-6,727 fpm descent rate | 2 KILLED in plane crash near Highway 127 in Limestone County!
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- čas přidán 5. 12. 2023
- Correction: 01:31 "in a spin" instead of "about to spin" 🙏
04-DEC-2023
A Beechcraft E95 Travel Air, N369BB, was destroyed when it was involved in an accident near Decatur, Alabama. The two occupants onboard sustained fatal injuries.
ADS-B data indicates that the airplane was flying north after departure from KHSV. About 18 minutes into the flight, the airplane turned around and was now on a southernly heading.
At about 11:19 LT, the airplane began a rapid descent from 5400 feet. At one point, the airplane had an average rate of about -6,727 fpm.
Details: aviation-safety.net/wikibase/...
#aviation #crash #avgeek
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IMPORTANT:
The main purpose of this video is educational, i.e. to provide example situations for people who want to become pilots or air traffic controllers and to provide them with information. In addition, the aim here is to provide current pilots and air traffic controllers with access to radio conversations around the world so that they can think about how they should behave in situations they are likely to encounter in the future.
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He was my former multi instructor. Flew that plane many times. He was a great instructor and human being. RIP brother.
Sorry for your loss. RIP 🙏
sorry for your loss. :( if he was a multi-instructor, and based on what was on the transmission, he wouldn't have flown the ADSB profile provided. that puts it towards mechanical. if you find out the results of the investigation, would you please share it. again, i'm sorry for your loss. RIP.
It's hard to fathom what might have happened to someone with enough multi experience to be a CFI. Every time I've been up in a twin (including the Traveler) - the number one thing we always worked on was an engine out scenario and maintaining control. I'm trying to think of how he knew he was about to spin but couldn't do anything to prevent that.... jammed rudder? engine out? pilot error? I'm sure Dan Gryder will have it all figured out on Sunday.
Has to be mechanical.
I knew him too remember when he got his private out at mdq.This was the hardest recording i have ever listened too.
I wish these trainers had spin chutes installed at the factory. They use these on test flights for test spins during certification. I know they'd have added weight and expense but for trainers I wish they were there.
A twin engine aircraft is very difficult to recover from a spin. Fuel in wing tanks can act as a counter weight to any control input.
Engine power must be rolled back. Stick full forward! Rudder control opposite of the spin.
And you’ll still need 5000 feet if you can even regain normal flight.
No, powere back, relax everything. Then rudder opposite spin, once spin stops, nudge over the yoke to regain flying speed.
A Cessna 150 has fuel in wing tanks.
but only one engine, centered.@@mmayes9466
@@tommypaget2294
No sir. That's not what the aircraft owner's manual says.
"If a spin is entered inadvertently, cut the power on both engines. Apply full rudder opposite the direction of rotation and then move elevator forward until rotation stops. When the controls are fully effective, bring the nose up smoothly to a level flight attitude, don't pull out too abruptly."
@@JoeThePilot and that’s different than my comment?
I was enroute to HSV when this occurred, and landed less than an hour after. I had no idea this happened before seeing this video. Very chilling. Condolences to the family, friends, and all those affected. I can't imagine how heartbreaking this must be.
@SteviPantyhose-mt5lm there's no reason I would lie about that but ok dude whatever you say
@@bro9479 guy is just a shitty troll just look at his other comments on this video.
What does it mean when the altitude remains stable (green line) but the speed fluxuates (yellow line)? Engine problem?
These type of accidents are just so tragic to listen to. Hats off to the ATC for keeping a level head after such a terrible situation and the way he handled the situation. RIP to those onboard the aircraft that crashed
It is tragic seen several of these recently, a bit unnerving as i am a student pilot i try to examine the reasons and decisions for the issues to try and avoid something like this happening to me perhaps we will know the details soon what was the weather like in the area? fpm stands for feet per minute
So very sad. Rest in peace.
You are greatly missed already, Mr. Houston (and friend). 🕊😔
Fly high fellow Pilots. Condolences to the family.
Peets corner is where my aunt's and uncles lived back in the 1980's and I used to visit there quite often. (the family plot is still there)
That plane was visible from their front yard.
Unlike single engines, the rotating mass of the engines out on the wings of a twin is too much inertia for the small rudder to overcome, thus once in a spin, it is unlikely the twin will recover out of the spin.
Wow. After watching this I found myself wondering, "What would cause something like this?" ... 'thus once in a spin' - regardless of and perhaps even beyond probable cause is... well, just wow. That's what it all boils down to, once in a spin you have largely crossed the point of no return. Horrifyingly sad.
A spin wouldn't have that descent rate though.
Interesting. What's the procedure for recovering from a spin in a twin engine? If you had time, could you shut the engines off?
@@peterhenman2662 Sure would. The incipient phase and developed spin could easily reach that descent rate. Once it goes flat, it would slow somewhat though. I agree that this is almost certainly either a VMC demo gone bad or loss if control during engine failure procedures. Travel Airs were spun fatally many times in the late 50’s and 60’s.
@@peterhenman2662 He states "in a spin" and how he is trying to recover. Would the angle of decent matter? I am thinking a "flat" spin, but what if the nose is pointed down and the spin isn't quite so "flat," would that account for the decent rate? I have been reading that a spin in this type of aircraft is a beast to deal with and in some, there is no "recovering." I had no idea having so much mass and weight away from the center of balance of the plane would pose such a threat. WMC training?
At 1:01 ATC said "practice area", not "back of the area" as in the captions.
And at 1:50 "opposite rudder" not "opposite, right". Part of the spin recovery procedure.
At 2:19 "260 radial" not "260 radio". Lots of other mistakes in the subtitles but I'll stop correcting them now.
Sorry for them. Thanks for your corrections 🙏
We have had a lot of crashs in Elkmont AL over the years.
As your own map demonstrates, that accident did not occur near Decatur. It occurred near Elkmont, or near Athens.
"The private pilot held a single-engine land rating and was receiving instruction in the
multiengine airplane. According to preliminary information obtained from the Federal Aviation
Administration, the flight departed Huntsville International Airport (HSV), Huntsville, Alabama,
about 1058, and proceeded northwest to a practice area. At 1120, while the airplane was about
5,700 ft mean sea level and 18 miles northwest of HSV, the flight instructor reported “mayday”
to air traffic control and that the airplane was in a spin."
You are in a spin about to die, your telling tower exactly whats happening, and tower keeps asking you "to repeat that", how infuritating!!!!!!!
For real is he deaf?
Aviate, navigate, communicate, in that order. If you are in a spin, your only priority is to fly out of it. It is too late to call for help.
When I first pulled that audio, I was shaking, can only imagine what they went thru. RIP
The VMC demo gone bad
Wasnt this a VMC demo that went bad and resulted in a spin ? I know twins are very hard to recover because they arent approved for spins.
Condolences to the families. This may be a training flight where practicing recovering from an emergency (departure stall or engine out, etc.) turned into an actual emergency. If it is, better to do this in a simulator instead of in the airplane. This is the reason airlines train emergency procedures only in a simulator. Training related accidents represent a significant number of accidents per year and could have their own category.
Some emergencies are best left for the simulators, but often times there is no replacement for doing it in the airplane. The reason airline training occurs in the simulator is because training in the real aircraft is simply not feasible for obvious reasons.
I doubt it…..nothing in flight plan about it, not enuf altitude for spin training, I’d say mechanical issues….but the end result is the same, two lives lost, two families left to deal with it…..RIP pilots
Did you look at the ADS-B data? Looks like he did a series of 3 stalls while maintaining the same altitude and heading until he stalled, entered a spin and didn't recover. Data doesn't support a mechanical issue, he would have started a controlled decent at the first sign of a mechanical issue, engine or elevator trim tab issue. @@kerrytodd3753
FAA would never allow that unfortunately
We need to start advocating changing Part 91 to the airline training model. There are at least 4 GA training accidents so far with multiple deaths. Zero airline training fatalities because they train in simulators and they even don't train these stall spin recovery maneuvers. They train minimum maneuvering speeds in the pattern. Stall / Spins can't occur if you maintain DMMS and less than 20 - 25 degree bank angle. The vast majority of all stall spin accidents are in the traffic pattern. Bob Hover can't recover from a spin in the pattern, nobody can. FAA should also allow unusual attitudes and stalls in a Redbird trainer. Please save comments about Redbird trainers are not full motion (that would be to expensive) and that you can stall at any speed comments - I know all that. Almost all stall spins occur in the traffic pattern (600 - 800 AGL). How much do you learn or demonstrate when you release back pressure on the yoke doing a power on stall at 65% power or a power off stall? Simulators are much better training tools. We need to change the GA training approach to improve the safety record. @@Vontai21
Average rate at one point?
How can they certify a plane that isn’t recoverable from a spin?
With a placard that says “spins prohibited”
Why holler to ATC?! Good Grief...
The hazards of spinning a light twin cannot be underestimated.
Hes not saying 'about to spin', hes saying "in a spin".
Just watched your presentation on this. These avoidable accidents clearly frustrate you.
Low time pilot, I have a lot to learn.
PS. I have huge respect for Richard McSpadden and the work he did. You should quit the airlines and put your talents to use by taking over his role.
@blancolirio There were 2 pilots on board was there not? Perhaps one was PIC actively attempting recovery, while the SIC declared emergency.
The one speaking was the cfi. I know for fact since I worked with him. He was chief cfi also. It is quite possible he clicked the mike while simultaneously kept ailerons neutral.
@@dada12336 Really? Were you there on the back seat ?
@@CFITOMAHAWK I said it was a possibility donkey.
RIP. tagging w hope someone will come back w results of the investigation.
Aviate then navigate, and lastly communicate. The radio call screams loudly the problem. ATC can’t train you for spin recovery after the fact.
RIP Brother
Rest in peace
In looking at the ADS-B data they got down to 59 mph prior to the loss of control. VMC in this airplane is 76KIAS. They were at 5500ft which is an altitude you would work for single engine. This could have been a VMCA roll which developed into a flat spin. The Travel Air is not certified for spins and based on the airspeed from 3500ft to the ground they were at 117mph, likely a flat spin because of the slow speed. It sounded like they were doing everything they could and working the problem. I don't know if the Travel Air can be recovered if in a flat spin. We flew a B55 Baron for over 10 years, the Baron is NOT recoverable in a flat spin but the tails between to two aircraft are totally different. NOTE: Even if an airplane is recoverable it takes a certain procedure (power to idle, nose down, rudder opposed to turn & ailerons neutral) that could still fail due to the extreme nature of a flat spin. God Speed, condolences to the families.
A flat spin by itself wouldn't create that high a rate of descent, they probably managed to recover from the spin but didn't have enough altitude at that point to recover from the resulting dive
@@Cakeboy99 If it was a VMCA roll it certainly will as the airplane literally rolls over onto it's back followed by vertical nose down. With the asymmetric thrust and back elevator (It is why you must have the yoke full forward and engines at idle) the airplane can enter a flat spin. At that time the decent rate will decrease. Not saying this happened but it is possible. A standard spin is fairly easy to recover from, a flat spin can be impossible. Be interesting to see what the NTSB says.
That's what I was thinking; the pilot was practicing single engine failure procedures and let his speed get too slow, below Vmc. Multi-engine flying scares me and I've never been tempted to try it.
@@RaysDad 90% of the all flying we have done is in light twins, 2 Cessna 310's and a Beech Baron. For sure it can be done safely and there are many advantages. Having said that you must be hyper aware and hyper focused. We have a few vids about VMC/VMCA rolls on our channel you may find interesting. Flying here in the PNW we have nothing but trees, mountains and water. Twins are great here, always nice flying over the rugged Cascades with 2 engines puring 😉 & 2 seperate electrical systems. If you are on your game they are a joy.
@@RaysDadwe are required to do a VMC demo for multi engine training so they prob were doing that. Granted you recover it at the stall horn which should give you a couple knots before you hit the actual stall....but a wing bank or delayed or improper recovery by the student could have put them into the spin.
I have not seen the whole video, and I'm actually paused that a minute and 13 seconds into this video. Look at his airspeed. He was in trouble from the get-go. Hopefully, I get to eat my words, and I'll comment when I see the whole video. I paused again at 1 minute and 56 seconds. Put down a hunch again, seeing that his AirSpeed was all over the place he was not indicating properly in the cockpit. I think he got slow installed the plane. I always fly with a secondary means of airspeed. The GPS. Okay. Continuing video again.
Very interesting graph. Training flight? Some stall/spin/etc. maneuvers can be recovered in a "simple" plane like a C172; but a twin like this? Not with me in the plane!
And I'm supposed to be headed in to discuss flight school tomorrow... RIP... I don't know why emergency parachutes aren't more common and accepted. Too many deaths happen in general aviation. Terrible loss
Ballistic parachutes have parameters that would not be compatible with a spin or flight above 90 mph ground speed.
What kind of emergency parachute?
Kind of sounded to me like he was saying “in a spin” (not “about to spin”), which would make more sense for the mayday call if they were in an unrecoverable spin. RIP. 😢
Yeah, thanks for the correction.
Yes, and when he said I'm trying he's already treetop height its possible the transmission end is the crash. Although he's way calmer than I would be.
Yes he said in a spin.
I find it crazy that student pilots are not required to prove they can exit a spin prior to solo…
Now some instructors have never spun a plane.
No student pilots are required to do a spin.
CFI applicants are required to be endorsed on stall and spin awareness prior to being eligible for the checkride; all CFIs have spun.
@@cpm1192 Yes...of course. But the comment was that 'student' pilots are required to do a spin...Yes...you could say a CFI applicant is a student...but as you know...most people think of a 'student' pilot as someone that is training for their PPL.
I don’t think this was spin training. This sounds like Vmc demo that went bad. Problem in a light twin is that most times Vmc is usually lower than that stall speed or right at stall speed. If a stall is executed during Vmc with one engine at high power a flat spin would likely happen. Unfortunately we don’t know the circumstances but I’m sure the NTSB will get to the bottom of it. My thoughts and prayers go to the families involved in this accident.
The "spin recovery" for a twin is to simply never get anywhere near it. As for spinning, the mindset in the FAA that has rendered spin-training on singles optional is simply ludicrous. The main function of spin-training is NOT to recover from developed spins. It's function is to give the student lots of experience of the incipient spin, and dealing with that, in order that they don't inadvertently spin later in the careers. The teaching of the recovery itself, is final insurance if they enter a developed spin with adequate height to recover. Not teaching recovery from developed spins, means they are a literal death-sentence if a pilot absent said training enters a developed spin. Attitudes have changed enormously on this since the 90's, when I started my flying career on gliders - when getting rid of excess height, many of us would spin off height, or failing that, use the opportunity to polish our side-slipping skills. Not being taught something the aircraft can do is asinine and completely unethical.
I'm not a pilot, but is it normal for a plane to fly like it did before he called mayday? In other words, he was flying back and forth before the distress call. Was he in trouble at that time and just didn't advise?
This plane belonged to a flight school for multi-engine training. Likely practicing different maneuvers with a student
What is “fpm” stand for?
Feet per minute
@@the_flight_records THANK YOU! 🙂👍🏼 I was trying to figure out what that meant to understand the chart. 6,000+ fpm must have been pretty scary. Very sad. Wonder what caused it.
And about 500 rpm is a standard decent rate. Just for reference…
@@_Breakdownthey were falling vertically at 70 mph.
My understanding with twins that due to all the weight across the wings, once it gets to spinning it’s hard to stop..
Then what to do in that situation? Just pray?
The Travelair should be recoverable in a spin… very tragic loss for all.
Yep, but the engines and the gas are outboard of the fuselage and working against you. The more developed the spin becomes the less affective rudder input will be. No time to be talking to ATC. Don’t operate light twins below VMC, not even for training purposes.
@@roberttolbert3535im sure being below VMC wasn’t part of the plan. We don’t know what happened, sudden atmospheric condition such as turbulence could cause them to drop below VMC speed. Its unfortunate but something to learn from.
Obviously not a pilot. You don’t drop below VMC in a clean configuration at 5,400 feet because of turbulence.
@@roberttolbert3535 I don't think there is any doubt that they were doing some training. Probably stall recovery.
8@@Vontai21
ATC cant help you but they tried. Its quite distressing to hear the last words, when they know the game is up.
VMCa demo strikes again… gotta keep the wings level to reach VMC before stall.. otherwise you are toast in a multi. RIP.
Some aircraft are not recoverable if in a spin. The Cherokee Six at gross weight is one of them. I don't know what the circumstances here were tho.
Who would now anyway as spin is not part of the certification for most aircrafts categories except aerobatic ?
@@12345fowler Inadvertently entered spin while practising flying on one engine would be an example.
Oh I dunno, anyone who REALLY wanted to learn how to fly and keep their ass out of an early grave. At a minimum, a spin causes, spin entry and spin recovery should have been demonstrated during training. It is my opin that every pilot should know how to recover from one.@@12345fowler
MEL is the scariest rating
Tragic loss. Are these twins not able to recover from spins?
It's very likely the case. Many twins are unable to recover or take longer than other single engine training aircraft. All twins I've instructed on had a placard prohibiting any sort of "utility category" maneuvers. This was either due to the inability to recover or not structurally designed to handle the aerodynamic loads.
RIP to those involved
Twin props are notorious for being difficult to recover from a spin. They’re far more dangerous than single engine props. For context this does not apply to multi engine turbines though
@@varietychillin9632thanks for the explanation. I always thought 2 engines is better than one
@@Boss_Tanaka yea no problem, but like I said, it doesn’t apply to turbine aircraft, a multi engine TURBINE is better than a single engine turbine
Twice the problems one engine out it becomes a over weight single two very important things with a twin BLUE LINE and never turn into a dead engine @@Boss_Tanaka
Wow! i clicked on this tragedy only to find it must be quite normal for pilots these days to fall right out of the sky. NO WAY , absolutly no no no way I would accept a ride from a new pilot
this is why the FAA should bring back spin training as a requirement for the private pilot training syllabus.
They removed it??! I had to do it.. back in 2004 though.
@@ZCasavantyou have to know the steps. But you don’t actually do it in the airplane.
@@ZCasavantit was removed in 1949, before the FAA existed. Worst thing in the world would be bringing it back
😢😢😢😢😔💔
Flying your own plane is dangerous as hell. About 20 years ago, I got interested in getting my pilot's license, I was in Civil Air Patrol as a kid, flew in Cessna 150 & 172's all the time. JFK Jr then crashed and the wife vetoed it. Glad she did even though I would love to fly. Too many variables for the average person with average money to keep up with IMHO
I'm sure you wouldn't have jumped into a very high-performance airplane that you were not familiar with, and flown into IFR conditions that other pilots rejected, with a healing, but still weak broken ankle. You can stay current without breaking the bank.
@@lindaschad9734 Your definition of breaking the bank and mine are probably different. I've worked with a lot of military pilots and aerospace engineers, we've had long hypothetical conversations about this subject. Flying is an activity that is way beyond the capability of the average person for two reasons, costs and it's very unforgiving. Learning to actually fly an aircraft isn't the issue, it's how to handle problems. Just about all of the military pilots I know quit flying after they retire due to costs. I also would not trust myself to build my own plane. As one UH60 pilot once told me, you can learn to fly a Black Hawk in about 300 hours, you're not learning to be a pilot, you're learning how to handle a problem and not panic because the outcome of failure is probably death.
PILOTS..DONT TALK TO ATC IN EMERGENCY..FLY THE DAM PLANE.. DONT GO FOR CHECK LIST ..CONTROL AIRCRAFT....RECOVER AND CONTROL THE AIRCRAFT.....WHEN WINGS LEVEL THEN TALK TO ....
Sounds like a VMC demo that got away from them…if so and it developed into a spin that’s really bad as most light twins aren’t approved for spins. So sad 😢
I was always exquisitely careful teaching VMC demos. I was no Waldo Pepper.
there be a few mistake in the Translations
Yeah, I know. Sorry for them.
instructors are no different from a student
This goes to all the people who want private pilots to do spins. There's a reason we don't do that anymore. I understand a spin in a light single isn't as bad as a spin in a heavier multi (uncertified for spins, too), but the experience level is also drastically different.
Every other country does PPL spins and is perfectly fine. Just need experienced spin instructors.
@@Vontai21 you mean instructors with 400 hours on their way to the airlines? Sure
@@alk672CFI candidates are required to have spin training in the US already. We all do it
A spin isn't inherently super dangerous, but when the manufacturer explicitly says do not allow the conditions for a spin in the multiengine plane you're flying, it certainly is inherently dangerous. They were on the edge of the envelope, where only test pilots should be.
Utter horseshit. If you cant spin and recover a suitable light single (ie one rated for spinning) you have absolutely no business flying an aeroplane. not as a student, a PPL or at a commercial level. The reason the FAA made spin-training optional, was that relatively inexperienced instructors were conducting it, often in aircraft not adequately checked for loose-objects, often not high enough etc and the training deaths were exceeding what they expected to lose through inadvertent spins. What the FAA SHOULD have done, was limit spin-training to more senior instructors, on aircraft with 5 point harnesses, wearing parachutes, and with all crew conducting both a careful pre-flight search for loose objects, but also wearing flying-suits with zipped pockets. At a stroke, those measures would have cut the number of spin-training deaths to near nil. By the FAA making it optional, they achieved the worst of all possible worlds, with aircraft and harnesses more suited to cruise-flight still be used for spin-training, and an increasing dearth of instructors suitably experienced to demonstrate and teach it. (Retired UK instructor of 30 years in the job)
What's needed is a handful of dedicated spin-training schools around the country, and you get sent there to pass that phase before license issue. No if's buts or maybes, and no "option".
Didunt say what be happens, did she be run out of PetroŁ
No reason for an uncontrolled spin even if loss of a engine prop festhering etc... sounds like an aileron
Why these ppl gotta talk with a potato in their mouth
Another instructor kills themself and the student. Seems like the worst thing you can do these days as student is have an instructor.
What a dumb ass comment! And I rarely comment on these videos.
Lie...mmml
Long time pilot here...I do not understand the impulse to declare MayDay on the radio. ATC cannot help you fly your airplane. Most controllers are not CFI's or even pilots. They can't help you get your plane out of a spin. All they can do is help you find a runway somewhere, guide you towards it, and call for the trucks. Don't waste braincells and time communicating during an emergency. Fly and stabilize the airplane first, fix stuff as able, then call ATC.
spontaneous, human reaction for a connection.
1st patsy cline now this!😢
Tragic that these so-called ‘instructors’ are just waiting to kill someone never lone themselves!🙁
That's not what happened. If you don't know anything about multi engine flying, best not to comment.
This is the second dumb ass comment like this on here that I've seen! Sometimes it's better to just shut up if you don't have anything constructive to add, especially when you're NOT a pilot. Geez