragon games so much is that they seem to intentionally deconstruct the wise-cracking tough guy trope. Yes, Kiryu is a tough guy, but over the course of six games you find out he's only a tough guy because he has to be and that really he is a loyal naive father figure who'd rather have a dance off against Michael Jackson, drive a cab to protect his daughter, and run a real estate empire instead of run the most powerful crime family in Japan. Even Majima, the ultimate wise cracking tough guy is shown to be using his craziness as a mask to hide his true softer and serious side. It's a great satire mixed with parody that still leaves me loving the characters. The new guy, Ichiban, completely casts aside the "tough guy" act from the beginning and instead hangs out with homeless guys and social outcasts assembling a group that can only be described as "My Little Yakuza: Friendship Magic".
Yakuza's strength really does lie in its ability to show how *realistically* flawed all these characters are. I love the way that Kiryu always follows his heart and does what he feels is right despite that fact that doing so has blown up in his big, dumb face more than once. I love a character that just straight up makes mistakes, but does so in a way that feels realistic for them rather than a mistake that simply defies all logic. I feel like some writers approach making a character like, "We have to give them flaws because flaws = interesting," but that leaves them totally one dimensional; the character ends up as an amalgamation of flaws and nothing more. They should instead be asking, "What sort of flaws could a person like this have, and how could they be emphasized/overcome over the course of the game?" and work from there.
I’m not an expert, but here is my opinion anyway:
You can have a main protagonist be vile, profane, lack a sense of humor or even frustrating.
But they cannot be annoying.
They have to be likable enough that the customer is not merely willing but will enjoy staring at their butt, over their shoulder, or out of their eyes for the duration of the game.
The longer the game, the more likable they have to be, even if you are just liking seeing them fail.
Another criticism I heard about P-3 was that he's not just abrasive and unpleasant, he's also as _thick as pigshit._ Like, painfully dumb to the point where he can't see the blatantly obvious when it's staring him in the face. Which would be pretty damn annoying for the player controlling him, being forced to do obviously-stupid things while knowing they're a dumb idea because the character is fully on-board with them, without even the excuse of "Would you kindly".
Spec Ops: The Line is a great example of this. You do some pretty fucked up things while playing as Walker, but he never comes off as annoying.
My favourite part of the little i've seen of Forspoken, when the allegedly streetsmart sass machine is being accused by some medieval spears all around you court with being in cahoots with demons, and when asked where is she from instead of saying some vague things like far away, or other world, feels the need to pinpoint her home as Hell's Kitchen.
P-3's "sass" was also quite strange from a KGB officer, being that of a tool with everyone would've got someone executed or sent to bad parts of Syberia really fast back in the day.
P-3 gave me the vibe of someone who knows he's in the boss' pocket, and who flaunts it constantly. He knows he's there for the big man and that he's better than everyone else, even when he's the biggest daudling moron there
Do not underestimate the ability of 'secret organisations' to provide highly fraternised environment that breeds weird entitled dudebroishness.
This is the video that broke me out of my Escapist Yahtzee bubble. Excellent video, excited to see more Cold Takes.
Same here. It's been like 10 years and I'm really pulled in by something now.
Watch design delve too. JM8 makes great stuff
design delve is pretty enjoyable too. They've been getting more good creators over the last few years
Same. I think Extra Punctuation was a step to grow the Zero Punctuation-Yahtzee bubble likely helped to get this recommendation
Same
You're right about everything you said about P-3, and I have no justification for this, but I honestly like him. I like my protagonists with more personality and less projection, and even if his anger is usually misplaced, I get more character from P-3 in three sentences than I do from the last seven stoic, vaguely-grumpy protagonist men combined (excluding Kratos, before anyone says it). P-3 is pissed off everything is going wrong, but he's also a dork whose catchphrase is "Crispy critters."
As someone who doesn't know shit piss or fuck about storytelling:
"Character development" isn't "developing a character from nothing", it's "one character developing into another". You still have to have a character at the beginning. (With some exceptions, of course, but it's harder to pull off the exception than the rule)
My biggest problem with frey is that she doesn't grow as a character and remains a horrible person 90% of the game.
This is one of the things about Ezio and Altaïr in their respect AC games - they start out very self-involved, but the events of the game force them to look outwards - Altaïr to re-examine the people he trusted, and Ezio to avenge the people he loved.
*100% of the game
It's the same with P-3 from Atomic Hearts. He doesn't change and doesn't care about the story in the game.
Frey might not be like-able (which is highly subjective) but I fail to see how she's a "horrible" person.
Frey has more character development than P3. Frey actually does have it, while P3 doesnt have it at all.
Personally i was expecting a Immersive sim style silent protagonist in Atomic Heart. Like the ones in most of the Shock games or 2017 Prey.
Or at least the kind that speaks during story segments but stays silent for most of the game-play. Like in Thief games or Dishonored or the Metro games.
I know its not the choice the character, devs or writers wanted but the fact that you can't grab the money in the intro first as a choice is one of my issues small issues with the game, I think most devs would know their players would try that choice so it would've been neat to have some sort of pay off for trying to do that rather than Frey just saying "gotta find my pet first"
It should've been a choice. Have the bag of money and the cat at opposite sides of the apartment. You have to make a choice on which to save and which to sacrifice.
Insufferable characters are usually played by charming actors, like Hugh Laurie and Peter Capaldi
This is like your cool Texan uncle giving you a lecture on video game design while putting something on the grill and cracking open a cold one, and I did not know I needed that until now.
(If this is not, in fact, a Texan accent, you're free to correct me. I'm not American, but I do want a Southern uncle now.)
His voice is largely accent less, with perhaps a small tinge of something from New England or the Northern Midwest
@@cassun603 what is that melody in his speech though?
@@theatomiclemon1 Just his natural timbre. A Southern or more specifically a Texan accent would be characterized by certain vowel sounds, e.g. elongated I (eye) sounds - "laike" instead of "like", among others.
I'm sure Dr. Geoff Lindsay has a video about Southern accents you could check out to learn more, he does an excellent job explaining the subtle differences between accents.
@@gmdille Thanks!
His voice sounds middle America, which is known for basically having no accent at all. There's just the tiniest bit of northeast coast, like the other person mentioned.
When i saw in reviews how P3 was annoying to a lot of people i was bracing myself to hate him, but i overall found him tolerable when i played, sometimes sharing his frustrations with the game design and enjoying some of the less angry moments where he talks to Charles and actually questions all the stuff going on around him since i find the world interesting
If the point of 'a video-game character stuck in the wrong game' and almost breaking the fourth wall with critique to the game's developers sounds like an interesting concept, you should go and play 'The Hex' (less than a tenner on Steam)
God I love your writing and your narration style. Listening to each video makes me have a weird feeling like I'm working your points in the video out in my own head, but you are somehow guiding me. Truly stellar and I look forward to them every time.
I would be interested in story rewrites for both Forsaken and Atomic Heart. Specifically:
In Forsaken, Frey should have had the money bag with her when she went to the other world. She would’ve had to protect it and worry about it the entire time and get it back if it got stolen. Then, when she decides to stay, she can burn it herself.
In Atomic Heart, definitely dial back on the Major’s personality. He does not need to talk that much or be this lame. And does the end villain have to be like every other evil robot ever?
This is speculating from the outside since I haven't had the misfortune of playing Forspoken, but I kinda wonder if the cat rescue falls flat partly because it doesn't feel in-character. From the little I saw of her she honestly DOESN'T seem like someone who would prioritize her cat over a sack of stolen money.
Agreed. I don't mind characters who talk, but it really depends on how it's handled. There are ones who talk too much and make rather banal observations I'd already made (Aloy) and the ones who are too quippy (Frey). Then there are ones who do talk aloud but aren't annoying af about it. Booker Dewitt makes observations and comments throughout BioShock Infinite, but he isn't annoying about it and he's not doing it constantly. I typed that before you mentioned him in the vid, btw. I really like Dewitt. He fits the game and the situation, and while I did have a good idea of how it would end, it really was something else to see Booker come to the realization about Comstock and how things would end. Cal Kestis in Jedi: Fallen Order is a bit too chatty but it somehow isn't all that annoying to me, and I'm not sure I can explain why he isn't annoying and the others are. Cal does do most of his talking to BD-1, which helps. Aloy just talks aloud to herself and I already do that when gaming. I don't need the character I'm playing as also making comments that I either already made or felt no need to make.
What's described with Atomic Heart's P-3 makes me think the devs made an assumption about what the players would and wouldn't like and decided to have the guy do the complaining for them. Like, "players don't like hacking a ton in games, so let's get P-3 to complain about it for them", instead of just letting the player form their own opinions about hacking or whatever.
At the time I first played Horizon Zero Dawn, I found Aloy's chattiness to be rather justified and understandable given her upbringing. She didn't grow up around others and just had Rost to talk to. We see early on that many of their interactions were lessons. Aloy's repeating what she's learned from her surrogate father and putting it to use. By the time I got to Forbidden West, though....while most of her chatter was fine, I was frequently irritated by her constantly stating the obvious, or telling me what the solution to a puzzle I just reached was. Dunno if her writing changed significantly between games or if my tastes changed but I was severely disappointed by her character in FW when I previously enjoyed her in ZD.
@@jedimasterpickle3 I liked her in HZD at first. The beginning when she's a kid is great. I like how they made her stumble and be a bit unsteady just how young kids can be when they get going too fast and all. The trials part was also good. I should have expected it, but i was a bit bummed when they killed off the one girl she was making friends with and the boy who seemed to be coming around abouy her. I knew about Rost ahead of yime, so that didnt surprise me. I even liked the first quests and all. I then got roped into helping one group take out bandits or whoever. It went okay until I needed to clear 2 small camps to the south and north of the main camp in those stadium ruins. The guys I was helping were damn near useless at drawing aggro or killing anyone. Fighting humans plus machines got annoying as well. I took a break for 2 or 3 months and when I went back to it I realized that I was somehow both bored and stressed by it and have had no desire to try and finish the game. I think I started thinking too hard on it and little issues started piling up. I got it for free during one of the Play At Home specials, so I can't be too annoyed given I didn't buy it myself or anything.
@@SolaScientia Yeah fair enough. Fighting humans has never really been the series' strong suit. Friendly NPCs are a bit better in Forbidden West, but I dropped that game. Aloy became insufferable and I disagreed with the plot justification for the sequel anyway. Plus inventory became a hassle.
@@jedimasterpickle3 I knew I wouldn't like the sequel given that I couldn't finish the first one. When I dropped it I was honestly also sick of the machines. I feel that they crammed too much in the world. I felt like I couldn't ride more than even a couple of minutes without running into yet another herd to either ride right through or stop and fight. Fighting them didn't feel worth the effort and fighting on the back of the hacked mount was a right pain in the ass too.
@@SolaScientia Ah yeah the mounts are not good for combat, but I never really thought they were meant to be anything more than a quick way to get from point a to point b. Interesting criticism about how dense the world was with machines, though. Never heard that one before.
I loved Geralt but I've seen a lot of criticism against him as a protagonist, I think because they wanted both a blank slate to allow choice and an established story simultaneously
Yea I feel there's a happy medium that can be created allowing the player character to actually have personality and still be capable of choice. It's just hard to actually accomplish it.
Geralt can't ever be a blank slate, hes a very well established character in a long series.
I have some criticism about the games world design, but not Geralt.
I hate semi-blank-slate characters. I actually don't think Geralt is too big an offender on this list, but ironically the one I would consider the absolute worst is made by the same Developers. V from Cyberpunk. They have that perfect mix of just enough personality that you cannot project yourself onto them, yet so little personality they utterly fail as a character in their own right. Also what little personality they have is shit. Cocky, headstrong, and stupid. Worse still is that the flimsy plot hinges on you wanting to save this character's life, which, hell no. Let them die and either give me a blank slate or a real character, and while you're at it give me a real plot.
In P3's defense; he has brain damage. In Frey's defense...idk...she's from New York or something.
I slightly think P3 got better in the second half of the game, it focussed more on his altruism, while the characters he pursued were describing him as a monster hunting them only because that's what he was ordered to do, P3 gets an opportunity to defend himself by describing how he's angry at them specifically because of all the innocents who died, and when he starts to make his own decisions, it feels based on a part of his character, he truly believes in a communist ideal of supporting the people and the workers, and fights to protect it, and them.
Maybe there should have been some of that in the first half though
If we’re talking street urchins, Aladdin is one of the most well known of such beings and I’ve always found it funny that depending on who you ask, he’s either a cool dude that exemplifies the “crook with a heart of gold” archetype or declared as the worst character in his own movie and I can kinda see where either side is getting on about. Ain’t no good arguments for Forsaken’s main lass.
P-3 is like an war bear, being order to perform at circus. He is confused, he is mad, but he can't work it out other than treating everyone "I'm gonna tear your head off!"
Also, Atomic-heart is kinda anti-traditional for a game, that's why the P-3 keep questioning about the gameplay stuff lol
I didn't know you did VA before, that's pretty cool
With a voice like his.
It would be a crime if he hadn't.
I feel like we're doing a disservice to Geralt here. There are certainly times when he is angry, but off the top of my head I can't think of any times when I felt the anger was inappropriate to the situation. Unless you go out of your way to play him as a jerk, he has a strong sense of justice, and he actually displays a pretty broad range of emotions, especially in Witcher 3.
When you play him as closely as possible to the books and follow the character development he is a very interesting and unique character
And its actually really fun
The speaker brings up a lot of really good and in-depth points. I haven't enjoyed an analysis in such awhile.
Great way to phrase it; the cat was a turing test not a likeability buff.
The music is possibly the best part of Atomic Heart, and I enjoyed most parts of the game.
I mean, of course the music is the best part. That's Mick Gordon for you. :P
The protag was the only thing I disliked, everything else is actually good imo
P-3 isn't has bad as Frey, P-3 has potential to be great character if her was given less lip service quips, more active of a role in the store and more stoic moments/protag at rest moments.
I seriously thought you were going to talk about Alex from YIIK
Not mainstream enough I believe but you are 100 percent correct Alex and most of YIIK is really written quite poorly in my opinion.
YESSSS THIS PLACE IS THE BOMB
Love everyone flipping out because Doomguy is part of this, despite you clearing pointing out he's 'the big angry dude' that is still entirely likable despite the stereotype and situation he shares with P3.
One of the best cold takes so far. Great work. Thank you.
I actually quite liked P3, his interplay with Charles throughout the story was great. His actions also seemed very reasonable given his memories, and history, and the confusion with reality not matching up with his image of reality. And to say he's only angry feels like you haven't played the game, frustrated sure, he's a soldier doing not soldier stuff.
I found him much more tolerable than Frey because at the end of the day he still felt like he was in the game world, sure he's a massive prick but having other characters rise to his bs made it better than just being a dick despite all reasoning pointing to not be
To me, the core issue is that sass and quipping is not a personality trait, its a pattern of behaviour. You can quip until the end of days and still be flat if you don't actually have any personality behind it. The Marvel characters, for example, quip all the time, but the series takes pain to establish that they are characters with depth, not just a conduit for one-liners.
I was just watching clips of Cartman. Best evil character to like.
I feel like a character can be unlikable but they have to have something else to them. In Arkham Asylum the joker is intended to be an evil and unlikable character but everyone still finds him to be the best part because he's also funny and charming.
I normally come to this channel for Zero Punctuation. This is the first Cold Take video I've ever watched. From now on, I'll watch ZP if I remember after watching Cold Take. I'm hooked.
Smooth like butter.
"I've been microdosing on quips and pop-culture references for decades..." against our will, I might add.
Huh never was able to articulate the feeling well thanks for putting it into words dude
The "remnants of an older game" point is really interesting! That's a good ol' observation there yes sir!
Hot Take: I really don't hate Major P-3...
i need a audiobook of ruiz reading children's bedtime stories please, dude's voice is like sugar, nicotine and nyquil: i cannot get enough of how his dulcet tones and smooth vernacular put me to sleep- and i mean that in the Best of ways
To be fair, I'd save my cat before money any day of the week.
She could have saved both.
Trust me, you don't need to save your cat. The reality is that when fires happen, animals know where the exits are and the instant that door or window opens, they dart out like a rocket. In general when a pet dies in a fire, it's because it was trapped and blocked, not just sitting there hanging out waiting for its owner to pick it up
@@P4brotagonist Right, but then my first thought would be to make sure my kitty ISN'T trapped or blocked.
If I'm sure they got out, then yeah...I'm grabbin the cash immediately lol.
It's quite easy to pick it up on the way by- it has a convenient carry handle and everything. And it'd be useful to smash through the glass window to get out.
That’s not the problem. The money bag was right in front of her.
All the devs had to do was relocate the bag so that it is out of reach when Frey awakens and that solves the entire problem.
There is ZERO reason she couldn’t carry the bag AND the cat. And there is no attempt to even justify it.
Do you make it to the cloud district very often?
Nothing really to say, but I enjoyed this video. Thanks for making and sharing it.
Great video
Such a good video. Why do I keep commenting and liking on these Cold Take videos and yet they never wind up on my feed?!?!?! Get on it CZcams.
Ezio WAS a jerk....then he had responsibility slammed onto his shoulders and watched his family die. Usually the expectation with someone who is a bit unlikable, charming as they may be, is that there's gonna be a pin drop where they have to change tone or things go bad for them and others.
Thanks for the video, it really shows the kind of issues that repurposed content and assets bring when not adapted to its new environment. Game development is rough, buddy
Spoilers for Atomic Heart
I kind of understand what the writers were going for with the MC. He is a man whose memories were taken away to treat his PTSD, but his free will was stolen as well. The glove he wears really dictates his actions through out the game. So the quips and call outs of anger and frustration allude to his lack of control over his life, and the missing parts of his soul.
Definitely ought to be written better to make this a bit more obvious from the start of the game.
Like making him ask his glove more questions, as if he is asking for commands, then make him shift over to frustration and scream about his situation. Something to tie in his war within his own mind to control himself.
Granted the folks who made System Shock, weren't subtle at all about any of the twists. For example, in System Shock 2, the AI's first comment to you alludes to SHODAN, and the many keeps calling her the metal mother, well before the reveal. I suppose these writers went too far in the other direction.
P-3 is infinitely more tolerable than Frey for me for one key reason: while he is an asshole that justifies himself by saying he only respects one person, he at least feels like he is invested in the game. Frey gets isekai'd and spends at least half the game like a know-it-all with zero investment in the plot, complaining about her life but also ignoring this fresh slate by demanding to go back home. P-3 feels like a modern take on Duke Nukem with utter dickitry in place of misogyny, and I can largely ignore him because the gameplay doesn't demand I pay attention to him, while in Forspoken everything is based around Frey's deus ex machina powers.
I'm genuinely excited seeing a new episode of Cold Takes pop up in my feed. Keep 'em comin, Frost!
Excellent video as always! You voiced a protagonist in a game?! Let the hunt begin. I was hoping you'd go into more detail about what makes an unlikeable protagonist likeable, maybe do a cold take using those characters you listed at the beginning and why we love them?
I love quipy laissez faire characters, and unlikeable characters but like the title says there's an art to it and it happens to be far to easy to mess up, you need to give them more then that.
I also enjoy characters who talk in games its often an easy way to grab a players attention to something but my favorite examples of this are characters who talk so little their lines outside of conversations with other characters, would fit into one paragpah.
prime examples of this are dishonored 2 and deathloop with it being more of a gameplay mechanic in death loop and dishonored they might make a observation once per level.
Nice take
Death Metal Ballet would kinda work though, I can imagine the death metal nutcracker working phenomenally for example.
If I had a nickel for everytime a game had an unlikable protagonist with awful quipy dialogue but with more cursing and the source of their abilities comes from an object on their wrist possesed by the twist villan of the story I would have 2 nickels wich isn't a lot but is weird that it happend twice
That's just 2023, too! Does this count if we extend it to that guy from Deus Ex?
@@VeritabIlIti I havent played it, but sure, another nickle it is
Dude p-3 was so uncanny as a human I loved it😂
In russian he is more calm and soft spoken but by god does the english "Crispy Critters" hit different.
@@captainblastems3367 In russian it's "Fu**ing Pies".
I just thought that if the cat just pissed on the money and somehow tore it up, but Frey still loved it anyway, I would dislike Frey a lot less over the city troubles she gets involved with.
Then as added bonus, the cat (you know which game I’m borrowing this sequence from) manages to avoid being trapped or ambushed by the final boss and actually does some significant trolling to mess up the boss so Frey can beat him up.
I think that should provide ONE and only ONE needed nuanced flaw and everyone could work with that.
Are you the guy who did the reading for the Mass Effect codex?
Or the narrator for the Crackdown games?
Awfully similar tones!
Yes, P3 is like Chel from Portal 2. The characterisation comes from the assistant, They are an observer in their own game
I’d say it’s more about the devs’ miscommunication with the VA role. The guy shows more emotions insulting bots than facing a life-and-death crisis. P3 actually sounds and more humane in Russian than his garbage English dub
@@lucifermorningstar8387 oh, see I didn’t use the Russian audio, I let it run on default settings. Also, my Russian is first of all, rusty and second it’s very academic Russian.
My diagnosis is that Forspoken & Atomic Heart -characters aren't characterized/fleshed out at all. They're card board boxes carrying a sign of a stereotype, if even that. It's not enough to make someone likeable. The fact that Doomslayer has better personality is a testament to design. Who these people are & how it's presented. The story confidently presents Doomslayer who has a strong opinion about demons & is ready to act like a roided out gorilla to put an end to hell. The side-characters around him reinforces him. I'd start preaching about writers fully realizing their characters but it's not necessary. The video gets right that they need strong personalities. That carries a long way. Bland characters happen when the upper-management dictates the project & there's no designers on the team at all. It also happens in projects where programmers take the lead but don't know anything about writing stories.
Doom guy is Fly Taggart :)
About Atomic Heart. I think the problem may be in the english version of the game. I heard a lot of negativity from people who played the english version and almost nothing bad about the protagonist from those who played the russian version
I was about to comment similar! Since its release and with all the problems highlighted about the English version, I couldn't help but wonder if he comes off completely different in Russian and the intent was misinterpreted / mistranslated for the former.
That might be because when you're listening to a language you don't speak, it's a lot easier to ignore it.
How many native russian speakers or just russian speakers in general do you know that have talked about the russian VA?
@@tweda4 Much more than those who played in english. I saw only one who didn’t like the protagonist’s joke and that’s it, I didn’t see any more complaints from the russians about the va. In general, I hear most of all about this game from the russians and I see that they criticize a lot of things in this game, but I don’t remember them talking about the va or the protagonist
p-3 is a obnoxious mentally vacant shitter even in the russian dub and the only upgrade is that you're not burdened by the terrible quasi-machine translation of all the dialogue so it's harder to notice because at least the dialogue actually flows naturally instead of agonizingly grinding forward from one poorly translated quip to another
As a native russian speaker I can assure you that this problem still exist. And Major Nechaev indeed is an unlikable character.
kinda poilers here:
I feel like it's very heavily implied that P3 has developed Tourette syndrome when he was saved by Sehenov since in the last act it's revealed he's had major brain damage, which tourettes can develop from, not to mention Granny does mention later in the game on how he's different from before the op that put him with a bullet in the head. Not to mention there's a bunch of times in the game where he's arguing with Charles but ends up just cussing him out when he can't properly articulate what he's trying to say because he just get's frustrated with trying to express himself.
I would happily listen to this man read the dictionary.
He also makes excellent points about the character flaws and designs.
crispy critters...
9 minutes exactly, nice
The "Columbo" of video game analysis
In the burning building Frey won't allow the player to pick up the money. Instead she forces the player to "save the cat" before doing so, and the money is lost.
They attempted the most basic screenwriting trick (save the cat) and got it wrong. Instead of the sequence humanizing Frey, the player is frustrated at her for refusing to do the obviously correct thing.
Cat first, money second. Unless the money is closer, but if only one, it's the cat.
Am I the only one who liked P-3 ?
No I liked him as well. He's certainly better than Frey so far. That being said I've only played a couple of hours so far. I enjoy the dialogue in the game as cheesy as it is.
Agent P-3 is fine. I don’t understand the hate either.
I really liked him, thought he fit the game perfectly,
Depends in english some of his lines are just weird but I still enjoyed it while seeing why people can dislike it, While from what I played in russian (and honestly most other languages) he is more soft spoken and all around calculated. I think it goes without saying that russian is the most natural feeling.
I don't understand all the criticism of P-3. In terms of video game main characters, I thought he was above average. The voice acting was on point and he delivered some genuinely funny lines. Not once was I annoyed by him.
I wouldn't say Doom Guy is unlikable.
This immediately reminds me of the protagonist in Fairy Fencer F, typical anime prettyboy protag who pulls a sword from a stone or some other cliche and when the mystical being appears in front of him and tells him he is the chosen one destined to save the world aand collect anime waifu's, he just says "nah" and buggers off.
At first I thought this would be a cool idea, the prophesized hero who is content being a nobody even if his life appears empty to an outside viewer, despite not wanting anything to do with the plot he must be convinced to embrace his destiny, a unique-ish subversion. But no, he's just a selfish dick who has to be guilt tripped into helping save the world.
I'm sure he's intended to be an unlikeable butthole and eventually he learns to not be an unlikeable butthole, but he's just such a boorish asshole from the start, refusing to listen unless the conversation leads to him sleeping or eating and again, fairy fren has to guilt trip him into playing the game saying she'll die if he doesn't help.
tbh a plot where the chosen one actively rejects their destiny yet still ends up fulfilling it could be areally interesting comedic story. E.g. the "hero" is asked to kill a dragon, they say no and throw the sword in the trash, but then some Final Destination-style nonsense happens and the sword ends up killing the dragon anyway. Add to that the hero being an introvert and actively hating the praise and notoriety and fans and press they get; maybe even throw in some angst and despair with the hero questioning if anything they do is actually a choice or if it's pre-determined, whether they have any agency in their future, would they be happier if they embrace it etc. Heck, throw in some hobby or career aspiration or loved one that just isn't compatible with the hero life and you got some easy drama right there
Saiki Kusuo is a protagonist who actively rejects being the center of attention, despite being the strongest being in the universe. He's not really unlikeable, he has a point when it comes to certain things that happen to him. Saiki comes off as a jerk but he ultimately does the right thing in the end.
Fairy Fencer F is such a cool game that it's a shame that it remains a niche series. The sequel/remake is coming to the west eventually but sadly missing the English dub actors which I really liked.
I noticed something like this in Zelda Skyward Sword. Towards the second half of the game everyone goes on about how much of a burden Link has to take on and apologizes despite him having no evident issues with it... So if we're supposed to assume that Link doesn't actually want to be on this quest, it totally changes the tone of the game lol
@@zilesis1 that could count for Bioshock Infinite, since Booker spends most of the game going "why am I doing this" after finding Elizabeth. But that could just come down to not knowing his destiny, either
OWWWW it is called cold take because the person hosting it is called frost, how did that take me so long????
Who doesn't like THE DOOMSLAYER? He's an over-the-top angry, violent, killing machine with an irreverent sense of humor who doesn't put up with crap, and that's why we love him! Yahtzee may have brought up the relatability of THE DOOMSLAYER in his DOOM: ETERNAL review: "He's an violent, unfettered id who just wants to kill demons and collect Happy Meal toys. He IS the player of a mindless first-person shooter game."
Making a dislikable character that can be lovable is so difficult, most of them end up being just unbearable.
I really like the postal dude from postal 2. His over the top offensive and psychopathic lines are one of my favorite aspects of the game. I also think this works because everyone in that world is an insane asshole and a horrible person, though it somehow feels a lot less spiteful then shows like rick and morty or family guy.
Well Alex Mason from Black Ops IS actually voiced by Sam Worthington
I liked p3 as I switched him to Russian and also hated every puzzle
I can listen to the narrator all day long. I would listen to him reading off the dictionary.
I think the missed detail is in the story. As Yahtzee once said, it's fair to say some things are out of character for your protagonist. I'm a detective, it's why there's no cooking minigame. Frey quips because it's the only way she knows how to interact with the world. Fine. But the player is not the protagonist, they inhabit them. If they have no place in your story, you have a bad protagonist. Not due to poor writing or bad quips, the story might have been a great movie or show, but because the story doesn't consider the player is not watching the game, they are playing it.
How about instead of Frey throwing off a quip every time she sees something, give the player a button to make her do it. Suddenly the most annoying part of the character is a feature the player interacts with. Ironically this is also why Yahtzee hated Deacon St. John, he was a character who had anything better to do which doesn't acknowledge the player who wants to clear zombie nests and power-up their motorcycle. The game asks us to identify with the character, but they do nothing to identify with us. That makes them a bad protagonist.
The only people who think P3 is insufferable are people who haven't played the game with Russian audio. Not to mention the people who criticize the 'crispy critters' catchphrase because they haven't taken the time to find the in-game reason that he says it.
There's a Doofenshmirtz joke in here somewhere about nickels and two unlikeable protagonists.
This is a comment designed to increase the engagement of the video and drive it up the algorithm. I have nothing insightful to add. Keep it up.
Weirdly if you play Forspoken in Japanese and Atomic Heart in Russian they are way easier to swallow story wise.
Well duh...bad dialogue is easier to digest when you have no idea what they are saying
When I think about good gruff dickhead characters, my first thought is Vegeta from Dragon Ball and I think we can learn why he's a good version compared to a lot of other characters with similar characterization in media.
For one, Vegeta isn't an asshole just to be an asshole. He has a chip on his shoulder because of his lineage and his status as a crowned prince. His personality is an integral part of his character, how he interacts with other characters, the actions he takes in the story, and his character development. It's all driven by who Vegeta is at his core. Most mean protagonists in media don't feel like being mean is integral to their character. They easily could've been a silent protagonist and very little would've changed about the story.
For two, Vegeta makes mistakes and is punished for it on a really consistent basis. Vegeta gets himself, others, and the world at large messed up on a pretty regular basis because he's such a prick. The most obvious one is that he starts the story as a genocidal maniac and is the central villain for an entire arc. For the next arc or two, he actually plays more as a secondary antagonistic force, someone who's not aligned with the main villain, but also isn't helping the protagonists, at least, not as far as it doesn't help him achieve his goals. He actively refuses to follow what others have to say even when they very obviously understand the situation far better than he does. He lets Cell power up to his perfect form because his pride doesn't let him defeat the main antagonistic force too easily despite every other character yelling at him to do it and actively stopping others from finishing Cell off for the sake of seeing this power that couldn't *possibly* exceed his own.
For three, him being such a piece of shit is integral to his character development. Most of Z is him changing from the genocidal maniac that he starts as to becoming a genuine force for good and a family man. However, it's not a direct line, either. He fucks up massively by letting Babidi take control of him purely because he had been beaten down and humiliated too many times and tried to reclaim his old status as a genocidal maniac because he felt that it was the best path to power, a way to rival Goku's power, but is proven wrong time and again. Most of the sequel series, Super, has been about him coming to grips with his who he was in Z and atoning for his mistakes.
Lastly, I hate how most gruff meat head characters will follow the plot and characters around while the writers pretend they don't care about anything or anyone. This problem is most prevalent with almost every Rockstar protagonist, where the zany antics they get up to are completely incongruent within the fiction. They say they're too mad, too gruff, and too annoyed by the wacky characters to listen to what they have to say, but then they'll go base jumping with them anyway, or whatever. It's at odds with the no-nonsense, "fuck everyone and everything" characters they usually portray.
Too many shoddy writers try to eat their realised-character cake and have it too. They want the magical protagonist marketing juice of a fully-realised popular character and they want the selling-customisation edge of a blank slate, and assume they can have both by reducing a protagonist to a thin smear of character trait, failing to achieve either and ensuring we see the entire game through its least interesting lens.
It's funny to me that Nathan Drake was doing this song and dance years ago and was loved for it.
Wait, I thought Sam Worthington did play Mason in Black Ops? Or am I misremembering?
He does.
One pet peeve from entermainment today is when a charater is very unlikable but the story/author really wants you to like them. I mean you can like or not like sertain charaters - im not saying your opinion is invalid - but when the charater isnt well written (and/or is a liliteral asshole), and the story tries to make you like them, its going to make me like them less than if they werent claimed to be the second comming of christ
Major p3 in Russian voice is good.
I keep forgetting rockaye city is a game and not some amorphous grey blob with celebrities in it. Maybe it's just the layman consumer in me but it just looks so un focused on the game and more focused on the stars. No matter how the game turns out I'll have my popcorn ready to sit on the side and watch it all happen.
I know it sounds like a rumor but the devs have confirmed there will be Atomic Heart 2, at the moment they are making an DLC.
I absolutely love the MC of Atomic Heart. He only has to emotions: overly sarcastic and barely contained rage. And he switches between these two instantaneously. So good. xD
On the one hand - bad characters are bad and good characters are good
And I'm perfectly happy to have both...
Because a failure to make a good character can still be enjoyed - characters like Frey remind me a bit of the characters from Prototype and Infamous in that she's a horribly self-centered douche nozzle who doesn't grow and doesn't change
I'm *literally* rooting against them :P their constant egocentric behavior and fuckups are fun to watch if only because of how despicable they are - *especially* if other characters *around them* keep insisting their awesome xD
What I *don't* like is bland characters... because I experience those *far more* than good or bad characters
Think about your average UbiSoft protag - or most triple a dribble main leads... you can't. Cause they're flat - they're bland - they're boring - in an effort to make the characters as ungrating as possible - most triple a protags these days are way past ungrating
And just plain boring
And that's way worse than an obnoxious character... because I can at least *remember* an obnoxious character