Braking in simracing: A Misconception! - Assetto Corsa Competizione
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- čas přidán 31. 05. 2024
- "Brake as late as possible" is possibly the most famos racing quote - and it couldn't be less useful. This video clears up what that actually means and why braking late is earlier than you think!
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Simracing is difficult. Learning how to drive fast takes time, dedication and persistence. Assetto Corsa Competizione is one of the best simulations with highly sensitive aerodynamics that want to be respected. Telemetry, such as motec helps with analyzing car behavior and finding major issues in the car setup or driving style. Special sim racing hardware also helps with becoming better, but certainly is not the solution to your problems. Load cell pedals offer better feel. Stronger but most importantly more detailed force feedback of e.g. direct drive wheels offer more immersive sensations. Though I know and I've seen throughout the years, people with entry level hardware perform on top level.
00:00:00 Intro
00:00:36 Why it's bad advice
00:02:12 How we got here
00:04:42 The problem with "as late as possible"
00:07:23 Changing perspective - what is the "latest"?
00:09:29 Applying new technique in different corner types
00:12:38 Key Takeaways - Hry
Sometimes all it takes is realising that not every advice is good advice :P
this is the biggest issue in rookie/public as many players brake late and those who learned to brake early gets crashed into from behind and ending up everyone blaming each other.
stay wide, wider, let them shoot into Infinity. (I know you don't always have that choice). it sometimes helps to just turn the brake lights on before actually braking by just touching it ever so slightly
I find myself giving the brake a tiiiiny baby tap just before especially in regular LFM races. Aka, "back up, buddy!"
@@SimracingPopometer great tip! unfortunately doesn't work in open seaters, plus people stuck to your rear wing a lot of times forget that dirty air and tire temps exist
Rookies usually don’t understand communication but I always try to communicate with the other drivers during the race when we close, if you close behind me into a turn you’ll see a light tap of my brake lights that’s to inform you I am breaking earlier, when I am behind you and I know I am gonna be carrying more speed out of exit that will lead to a very possible overtake into a straight I’ll flash behind you to let you aware. These are small tips that may help you race lesser experienced drivers but unfortunately I don’t think it does much, racing has a lot of egos and that’s the main causes of incidents, my best advice for folks racing in public lobbies be patient and avoid fighting with drivers that are not very aware.
yeah, my brain is stuck in GT3 with 1m² of tail lights :D (unless aston, mclaren, ferrari who all only use a stripe these days :P)
I've always been a follower of the "slow in, fast out" philosophy. Sometimes i might brake a lot earlier than others but my lap times are competitive. The only issue is, with that philosophy, it invites crazy dive bombers up the inside who most definitely won't make the apex or get a fast exit ..
You can also get rear-ended.
@@brett22bt for sure!
"Don't try to find lap time where it's not available." Nicely put. Applies well for everything in life.
I did an AI race yesterday in AMS2 where i was gapping the AI but was pushing somewhat hard, as i had "time to spare", i decided to take it easy and just bring it home, by braking earlier and smoother. 1st lap "not pushing" and i had already shaved 1.5s and drove way more confortably and in control of the car.
The issue nowadays is that a lot of cars are very forgiving and do not let you know you were too late, as the electronics works for you to make you feel "all is fine". In older cars without all those fancy assists if you were too late on brakes it meant a visit to the sandbox or a spin.
I'm in the process of studying. Once you get to 6/7 tenth to these guys, you're basically in a limbo. The differences begin to be slim. One apporach might work on a corner type while on others it wouldn't. Studying multiple Aliens you see they are different, what stays the same is they gain on you whatever ways they have to deal with a corner. Then one day you (for us slow people) do a step ahead then a couple days later you're back to square one and have to rebuild your understanding and execution habits again. Then execution matters. You might have understood but you might find hard to execute the corner in order to get those 0.050 from your best that put together make you 6/7 thenth slower than these guys. It's a continuous fight. Why am i even commenting on this :D...there's no other way around it I guess than hammering the iron, as we say in my mother tongue...Thanks!
I think what a lot of drivers do not realize that certain tracks have turns that are all interwoven with another and so on, so that 0.050 gain can be a whole second in just a single sector depending how much you’re off the pace in that sector. A lot of people will watch a full lap and never pay attention to inputs and speed they’re carrying, never wondering why someone is getting on power earlier than them without spinning out, the answer is position, if you’re in the right position you can be early on throttle even with TC off. Example Watkins Glen I am still trying to get into the 42s my best lap is a 1:43:1 and I do the whole lap comfortable with TC0 for quali and I know exactly where to gain the time I need, so it’s an on going apply/fail/learn/apply process!
As someone who generally brakes earlier than later, this video is extremely liberating for me and has also helped me understand myself and the ways of others, and how to quantify and improve my approach... Thanks again Nils!
LOL me too, but AMS2 ai that's behind me doesn't agree. the ai ahead of me seems to agree though. :P
fun fact, as I was learning the merc amg gt3 evo in update 1.8 on bathurst I was always missing my braking and therefore screwing my exits, I really had a little sticker on my triple screen setup on the frame of the screens where it said "brake early mfcker" :D
So yes Nils. That is actually a good advise.
It even gave me a bit more control over the car.
And later then I was giving a teammate some tips on spa and I immedietly noticed his lines were sloppy, his apex was weird and his steering was too agressive. I just told him "early braking, early turn in means early throttle" he got faster by 0.7 seconds and more consistent and confident
Instructions unclear, gained laptime.
😂 bro
Funnily enough I've just very recently started to look on breaking not as just stopping the car but as a preparation of my exits. And suddenly the times are much better - some turns somthing like 0.2 seconds gain, the lines are better and more consistent and braking looks where it should be. And now this video just basically confirms that the perspective shift was a good idea.
ive had to drum the slow in fast out mindset into my head, its probably the best tip for gaining consistency
The thing that’s stuck with me in my studying and time on track is that the braking zone is the last place to look to optimize lap times with your corner exit speeds being the #1 thing to work on.
The statement should be changed to “slow down brake release” this gives time for the accelerations to transition from negative longitudinal to full lateral. The load will be on the front axel and allow the rear axel to rotate on corner entry, which leads to earlier throttle application, etc. (from IRL performance engineer & driver)
you can't slow down your brake release if you are too late in the first place. so it would be misplaced advice (although useful in general) unelss we fix the first error in the chain of effects.
My best weapon in the sprint races is to just lift off early and modulate the brake while everyone else slams the brakes at the latest possible moment. I may arrive at the apex a bit later but I'm usually earlier on the throttle and I get to choose a better line and usually that results in taking the place back before the next corner. It's basically a cheat code for public lobbies and short races where everyone's a late braker
Another brilliant video, thanks for the summary of everything! Where I really learnt this: Watkins Glen T1.
Straights that are short enough to sacrifice: Nürburgring Mercedes Arena. Or Brands Hatch' last sector between the tighter corners. There really aren't many straights that are worth sacrificing!
your point about late acceleration is the reason why I can't improve my time on Monza from 1:50 to smth like 1:4*. I have only 35 hours of sim racing overall (complete beginner), but still, even if I understand the basics it's so hard to achieve the right techniques and do everything right. After this video I realized, that indeed, I struggle to accelerate BEFORE an apex and most of the time the acceleration starts after the apex, and that's where I lose my time and speed
35h is NOTHING. but good you come across advice early :)
hopefully allows to make a step!
This became my weapon to overtake a couple months ago once I realized most people in my league brake as late as they can. Brake early, earlier throttle application and you'll gain on the car ahead 99% of the time (as long as the car ahead has a similar pace though lol)
You asked, "What is late"? The easy answer (using IRL experience here) late is the point at which you can brake without compromising your corner entry speed. In the examples you cited, the lap times were slower. As in most cases when people brake late, they brake harder than normal because they haven't adjusted their perception of what a late braking point is as well as their perception of a safe corner entry speed. In the SIM world, this usually looks something like this (as you know)... driver x normal brake point is the 100 board, and the late brake point is somewhere after the 100 board and before the 50 board. Which is never going to work or produce an improved lap time. In the real world and for a fast driver, late is your normal brake point plus a few feet to maybe more than a full car length. If done properly late braking can produce a tenth of a second or two... per corner. Now that said, late braking is corner dependent as well, but that is a story for another day.
The problem lies with the delta UI as well, because as soon as you start braking you see that delta light up green and it will activate your reward system if you're sensitive to that, tricking you into thinking that you're doing alright. Then you're going too fast into the corner and you've already messed up. It can be really hard to break that habit. I know that in Ross Bentley's book 'Ultimate Speed Secrets' he writes about focusing on the "end of braking point" more than on the brake marker, which I guess is similar to what Nils is saying about being at the slowest point in the corner.
EDIT: this is also then why we hit walls in our driving and can't seem to improve no matter what we try, because we literally cannot correct our inputs because we've already braked too late. By braking a bit earlier you can at least let go of the brake pedal a bit more, but if you're going too fast on entry you can't make the car slow down even more because you're already at the limit of braking. It's a mistake that is impossible to correct.
I know this but in the heat of the moment I often find myself going too hot into corners and fumbling the exit. A big part of being fast is staying calm when under pressure. It's a mind game really.
Thanks, didn't know get the braking done before the apex, i was trail braking up to the apex if possible.
From the racing point of view you can defend against the dive. But it is way harder and sometimes impossible to defend on the following straight against a faster car that had a better exit.
If you find yourself in the tough battle keep that in mind. It helped me to stop overdriving under pressure.
I think this is specifically more pronounced in ACC where you HAVE TO slam the brakes 100% and trailbrake into the corner. iRacing may have its faults, but if you brake as late as possible, you're losing so much time, you know something is wrong. (You can be slow for other reasons too, obviously.) From the beginning you step into Rookies, you're learning to carry speed into a corner (if you're doing it right). Where in ACC, if you brake too early, you can either stop before the corner, coast 10 meters to the apex, or you press the throttle (way too early). So you think to yourself, I have to brake later, and later,... and soon you have 200+ hours, and you look for the latest braking point possible at every corner. At least this was my case when I started ACC way back at its release in ~2018-19. I got to the point where I was ~1-3sec off the pace of the Aliens. Once I went iRacing 1 year ago, I just can't go back to ACC. But I'm having fun with AC on LFM. So not all fun was lost.
We need more videos like this.
I 100% agree. I know I do this, and have a very difficult time changing it. I see other drivers doing it and I think I need to also to keep up.
thx for the Video. i srsly got to check this. I bet i lose actually the most time by braking too late!
Auf den Punkt gebracht. Slow in and fast out. Revierduelle lassen wir jetzt mal aussen vor. Und die höhere Kunst geht ins trailbreaken. Da ist üben und trainieren angesagt.
Very good video, this is something I learned when switching to iracing actually. I noticed I was quicker than most entering the corner but my laptimes were slower. So I have started to brake earlier and really think about trailbraking into the corners and try to get on power earlier. I'm certainly not mastering this yet, but I have become a faster driver and also less prone to mistakes as braking to late will often compromise your exit / line and sometimes even make you go off track
Great video!! I'd love to hear your advice for mental approach to big races. How do you handle nerves, negative thoughts, anxiety, self doubt, etc.
Great video Nils. This statment is realy usefull...
Great advise like the great Jackie Stewart use to say slow in fast out
Slow in, fast out!!! Going in too hot is a common new drive issue I’ve noticed.
Good explanation!
... "Get on the throttle early as possible" is the same kind of partly true advice, somehow...
there's a truth to that, but I hope the video made clear where that early point is
I am 47yo and I have been braking late for all my life. Braking late is so hardwired into my mind!.
I would not blame most hot laps. I think so much casual racing over years creates the impression that delaying braking makes you closer to the car ahead handling the turn. Technically you are closer but of course with a huge negative outcome we pay on the next straight.
I think late breaking is what keeps most of us on the other side of the LFM 107% barrier. Along not finding the trail braking sweet spot, which is probably caused by... late braking!
What is helping me in my recovery is focusing on how good it feels when you are ready to apply thottle while the axis is still on view. I think late braking is an emotional problem and requires an emotional fix.
Great video. I already purchased your Misano LFM datapack. I have never paid money before for something that felt like a slap on my face. 😄
i agree my sales tactic is a tough one telling people they suck :P
Thanks. I needed this.
Never heard that in my life. Slow in, fast out. That's what I always heard.
Of course is corner specific. You can brake late if the corner exit is not important for lap time.
The Maggots-Becketts (spelling?) section of Silverstone is probably the most obvious example of the multiple corner dillema; I dont sim race anymore but when I did I would always bomb into that segment and then the exit was a total crapshoot. Will try and factor this into my real life track riding as the same rules apply. I feel like braking a little earlier is safer too.
Good explanation as always. Now we have to digest and practice 😂
THIS ALL SCREAMS ACC: GOOD VIDEO SPEAKS FROM MY SOUL
I break too late ,( 21st in ps5\Xbox Spa event 1.3 off ) this is a video that I too personally needed to learn from ,now I'll try putting this into practice ,many thanks Nils :)
😂 was gonna send you this vid mate. Great advice as always 👍
Cheers mate :) Yea zak' very good :)@@JACKSPEED_TV
From personal experience, the origin of this misconception to me was because I was into Formula 1 since childhood and that's what you have to do there. When you switch to production-based cars, you need to adapt your driving to what they need. It's not about unlearning everything, but you can't expect a 1 ton car with McPherson suspension to drive like a pull/pushrod prototype
Current fastest guy in F1 brakes earlier than most other drivers. So, it appears to work in F1 as well...
Funnily enough, I started thinking about this during practice before a quali session to set a 6hr next week. Instantly the car fez 296 its weight transfer felt much better especially turn 1 where I was finding the rear wanted to overtake the front in previous laps, and my exit's became much better as I was able to setup the line and exit much better still many area's I probably lack in but it got my closer to some of the quicker driver's in the quali
Simple accurate true advice 👍🇦🇺thankyou
"Yes, yes! Brake as late as possible, just slam the brakes! Accelerate out of the corner as hard as you can *to carry the speed!* And go for every gap you see and always try to pass because Senna... - Meet me in the pile-up in T1" :D
(Thanks for the video, this confirms a lot of my observations about the matter.)
yeah, there are more of these nonsense sentences.
"Clip the apex!" "IM TRYING MAN, I REALLY AM!"
"up/down through the gears" "yeah, what else?"
"dont hit the wall" *sigh*
Theoretisch kann ich praktisch alles😅 Danke Nils, großartige Erklärung und ich habe es doch mit meinem Gegnern geteilt, denn ich hoffe dadurch deutlich weniger häufig von hinten gekillt zu werden 😅
Ty for this info. I'm always worried I'm to slow or too fast for corners. And I'm always worried about being punted.
How do I get over the anxiety of being punted. It's like no one wants to use race craft(if they even have any racecraft skills) they just want you out of the way.
So a lot of the braking late or too early is from that pressure.
Amazing advice
I have been working on getting this blue marker in front the pink one for a few weeks now and your video brings a lot of food for thought! It is very much appreciated, Thank you.
On an other subject matter what make is your seat?
its a RCC MK6 - I have a couple MK3 in standard size for sale right now. ping me on discord - i'll walk you through!
Wie immer exzellente Qualität. 👍
Try braking early at mount panorama turn 12 or turn 18 in ACC, if you want to get completely run over by ai cars.
Hallo, ich habe eine Frage zum BMW M4 GT3. Ursprünglich wurde der wagen mit einer hohen tc gefahren. 8/3 jetzt ist es tc1 oder minimal höher. Muss ich diese tc fahren? Wie viel langsamer bin ich mit tc6? Bin kein esportler sondern fahre 3-4 die woche in einer liga. Zum beispiel für 2:17 auf Spa, oder 1;54 Nürburgring. Geht das mit Tc6
Alles über TC3 ist zu invasiv seit dem letzten patch. Die reifen funktionieren etwas anders und mit TC6 regelt er jetzt definitiv zu viel weg. Je niedriger zu fahren kannst, desto better.
Great, great, GREAT advice!
Nice one Nils
A big issue I see with ACC drivers is they treat the brake pedal as a binary input, from 100% with the ABS crying and then releasing all the pressure at once. Causes so many issues, and when they move to any other sim they complain the braking is wrong, or that they have to relearn how to brake entirely.
i also think people lack some differentiation effort here:
initial slamming is seen irl. But there needs to be more trailing than we see in ACC or ams2.
@simracingpopometer
Once again thanks for an informative video.
Can I ask 2 questions
1: You mentioned (towards the end of the video) that if we have to wait before getting on the throttle then we have braked too late. Is this also the case if we are coasting through the corner ?
2: Should we accelerate when the front / middle / rear of the car reaches the acceleration point ? I’m doing it at the middle atm.
1. the problem with coasting often is that you take load from the front tires and therefor take longer to rotate the car around the corner than if you kept applying the brake deeper. coasting time, as a rough target, should be kept minimal, though that doesn't mean its persé wrong - when you overdo the trail braking and the rear snaps slightly lose (maybe even on purpose) then a little (maybe a few tenths) of coasting helps the car regain grip.
2. we are using the front tire position as a reference.
@@SimracingPopometer thanks for the reply. Coasting always had me perplexed. I was always taught to be either on or off the pedals. Then Coasting came into the equation (I guess more predominantly for aero cars but was also taught in karts as well).
However I’ll use the “brake deeper” and coast “few tenths” if I need to … from now on.
yeah thats another big issue when non coaches, or non experts give advice: "either on or off the pedals" is not the correct advice. You want to be slowing down or accelerating, but you do not want stable speed. Which is an entirely different thing. If you check your data you will often see that you are on the throttle despite the car slowing down or just doing steady speed. The right pedal is for accelerating, not 'slowing down less' so to say :D
Can I ask a question! As a physical disability using one side of the body to steer the car as well as braking and accelerating with the same foot, how does what you have explained applied here? Is it the case of the term, flying around the sim community of "Slow in, fast out!" Does it apply here even though the time of switching pedals is greater than those using left and right foot?
yeah, its just rephrased and deeper explanation instead of just saying "slow in, fast out". because if you narrow it down that much it might lose meaning. how slow is slow and how fast is fast?
as for your slower change of pedals - i dont think its an issue, there is a good amount of cars that wants a tiny bit of coasting between braking and throttle, so taking the extra time you need is not an issue. however, since you cant go back and forth, you have to be extra precise on the brake to not need further speed corrections down again once you have started to accelerate. placement here is key for you, and basically you are forced to do what other should be doing: decelerate once, accelerate once, no corrections and alternating pedals in between.
@@SimracingPopometer thank you for that clarification. I was concerned that switching between pedals with the right foot is slowing me down against a driver with the use of two feet! I know I'm going to be slower than there are, so I'm trying to find ways, to mitigate that! I was told recently for example to brake and hold the pedal until the car of choice is slowed enough to shift quickly through the gears, but I'm noticing that it is adding more pressure to the knee that's doing 2 jobs alternatively - not good! So I'm trying to find a way to ease that pressure so I can last the full hour without having to stress out the right side! I would like to see a video on how slow compared to a driver using their left and right side, which I haven't really seen as of this moment! But thank you so much for your reply. It really helps. I'm looking to purchase popometer so I can work on ways to improve the racing line, corner entry and corner exit so I can be as fluid as possible. 👍👍
@@brandogt3racing feel free to message me and send a few images of your hardware solution. always interesting to see and who knows, maybe I have any ideas
I ❤ this.
thx Nils
When i started with simracing back in the days with F1 on my PS4 and a G923 i had a strange experience...
I was in free practice (or quali) in carreer mode against the ai and i was on my inlap, so i drove slightly slow, breaked really early before each corner, but accelerated normal at the exits and... i got a green delta and was way faster, than in my 'fast driving mode'... that was really confusing to me!! 😂😂😂
This is good stuff! You see a lot of people too late into corners and really is a bad habit, I did it too in the beginning gladly I realized I was losing time so immediately stopped it.
i improved on monza by braking earlier on the first 2 turns
This is the video community needed. Very well put.
I think the main reason for this is that you see pros braking later, but you don't consider the fact that they are more efficient with the trail braking and turning the car on throttle so you just end up having too high entry speed and making the turn steeper than necessary.
It almost feels like an honor of sorts to be able to brake later than everyone else even if the lap times are not any faster.
He is a Racing Professor
Max Verstappen is the best example for this advice. He's known for braking earlier than the rest but is still way faster.
Thing is, the guy behind me thinks otherwise and dares me to a bare knuckle fist fight
Somewhere along the line I've been ingrained with turning the wheel as little as possible to have the brakes/weight transfer do most of the turning. It's a bad habit and I don't know how to break it.
Sehr gutes video nils .schade das es keine deutsche version gibt .gruss Rudi ❤
Slow in, fast out as the other saying goes :)
People have no problem holding themselves to two opposing truths :D
What earpad are you using on your Nova Pro?
just default i think? not the leather ones
@@SimracingPopometer thanks 😊
Great video. Just one correction: it's apex, not appex.
oh where did I write that? must've slipped my eye
@@SimracingPopometer not in writing, and it's more of a joke on your pronunciation.
Do you have the effort to create a guide/in depth on Snetterton? Can only find 1 Yr old 1.8 guide
The general ways to drive don't really change between patches. just the TC and abs level might be different, or a few other clicks in the setup. where you place the car, where you're slow and where fast should be the same. Even the laptime I think is pretty similar these days(?). not driven snetterton in ages
@@SimracingPopometer I'm gonna study your old snetterton guide then, thanks! This tracks feel like one of the hardest to learn/understand
@@snippidippi it's indeed very technical
God knows how many times I got punted in lead while lapping backmarkers in corner entries and got blamed as “brake checking” them. Why would I brake check someone Im lapping?
Ive always explained a simple way of getting quicker as simply braking as late as possible to get on max power as early as possible, not sure if thats a good explanation tho
sounds quite similar to my adapted quote later in the video :P
Particularly true for vehicles with low down force I think?
Top video as always
you should always as late as possible as long as you dont sacrifice entry or the full corner depending on corner type, but anyways you should never be on the limit every lap in an endurance race anyway, only in crucial moments, otherwise it should only be in qualifying or sprint races (okay i see Nils got into exactly that during the video, idk why i was not expecting that, I should have more faith in nils! xD=
patience you shall have :D
bit of a chicken and egg problem that comes with racing folklore, but you've explained it yourself already: you wanna maximize the speed on the straights, so you brake late. it's just a matter of perspective on the corner i guess.
I can guarantee the guy behind me is a late braker.
that's for sure :D
"You were on your brakes so early man, I never expected it. An advice for you: brake as late as possible, you will gain time"
also: don't take advice from fast drivers with negative safety rating :D
Max Verstappen apparently has mastered this.
Thanks! Now I never have to explain this ever again as I can just send people here - with the added bonus of them getting an even more detailed tutorial which goes well past what I was basing my guidance on. Good, good. :)
Do you offer live coaching Nils? Ive been sim racing for a year now on LFM. Currently yoyoing around 2.5k elo. So split 2 mostly on the daily races. I can usually finish around middle of the pack and sometimes top 10. Depending how well my qualy goes ofcourse. Im usually in or around a second off the aliens, pace wise. Also, I seem to be more competitive on the cooler tracks and struggle on the warmer tracks. If you do coach, would you be able to coach me to unlock that Pro speed/pace? Instead of being a fast Pro-AM driver which I'm currently at.
yes sure. there are a few channels on my discord around coaching and also the waitlist where you could put your name. I'll reach out whenever I'm able to schedule
Always thought CDA hot laps , although I'm a customer, are mostly useless and misleading. I've mentioned that it's a miss opportunity for them many times. I feel you're pointing a finger at them.
i definitely am not pointing towards those :D
more the general esports people doing "guides": "brake late, accelerate early, use all the track, apex, shift up and down and there we go. world record!!"
@@SimracingPopometer gotcha.
Wer später bremst ist länger schnell.
*zu lang schnell :p
nah
Just drive faster through the corners and you'll get a better laptime, it's not that hard
fax
I bought the 992 data pack in popometer and it's made me a full second faster on day 1 !!!!!!!!!!!
that's the idea :)
lovely
As someone who generally brakes earlier than later, this video is extremely liberating for me and has also helped me understand myself and the ways of others, and how to quantify and improve my approach... Thanks again Nils!
why did you exactly copy another comment. wtf
kids these days...