Adding QUALITY To Factorio: Way More Than Just LOOT CRATES | FFF-375 "Quality"
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- čas přidán 1. 06. 2024
- FACTORIO SPACE AGE
Factorio: Space Age continues the player's journey after launching rockets into space. Discover new worlds with unique challenges, exploit their novel resources for advanced technological gains, and manage your fleet of interplanetary space platforms.
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"Now that's we've automated everything from iron plates to rockets we enter the real, real end game of Factorio: reliably producing Legendary power poles."
Chop trees with a legendary axe to get legendary wood, which improves your odds of making legendary power poles.
@@ultimoreno, no, no, you have to recycle lower quality power poles into better wood, and reassemble it into better power poles. Because that makes sense.
You only need Rare Big Electric Poles to get a 32 tile range to make the grid perfectly chunk aligned.
@@angeldude101 Oh, oh no. I have to make a factory that gets the quality high, but not TOO high. Lol
Power poles?
Concrete.... Legendary concrete.
Of course we want to hear your opinion on everything factorio,I specifically waited for this video since i value your informed and unique perspective.
Solid take, I agree.
@@xcbz9176if you are dev, please make the rarity an option in the generate world screen, and maybe lower the bonus, into the negatives for commen, just to make the mode more balanced.
What worries me immensely is the inventory. We already go around with inventory filled with items to randomly build stuff on the spot. What will happen when we have 5 tiers of every single item being collected as you walk onto a belt to collect a bunch of them? Will we have 4 items slots occupied by that handful of "Uncommon, rare, epic, legendary" iron plates? Will we be constantly need to add more boxes to store unwanted higher tier versions of items for every single object we produce? To me it feels like it breaks everything.
We all know how it will go: Tier 2, 3 and 4 will be skipped entirely, for people to jump immediately to make tier 5 stuff in a complete chain once it's unlocked. We already do that with modules.
the higher tier objects only have a chance of being crafted by machines with quality modules in them, so your main factory has a 0% chance of producing epic iron plates, don't worry. :p
given how expensive getting to t5 is, i wouldn't be surprised if t2-t4 are considered 'good enough' for a lot of use-cases. They're straight-up better than baseline machines after all, and orders of magnitude cheaper to make than the t5 machines.
I don't know if to make dwarf fortress analogy or expect the my factory start producing "LEGENDARY Used up uranium fuel cell"
This idea would be better if the devs named the qualities:
- Basic/Standard
- Efficient/Enhanced
- Advanced/Premium
- Precision/Elite
- State-of-the-Art/Perfected/Innovative
Agreed and it may just be the case that the devs used the standard terms as part of the internal build as place holders, and if not I'm sure that someone will make a mod for it .
I agree these names are better.
I like the names. I play Factorio to have fun not mirror real life.
I was going to say "crude>polished>artisan>perfected>funky(because it works unreasonably good) But your makes more sense.
Either way i agree. Calling them as if they were fantasy items is just weird.
Feels a bit like the Total Annihilation: Kingdoms switchover. Not genuine.
I haven't decided how I feel about the "quality" update yet, but I can say my first thought was "I wonder how Nilaus will react."
Same! But I think I trust WUBE, and I'm casually positive.
You don't have to feel any way about it because it's optional. It does not matter.
I was on the fence until I really sat and thought on it. It's going to create a whole new level of complexity within existing factory models. Obsessing over quality is something real factories actually do as well. I have a lot of trust in WUBE. They won't release something the community won't love
This is much easier to digest than a full blog post. I would definitely keep up with this! Thank you!
Honestly the first time I saw this I thought “wonder if Nilaus will like it or hate it”. But yes please react to all FFF until Space Age Releases.
The names are probably work-in-progress, Im sure people are already posting suggestions in the factorio forum.
It wasnt mentioned, but science packs are probably affected by quality. The optimized science production chain will probably have a mix of productivity and quality modules.
it seems that quality ingredients are guaranteed to make the product at the same tier or better, so if we can have the smelters make legendary plates, we are guaranteed all legendary production. Probably not optimal though.
some other ideas I had for using quality:
Military science uses grenades and ammo. We can make these with quality modules and save the best for clearing biters, without losing resources to recycling.
Sometimes mall production is a bottleneck. Besides speed modules, we can now use high quality assemblers.
In terms of how odd the naming feels in Factorio terms, im sure someone could easily throw together a mod to change it to quality gradings rather than rarities, like the normal ones are rough, then honed, then decent, then great, and then perfected. Or something
I think the greatest implication is that you don't have to *completely* remake every existing blueprint to make use of better buildings, you can just tweak them a bit. For example, you can make the green chip production array slightly shorter by replacing only some "common" assemblers, which may unlock more options for belt routing using that free space, and whatnot.
Great analysis. I've seen some extremely low-effort hot takes from experienced players who are all "muh ratios!" "better power poles, who cares?" "what's the point in grinding?" so I was glad to get a bit more in depth thinking from your good self, as expected. And that's why I want to continue to hear more of your thoughts on future significant updates!
So many different implications of this I’m still trying to wrap my head around!
-Higher quality productivity modules will allow us to have much bigger multipliers from raw materials to finished products
-Now we actually have a good reason to automate personal equipment, spidertrons, etc. in order to work up to higher quality
-Space platforms making you have to optimize for quality instead of base size; I heard “building tall vs. wide” and thought I was talking about Stellaris for a minute!
-Imagine challenge runs where every building of your base has to be made at the highest quality level you’ve unlocked! Seems like a good masochistic challenge for people who like Marathon mode
legendary rocket silo
Rarity naming convention should definitely be changed. For instance, Rare could be Well Tuned, or Legendary could be Master Crafted. Plenty of options that work well instead of the typical RPG standard.
This is the Legendary Power Polia, 352nd of her name, transmitter of several MW, duchess of a random patch of land between the base and an ore outpost
@@blueberry1c2 Yes.
At first I was unsure about it but now I want to play it already. It'll probably make design more interesting.
One thing I realized is it'll put direct insertion at a disadvantage. It'll make much more sense to have e.g. gears on the bus so that you can save resources by putting non-quality gears from quality production on the bus.
glad to see the commentary community trying to talk some sense into people about this the forums are on fire lol
Interesting reactions Nilaus - I bet your eyes lit up when you imagined finally having personal robots that don't run out of juice.
And kudos to the factorio Devs for giving all the people without much to say the option of bike-shedding the quality tier names. Very inclusive!
Looking forward to a whole new set of masterclasses once the expansion becomes available. This opens so many new challenges that I cannot wait 😀 I like these quick videos with your feedback on new announcements: I always learn something from you that I haven't thought of myself. So please keep them coming!
enjoy hearing your take on these. my mind blew when i read the intro of this fff, glad to hear you liked the idea too! as much as the gameplay excites me, it was especially insane to read just how long it sounds like a single dev maintained a branch of this size and kept it in sync with their main branch. kudos to the factorio team!
Have been trying to make mods with slight vertical progression for a while, but this is unique and interesting. Would be amazing if we can set our own quality in mods like Refined and it'd give a custom bonus of 45% or anything. Dynamic entity stats and custom upgrades have been a dream for me
I was looking forward to your opinion on this!
Happy to hear you're giving SE another shot! It's evolved greatly since you last tried it. Excited for all the upcoming Factorio content!
A video from you covering each of the significant FFF's would be much appreciated, Nilaus!
I guess we'll have to start refering to uranium-235 as "legendary uranium"! On the naming (rare, epic, etc) I think the devs are wise to choose something that any gamer (including casual) can understand to keep the game accessible. If not rare, epic, etc then a number/alphabet system (grade 1, B grade, etc) or using actual industrial terms are probably the way to go.
Yes please, your coverage of these blogs brings an interesting perspective.
Wonder if blueprints will take quality into account? i.e. a blueprint that requires a single legendary substation to distribute power over a wide area rather than 4 regular substations
I really enjoy seeing your reactions and hearing your insights about the FFF. Especially ones like this that have the potential to break all previous builds.
I don't this could mess anything up. The quality system is a purely postive system were it either does nothing or gives a bonus. Unless your builds are dependent on not over-producting something, it shouldn't matter. And that's nothing a simple combo clock can't limit.
When I say, "break" I don't actually mean the builds will be broken as in not working. I mean that they will be rendered inefficient and/or ineffective, and Nilaus won't stand for his builds being ineffective. :)
@@Nathr I see, but either way it isn’t much shock. It’s expected that the expansion would raise the bar on how much you can push a factory.
I just love the idea of slowly stockpiling high quality intermediate products for use in trying to make a fancy set of personal gear. It appeals to that part of my brain that already loves building big stacks of items.
Yeah, your opinions on this stuff is very valuable. You've helped so many of us on our Facotrio journey and this is a part of it.
I know, or at least think, WoW pioneered this this colour scheme, but its been used by so many other games since so clearly it's resonated with enough people for it to be a general standard at this point.
I love this system and it fits perfectly with how I play the game. I don't want to just expand my factory with larger and larger builds, I prefer to incrementally improve what I already have. This gives me exactly what I want and I love that it also leverages existing builds to steal high quality parts they produce to supply the quality factory.
Love these videos, if possible try to add a link to the post in the description / comments so we can follow along with you while you are going over it that would be super nice!
There have been mods for for Mk.2, Mk.3 etc for power armor, boilers, power poles, spidertrons, tanks, belts, reactors, inserters... basically everything. This is just a very weird way of adding RNG to the mechanics, but does do a weird balance of taking time to min-max, vs just throwing more resources at things.
Yes, love your analysis. You have extensive experience in the game, thinking about how the systems interact with unparalleled depth. This series is an easily-justifiable watch for me.
I like these videos because I can read the FFF, and a little later I can re-think about what in that and also hear some unique opinions about it and how it can affects things I haven't thought about
I was just waiting for this video. Please, if possible keep going with FF`s reaction. Thanks
Maybe I'm a bit weird, but my first thought with the recycler wasn't upcycling - it was that I could finally make barrel systems that can add/remove barrels as needed. We've had the ability to automatically build/add barrels for quite a while, but never to remove them as your factory's needs change.
(I know, I know - I should just use pipes. But sometimes I love trying to make stuff like barreling/unbarreling, sushi-belts, etc. work at least kinda effectively. :-) )
I surely want some kind of "I got Legendary Stone Brick" t-shirt, that naming really is meme material :D
Like your example with robots, I think there are places where high quality inserters would be welcome (train stations immediatelly come to mind but maybe some very high throughput blocks as well - assuming we don't get native loaders).
If belts can have higher quality, it could also help a lot in tighter areas, like production hubs or those new platforms.
Overall I think the idea is great and fits factorio really well (now we can worry about more than just quantity). I'd of course download a mod that renames quality tiers ASAP (to something more industrial like "fine", "masterwork", etc.) and maybe get one that introduces "crap" quality as well (negative bonuses) because why not.
Heck, with that it's easy to turn Factorio into some kind of looter-shooter wannabe.
Side bonus: quality mechanic will finally make me learn how to design my own uranium processing loops from scratch xD
In the case of inserters, you're still belt constrained. Higher quality belts only receive higher health.
THE MAIN TAKE AWAY THAT EVERYONE SHOULD KNOW, IS THIS IS OPTIONAL, YOU DONT HAVE TO TOUCH QUALITY TO COMPLETE ALL RESEARCH
Always love to hear your opinion on factorio. Keep it up its super interesting.
Sounds like the general consensus is the names of the quality levels need to change. Something a bit more in line with manufacturing instead of lootboxes.
I like the new quality system and your video brought another few point why it's gonna be great addition I did not think of, so its certainly cool idea to continue with them
"Oh your not going to need inserters". I think he forgot about the fact that even now some times stack inserters aren't enough. When you start dealing with Better assemblers and modules that they will NOT be keeping up, and higher quality inserters will be necessary for some of the faster recipes.
The green circuit/recycler example at 16:30 answers your earlier question about what quality parts come out of quality recycled items. If the example they are recycling normal and uncommon tier circuits. If you look at the plates and wires that come out of the recyclers, some are uncommon tier. So, yes, recycle higher tier items, get (some?) higher tier items back.
Super looking forward to the SE run! :)
I like to hear your take on FFF, I looked for your vid as soon as i found out about quality update
This channel make me love Factorio. I always want more content
Thanks for the explanation.
Completely changes how some mods would play, like warptorio. The small area of the warp platform will be somewht overcome by having legendary stuff on it.
Would love to see your opinion on the FFF, especially as WUBE have said that they're doing them regularly now
Yes. I already watched another video on it before yours. I watched this because I wanted your take.
So count that towards encouragement.
One key thing he missed out was the gif we’re two green circuit assemblers at max quality we’re able to produce two full blue belts of production with one wire assembler, using only 6 stack legendary inserters to output onto two lanes of one belt, which is probably the best example of why you want higher quality buildings and inserters.
I bet legendary substations and roboports will be super useful. Imagine covering entire assembly lines with just one substation. Maybe an unnecessary waste of resources, but it would lead to such clean designs. And of course, wider coverage or more charging ports would be amazing.
Love to hear the positive thoughts and ideas about the information.
@Trupen !! 14:00 Pistols ! ;)
You said at the end: "Your base still works, BUT IT COULD BE BETTER." That ruined my life. IT COULD BE BETTER BUT IT IS NOT. HOW AM I EVEN GOING TO SLEEP NOW?! OMFG!!
My take on reading about this was pretty simple, as someone who tends to play Factorio as a bit of an idle game at times, quality setups like they showed off, where you're recycling and trying to force higher quality components, actually works super well for that playstyle. I think it will also be fun as a self imposed challenge mode to rush and then only play with quality components from that point forward.
Conjures seablock packs to mind where the gathering of the resources isn't so much the primary issue.
I enjoy hearing your opinion on the FFF. Please continue!
This is great,but i see one problem what they didnt talk and thats oil production and quality of liquids, and idea of pipe spagety for getting better quality liquid or if they dont be high tier,them for every part of oil product(what is plastic, sulfur, battery, solid fuel and eletric motors) player must found way to get consistant legendary output
This was interesting as was the last comentary on the dlc with your viewpoint of, was it product manager? I'm probably getting it wrong, but them being flush with cash and that reflecting on the development was interesting.
Mall designs are gonna get crazy! Lots of scope for request-driven production (eg my new blueprint requires 12 common and 2 rare assemblers to hit ratios...)
Definitely eager to hear your thoughts about it. You are the Tutorial 👊
I'd love to see these when you think there's something worth talking about. Don't force yourself! Great stuff as always mate.
I really think you should cover every FFF, Nilaus. Your feedback and comments are so interesting to hear.
Literally was hoping you would react to this! Thanks for your perspective!
I'm not sure about legendary cogs but I like the general idea. Big and sprawling is fun, but it's fun with diminishing returns. Being able to go in another direction and dealing with a different type of complexity is a good addition to the gameplay.
And yes, I'd like somewhat frequent talks on their new content.
yes, please continue making these updates
It seems like they should do this at the resource level. This is somewhat like what comes out of a Bob's playthrough, but in order to have a higher quality item, you have to refine the materials more before your machines can produce higher quality items.
I believe the idea is distinctly NOT to do it like mods already do. Because we have mods that can already do that. Instead, you need a new approach and need to consider new things, instead of just adding another linear recipe.5
Copying my response to their forum.
It would be nice to see the quality concept start with resources.
It makes more sense if we have a purity concept at the raw material to help drive quality. This would position some resource patches to be more favorable than others. Blend this in with what a mod like B&A with resource refinement to help extract the better quality resources which can then be used to potentially make the better quality machine. The purity of a patch also encourages planet exploration, especially if there is some aspect of the terrain that explains the purity where it is harder to get to it. Maybe the patches produce their own pollution. Maybe they produce toxic side effects that damage the miners.
Machines aren't 100% reliable. That means that the factory should produce machines that fail. They should degrade in efficiency over time - especially if they require lubricant. We can have different lubricant efficiencies as well that are required to maintain the quality bar. The machines are also not consistent when refining resources. The better quality the machine is, the more consistent it is, and the longer it will take before it fails.
Better quality machines also support double and triple layer belt outputs. This drives us to want to find ways to make them. Of course this also means we need new belt types.
@@AndrewFreemanW, o, that's nice. Legendary copper mining outpost for modules would be great.
I think my core problem with this is that horizontal scaling will outpace the vertical scaling (barring massive nerfs to construction bots). More product is always the goal, so what virtue does vertical scaling bring?
Edit: Also keep in mind, we are still belt and pipe constrained on moving product. From the post:
"There are a few entities which don't have any bonus apart from the health, which is *belts*, *pipes*, rails, chests, combinators, walls, and lamps."
More space is free... until you get to space.
@@normalasylum is there a hard restriction in space?
@@jgrif7891 I don't know what it'll be like in the expansion, but in Space Exploration it's a pain to expand space platforms.
@@normalasylum yeah, I haven't got around to doing a full playthrough, but everyone I've seen play it says it's space is hard to expand in
One of my thoughts about this FFF was:
"This is such a burn for Nilaus thoughts on the expansion."
It was pretty predictable that all the shiny unpredictable stuff about the expansion would not be in the very first FFF about the expansion.
Glad you are exited now as well :-D
I'm very much excited to see the FULL legendary bases that will inevitably pop up. And I feel like you can go full on towards full legendary once you unlock all of the research. and once you get that, then focus on just blasting towards the highest SPM you can manage before your system turns into the 4th reactor at Chernobyl. Also give me my legendary wooden power pole
It will be interesting... I hope the implementation is good.
I love this new mechanic though. It adds so many new possibilities. Countless new ways to balance production, and ways to upscale it.
Definitely like the FFF commentary!
Item quality will have a big impact on exploration type mods the can place in pre-built "abandoned outposts". Gives a huge reason to have people go out and explore by putting high tier items out in the world to go and bring back to use maybe earlier then posable to get.
Not sure how fun quality will be, but I like the set of tools approach to the design. You can beat factorio without using lot of stuff. It's up to you to figure out your plan.
Great! Now I can forgo building a mall and build a casino instead.
Yeah this is great. I was wondering what you thought about it
I cannot wait for LEGENDARY TRAINS running LEGENDARY ROCKET FUEL
My main concern is that inventory management now just got even worse and more time in this game will be spend menuing for filter settings than it already is.
It really feels like a pet feature of one developer that they are now too deeply invested in to take any criticism on it.
I think there is a place for higher tier inserters on some production you need lots of thing in and then with higher tier production it need to get in and out faster
Only react when you find it necessary. Like this quality thing. For this subject, i was wondering what your view was.
April fool crossed my mind aswell
Your master class designs already incorporate an upgrade path, but this mechanic is going to provide so many forking paths for what parts to upgrade. Very exciting!
After assemblers and personal equipment, nuclear power and oil based production could really benefit from quality. As for the loot box thing, I imagine quality will feel a lot like the enrichment process. Automated but needing an occasional check or some circuit logic. It will feel natural after a short adjustment period.
I can't wait for the inventory chaos
@Nilaus instead of "legendary" style scle (which i agree, are more in theme for mediavial/fantasy/action stype game) you could have :
-scraped /cobbled
-standard / -
-aligned
-optimised
-quantumed / photonized / over-engineered
the name and the colours and the toolstips are explicit enough as it is, there is no need to get stuff that does not feel in lign with the theme
i love this idea and im curious how it will be executed by the community, what changes they would make, what designs they will come up with, etc.
Love to hear your thoughts on these! I’d love to hear more with more FFF
I'd prefer something like RimWorld's naming for the quality levels.
Think it would fit the game a bit better, but in the end it doesn't really matter.
Or they could simply go ahead and name it "Tier 1" up to "Tier n".
This would also open the possibility for mods to add additional tiers in the future.
I wonder how this might affect some of the custom scenario mods. Maybe they give you a stack of legendary power poles, and part of the challenge is if / where you put them.
The recycler output is a loader because otherwise you'd have problems with the output slots, how many and what goes in them
Keep reacting when necessary. I value your opinion on it because you've demonstrated you are an expert on the field (of Factorio, lol)!
This sounds a lot like Kovarex builds. I’m really looking forward to the complexity!
Have you noticed that deconstructor exports straight to the belt?
Yup, should probably be a dedicated armor and Spidertron build, because i would want at least 1 of each, and would also like a few Roboports, because then you can do so much more yourself.
But yeah, that will take a while and be costly.
Resubbed for space exploration again :P
Yes! These are great!
Cool. Please more of that.
i guess that for completion this will no matter at all(like modules which are usually used only for rockets). For the Late Game, it will add extra grind to get maxed Assemblers and modules.
As I read these FFF myself, one of my thoughts was "what would be Nilaus Opinion about this, I could imagine arguments for both, good and bad", so abviously: yes, I'd really like more of that FFF reaction if there is anything interesting to say about.
I wonder how the recycler will work with mods like krastorio where some items have multiple recipe.