73. Biggest Fight in our Marriage
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- čas přidán 16. 03. 2023
- Ben and Kami talk about their biggest marriage conflict that has gone on for more than 20 years. They discuss Ben's depression, what a fight looks like, and Kami's secret notecards.
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Date Filmed March 14, 2023
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FIGHT FOR TOGETHER IS: Ben (DAD), Kami (MOM), Dove (21), Eden (20), Seven (18), Memory (16), Filia (12), Rainier (7)
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I feel like he is super controlling and it really irks me. I did not notice it in the AT documentary but since watching the podcasts, it has become glaringly obvious. Maybe narcissism too.
I would love to hear an equal amount of Kami's thoughts and feelings.
Dont hold your breath!
A little after the one-hour mark, we learn that "Kami's secret notecards" actually aren't Kami's secret notecards -- they're Ben's scripted notecards for Kami. In these notecards, he tells her how to feel about his behavior and shares detailed instructions on how she is to respond to his specific behaviors. When she mentions that she tried to follow one of Ben's scripts earlier in the argument, he cuts her off and tells her that she didn't use the exact wording on the card. He explains that she skipped the part that was most important to him. However, the sense that I get from Kami is that she skipped that part of the script because she wasn't necessarily feeling that part of the script. She also shared that she tried to communicate the things that she felt were helpful to Ben in her own words. At this point, he went over the scripted card again with her. He also communicated that it wasn't helpful to him for her to share the message of the card in her own words. Instead, he needed her to recite his own words back to him.
Can't wait for her to break free from him. Control and manipulation isn't always chains and ropes. My heart breaks for her cause....same, sis 💚
She doesn’t wanna be there. I feel that.
I have watched since the trail...I just have to comment now because I think you'd welcome the honest feedback? I was raised by a single dad 35yrs ago when it wasn't cool-and you remind me so much of him - everything cool about me is thanks to him. Knowing how to fish, hunt, be self sufficient - when all my little girl friends were playing barbies, I was stacking wood and building houses. But what he could never give - and pls don't underestimate this - was the ego-less selflessness. It's just so overwhelming the male narcissism you've shown since that first video I saw. And it's amazing no one comments or brings it to the forefront? It's one thing to "rule your own castle"....you've succeeded at that. But it's been years and I still here the same "no sex, someone's else fault"? As a women who also isn't feeling it...are you sure it's not just you? 🤔 You seem to have the "most important" feelings of the entire group? I say this with love as someone who has done the same...you've put it out there so perhaps that could help was my honest thoughts?
Lol...I'm living with my elderly mom and have also my best friend of 43 years who struggle sincerely with narcissism. It's a legit and real disorder that should be taken seriously. I'm just one you tube comment but...
This is so spot on. I have been following this family for a long time too. It truly is Ben's opinion or no opinion. Kami genuinely seems very meek around him, afraid to say the wrong thing. If you notice, this podcast is probably 90% of Ben talking, 10% Kami. He literally wrote on cards for her HOW to interpret what he does/says. Unreal.
Not to mention, and I know this is superficial, but it seems as if Ben doesn't put any effort into his appearance and as a woman, sometimes we need that!
This one was palpably uncomfortable. I do appreciate y'all putting your voices out there.
The one thing that made me feel weird was when Ben had Kami agree with his point of view when recollecting his experience with Kami denying him sex. At first, Kami said she didn't deny Ben--she just said no, she didn't want to have sex. But Ben kinda talked her into agreeing that yes, in fact, she did deny him sex. I don't know... it just felt like she was validating his viewpoint while discounting her own. I guess what I'm trying to say is that the experience could be both--he felt denied and she felt like she was just saying no.
Being told no...having a tanttum..retreating and punishing your partner then partner wiggling out are classic details of being in a relationship w a narcissist. I'm sure w all the therapy Ben they must have spoke w you about the multitude of sx of narcissism you have. And Cami the freak out after is classic co dependent behavior in this situation. It is refreshing however yall are so open w this most of us have stood in these shoes to some extent
Here is why Ben's entire premise is incorrect around 10:50 -- he implies here that, because other forms of sex weren't an option, that Kami's refusal was, in fact, a denial. However, these weren't only Kami's beliefs. As far as I've understood their story up to this point, these were very mutual beliefs. As such, Ben was choosing self-denial -- in choosing to be monogamous and live his life within a certain set of rules (whether those rules came from the Bible or any other place). As someone who practiced monogamy at that time, the choice was to self-deny when the other person was not amenable (since, as he notes, other options were not available to him). There has been lots of discussion, when they've dissected their history as evangelicals, on these beliefs being very sincere beliefs on Ben's part. Therefore -- in the event that Kami was not interested in being intimate -- he chose self-denial over other options that may have been available to him. At no time was Kami ever responsible for denying him. It was his choice to remain monogamous and eschew other forms of fulfillment. He can argue that evangelicalism denied him sex, perhaps. He cannot argue that Kami denied him because, as she states, he was free to pursue other options. It was his belief system that prevented him from pursuing other options.
It feels like Ben doesn’t know Kami’s love language. Meaning she’s not getting the correct love she needs and Ben is over here saying “I do so much, why am I not getting respect back?” But he’s doing so much in the way he wants to be loved, not in the way she needs/wants the love. So he feels like he’s doing everything, putting in all of this effort, and still getting turned down. And a person can only be turned down so many times before they stop trying. So it feels like a vicious cycle they are going in where she doesn’t feel loved and he doesn’t feel respected.
Been watching y’all forever, have your book! So I mean that with no hate. Also, Kami not sure of your pronouns so sorry if she is wrong.
I’ve dealt with the same frustration of being the only person that initiates date night in our relationship. My husband says “I don’t think about it”. It’s not lack of love, it’s just how he is. So we implemented a new thing. Every month we have a surprise date night. We don’t tell the person where we are going, just the day. I choose the date one month, he gets the next month, etc. examples of what we’ve done: dinner, a hike, a play, backpacking trip etc
It removes my frustration because he knows it’s his month and I don’t have to think about creating a date to keep the marriage alive.
One of the hardest things I think I've learned being with my partner of 12 years is that you can't take all behaviors personally. I am very much like Kami in that my initial reaction to negative behaviors is to assume it has to do with me. That is of course not the case. Sometimes you just have to let the other work through their feelings and not feel like you can fix it, because you can't always do that. Not wanting to have sex is not a rejection of the person or relationship as a whole, and it ultimately shouldn't be a big deal. There will be plenty of time for romance another day. If a partner is feeling distant or little depressed, that should also be allowed to play out without pressure. Distance, silence, reflection, those bits of uncomfortable space don't last forever. The challenge is to be able to sit comfortably in them and know you will come back together when you're ready. It's kind of a test of trust that not everyone will be hurt or angry forever.
It would be fantastic if could stop talking long enough to let Kami speak.
I haven't watched this one yet but I'm thankful you guys are back and I'm loving the focus of these most recent videos. It's funny how sometimes just having someone else say the same thing, or hearing the same info from someone you have 0 baggage with can hit you differently(that's what I get from content like this). Love the honesty from you guys, say hi to the kids!
Thank you so much for this! I find myself as a mixture of you both. I have trauma steaming back to very young, and yet pour myself into relationships with people. My partner now is patient and listens. He withdraws when I have my shifts and I definitely feel like I did something wrong. I am so glad you both are on your healing journey and sharing it! So much love your way!
I appreciate the honestly and openness. Thanks for diving in and sharing with us.
I love these guys. I love the book. But this was uncomfortable.
“if you’re evolving as a person, then often the things that used to work start not working anymore”.. -Kami
Watching your relationship evolve over the years has been so inspiring. Several years ago, watching you take all the beliefs you grew up with and sift through them to see if they were something you still held true. To then figure out how all that past shit shaped how you act and behave. To now look at those behaviors and reactions and strive to find new ways to go forward. That is such a difficult thing and not something most people will attempt to even do.
Kami- have you ever done any reading or research on the experience of women on the autism spectrum? Your journey to understand yourself and connect with others reminds me so much of my own. It wasn't until I realized I was on the spectrum that I was able to make major strides in the way I navigated my interactions with others. There are many great resources out there, maybe it's worth a look.
This was hard to watch, I think kami needed to be heard more
so much for weekly upload
All I can say is I love and respect you guys.
Thank you.
Definitely see bits of myself along with my partner in you two. Feels nice to not feel so along with certain martial moments lol
I also suspect Kami is going through peri menopause her hormones are changing (very common now earlier in your 40s) also considering an older conversation they had where she was more talkative and I’m sure people suggested this in the comments. I will say sex a few times a week does help with the symptoms, and having a happier marriage...as someone few years older and also married for 20 years. No sex is going to begin problems in the marriage and it really comes down to understanding this phase of human life and do you want to nurture the marriage through it.
...Ben, is that you?
whoa! this indeed is a vicious cycle.. long term marriages often go through bouts (short or long) of these & from what i have learned, through therapy, you have to get to the CORE (meaning tracing actions/triggers etc back to the very first thing that starts the cycle) and be ready to be COMPLETELY selfless in changing the action/s that starts the cycle. It often takes coupled & individual therapy, simultaneously… nevertheless, im intrigued & subscribed. HUGE thanks for the transparency.
It is very triggering because it makes you feel like that is all that your partner cares about. When you have so many other responsibilities you get tired and sex seems to be the last thing on your mind. At those times, we just need time to ourselves, just a moment for ourselves. It doesn't mean that we don't want to make you happy it just means we needs a break.
Hey Ben and Kami. I really dig your content. Is there any chance you can discuss your journey with faith, Christianity and where you’re at now? I grew up in an evangelical home, spent a lot of time in the church but struggled intellectually with reconciling tenets of Christianity. I sustained a fair amount of church wounds along the way, and wanted to be in youth ministry. My doubts or lack of faith resulted from a lot of cognitive dissonance. You’re both very smart, honest and open. If you’re willing, please share your experience, it would be helpful and enlightening.
Check out our other channel.
czcams.com/play/PL34xHw8SldTaErnYBlz-SibhxLOcxPz9G.html
@@FightforTogether so stoked to listen to it all. Thank you both.
I don’t know how to articulate this properly without sounding “wrong” but I’ve found that in many of my past relationships, no matter how good it has been going, as soon as something is wrong, my girlfriend at the time would completely forget about all the good times and hyper focus on the few negative ones. For some reason I don’t see men doing this as much. When you guys were talking about those 330 days of intense love with 35 days of being withdrawn, it triggered some sort of PTSD of those past situations. Perhaps this has something to do with the divorce rates being so high these days? Im very happy to have found someone who cherishes the good days and considers them when we have a bad day.
I am very appreciative of your openness to discuss these intimate topics.
Big fan, I’m glad you guys are back.
Just wanted to say, how amazing Kami is :) for me - love in every Kami's word.
And it is incredibly strong фтв courageous to talk about this topic, guys!
Kami you are not the problem…Ben is! He is very manipulative and controlling…and narcissistic!
also alot of marriages that end up in this state is due to either person wanting the other to mirror oneself. ex: during the cards segment, its as if Ben wants Kami to handle things the way HE would.
But it has to be realized, especially if the goal is getting out of the cycle & getting to a place of a thriving marriage, that each person is their own. and they should be their own without repercussions. Kami needs grace in processing her own shxt & so does Ben & it shouldn’t necessarily be intertwined or include input from the other. SPACE. this also segways into love languages. which should be expressed to the liking of the other person & NOT your own.
I wish the first card said "when I feel a shift from Ben and it triggers a full body response, remember I am safe, I am loved and I am enough."
It moves the meaning of the card from addressing Ben's discomfort to addressing Cami's insecurities.
I know this frustration from friendships as well. For me it was about fear of abandonment and in order to "control" not being left, I would do the fucking most (kinda like what Ben was sharing about drilling for secrets in Kami). I am really practicing hard to receive from all different people and its amazing haha. I feeld a lot more generous and people are generous with me. So generosity all around
I feel for her. I have been there it feels very risky and feels out of place to make the moves. It's always been the man to make the moves. So not naturally occurring traditionally with the female.
I absolutely love you both.
Oh and two days ago they celebrated their 43rd Wedding anniversary🎉
Ive been following you guys for many years and love to see the growth, in this discussion I heard a lot of what Kami is doing for Ben but Ben what are you doing for Kami? You two have very different personalities and I think her needs are just as important. And do not think I'm saying you (Ben) dont do anything for Kami, its just the thought I had while listening.
I like most of the family videos, but the amount of unnecessary noises this man makes into the microphone and how slow he talks on the podcast is painful!
Sounds lile what Ben's describing is rejection. I really resonate with that experience and those drivers
Some of the comments here are reading too much into the couple dynamic, Ben is a talkative , wordy extrovert and Kami is more introverted, reserved with communication and she thinks carefully about her words. I have this same dynamic with my husband, and just because she’s quiet doesn’t mean she doesn’t have an equal voice.
Sex is sometimes like going to the gym, you don’t feel like getting up and going…but once you do, you feel great and your glad you did it!
(I say this with jest and lightness) Ben, you’ve let yourself go a tad..you are starting to look like a panhandler 😂 maybe a haircut, shave and a starched shirt? She might not be able to keep her hands off of you 😂. Please take no offense, I’m not being mean spirited.
Yeah, but this low-key feels like Ben airing his grievances freely in a forum in which Kami cannot walk away or easily defend herself. Ben seems very fixated on "initiating" being objectively "the right thing to do" across a multitude of contexts. Example: "I initiated this, which was inherently the right thing to do, and she denied me. I went about things the right way, but my virtuous act went unnoticed." VS. "I had this idea, but she didn't like it." I assume that this idea of "initiating" is leftover ideology from their complementarian background. The use of the phrase "I initiated" rather than "I had an idea" speaks to Ben's beliefs around his own actions. In his mind, this is more than simply sharing an idea that falls flat. In his mind, he is doing a virtuous act by "initiating" when, in fact, "initiating" is largely a benign act and, in some cases, can even be injurious. We've all been in group settings where we had something to share, but one or two people did all the talking and didn't allow others to get a word in edgewise. Sometimes allowing that uncomfortable silence to simmer opens up opportunities for other people to speak and share their own ideas (and, who knows, we may even learn something).
Dude no means no.
ik denk een relatie is niet makkelijk er zijn veel hobbels maar wat jullie gedaan hebben is uitsonderlijk weinig mensen kunnen het. neem tijd en doe de dingen waardoor de relatie is begonnen denk aan het goede . neem tijd voor je zelf .jullie hebben al 22 jaar doe je best groetjes wallie
Relationship is give and take , someone too distance makes heart grow fonder , like maybe kam take a girls trip , it’s hard as a mama and in my religion women are suppose to be submissive to the hubby However the hubby must be worth submitting too and humbly admit when he is wrong too , DONT GIVE UP , fight for together , but it’s both give and take and sometimes again taking time apart helps
OK now that I finished this I feel so bad honestly for kami.....I have loved your videos for a long time but she is clearly saying what she feels and you keep cutting her off , wanting to over explain yourself. And saying how she feels without letting her soeak. .This convo is uncomfortable
Yikes 😢
It's pretty simple. Science tells us that, subconsciously for men sex is one of the main ways we emotionally connect to our spouse. It let's men know that they are loved wanted and needed. To be denied this by your spouse subconsciously makes you feel unwanted not needed, and unloved. For all sex feels good, it has a much higher subconscious importance for men!
Sex actually doesn't feel good for everyone. Some people despise the way it feels 🤷
Get on with it already!
These cards were him expressing how he feels and therefore just wants her to put forth effort into taking notes into what he’s requiring during certain times. Like, he said he’s not sure how to communicate during times of depression or times of disassociation, etc… this isn’t to say he’s “controlling” these cards are to help remind her on what he needs during those times, ya know? Hope y’all understand this. My husband is similar and sometimes he does this too! Or sometimes he will write down before we communicate and will read that verbatim. It’s not to say he’s controlling a situation, but in order to understand someone else, sometimes writing it down helps for that other person. 🤷🏻♀️
It’s ok sometimes it’s uncomfortable BECAUSE THEY ARE BEING REAL , unlike most creators WHO BEAT ON THEIR WIFE BEHIND THE CAM AND THEN POST A WHITE PICKET FENCE ….. so I am proud of y’all keeping it real , also remember what the bible says NEVER REJECT OR DENY THE OTHER SEX UNLESS ITS FOR PRAYER , maybe time to get into scriptures again
Ben: I struggle with these FEELINGS. I FEEL this. I want to understand this.
The Internet: Ben is a narcissistic asshole!
I noticed this. I actually started to feel I too am now a Narcissist because I want to feel my feelings, I want to understand my triggers, I can relate to what he’s saying completely, but then I have also understood where Kami is coming from and I have acted out similarly in certain situations. Etc, etc.. I think assumptions based on one podcast can get so blown out of proportion.
I was the same with my ex , bc is a codependent issues , point being is porn is dangerous and never ever refuse to get the other off unless it’s for prayers , even if ur not horny , go down on her or u on him , number one cause of divorce so again I encourage scripture
I loved when u guys would do scripture writing daily I DONT DO ORGANIZED RELIGION EITHER HOWEVER DONT GIVE UP UR PERSONAL RELATIONSHIP WITH YESHUA , he loves you both ! Church is in the heart ! Get ur asses back too scripture not organized religion
Why don’t you just have a date night the same night each week-and go to the same place each week-no one has to plan it- (we go to the same brewery each Friday night at the same time )
It’s not boring- it’s comforting
And occasionally friends show up to surprise us cause they know where we are at each Friday night
And we don’t ask for sex-we grab each other all day long and know we are having it after our date night unless we are too drunk lol
Lots of people do THEY HAVE NO BALLS TO SPEAK ABOUT IT , I commend u
I don't understand why you guys would come online in the middle of the fight. Just because you can, doesn't mean you should. It's super creepy. I used to love your channel but stopped having any interest around the time of the publicity with your son running the marathon. There's not enough room in this world for your ego. Gross. Your poor kids.
Lol. So why are you watching and commenting and judging? Go live your life instead of deciding the 'shoulds' of other peoples choices.
To be honest, I can relate to what they’re saying and this truly is helping me understand myself, and the way they’re going about as opposed to how they could be going about it is pretty mature in my eyes. I’m sure they came back to this and had a conversation on how they can better approach it for the next disagreement or argument they could have next. Honestly, this has been helpful for me, and I respect that they had courage to air their dirty laundry for the benefit of helping and guiding others. For others to not feel guilty and shameful, maybe so others feel more comfortable relating to, and perhaps not feeling so alone with what goes on, etc..