I really admire Dan Fincke having the courage to follow through with his convictions despite the personal cost to him. That is real stoicism, taking philosophy to the people and acting it out in real life rather than just talking about it. (This is no comment on Massimo, who is doing excellent work himself)
I think social justice movements have a lot to learn from Stoicism and cognitive behavior therapy. I agree that if you are offended, don't ban free speech and take on the victim role. That doesn't help you or anyone else. Speak against the points made by your opponent using reason.
Yet another one falls for the Anti-SJW bandwagon... Social Justice is not against Free Speech and for the most part implies the use of reason to determine what actions are good or bad depending on their consequences on people...
This directly addresses an issue I've been struggling with in relation to Stoicism (offense, morality and activism). Super grateful for the measured, intelligent, nuanced debate/exchange here. Thank you!
I'd love to see a part 2! One topic I'd like to see explored is whether the dichotomy of control is too black and white. To what extent can we actually control our thoughts and behaviors? How would a Stoic respond if they repeatedly failed to stick to a diet or remain civil around certain people? The question of whether we should always try to minimize the time spent feeling negative emotions is also interesting. Dan F mentioned that taking action on issues of social justice requires you to become agitated. If my mechanic tries to charge me more because he knows I don't know the first thing about cars, and I suspect that by assuming an angry tone I could be charged a more reasonable rate, what am I to do?
@Voids it's important to make a balance between not compromising on the primary characteristics, truths, and motivations of stoicism, and updating the philosophy given that it has effectively been dead for almost 2000 years. Human wisdom has advanced in that time, and it would be a disservice to stoicism, which is not a dogma (consider Seneca's statement that 'what is true is mine'), to relegate it to the position of a rigid classical doctrine which does not allow change. That would be to turn stoicism into a religion and stale academic interest rather than a living philosophy. I don't think the modernisers of stoicism like Massimo, William Irvine, Laurence Becker, Christopher Gill, and so on, are hollowing it out. Rather they are helping to develop stoicism into an even more robust philosophy.
On SJWs - there are real social justice issues, and it's a bit disconcerting that these issues are given short shrift because the label has become a pejorative. Justice, and social justice, should take more air time than all the time currently taken to push back on a minority of people who are in turn pushing to shut down a relatively small number of speakers, most of whom have many other platforms to spread their ideas. Free speech should be protected, yes, but triage the issues.
Thank you gentlemen for an excellent exchange! A few comments. Stoicism seems to be constantly correlated with fatalism, passivism, egocentrism and aloof and non-partisan existential states (all erroneously of course). I suspect a lot of this is due to the fact that people have forgotten how philosophy - historically speaking - was a most passionate human exercise, almost always closely linked with socio-political commentary. It is most unfortunate that academic philosophy was predominantly responsible for this poor projection of dry, non-humourous, dispassionate ivory-tower individuals. Not everyone can become a Marx of course! I loved the fact that all three interlocuters are speaking in clear jargon free language, by the way.
Is there any environment where it isn't adaptive to be a stoic? No regret and fear of the future. Three myths/misconceptions about stoics: Stoics never blush. That's surely maladaptive somewhere Stoics never cry. That surely arrest development, when adversity strikes. Stoics never confess. I consider confessing as a reset button, which gets you back on the right track. "ups I ate a cookie, so now I confess my transgression and start my life all over and try to stick to my diet." see Dan Ariely's on the What The Hell effect. ps. stoics can't go to the casino.. They only focus on the process and gambling isn't a skill you can improve.
A misconception and a myths was the same concept for me in that train of thought. But I see how my use of "myth" can be seen as the concept of some historical document or stoic text. Such as "three legends of the stoics". Actually a started out thinking Stoics never blush, cry or confess. But you change my mind. It was my own self-invented myths, a figment of my imagination, which you killed.
I really admire Dan Fincke having the courage to follow through with his convictions despite the personal cost to him. That is real stoicism, taking philosophy to the people and acting it out in real life rather than just talking about it. (This is no comment on Massimo, who is doing excellent work himself)
I think social justice movements have a lot to learn from Stoicism and cognitive behavior therapy. I agree that if you are offended, don't ban free speech and take on the victim role. That doesn't help you or anyone else. Speak against the points made by your opponent using reason.
Yet another one falls for the Anti-SJW bandwagon... Social Justice is not against Free Speech and for the most part implies the use of reason to determine what actions are good or bad depending on their consequences on people...
Interesting talk. Stoicism is a very pragmatic philosophy, and I plan on learning more about it and how I can adapt it to my life.
Please do another one of these! I'd love to hear more about Stoicism and art, among other topics! This was very fascinating and enlightening!
This directly addresses an issue I've been struggling with in relation to Stoicism (offense, morality and activism). Super grateful for the measured, intelligent, nuanced debate/exchange here. Thank you!
Glad to hear an open discussion and honest conversation. Wish to hear more...
I'd love to see a part 2! One topic I'd like to see explored is whether the dichotomy of control is too black and white. To what extent can we actually control our thoughts and behaviors? How would a Stoic respond if they repeatedly failed to stick to a diet or remain civil around certain people?
The question of whether we should always try to minimize the time spent feeling negative emotions is also interesting. Dan F mentioned that taking action on issues of social justice requires you to become agitated. If my mechanic tries to charge me more because he knows I don't know the first thing about cars, and I suspect that by assuming an angry tone I could be charged a more reasonable rate, what am I to do?
an excellent discussion; I have learned a lot!
thank you very much for the video, it was really interesting!
Pros and Cons OF Stoicism.
The modernization of Stoicism is critical for it to become viable and applicable today.
all that sounds like to me is softening it up to fit modern comfortable life. basic life and humanity are the same now and 2000 years ago.
Your statement is correct.
@Voids it's important to make a balance between not compromising on the primary characteristics, truths, and motivations of stoicism, and updating the philosophy given that it has effectively been dead for almost 2000 years. Human wisdom has advanced in that time, and it would be a disservice to stoicism, which is not a dogma (consider Seneca's statement that 'what is true is mine'), to relegate it to the position of a rigid classical doctrine which does not allow change.
That would be to turn stoicism into a religion and stale academic interest rather than a living philosophy. I don't think the modernisers of stoicism like Massimo, William Irvine, Laurence Becker, Christopher Gill, and so on, are hollowing it out. Rather they are helping to develop stoicism into an even more robust philosophy.
Green Deane No shit
please do another one of these
On SJWs - there are real social justice issues, and it's a bit disconcerting that these issues are given short shrift because the label has become a pejorative. Justice, and social justice, should take more air time than all the time currently taken to push back on a minority of people who are in turn pushing to shut down a relatively small number of speakers, most of whom have many other platforms to spread their ideas. Free speech should be protected, yes, but triage the issues.
Thanks. I return to this.
In the thumbnail it looked to me like Massimo was wearing a gold chain necklace. XD
37 minute mark: Stoicism is therapy.
Thank you gentlemen for an excellent exchange! A few comments. Stoicism seems to be constantly correlated with fatalism, passivism, egocentrism and aloof and non-partisan existential states (all erroneously of course). I suspect a lot of this is due to the fact that people have forgotten how philosophy - historically speaking - was a most passionate human exercise, almost always closely linked with socio-political commentary. It is most unfortunate that academic philosophy was predominantly responsible for this poor projection of dry, non-humourous, dispassionate ivory-tower individuals. Not everyone can become a Marx of course!
I loved the fact that all three interlocuters are speaking in clear jargon free language, by the way.
The bearded guy is "offended" at a funeral?. Are you offended when I say "fuck you"? Otherwise enjoyed Massimo's thoughts and comments.
Is there any environment where it isn't adaptive to be a stoic? No regret and fear of the future.
Three myths/misconceptions about stoics:
Stoics never blush. That's surely maladaptive somewhere
Stoics never cry. That surely arrest development, when adversity strikes.
Stoics never confess. I consider confessing as a reset button, which gets you back on the right track. "ups I ate a cookie, so now I confess my transgression and start my life all over and try to stick to my diet." see Dan Ariely's on the What The Hell effect.
ps. stoics can't go to the casino.. They only focus on the process and gambling isn't a skill you can improve.
A misconception and a myths was the same concept for me in that train of thought. But I see how my use of "myth" can be seen as the concept of some historical document or stoic text. Such as "three legends of the stoics".
Actually a started out thinking Stoics never blush, cry or confess. But you change my mind. It was my own self-invented myths, a figment of my imagination, which you killed.