@FaceHammer Enjoyed the video, but I think you mixed up two items accidentally: Lore Familiar is the one that lets you pick your spells. Arcane Familiar is the one that lets you generate from two lores. Also I'm not sure a lvl 1 Wizard is a great investment. They're just not reliable at casting. You didn't actually pay for the Exalted Sorcerer to be a lvl 2 Wizard. Looking forward to how this list evolves after more experience!
@@Meiron42 Yeah better off with a level 2 over Spell Familiar as you get +1 to dispel and cast for an extra 15 points. Also the Nurgle spell with a low remain in play value going to be dispel all the time.
This was a great video. I like how you went really deep on your thought process with all of your pics. It's interesting seeing a min core, max character type army.
Loving all these vids as a way to actually learn and play the game! Keep up the great work, I'm sure many there's many like me who find the book/rules daunting without first being explained by a real human.
Just make sure when placing characters on a mount that all the wargear is still valid (brilliant helm for infantry and calvary models only, not monsters)
This video series on the Old World has been superb, cheers Russ! Only thing throwing me off is the outro music becuase its the same music one of my favourite pro wrestlers (MJF) uses for his entrance 😂
Thanks Russ, that was really useful. Getting back into Warhammer looks likely and Chaos is a strong contender as a project as I wanted an elite force to keep the painting down. So getting a look at how a strong list could be constructed was really good. If you were starting from scratch with the Marauder horse what would you equip them with? Just out of interest. I’m still reading through the main rules and haven’t really looked at lists yet
Cheers - yeah it would be a case of avoiding/feeding him things (hard to do as he flies) or using static res to try and challenge out/beat counter flank charge and hope he breaks. Or just sheer volume of shots with some AP
@@FaceHammer yep, definitely answers to him around. Reading some of the other comments on here, there's lots of negativity about your approach to the game. Sorry you've had that. Hearing about the game from a competitive mindset is what I come here for, there are plenty of other channels that just want to push their toys around (which is also fine and probably closer to how I'll play, too!) but as you said in another comment, Warhammer is a skill based game and it's fun to get better at it!
Very nice and insightful video! Thank you for that. I did a little "build along" and noticed that your sorc is just level 1. With a level 2 one I just made an Aspiring Champion my BSB and that means you got some more points left for the adjustments. Or do you think the Exalted Champions is crucial here?
yeah I think in my test list I didn't have the second demonic gift which gave me 35 pts - put the charmed shield on the chosen knight champ and lvl 2 on the sorc
Great video ! Thanks. One question, you mention that mounted characters can join infantry units. I thought characters could join only units of the same type
Great video! Do you have any tips for people who are kinda new to listbuilding on how to find other peoples list suggestions? Me and a couple of mates decided to pick up the game but I'm having a hard time finding some list inspiration for my daemons, and trying to figure out what to buy as a result. Mainly if its viable to make a chaos soup or is mono-god lists the way to go?
ok my best advice and really... this might come across a bit hypocritical. You need to experiment and play games. Its journey over destination. List writing is a skill and its also the most fun thing ever. Its building a utility belt/tool box to unlock options on the table. Ultimately the best way to write a list is doing it yourself. The issue I have with forums/discussion groups is there are always those few ppl who have an opinion on how good something is (and it could be valid) and they just say "don't take X that sucks - take this mathematically its better etc" - however one thing this min max approach does is forget the emotional attachment you might have with a model because you LIKE it and that might be more important than the 10% increase in output. you need to experiment and find what works for you. play enough games and you will understand WHY its better to take this over that. I am not saying getting information from other players is bad - and it can be very helpful. But I would craft your first list yourself. If you try and think how the army will kill/protect and counter things you are on a winner already and then you can just refine it and modify it to suit. Feel free to google/read forums (think some of the old school ones are still going like Ulthuan.net)
Thank you for the awesome answer. Im for sure gonna try making a daemon-soup this weekend for my first game night with the mates. Loving your content and big thanks agan!@@FaceHammer
Still haven't received my rules yet but I was under the impression characters could only join units that share a type. So can you put cav in infantry or is this just a restriction for monstrous?
Yes you can - there are some restrictions around skirmishers (who cannot mix sub type) and monsters/chariots who have specific rules on the unit type rules such as clumsy - The diagram in the book even shows a goblin wolf rider hero in a block of infantry so its fine, also in this version they cannot be targeted by shooting and benefit from look out sir
how do y'all know which book to use and which version and such for different armies? like how do I know to use the correct stat blocks or army list requirements for WoC?
there is only one block of rules for warriors of chaos - its all in ravening hordes book. Essentially its Rule book, and 2 army books one is good guys one is bad. The muster list explains what you can take in each list. there are only one version of the profile for a unit for old world
This Lord specifically isn't legal anymore, the Helm is now Infantry/Cavalry only so it's less hard to deal with than it was. That said, honestly your most consistent options to deal with him are: A) Ignore him. He's 600 points in a single model and can't be everywhere all the time. Use your 2000 points to gang up on his 1400 points of units and just accept that he's going to kill what he kills. Depending on how your army is set up (a lot of small cheap units or big tough units) it might be hard for him to get his points back. And even if he does, just make sure you're getting the better end of things with the rest of your army and it can still be okay. B) Try and tie him up. This is hard vs a Chaos Lord plus Dragon as they are very hitty but it can be easier with weaker lords/heroes. Putting the lord into a fight with a tough infantry block or unbreakable unit or something might hold him up a few turns and give you time to take points off him while he's dealing with that unit. Considering the Lord is 600 points even if he eventually kills the tarpit unit, it's probably not worth as much as him so it could be a good trade. Of course actually getting him tied up is tough with a fast flying mount so that is why this is plan B. C) To actually kill this guy you really need to dedicate to it. With Mark of Nurgle shooting is better than melee but either can work. You just need to throw enough dice at it. The other option is to get a big dumb monster of your own to attack it with. Your own Dragon Lord or a Giant type monster, whatever. It's tough because the Chaos Dragon Lord is the top of the food chain so you're always the underdog in this type of fight but again, enough dice can eventually swing your way. This is easily the least effective option though as the amount you need to invest to kill it will probably far outweigh the Chaos Lord's cost. At which point you're now playing into the Chaos player's favor. D) Play 1000 point games. I personally find list building at this points level the most interesting as you have much tighter limits to work within. Some people say the game becomes unbalanced at this point level but I don't agree. You can easily build an army with any faction if you actually try. Sure it won't have all the bells and whistles but it also won't have Chaos Lords on Dragons either. Just saying.
not that I saw (I didn't check the more narrative ones) Yeah I remember that one, thanfully even watchtower and garission rules are gone (just capture the terrain feature for bonus VPs)
My Warriors of Chaos NURGLE with Anvil Chaos Warriors with Mark Spears & Shield 5+ save) (Reroll all Natural 6’s) (Also has 6+ Ward save) Add Level 2 Exalted Sorcerer. With Signature Spell Nurgle. (+1 T Sorcerer & Unit, Rest of Game MAX 7T) Level 3 Demon Prince (General) Level 3 Demon Prince can Also Cast Signature Nurgle Spell within 3 inches?
So, had a go at putting together my first proper competitive High Elf list based, taking your suggestions into consideration. Keeping it fairly all-comers but also banking on Monsters and nasty characters being the meta. Here is what i've come up with. ++ Characters [987 pts] ++ Prince [522 pts] (Hand weapon, Light armour, Shield, Star Dragon, Dragon Slaying Sword, Talisman of Protection, Seed of Rebirth, Pure of Heart) Special Rules: Ithilmar Weapons, Strike First, Valour of Ages Gives me a 3+/5++/5+++ T6 9W elf with ASF Monster Blow that's likley to give anyone pause. Even a Nurgle Chaos Lord on Dragon, i'd wager. Archmage [205 pts] (Hand weapon, Upgrade to Level 4, On foot, Seed of Rebirth, Sea Guard, Battle Magic, warbow) Special Rules: Elven Reflexes, Ithilmar Weapons, Lileath's Blessing, Lore of Saphery, Valour of Ages Solid magic phase. Would have liked a bit more protection than a 5+++ but can cast Oaken Shield for a 5++ for the unit, and can dish out some nasty spells, including Vaul's Unmaking to start taking down those nasty magic items a peg or two. Noble [260 pts] (Hand weapon, Light armour, Battle Standard Bearer, Lion Chariot of Chrace, Seed of Rebirth, Dragon Helm, Chracian Hunter) Special Rules: Ithilmar Weapons, Strike First, Valour of Ages 3+/6++(vs Flaming)/5+++ with T4 6W and a boat-load of S6 AP-3 attacks doesn't sound too shabby. Coupled with Stubborn and First Charge, this guy should be a threat for small/medium units all on his own. ++ Core Units [501 pts] ++ 5 Ellyrian Reavers [90 pts] (Hand weapons, Cavalry spears, Hooves (counts as a hand weapon), Light armour, Shortbows) Special Rules: Elven Reflexes, Fast Cavalry, Open Order, Swiftstride, Valour of Ages 5 Ellyrian Reavers [90 pts] (Hand weapons, Cavalry spears, Hooves (counts as a hand weapon), Light armour, Shortbows) Special Rules: Elven Reflexes, Fast Cavalry, Open Order, Swiftstride, Valour of Ages 22 Lothern Sea Guard [321 pts] (Hand weapons, Thrusting Spears, Warbows, Light armour, Shields, Sea Master (champion), Standard bearer, Razor Standard, Musician) Special Rules: Close Order, Elven Reflexes, Martial Prowess, Naval Discipline, Valour of Ages These guys are a decent enough bunker. Might have more bodies than i'd want but thought this was preferable to yet another unit of Reavers. Can be flexible but will mostly be guarding the mage and shooting, shooting, shooting. ++ Special Units [231 pts] ++ 5 Dragon Princes [231 pts] (Lance, Full Plate Armor, Shield, Barding, Drakemaster, Standard bearer, War Banner, Musician ) Special Rules: Close Order, Counter Charge, Dragon Armour, Drilled, Elven Reflexes, First Charge, Impetous, Ithilmar Barding, Ithilmar Weapons, Sons of Caledor, Swiftstride, Valour of Ages. Will require an Eagle babysitter but should hit fairly hard and about as tough as a non-character elf gets. ++ Rare Units [280 pts] ++ Eagle Claw Bolt Thrower [80 pts] Special Rules: Elven Reflexes, Skirmishers, Valour of Ages Eagle Claw Bolt Thrower [80 pts] Special Rules: Elven Reflexes, Skirmishers, Valour of Ages Great Eagle [60 pts] Special Rules: Close Order, Fear, Fly (10), Stomp Attacks (1), Swiftstride Great Eagle [60 pts] Special Rules: Close Order, Fear, Fly (10), Stomp Attacks (1), Swiftstride Thoughts welcome
Each cannon shot is 2+ to wound. Then 5+ armour, ward and regen. So about 4 shots to do d3+1 wounds. So probably about 16 cannon shots to kill something that flies and can have LoS blocking the right spot to target. Don't think cannons really solve it on their own.
@@jacklovelock1953 Thanks for this joke man! I really cannot understand how people can seriously over-estimate cannons/artillery so much in ToW. In former WHF editions cannons ignored armor at least and did D6 wounds. Also your were able to shoot away the mount (or the rider). And also, you had different saves for rider and mount while now in ToW the mount + rider have the same saves. That is why you can reach 2+ /5++ /5+++ with a single model on a dragon for instance... while in former editions you were at least able to kill the tougher monster but which had no saves (mostly) or just some armor of 4+ or so. Now in ToW D3+1 wounds on great cannons (!) is also ok and has a higher average than D6 but cannons in ToW have ap 2 and only do D3 wounds (dwarf ones for instance), with the great cannons (empire) having ap3 and d3+1 wound. Armorbane on this 1 woundroll, yeah lol, good luck. So while Heroes on big mounts got pushed a lot. Artillery against single models got tuned down. In fact this is a simple loophole that playtesting should have sorted out. Some nasty could say that GW did this with purpose to sell lots of expensive single models like monsters or heroes on big mounts....
You don’t want a Chaos Lord, you want to take a Sorcerer lord instead. This is much more powerful. Sorcerer Lord [650 pts] - Hand weapon - Heavy armour - Mark of Tzeentch - Wizard Level 4 - General - Chaos Dragon - Crown of Everlasting Conquest - Armour of Silvered Steel - Biting Blade - Enchanting Aura - Daemonology
Just like to point out when you're talking about the spell "Daemonic Vessel" only lasting until end of turn so you have to cast it and then charge into combat. That isn't the whole story. Page 108 of the Core Rulebook states that spells with range of 'self' can be cast in combat, which that spell is. "Fleshy Abundance" is also a 'self' range spell. This means a Nurgle Daemonology Sorcerer can cast Daemonic Vessel, Fleshy Abundance, AND Daemonic Familiars (the assailment spell) while already in combat! However "Daemonic Vigour," the other "Enchantment" spell in this lore has a range of 15" and CANNOT be cast while in combat. Needless to say a Nurgle Sorcerer with the Daemonology lore is incredibly flexible having this many spells that it can use in combat and are the best picks for a wizard you expect TO get into combat!
Its a meme so dastardly in design it plants a small seed of corruption in your brain, one day leading to your damnation! or its GIFT of chaos and I might have said it with a soft "t"
Interesting video, well explained in the intro and the core part was good. Didn't give your Sorceror LvL 2, i think you'd need both heroes on foot to afford it. The dragon with that specific setup just seems like something someone posted on Reddit day 1 after looking at Potato cam pictures (because it is haha), i really think for the purpose of this video it was somewhat unhelpful including a gimmick like that, undermining a bit of your credibility tbh.
Yeah missed the lvl 2 - I didn't see it on reddit but I'm really not surprised as it kind of leaps out as obvious. The point was to demonstrate leaning into a particular design direction which was defense / point denial. I am not sure its unhelpful as it shows the mindset of finding the most effective thing you can with the options available. I Actually think its too much and you are almost getting diminishing returns as its too far one way. But the principal is all i was showing off. I agree it would have been unhelpful if I did the video saying "THE MOST BROKEN DRAGON EVER - WIN ALL YOUR GAMES AND WATCH YOUR OPPONENT CRY!" or "NEVER LOSE AT TOW WITH THIS COMBO" because that's bullshit I don't do even if works for getting numbers and clicks. I'm not a hot take shock jock. Anyway I take the point on board.
That´s why I play orcs & Goblins.. I don´t worry about taking it too seriously.. I make a cool forces that fits the background and play.. Don´t really care if I win or lose. lol Can´t really be too bothered about optimizing something that will never be balanced.
totally get that - I still like to find effective lists within factions, Its what gets my brain flowing but a lot of times ill take a unit coz i like it and maybe write a list thinking "how can i get the most out of this unit" - perhaps a super Meta Dragon wasn't the best example in hindsight!
Step 1: Dont. Just get the guys you think look the coolest and suit your idea for a force or army from wherever youve decided you hail from and put them on the board and have fun.
To an extent this is true but playing without any cavalry or wolves or any shooting in a list that can take shooting is going to make the game very hard to play if you go up against anything that’s faster or overly shooty.
Hey man, I've loved your content so far but teaching people on how to hero hammer the worst is a pretty toxic approach to the game imo. This Chaos Dragon build was created on reddit for sevaral weeks ago and is called the Bedazzling Nurgle Dragon. Nothing new what so ever and crowned the most broken character you can create. It really really sucks to play against and just creates a bad gaming atmosphere for all players involved. I really hope GW is quick on the ball and nerfs this type of hero hammer.
Hello there! My background is top end competitive play. - I was just explaining how to build a character for a role and the choices for him seemed fairly obvious to me. I don't really spend much time on reddit/forums so not seen it before but I am sure it would have been done by lots of people as it is very obvious. End of the day you build to the environment you are playing in - I usually play most my games at tournaments so build accordingly, I know lots of people who play at this level and no one complains about strong combos if its legal - the scene used to comp these things if they truly were broken. If you are playing casually or in clubs or with friends then absolutely house rule and comp things or tone it down and play in a different spirit. I was just looking at the options available to me to make the most effective chaos lord on dragon - also its a dangerous thing to think someone is being toxic just for using effective combos, it doesn't make that person a toxic opponent. I also take no responsibility for peoples behavior - I was not going "oh guys I've got this broken thing to ruin the hobby for your friends!" - So I am not sure why you are saying i shouldn't "teach" people to be "toxic" when I'm not doing this. If someone wants to behave like that in there club it would take 5 minutes to work this combo out with or without my video. I am sure the studio will make adjustments to things in due course. Also Warhammer has always been about Heroes - I think this edition is less so than others. Did you ever play under Fly High rules? Forbidden Rod etc?
@@FaceHammer I think we clearly look at it differenly. I want to have an environment where skills are the determing factor as who wins a game not decided on the one that can create the most broken hero character that steam rolls its oppenent. Any given noob can steam roll a experienced player if the heaviest point sink in his/hers army cannot be killed. This is basically equal to entering cheat codes into a game. I'm a very competitive player myself but from a different gaming system based out of Warhammer. Been playing in ETC and won top army with Skaven so I know all about competitive play. I get your point off view but it goes to a certain extent where it starts to break the spirit of the game. Adding this dragon against my Skaven for example is like bringing a missile launcher to a fist fight. We are not fighting on equal terms. I keep saying it all the time as well. Just cause you can doesnt mean you should. Example again, I dunno if you saw it but I provided the ridicolous 19 gyro copter list for 2k pts DH a week or two back just to make a meme out of the unserious nature you can build lists. Just cause it is possible doesnt mean it should be done. Anyway that is my standpoint. Hopefully hero hammer gets nerfed heavily in the upcoming patches and actual skills can then determine the winner instead.
I take your point but with Warhammer player skill is super important, its very easy to feed/redirect and limit the points a model like this can score if played poorly. I also don't really take any point about missile to a fist fight seriously when it comes to competitive play. You are handicapping yourself and that's totally fine if you want to do that and want a challenge (I do this a lot to myself in AOS because i don't like the arms race of Jank) But if you go to a shark pit you need to expect the best things will be there. Its down to events to comp or GW to fix. I agree about the Gyro list but we wont see that in competitive events as even the two GW events have a max 3 of any unit clause and I can see this being standard in old world events. WFB is a skill driven game more so than most other GW systems - This model wont win you games alone if not used effectively - So saying its "no skill" isn't really true, there are a lot of "soft" points to get in the list. In Capable hands is it really strong - yes of course. I don't think its turn up and auto win however as Old world has a lot of skill components to just playing the game and mistakes can be punishing. I also don't think I'm reducing the game to a mem with that loadout - the list has a nice "look" and balance to it with a very strong hero (but its a Chaos list!)
Not sure how it's clickbait when it's exactly what the show is about. An effective thumbnail yes but I'm not miss-representing what the show is about to get clicks
old-world-builder.com/ this is the app I used for army building! enjoy!
@FaceHammer Enjoyed the video, but I think you mixed up two items accidentally: Lore Familiar is the one that lets you pick your spells. Arcane Familiar is the one that lets you generate from two lores. Also I'm not sure a lvl 1 Wizard is a great investment. They're just not reliable at casting. You didn't actually pay for the Exalted Sorcerer to be a lvl 2 Wizard. Looking forward to how this list evolves after more experience!
@@Meiron42 Yeah better off with a level 2 over Spell Familiar as you get +1 to dispel and cast for an extra 15 points.
Also the Nurgle spell with a low remain in play value going to be dispel all the time.
Great to see the process demonstrated & to hear your thinking. Keep em coming chum 👏
Thanks, will do!
This was a great video. I like how you went really deep on your thought process with all of your pics. It's interesting seeing a min core, max character type army.
thanks - glad it really helped - Byron was on at me for ages to do this style show for AOS
Min cores not always a good thing.
A prime example would be besatmen you could easily take 50% core.
Loving all these vids as a way to actually learn and play the game! Keep up the great work, I'm sure many there's many like me who find the book/rules daunting without first being explained by a real human.
Glad you like them!
That's one beefy chaos lord! Really found this video helpful, particularly the part on unit roles.
Glad it helped!
Just make sure when placing characters on a mount that all the wargear is still valid (brilliant helm for infantry and calvary models only, not monsters)
Really informative! Hoping for similar content for other armies :)
Seems a common sentiment so I will do so!
Looking forward Lizardmen !@@FaceHammer
This video series on the Old World has been superb, cheers Russ! Only thing throwing me off is the outro music becuase its the same music one of my favourite pro wrestlers (MJF) uses for his entrance 😂
well MJF is also my fave pro wrestler :) - Also Thanks!
can you create a 2k army list for chaos dwarfs?
Thanks Russ! This couldn’t me more timely for me. Going to my first tournament in a decade this month…
Best of luck! where are you going?
@@FaceHammer just a local one dayer at a local FLGS Dark Fire Games in St Albans.
Thanks Russ, that was really useful. Getting back into Warhammer looks likely and Chaos is a strong contender as a project as I wanted an elite force to keep the painting down. So getting a look at how a strong list could be constructed was really good.
If you were starting from scratch with the Marauder horse what would you equip them with? Just out of interest. I’m still reading through the main rules and haven’t really looked at lists yet
I am not sure tbh - I do think Flails are good for what you want them to do
Oof. I don't much fancy coming up against that list with my shooty High Elves! I enjoyed watching your process on how you approach building the list.
Cheers - yeah it would be a case of avoiding/feeding him things (hard to do as he flies) or using static res to try and challenge out/beat counter flank charge and hope he breaks. Or just sheer volume of shots with some AP
@@FaceHammer yep, definitely answers to him around. Reading some of the other comments on here, there's lots of negativity about your approach to the game. Sorry you've had that. Hearing about the game from a competitive mindset is what I come here for, there are plenty of other channels that just want to push their toys around (which is also fine and probably closer to how I'll play, too!) but as you said in another comment, Warhammer is a skill based game and it's fun to get better at it!
Very nice and insightful video! Thank you for that. I did a little "build along" and noticed that your sorc is just level 1. With a level 2 one I just made an Aspiring Champion my BSB and that means you got some more points left for the adjustments. Or do you think the Exalted Champions is crucial here?
yeah I think in my test list I didn't have the second demonic gift which gave me 35 pts - put the charmed shield on the chosen knight champ and lvl 2 on the sorc
Could you go over what sort of terrain and how much people should have for their own tables?
its clearly laid out in the rules but I will do so when I do the "how to play" series
Great video. I’m thinking Dragon Ogres can replace chosen knights - lots and lots of benefits
Good call! - I really like the ones I have painted too! and dont need to rebase them - bonus!
@@FaceHammer yep - those stats are a bit crwzy - incl the stomp 2 per model - a lot more wounds, more damage, ItP … seems rather tasty
Great video ! Thanks. One question, you mention that mounted characters can join infantry units. I thought characters could join only units of the same type
Yes you can! it even shows in the digram a goblin wolf boss in a unit of goblins
Great video! Do you have any tips for people who are kinda new to listbuilding on how to find other peoples list suggestions? Me and a couple of mates decided to pick up the game but I'm having a hard time finding some list inspiration for my daemons, and trying to figure out what to buy as a result. Mainly if its viable to make a chaos soup or is mono-god lists the way to go?
ok my best advice and really... this might come across a bit hypocritical. You need to experiment and play games. Its journey over destination. List writing is a skill and its also the most fun thing ever. Its building a utility belt/tool box to unlock options on the table. Ultimately the best way to write a list is doing it yourself. The issue I have with forums/discussion groups is there are always those few ppl who have an opinion on how good something is (and it could be valid) and they just say "don't take X that sucks - take this mathematically its better etc" - however one thing this min max approach does is forget the emotional attachment you might have with a model because you LIKE it and that might be more important than the 10% increase in output. you need to experiment and find what works for you. play enough games and you will understand WHY its better to take this over that. I am not saying getting information from other players is bad - and it can be very helpful. But I would craft your first list yourself. If you try and think how the army will kill/protect and counter things you are on a winner already and then you can just refine it and modify it to suit. Feel free to google/read forums (think some of the old school ones are still going like Ulthuan.net)
Thank you for the awesome answer. Im for sure gonna try making a daemon-soup this weekend for my first game night with the mates. Loving your content and big thanks agan!@@FaceHammer
37.00 a wizards on a horse is heavy cav, and there for can not join a unit of light cav if they are skirmishing
How would you set the Lord now that the helmet no longer works on Dragon?
Still haven't received my rules yet but I was under the impression characters could only join units that share a type. So can you put cav in infantry or is this just a restriction for monstrous?
Yes you can - there are some restrictions around skirmishers (who cannot mix sub type) and monsters/chariots who have specific rules on the unit type rules such as clumsy - The diagram in the book even shows a goblin wolf rider hero in a block of infantry so its fine, also in this version they cannot be targeted by shooting and benefit from look out sir
If your stuff is sealed dish soap and water will wash them off its not harsh on the finish just use what you have on hand.
what I am doing is working but cheers for advice
how do y'all know which book to use and which version and such for different armies? like how do I know to use the correct stat blocks or army list requirements for WoC?
there is only one block of rules for warriors of chaos - its all in ravening hordes book. Essentially its Rule book, and 2 army books one is good guys one is bad. The muster list explains what you can take in each list. there are only one version of the profile for a unit for old world
@@FaceHammer ahh okay thought ravening hordes was an orc or undead book. Thanks
How do you counter that type of chaos lord?
This Lord specifically isn't legal anymore, the Helm is now Infantry/Cavalry only so it's less hard to deal with than it was.
That said, honestly your most consistent options to deal with him are:
A) Ignore him. He's 600 points in a single model and can't be everywhere all the time. Use your 2000 points to gang up on his 1400 points of units and just accept that he's going to kill what he kills. Depending on how your army is set up (a lot of small cheap units or big tough units) it might be hard for him to get his points back. And even if he does, just make sure you're getting the better end of things with the rest of your army and it can still be okay.
B) Try and tie him up. This is hard vs a Chaos Lord plus Dragon as they are very hitty but it can be easier with weaker lords/heroes. Putting the lord into a fight with a tough infantry block or unbreakable unit or something might hold him up a few turns and give you time to take points off him while he's dealing with that unit. Considering the Lord is 600 points even if he eventually kills the tarpit unit, it's probably not worth as much as him so it could be a good trade. Of course actually getting him tied up is tough with a fast flying mount so that is why this is plan B.
C) To actually kill this guy you really need to dedicate to it. With Mark of Nurgle shooting is better than melee but either can work. You just need to throw enough dice at it. The other option is to get a big dumb monster of your own to attack it with. Your own Dragon Lord or a Giant type monster, whatever. It's tough because the Chaos Dragon Lord is the top of the food chain so you're always the underdog in this type of fight but again, enough dice can eventually swing your way. This is easily the least effective option though as the amount you need to invest to kill it will probably far outweigh the Chaos Lord's cost. At which point you're now playing into the Chaos player's favor.
D) Play 1000 point games. I personally find list building at this points level the most interesting as you have much tighter limits to work within. Some people say the game becomes unbalanced at this point level but I don't agree. You can easily build an army with any faction if you actually try. Sure it won't have all the bells and whistles but it also won't have Chaos Lords on Dragons either. Just saying.
There usse to be a mision where if you dont have any banners it was an auto loose, is that still in the old world?
not that I saw (I didn't check the more narrative ones) Yeah I remember that one, thanfully even watchtower and garission rules are gone (just capture the terrain feature for bonus VPs)
My Warriors of Chaos NURGLE with Anvil Chaos Warriors with Mark Spears & Shield 5+ save)
(Reroll all Natural 6’s)
(Also has 6+ Ward save)
Add Level 2 Exalted Sorcerer.
With Signature Spell Nurgle.
(+1 T Sorcerer & Unit, Rest of Game MAX 7T)
Level 3 Demon Prince (General)
Level 3 Demon Prince can Also Cast Signature Nurgle Spell within 3 inches?
Most importantly, have fun.
Goes without saying for me when talking toy soldiers
@@FaceHammer I was just trying to be cheesy.
Keep up the good content.
👍
Hmmm, with the unkillable dragon quite boring thou but besides this, nice description on what you took and why.
So, had a go at putting together my first proper competitive High Elf list based, taking your suggestions into consideration. Keeping it fairly all-comers but also banking on Monsters and nasty characters being the meta. Here is what i've come up with.
++ Characters [987 pts] ++
Prince [522 pts]
(Hand weapon, Light armour, Shield, Star Dragon, Dragon Slaying Sword, Talisman of Protection, Seed of Rebirth, Pure of Heart)
Special Rules: Ithilmar Weapons, Strike First, Valour of Ages
Gives me a 3+/5++/5+++ T6 9W elf with ASF Monster Blow that's likley to give anyone pause. Even a Nurgle Chaos Lord on Dragon, i'd wager.
Archmage [205 pts]
(Hand weapon, Upgrade to Level 4, On foot, Seed of Rebirth, Sea Guard, Battle Magic, warbow)
Special Rules: Elven Reflexes, Ithilmar Weapons, Lileath's Blessing, Lore of Saphery, Valour of Ages
Solid magic phase. Would have liked a bit more protection than a 5+++ but can cast Oaken Shield for a 5++ for the unit, and can dish out some nasty spells, including Vaul's Unmaking to start taking down those nasty magic items a peg or two.
Noble [260 pts]
(Hand weapon, Light armour, Battle Standard Bearer, Lion Chariot of Chrace, Seed of Rebirth, Dragon Helm, Chracian Hunter)
Special Rules: Ithilmar Weapons, Strike First, Valour of Ages
3+/6++(vs Flaming)/5+++ with T4 6W and a boat-load of S6 AP-3 attacks doesn't sound too shabby. Coupled with Stubborn and First Charge, this guy should be a threat for small/medium units all on his own.
++ Core Units [501 pts] ++
5 Ellyrian Reavers [90 pts]
(Hand weapons, Cavalry spears, Hooves (counts as a hand weapon), Light armour, Shortbows)
Special Rules: Elven Reflexes, Fast Cavalry, Open Order, Swiftstride, Valour of Ages
5 Ellyrian Reavers [90 pts]
(Hand weapons, Cavalry spears, Hooves (counts as a hand weapon), Light armour, Shortbows)
Special Rules: Elven Reflexes, Fast Cavalry, Open Order, Swiftstride, Valour of Ages
22 Lothern Sea Guard [321 pts]
(Hand weapons, Thrusting Spears, Warbows, Light armour, Shields, Sea Master (champion), Standard bearer, Razor Standard, Musician)
Special Rules: Close Order, Elven Reflexes, Martial Prowess, Naval Discipline, Valour of Ages
These guys are a decent enough bunker. Might have more bodies than i'd want but thought this was preferable to yet another unit of Reavers. Can be flexible but will mostly be guarding the mage and shooting, shooting, shooting.
++ Special Units [231 pts] ++
5 Dragon Princes [231 pts]
(Lance, Full Plate Armor, Shield, Barding, Drakemaster, Standard bearer, War Banner, Musician )
Special Rules: Close Order, Counter Charge, Dragon Armour, Drilled, Elven Reflexes, First Charge, Impetous, Ithilmar Barding, Ithilmar Weapons, Sons of Caledor, Swiftstride, Valour of Ages.
Will require an Eagle babysitter but should hit fairly hard and about as tough as a non-character elf gets.
++ Rare Units [280 pts] ++
Eagle Claw Bolt Thrower [80 pts]
Special Rules: Elven Reflexes, Skirmishers, Valour of Ages
Eagle Claw Bolt Thrower [80 pts]
Special Rules: Elven Reflexes, Skirmishers, Valour of Ages
Great Eagle [60 pts]
Special Rules: Close Order, Fear, Fly (10), Stomp Attacks (1), Swiftstride
Great Eagle [60 pts]
Special Rules: Close Order, Fear, Fly (10), Stomp Attacks (1), Swiftstride
Thoughts welcome
The chaos lord on dragon seems completely unkillable, seems like a rules miss from them as that won't be fun at all to play against
Yeah, the other dragon/griffon builds are already too strong but this one is really completely over the top.
Yeah, just as an example, he could take about 250-350 shots from Glade Guard with AP-2 before dying
Until you see how much damage artillery or heavy cav can do.
The dragon is tough, but far from unkillable.
Each cannon shot is 2+ to wound. Then 5+ armour, ward and regen. So about 4 shots to do d3+1 wounds. So probably about 16 cannon shots to kill something that flies and can have LoS blocking the right spot to target.
Don't think cannons really solve it on their own.
@@jacklovelock1953 Thanks for this joke man!
I really cannot understand how people can seriously over-estimate cannons/artillery so much in ToW.
In former WHF editions cannons ignored armor at least and did D6 wounds. Also your were able to shoot away the mount (or the rider).
And also, you had different saves for rider and mount while now in ToW the mount + rider have the same saves. That is why you can reach 2+ /5++ /5+++ with a single model on a dragon for instance... while in former editions you were at least able to kill the tougher monster but which had no saves (mostly) or just some armor of 4+ or so.
Now in ToW D3+1 wounds on great cannons (!) is also ok and has a higher average than D6 but cannons in ToW have ap 2 and only do D3 wounds (dwarf ones for instance), with the great cannons (empire) having ap3 and d3+1 wound.
Armorbane on this 1 woundroll, yeah lol, good luck.
So while Heroes on big mounts got pushed a lot. Artillery against single models got tuned down. In fact this is a simple loophole that playtesting should have sorted out.
Some nasty could say that GW did this with purpose to sell lots of expensive single models like monsters or heroes on big mounts....
You don’t want a Chaos Lord, you want to take a Sorcerer lord instead.
This is much more powerful.
Sorcerer Lord [650 pts]
- Hand weapon
- Heavy armour
- Mark of Tzeentch
- Wizard Level 4
- General
- Chaos Dragon
- Crown of Everlasting Conquest
- Armour of Silvered Steel
- Biting Blade
- Enchanting Aura
- Daemonology
maybe - I wish I could make my tzeentch chaos lord a lvl 4 wizard like the old days in 6th ed
Just like to point out when you're talking about the spell "Daemonic Vessel" only lasting until end of turn so you have to cast it and then charge into combat. That isn't the whole story. Page 108 of the Core Rulebook states that spells with range of 'self' can be cast in combat, which that spell is. "Fleshy Abundance" is also a 'self' range spell.
This means a Nurgle Daemonology Sorcerer can cast Daemonic Vessel, Fleshy Abundance, AND Daemonic Familiars (the assailment spell) while already in combat! However "Daemonic Vigour," the other "Enchantment" spell in this lore has a range of 15" and CANNOT be cast while in combat. Needless to say a Nurgle Sorcerer with the Daemonology lore is incredibly flexible having this many spells that it can use in combat and are the best picks for a wizard you expect TO get into combat!
What's a GIF of Chaos?
Its a meme so dastardly in design it plants a small seed of corruption in your brain, one day leading to your damnation!
or its GIFT of chaos and I might have said it with a soft "t"
dunk into water where the dust is very briefly is the best against Dust
yeah tried that but it doesn't really get the recess - airbrushing a thinner/water mix really gets it gone after a makeup brush dust off
Interesting video, well explained in the intro and the core part was good. Didn't give your Sorceror LvL 2, i think you'd need both heroes on foot to afford it. The dragon with that specific setup just seems like something someone posted on Reddit day 1 after looking at Potato cam pictures (because it is haha), i really think for the purpose of this video it was somewhat unhelpful including a gimmick like that, undermining a bit of your credibility tbh.
Yeah missed the lvl 2 - I didn't see it on reddit but I'm really not surprised as it kind of leaps out as obvious. The point was to demonstrate leaning into a particular design direction which was defense / point denial. I am not sure its unhelpful as it shows the mindset of finding the most effective thing you can with the options available. I Actually think its too much and you are almost getting diminishing returns as its too far one way. But the principal is all i was showing off. I agree it would have been unhelpful if I did the video saying "THE MOST BROKEN DRAGON EVER - WIN ALL YOUR GAMES AND WATCH YOUR OPPONENT CRY!" or "NEVER LOSE AT TOW WITH THIS COMBO" because that's bullshit I don't do even if works for getting numbers and clicks. I'm not a hot take shock jock. Anyway I take the point on board.
That´s why I play orcs & Goblins.. I don´t worry about taking it too seriously.. I make a cool forces that fits the background and play.. Don´t really care if I win or lose. lol
Can´t really be too bothered about optimizing something that will never be balanced.
totally get that - I still like to find effective lists within factions, Its what gets my brain flowing but a lot of times ill take a unit coz i like it and maybe write a list thinking "how can i get the most out of this unit" - perhaps a super Meta Dragon wasn't the best example in hindsight!
Step 1: Dont. Just get the guys you think look the coolest and suit your idea for a force or army from wherever youve decided you hail from and put them on the board and have fun.
Yeah this is also true 😀
As long as both players have a similiar approach / power level its all good fun. Wether its tournament lists or lore based ones
To an extent this is true but playing without any cavalry or wolves or any shooting in a list that can take shooting is going to make the game very hard to play if you go up against anything that’s faster or overly shooty.
I buy the models i like, after that i try to do my best with them
This is the way. Rule of cool is the best and only rule
Hey man, I've loved your content so far but teaching people on how to hero hammer the worst is a pretty toxic approach to the game imo. This Chaos Dragon build was created on reddit for sevaral weeks ago and is called the Bedazzling Nurgle Dragon. Nothing new what so ever and crowned the most broken character you can create. It really really sucks to play against and just creates a bad gaming atmosphere for all players involved. I really hope GW is quick on the ball and nerfs this type of hero hammer.
Hello there! My background is top end competitive play. - I was just explaining how to build a character for a role and the choices for him seemed fairly obvious to me. I don't really spend much time on reddit/forums so not seen it before but I am sure it would have been done by lots of people as it is very obvious. End of the day you build to the environment you are playing in - I usually play most my games at tournaments so build accordingly, I know lots of people who play at this level and no one complains about strong combos if its legal - the scene used to comp these things if they truly were broken.
If you are playing casually or in clubs or with friends then absolutely house rule and comp things or tone it down and play in a different spirit. I was just looking at the options available to me to make the most effective chaos lord on dragon - also its a dangerous thing to think someone is being toxic just for using effective combos, it doesn't make that person a toxic opponent. I also take no responsibility for peoples behavior - I was not going "oh guys I've got this broken thing to ruin the hobby for your friends!" - So I am not sure why you are saying i shouldn't "teach" people to be "toxic" when I'm not doing this.
If someone wants to behave like that in there club it would take 5 minutes to work this combo out with or without my video. I am sure the studio will make adjustments to things in due course. Also Warhammer has always been about Heroes - I think this edition is less so than others. Did you ever play under Fly High rules? Forbidden Rod etc?
@@FaceHammer I think we clearly look at it differenly. I want to have an environment where skills are the determing factor as who wins a game not decided on the one that can create the most broken hero character that steam rolls its oppenent. Any given noob can steam roll a experienced player if the heaviest point sink in his/hers army cannot be killed. This is basically equal to entering cheat codes into a game. I'm a very competitive player myself but from a different gaming system based out of Warhammer. Been playing in ETC and won top army with Skaven so I know all about competitive play. I get your point off view but it goes to a certain extent where it starts to break the spirit of the game. Adding this dragon against my Skaven for example is like bringing a missile launcher to a fist fight. We are not fighting on equal terms. I keep saying it all the time as well. Just cause you can doesnt mean you should. Example again, I dunno if you saw it but I provided the ridicolous 19 gyro copter list for 2k pts DH a week or two back just to make a meme out of the unserious nature you can build lists. Just cause it is possible doesnt mean it should be done. Anyway that is my standpoint. Hopefully hero hammer gets nerfed heavily in the upcoming patches and actual skills can then determine the winner instead.
I take your point but with Warhammer player skill is super important, its very easy to feed/redirect and limit the points a model like this can score if played poorly. I also don't really take any point about missile to a fist fight seriously when it comes to competitive play. You are handicapping yourself and that's totally fine if you want to do that and want a challenge (I do this a lot to myself in AOS because i don't like the arms race of Jank) But if you go to a shark pit you need to expect the best things will be there. Its down to events to comp or GW to fix. I agree about the Gyro list but we wont see that in competitive events as even the two GW events have a max 3 of any unit clause and I can see this being standard in old world events. WFB is a skill driven game more so than most other GW systems - This model wont win you games alone if not used effectively - So saying its "no skill" isn't really true, there are a lot of "soft" points to get in the list. In Capable hands is it really strong - yes of course. I don't think its turn up and auto win however as Old world has a lot of skill components to just playing the game and mistakes can be punishing. I also don't think I'm reducing the game to a mem with that loadout - the list has a nice "look" and balance to it with a very strong hero (but its a Chaos list!)
It's a fucking cheat code if its literally playing by the rules and a win is a win regardless of skill. Get over yourself.@@wardogtabletopgaming2329
Clickbait deluxe
Not sure how it's clickbait when it's exactly what the show is about. An effective thumbnail yes but I'm not miss-representing what the show is about to get clicks
Says the attention seeking comment 😂
can you create a 2k army list for chaos dwarfs?