Doctor Strange in the Multiverse of Madness: A Full Review - Intentionally Blank Ep. 60
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- čas přidán 26. 07. 2022
- Brandon Sanderson and Dan Wells talk all about Doctor Strange in the Multiverse of Madness and discuss Marvel's Phase 4, the desecration of Wanda Maximoff, and the big multiverse movie problem.
/ sanderson
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Produced by Adam Horne
Sound engineering and editing by Daniel Thompson - Zábava
One of my biggest problems (and I had a lot with this movie) was how Wanda single handedly takes out some of the most powerful people around, with relative ease. Then at the end, a child who can barely control their powers takes on Wanda and holds her off/holds her own against the same person who could just blink and completely incapacitate her.
Brandon himself has expressed a distaste for that type of dynamic between the big bad guy being taken down by the untrained newbie. He says it’s why he wrote the Mistborn series
There is a theory that "the most powerful people" in that universe weren't as strong as superheroes in 616 because Doctor Strange solved everything with a magic book. So they didn't become the strongest versions of themselves. So any superhero from 616 would've wiped out all of superheroes from that universe.
Possible Explanation: Wanda isn't trying to kill America, she needs her alive and in a certain condition so she can suck out her powers. She doesn't care about the rest so she can just tear through them.
@@chrisashford3379 that’s why I didn’t say “kill”. She easily could have just incapacitated her.
@guvcon I like your headcanon here. I don’t think the writers thought of it, I think they were just playing to the trope of an inspiring speech being all a kid needs to win any fight. But as a theory, it’s fun!
I’m with Brandon on this. Wanda’s journey from the rest of the MCU and then Multiverse of Madness was a complete change of character. Completely destroys the character without adequately explaining it
Trying to make her sympathetic despite her mind-controlling and abusing an entire town was their major mistake. Had they treated Wanda as a villain at the end of that show this movie would have made more sense.
@@uanime1 exactly. And in my headcannon I see it that way only. And actually there is bits in the wandavision show that justifies that. For example,
1) Wanda didn't stop the hex even after vision told that people are suffering
2) When Wanda did stop the hex, she still doesn't accept that she did the wrong thing. When Monica said (and she is completely wrong) , "They would never know what you sacrificed". She says , "that wouldn't change anything". As if she is a misunderstood person rather than doing all those evil and horrific thing to those people, keeping 100s of people away from their family and some even stuck in some actions just for her own gain.
I understand that, through that last conversation with Monica marvel was trying to estabilish Wanda as a sympathetic character, but I don't accept that. I see it in this way that Wanda still not accepting that she is at fault here. So Multiverse of Madness made a lot of sense to me.
Likewise... I hated Wanda in that movie and as a result hated the movie.
But she was corrupted by the spoOOoky booook! OooOOooh!! A very realistic and relatable downfall. Her story teaches a very important and relevant lesson: women shouldn't read. Wait, no...!!!
@@thegodofalldragons 😂😂
I feel like Wanda in the movie could be fixed with one scene: -- The villain is a Multi-Verse version of Wanda. Doctor Strange would obviously wants to recruit OUR Wanda to help. She refuses. "I can't fight her. It's taking everything that I have to resist the temptation to do what she is doing."
So, It shifts the evil doing to someone else and shows our Wanda making a choice, but struggling. Make it clear WandaVision is the event that stopped her from becoming the evil version.
What the frick, that would've been so much better.
I thought the same thing watching it. It seemed really obvious.
I like this take very much.
Still a possibility. If you noticed in the movie the main Doctor Strange was not the one from the normal universe. His stone was the mind stone (golden power signature) instead of the time stone (green signature).
Interesting premise. I think it works if you are trying to tell a story with Wanda as the protagonist rather than America (who I would argue should be the protagonist rather than Strange, who should be the main character/POV -- the movie actually tries to make both Strange and America protagonists, which is where most of the complaints Brandon has about that dynamic seems to come from).
Back to this premise - to me, your suggestion uses a "hero refuses the call" because Wanda would refuse Strange's request in the first act which to me sets up a "hero confronts the villain by overcoming their own character flaw" in the third act. No hard and fast rules but that would be the basic set-up for a movie like that. Of course, you could subvert that but keeping "good Wanda" out of the fight for the entire runtime would need to be addressed at some point. I have no better suggestions though so I like this
I’m so glad this podcast came out when it did. I watched the movie last night and needed some debriefing. Bad movies are just bad, but movies that have glimmers of greatness diluted by mediocrity and contradictions just irritate me. I’m glad some professional storytellers can articulate what went well and what didn’t.
I agree with you!!!
You may have seen it since posting this, but if you want a major deep dive into the movie, check out "Doctor Strange 2: An Unbridled Cataclysm" by the channel Mauler here on CZcams.
It's a VERY long watch, but has absolutely no fluff and nothing as useless as pointing out minute background errors. It is definitely one of the most fascinating videos I've seen in a long time. Highly recommend it.
For me, I felt they used the visual effects and fan nostalgia to cover over the severely flawed story telling and lack of continuity. The jokes also fell more flat than most Marvel movies.
Completely agree with Brandon's point about Wandavision!!! They destroyed Wanda
Marvel has a villain problem with phase 4. Shang-chi's father wasn't evil it was the rings, Wanda was corrupted by the book and Gor by the sword. None of them are responsible for their actions because they were corrupted by an outside force.
So are you saying people can't make mistakes anymore. If I found some money on the ground then killed people it would be the money's fault.
@@BigFootTheRealOne You're smart enough to know the difference between being corrupted by wealth and corrupted by a literal magical artifact.
even the new spiderman had the bad guys being bad guys because of some external force
That's a good point. It's easier to write villains when you don't need to come up with motivations.
Yes, this was one of the most annoying things about the new Thor and Dr. Strange. The trope drains villains of most potential interest and reduces them to near-caricatures, especially in Gor's case. For Wanda, her goal wasn't world domination or mass genocide, which was better, but her actions were still altered by magic and became exaggerated and distorted. Also, unless they had some magical corrupting ability that I forgot about, I didn't think the Ten Rings fit into this category. Their allure wasn't magical temptation but rather power and immortality. So, it was a far more human thing for Wenwu to be tempted by the Rings, like the allure of being a king, in line with the idea of the "power corrupts/power reveals" concept. But the "Evil God Killer Sociopath-Maker Sword" and the "Will Grant Your Greatest Desire If You Become a Twisted Version of Your Former Self and Kill People Wantonly Grimoire," are both disappointing uses of the corrupting-item trope to make villains more villainous instead of more human.
Also, Professor X wasn't trying to help Wanda. Took me a while to realize this but he was trying to free HIS world's version of Wanda from Evil Wanda's hold on her. He wasn't free Wand's light side from her dark side.
Yeah, it wasn't until I was watching those scenes on repeat on CZcams til I realized that.
Regardless, he was trying to help
Yeah, that was my read too, but I thought it could be either way
I’d love to see Brando expand on his disdain for redemption moments, as a lot of his complaints about Wanda and Anakin mirror my complaints about Venli. At least with Dalinar we get 2 books to get attached to a great guy before we get any real details of what a monster he used to be. In Venli’s case it’s, “She’s a whiny selfish jerk, and it turns out her selfishness also brought about the apocalypse.”
I think a big difference between His complaints and Venli is the severity of intent. Venli acted out of selfishness and spite, but didn't really understand the ramifications of her actions until it's too late. Her killing innocent people was a product of her possession, rather than intent.
Also, I think that his issue has to do with portrayal. Anakin's and Wanda's story depicts their fall as relatable and their redemption largely unearned with respect to the innocent people they harmed, whereas Brandon seems to be confronting Venli with the consequences of Her actions and not excusing or glossing over them.
Then again, idk. I would be interested in hearing about this too.
Uchiha Sasuke has entered the chat*
Hot take: Dalinar did nothing wrong. Of everyone involved in Evi's death, the people who bear the greatest degree of responsibility were Evi herself (betrayed her husband by going behind his back to negotiate with his enemies) and Tanalan Jr. (imprisoned her in a city he had every reason to believe was about to come under attack.) Dalinar did not know, and had no reasonable basis for being expected to know, that his wife was in the city, and once he found out he did everything within his power to save her; it simply was not in his power to accomplish it. Therefore, he bears no culpability in her death.
Dalinar acted with honor at every step. He originally refused to murder Tanalan Jr. despite his advisors predicting that leaving an heir alive could end badly. When Tanalan Jr., in a _stunning_ display of ingratitude, raised a rebellion against Alethkar, Dalinar followed the commands of his sovereign in going to the Rift to put down the rebellion. When Evi pled with him to try diplomacy rather than immediately attacking the city, he was willing to do so for her sake. This led directly to him being betrayed by both Tanalan Jr. and Evi, and while Evi's misdeeds can be excused to some degree due to her naivete, the same categorically cannot be said for Tanalan Jr, who was born and raised in politics!
He knew exactly what he was doing. He knew full well that the fragile, newly-forged Kingdom of Alethkar could not afford a city in open rebellion, that the only way Gavilar could respond that would not lead to an unacceptable outcome for himself would be to crush the rebellion. He rebelled anyway. He knew his city was about to come under attack, and he betrayed and captured Evi and held her in the doomed city. He used a Bond Villain deathtrap against a Shardbearer renowned for his immense levels of physical endurance, and then like a proper Bond Villain, _didn't stick around to ensure that Bond actually ended up dead._ Everything bad that happened to the Rift was the thoroughly predictable consequence of his actions.
The monster in this story is not Dalinar; it's Tanalan Jr.
@@masonwheeler6536 This is, of course, assuming burning innocent civilians alive in their homes is the right thing to do in a regional uprising.
@@Finn-xw4vn Again, what's the alternative? It was made quite clear that if the rebellion was not put down and quickly, it would have spread and torn the kingdom apart in a civil war, which would have killed a lot more people. Just about anything can be made to look good, or bad, by removing it from its context and viewing it only from one specific angle. But _in context,_ Dalinar had no good options and he chose the least-bad option available. Even the civilians were not particularly innocent; they could have rejected the usurper Tanalan Jr. and fought to prevent his rise to power, or they could have fled when Dalinar and Sadeas showed up with an army. Instead they chose to stay in (once again!) what was very obviously a doomed city at that point.
Actually, I think there is one thing Dalinar did wrong: letting the little boy Tanalan Jr. go. He didn't have to murder him, but that doesn't mean his only other choice was to turn him loose. The best option would have been to take him back to Kholinar as a prisoner.
My first thought on seeing Multiverse of Madness: They should have had Evil Strange as the ultimate evil, and Wanda should have been a semi-antagonistic deuteragonist, where she didn't trust Dr Strange (because she knows he can turn bad) and sometimes works at cross purposes, but when they finally confront Evil Strange they can work together and gain one another's trust.
But nope.
My thoughts exactly! An antagonist Strange and a Wanda who teetering would have made for a much better movie. If the evil book is corrupting her, show her dealing with the temptation and eventually choosing which path to follow.
@@cbpd89 Right! And see, there would come the character arcs. Dr Strange experiences this push pull...the revulsion of seeing what evil he's capable of, while simultaneously trying to help Wanda reject the Darkhold's influence. And Wanda, well...both of them are mirrors of one another to some extent. The cosmic power with the abyssal temptation. And the key to each one's temptation is love...the love of Christine, or the love of children...that turns to obsession. Seeing one another's strength and weakness could have been the 'explanation' each one needed to turn away from their darker impulses.
Anyway. My worst impulse is to rewrite every movie I watch, lol.
That sounds like a way better movie pitch to me
I would have loved this so much more!
Totally
There wasn't enough development for Wanda before this movie. I can see how she ended up in this place, but going from a troubled character to completely crazy was to much of a leap. It felt a lot like a certain character from the final season of game of thrones. They needed to spend more time on Wanda's mental deterioration. It's such a shame as she was one of my favorite characters and they wasted her potential.
i wouldn't compare wanda to danny.. wanda was far more reasonable.. she didn't just snap and aimlessly lash out.. she had a goal and people where standing in her way.. and she is not the protagonist of this story.. you wouldn't say thanos just snapped and killed gamora
@@Ra-Hul-K It was definitely worse with Danny, but it is essentially the same problem. The writers wanted the character to behave a certain way but didn't give enough motivation to make their actions reasonable.
personally i never saw wanda as a character with a selfless arc.. her childhood was ruined.. she and her brother basically joined a suicide mission program to take revenge against Stark and the avengers.. the way she messed up with each avengers' heads, she really enjoyed it and showed no remorse even back then.. then Ultron wanted to burn down the world, so they had no choice but to join the avengers.. she never particularly bonded with any of the avengers or their principles expect for a brief moment with hawkeye.. then she lost her brother.. met vision, fell in love.. vision got killed & experimented on by the government whom she fought for.. she snapped there.. went ballistic and made her own reality.. agatha and white vision ruined it.. showed some remorse there.. then she finds out she is scarlet witch reincarnated and has way more power than she thought she initially had.. the scarlet witch entity is itself mention as a pure chaos being.. she began tapping into it.. plus there's the darkhold that could corrupt her further.. plus there is no one in this world that she care about anymore except her imaginary kids.. Not particularly a saint character suddenly going psycho IMO
The way I see it, this Wanda is one that took Monica Rambeau’s speech at the end of Wandavision to heart. Remember how she was like “all these people who you stole the minds and lives of and forced to be your puppets for months have no idea that you’ve sacrificed more than anyone”? Well this Wanda thought “you are right, I’ve sacrificed enough, I can force my will on whoever I want. Time to be the worst version of myself!”
@@beefpelican
This is why you shouldn't enable abusers.
Agreed about the Wandavision problem. My second biggest complaint was America Chavez character arc.
Just belieeeeeeve!
The thing that really bothered me that wasn’t mentioned is that the Dark Hold was set up as being like the one ring: it’s always corrupting and a terrible idea to use it, and that’s part of the sell that Wanda turned evil, but then Strange decides to use it and it doesn’t matter for no reason. Why can Strange resist it when Wanda can’t, especially when their established characters should make it the opposite? And it further undermines the evil alternate Strange vs. main character Strange making the right decision to help America. Basically every single choice the characters make seem to be motivated solely by external plot demands rather than any consistent character development or really any kind of moral consistency
Something that I haven’t see a lot of people talk about is how the conflict in Multiverse of Madness is fundamentally a problem of Head vs Heart.
Wanda represents the heart. Her grief and love for her children has overwhelmed her to the point where she has lost the ability to make rational decisions and even, to an extent, had her personality subsumed.
Dr. Strange represents the head. He is compelled to make logical decisions throughout the movie even to the detriment of his own happiness or morality. This is why we see his alternate version make the utilitarian decision to kill America and take her powers.
The story ends when each of the main characters has to rely on the opposite process. Dr. Strange makes the less logical, but more moral, decision not to kill America and Wanda seeing her children’s fear forces her to think critically about her actions and their consequences. Both characters find balance and thus the conflict is resolved.
Thank you for coming to my TED Talk.
This kind of neat little tidbits ger lost in the sea of terribleness.
I was super disappointed with this movie for a lot of different reasons, which was an extra let-down because Wanda was my favorite character and the first Dr. Strange is in my top 3 non-avengers marvel movies. For reasons similar to what Brandon expressed, I found the whole Wanda goes completely evil with no conscience really jarring and the movie basically makes her an unredeemable character that I can no longer empathize with and will no longer want to watch. Even without the arc WandaVision gave her, this would have been uncomfortable, but after WandaVision did such a wonderful job of making us feel her pain and examine her grief and growth...watching her make the really hard decisions...it was just extra wild to see the 180 degree flip in Multiverse of Madness.
Besides that, I thought the writing was incredible heavy-handed and lazy. They definitely wanted us to compare Strange's darker desires to get Christine back with what was happening with Wanda, and they were sure to sign-post this comparison dozens of times throughout the movie until it made me question if they thought everyone in the audience was a turnip. It was so irritating. Then the lazy-storytelling of having America randomly step on a magic stone that would choose to display a video of her memory to give Strange and the audience the exact backstory and exposition they wanted us to know? Incredibly stupid.
I don't think they did a good job of developing the relationship between Strange and America at all. They definitely didn't make me buy into him trusting her. The chemistry was weird and didn't feel authentic. You can't pull off a Peter Parker x Tony Stark relationship that was developed over several movies in one movie, especially when the movie doesn't actually try to focus on developing that relationship...at all.
Wanda's powers were inconsistent. She could defeat the illuminati in seconds but then slow-chases a child down corridors and lets her get away instead of just...killing her? why? Why is she just walking and not using powers? Ugn Ugn Ugn.
That being said, Strange going and possessing his own dead corpse and the gothic horror of that whole sequence was absolutely a delightful 10/10. I wish the rest of the move was even half that great.
I find Brandon's aversion to Anakin very interesting seeing as he wrote a character like Dalinar. I'd be curious to hear him go into more detail about that.
I see Anakin and Dalinar as opposites. We start by seeing Anakin as Darth Vader, the murderer, and then go back and see his tragic backstory - how he became the monster we first saw him as. With Dalinar, we start by seeing him as an imperfect but striving man, the only one around him who is actually trying to be honest and forthright. Then we see his backstory and learn who the Blackthorn really was. In Dalinar's case, we start with a positive emotional connection to the character, and then find out he had a dark past. With Anakin, we start by despising him, then see how he became so cruel.
Is it possible that we see Dalinar in his redemption arc trying to fix all the things that he knows were wrong? We only really see Anakin begin a redemption arc with his death. Perhaps if Anakin had lived and worked to disassemble the imperial system that he had formed as well as shown how truly sad he was for his part in that system he would have been seen differently.
The difference is that Darth Vader by the end of his journey is a mass murderer, having a tragic backstory is not going to fix that. It's not a redemption arc, it's a person falling to darkness.
Dalinar in the other hand is someone who wants to change and be a better person, there isn't a tragic backstory to justify his actions. He was a monster in the past and now he is trying to be better.
@@fakub2026 and yet Brandon loves WandaVision, a show where we see Wanda torturing an entire town but oh it's okay because look she was sad
@@georgevelis4651 If that's the only thing you got out of Wandavision then it's a shame lol
The writer Michael Waldron said "Making her a villain from the get go. It was always like, ‘Well that’ll happen in an Avengers movie or something.’ My perspective was, ‘Why are we letting some other movie get the best villain ever?’"
I hate this lol
That is kind of funny in a perverse way, after destroying the character or even wasting a potential great villain like that.
I hate this too 🙋♂️
Michael Waldron is big writer for Loki, and I suddenly trust Season 2 a little less after reading this.
@@YoJesusMorales I think the problem is that they try and think of Wanda as a villain. After all of the media up to this point, the only way to make conflict work without ruining the character is to treat it as realistic conflict of interest. This movie tries to pretend it does this, but miserably fails by trying to mix it with the horror elements.
I love how Brandon wears a shirt during these things that always makes me sit back and say: "I never knew that shirt existed, but I must have it."
Wanda was my biggest gripe with the movie as well. She was my favorite female MCU character and they butchered her character just so the movie could have a villain.
When I watched the Blackbolt scene I had the following pop in my head.
"I have no mouth, and must scream." Then Blackbolt screamed
Oh dear god
Thank you Brandon for explaining why I felt let down by Multiverse of Madness. I knew it had to deal with lack of character arcs (especially Dr Strange himself), but wasn't sure how to explain it. America, the only unqiue character in the entire multiverse was treated as a MacGuffin.
I agree, he put into words what I was fighting with my roommates on why I didn't like the film, but loved Thor Love and Thunder
"Hugh Yalk-man" Was a pretty good pun dan. Slow claps 👏👏
One of my biggest gripes about the MCU is epiphanies that are found in one movie are ignored in others. Wanda is one example, but even farther back we had Iron Man 2 which dealt with Tony "reconciling" with his father, but his daddy issues were still front and center in Avengers (to say NOTHING about how Hulk's anger issues have been dealt with.) I know it's hard with so many cooks in the kitchen, but that's my gripe.
I so enjoy your reviews so please keep doing them!
Thanks for answering my question from the last episode on your thoughts of the multiverse in the MCU vs. Everything, Everywhere, All at Once.
Eternals was actually quite interesting. I would have liked to have heard Brandon's thoughts on the film because I can't help thinking he'd find some elements very interesting
Exactly my thoughts. I hope he reconsiders and tries watching it.
Eternals just needed to be two separate movies and they would have been very good
I consider the Emperor's Soul a kind of twist on multiverse, which I love. Being able to access your What If abilities and knowledge, and the access is difficult (through good forging).
I think Dr. Strange's arc was summed up with the line "You always have to be the one to hold the knife." When he heard that his idea that he has to be the one to save everyone started to shift.
Except that's never been his deal. He let himself be blipped for 5 years and put the fate of half the universe on Tony Stark's shoulders rather than hold onto the knife. When he screwed the pooch in No Way Home, he put Peter, Ned, and MJ fully in charge of capturing the baddies. It's just a bizarre line that's totally at odds with his other appearances in the MCU.
these always make my day 😊
"Mr Fantastic's head popping, that wasn't good for you, horror man?" lmao
13:50 Not alone there, Brandon. Doctor Strange is my favorite Avenger and favorite standalone Marvel movie as well.
Same! For me, he's only rivaled by Wanda. I did not like this movie lol.
Same
I also love the first Doctor Strange film and think the Stephen/Christine relationship is great, Brandon. You are not alone in that!
You guys are so articulate, and I really appreciate that. Also, I need to find me that Han shirt Dan is wearing.
I LOVE these reviews!!!
I thought it was pretty obvious what Stephen's character lesson was, and I'm surprised Brandon and Dan struggled with seeing this. The lesson was, "You've always gotta be the one holding the knife," meaning you always have to do everything yourself and you never trust anyone enough to take the lead. The evil Stranges were that way from start to end - wanting to take America's powers, wanting to use the Darkhold to kill Thanos, wanting to use the Darkhold to steal Christine ... what made our Stephen different was he trusted Wong, Christine, and America enough to take care of the things he couldn't. To let her be the hero instead of himself.
The lesson was about having humility and relying on others, which plays into his character arc from the previous films wherein his ego pushes everyone away, before sacrificing himself on the altar of endless pain before Dormammu; where he lets Christine and the other doctor perform surgery on the Ancient One; and where he threatens to kill Stark and Parker to protect the Time Stone before giving it up because "it was the only way" to both beat Thanos and get rid of the Infinity Stones.
Three thoughts:
I watched (the new) Dune and Eternals on the same day, and much preferred Eternals trying to fit a 6-10 hour series into a 3-hour movie over Dune stretching a 2-hour movie out over 3 hours.
My biggest issue with Multiverse of Madness is that they establish clear short-term and long-term goals for America: short-term, she wants to escape the person hunting her to try to take her powers; long-term, she wants to find her mothers. And then they give her a happy ending of getting to go to MCU Hogwarts to learn to be a wizard without making an effort to tie it to either of her goals.
For Dr Strange's decision at the climax, there are two things he's faced with repeatedly: the fact he isn't actually happy (which he finally acknowledges to alt-Christine); and his problem with always needing to be "the one holding the knife" - and it's that one that pays off with his decision to trust America (which leads to America's decision to give Wanda what she says she wants).
Ok i came back after watching a full recap of wanda vision bc i nver seen it and doctor strange movie because i nvr seen it just because i wanted to listen to you guys talk about it. 2 hours watched to watch a 37 min podcast…. Worth it
I don't know if Sanderson's thought process has changed or this has always been the intended reader reaction, but his sentiments about not caring about sympathizing with Vader's backstory is kinda how I always felt when it seemed like Mistborn was trying to humanize the Lord Ruler.
"I don't care what you think the greater goal was, Rashek, you literally created a slave race! On purpose!"
I think that’s the point of Mistborn. Rashek was not good. He did things for a great good, but using cruelties that were entirely unnecessary. It humanizes him, but more as a reminder of how the worst monsters are human. Unlike with Vader, it does not try to get us to sympathize or empathize with him, nor does it try to redeem him. Vin and Elend, knowing more than anyone else what TLR did for Skadriel, still disparage him to people like Yomen, who comes off as making the same kind of poor arguments as, “Well at least Mussolini kept the trains on time.” And even stalling for time, Elend pretty thoroughly dismantles the arguments. The only “good” character who supports Rashek’s actions was Preservation, and I think that was specifically to show that Preservation not always a good thing.
@@Florkl well said!
@@Florkl This.
@@Florkl There are some details my memory is a little hazy on, but I felt like by the end of Hero of Ages the books felt like they wanted me to sympathize with him. In my memory, I feel like Sazed toward the end said something about not being so critical of him in hindsight.
But memory is a faulty thing, I could be combining multiple bits together and getting a hazy result.
@@MJTRadio I do think it’s important to note that Sazed as Harmony is having trouble focusing on the individual human picture, and to call some of what he does in Era 2, “Questionable,” would be generous. I don’t think we can really call him a perspective of “good” once he ascends. Harmony is both Yin and Yang.
There are also ways Rashek messed up the ecology that were a result of him doing the best he could, and that were still better than the alternative of everyone dying. You can make the argument that, for these actions, criticism may not be as warranted, as Sazed would be realizing once put in the same shoes. Moving the planet and triggering Ashmounts, however, were entirely unrelated to the atrocities he inflicted on the Skaa and the Furuchemists, and therefore difficulty in fixing that catastrophe is not supposed to imply any justification or sympathy for him when it comes to everything else he does afterwards.
Happy I'm not the only person who found the first Dr. Strange movie to be their favorite solo Marvel Movie!!! And yes, I felt the chemistry between Stephen and Christine was there, but it definitely has the air of a couple that was struggling to figure out whether they were going to try to be a couple again or not because of past issues (likely his ego, and Christine wanting a bigger show of commitment from him).
I don't think that Doctor Strange was greedy, but he was arrogant. It wasn't that he _wanted the powers_ (either version of him), it was that he did not _trust_ her, as a person who is not Stephen Strange, to be able to do things well enough. He was incapable of trusting any other person to solve things as well as he could. Now intro-Strange was in a bind, since death was right around the corner and he didn't see a way out that was fast enough, but Stephen did grow in the sense that he became willing to _trust_ others.
I really liked Dan’s Huge Yak Man pun because I’m a believer in “the best puns are the bad ones” rule (which I just formulated). If the pun doesn’t cause facepalm it doesn’t qualify
I never expected to get an explanation to the origin of dad jokes, but hey thank you sir
I'm with Brandon on Dr. Strange's character arc being more about deciding not to take America's powers. We see a few times throughout the movie Christine making the remark that Strange always had to hold the knife, and that's why it never worked between them. So here, he decides finally not to hold the knife, but to let America hold it herself.
The headcanon I go with to justify this co-existing with Wandavision is that she more or less faked her happy ending to Wandavision to escape. I think it works if you watch Wandavision and assume she didn't actually learn her lesson, she just lost the battle. Look at it this way:
In Wandavision, her goal is to have her family, at any cost (even other people's freedom). She is unstable enough already to mentally and physically imprison people fulfill her happiness with Vision, and eventually her kids.However, over the course of the show as she loses control, she is losing the battle against the various forces trying to stop her (SWORD and Agatha) and knows that if she keeps being openly hostile to them, they will win. But Wanda outmaneuvers Agatha, and steals her power and the Darkhold. She sacrifices (temporarily) her manifested life and family, traumatizing herself even more by choosing to lose this battle, because now that she has the Darkhold and the powers of the Scarlet Witch, she has a new way to win the war. She pretends to have moved past it so that they'll let her leave in peace, but intends to plan a new method to get what she wants now that the Westview plan failed. So she sneaks the Darkhold out, and as the end credits scene of Wandavision shows, starts researching a new plan, now that she's even more determined to get what she wants after having that tantalizing taste of it.
I remember when Wandavision ended, this was this fuss online about Wanda's line as she leaves "They don't know what I gave up for them" being too self-centered and not really an apology for what she did, and undercutting the idea that she was accepting she was wrong. In this light, it works better: she's still thinking about herself, still wanting her goals. She grudgingly retreats from that fight, but plans a new one. She's too traumatized and fed up to be rational anymore, but she still escalates things reluctantly: first imprisoning people, then when that fails trying to steal America's power, and only killing other people once Strange tries to stop her from getting what she wants with minimal casualties.
Basically, Wandavision was her villain origin story. And like Brandon says, I think that's what they intended, but accidentally made the ending too wholesome.
Omg you're right; this head canon makes the butchering of her character a little better.
Yes! Once again Brandon nails it on the head. They took a great character and made her a cartoon villain. RIP WandaVision, the best Marvel thing done.
I think Brandon's greatest contribution to the world of writing and creativity is just showing us how consistent and efficient a successful published author can be. Here he is putting out entertaining content while at the same time fulfilling another duty of signing thousands of pages by hand.
I think the Doctor Strange character arc wasn't happening on the surface, it was still in the movie. He was told how he has to be the one holding the scalpel, being in charge. And how all the Stranges are the same. All this while seeing 3 alternate versions of him that went on that dark path. And so being confronted with those, he decided to let go of control, to change his path.
Watching this while super sick with covid but I love how Brandon Sanderson is so used to pens running out while writing that he without missing a beat just slips the pen on the page and movies on to the next pen
The Dr Strange character flaw at the beginning is that He Has To Be In Control.
They use the multiverse to facilitate his character growth. As Christine 2 puts it, "he has to be the one holding the knife." He is insecure about not being the Sorcerer Supreme (position of Control), which is why he doesn't bow to Wong. He doesn't trust other people to do a good job on their own and thinks it would be better if he had the power / the final say (his unilateral decision with the Time Stone in Infinity War). However, this is bad because it can lead to disastrous mistakes and makes him unhappy. So the movie shows him alternate versions of himself that pursued that line of thinking. Illuminati Strange didn't trust the rest of his team to handle Thanos, so he went looking for more power for himself, but that was a bad thing that killed a whole universe. Evil Strange wanted to have Christine, so he went looking for more power, but killed a universe as well and didn't get Christine. And Defender Strange (the undead one) was going to take America's "uncontrollable" power, which would have killed her, and ultimately got him killed. As Professor X says, "we shall see if you are like the other Dr Stranges". So by facing all of these "dark reflections" of himself (just in the form Variants rather than the usual trope of "Dark Reflection Villain"), Strange learns that he needs to let go of the knife, trust others, accept that Christine moved on, and relax his iron fisted control of his life. So he trusts America, and she wins. By the end, he accepts that he isn't Sorcerer Supreme, and bows to Wong. He relaxes, and is happy.
You realize this completely destroys his character from the first movie and Infinity War right? You bring up the Time Stone but he entrusted Stark to get the job done and sacrificed himself. He didn't have a problem not being in control there. But all of a sudden he cares about that stuff now? The film made up that conflict.
@@za-ir5ni BS. He was in control. He new every step of what had to happen, and how to make it happen. He trusted Stark and the Avengers to do their part because they were the knife he was holding. That is the power the Time Stone gave him.
@@za-ir5ni I agree it's kinda clunky and they don't pull it off flawlessly, since they have to slightly retcon his thinking in Avengers 3-4 a bit to make it fit. But that's why they have the whole conversation with Dr West at the beginning about the unintended side effects of Strange making the unilateral call to hand over the stone and his control hurting people; they're trying to frame it as him "he made the unilateral call himself, it was his plan that he was in control of because he'd seen the future." I agree its not perfect, but that's what happens when all the movies are written and directed by different people, you can't get seamless fits between them. I don't think it destroys his character, though.
I had a very hard time with Doctor Strange 2 because I wanted a Dr. Strange movie, not a WandaVision movie. Dr. Strange was a side character. Also, all the things Brandon says here is a big thing for me as well. She is just reverting back to WandaVision, but worse.
My biggest problem was the magic, I felt Doctor Strange was really handicapped. There are many things that they established and weren't used.
only thing i liked, is that they took the sling ring from him relatively early on.
portals are an entire can of worms you don't want to open just partially..
My problem was that there were millions of alternatives other than kidnapping some of the other Wanda's kids.
Dr. Strange 1 is also my favorite solo Marvel film, you aren't alone, Brandon 😁
The thing that I think annoys me the most about this treatment of Wanda is it would be just as if not more interesting to just not make her so bad and barely change the movie. Way I would
1. have her not randomly live in a horror movie forest for no reason other than a big revel.
2 have America actually go to live with Wanda and just have Wanda trying to help her use her powers to find a world where her children are alive
3 A scene showing that Wanda is now having nightmares about watching her children die in ways she could prevent with Americas powers
4. A Scene where she loses her patience with America and it slips that she was the one sending the monsters, but they really were just trying to drive her to Wanda and not trying to kill or drain anyone.
So we added 5-10 minutes and we have a better grounding for her actions and cleaner lead in for the rest.
5. Kahmertage happens basically the same except, instead of randomly killing wounded. the horror movie stuff is mostly theatrics and very few if any people die. Making this something not obvious would be best so you don't really realize it till later and its likely not brought up in the movie.
6. Make it a bit more clear that the Illmanuti are just a little too fascist for us to sympathize with them, not a big stretch based on their organization name.
7. Finally reavle at some point near the end of the movie that the only negative influence the dark-hold actually has is that it gets to choose your dreams.
So finals changes 3-4 extra scenes and a few small changes and her body count goes form a lot of random helpful wizards and the main heroes of a different universe to basically no one, 5 authoritarians, and an alternate universe doctor strange, but we know we should not care about those, and just as important, her character arc makes sense.
Man I love listening to Brandon just talk !! I don't know why but I do 😅
Brandon's dad joke theory is epic.❤💚
That suggestion at the end sounded awesome, it really gives weight to the tv show too.
I also really enjoyed WandaVision, but I completely disagree that it redeemed the character of Wanda, or that the Doctor Strange movie ruined her.
I say this is a fan of the comics Wanda since 1974: the MCU version has never been all that heroic. Enjoyable onscreen, and sympathetic, yes, but not heroic. And the television show portrayed a character who was grieving so much that she broke and tortured a town for a month. It ended with her basically saying “whoops my bad,“ and leaving. There was no redemption at all.
There was also no corrupting force: not the Darkhold, not the Scarlet Witch entity, not even, as hinted for an episode, Agatha Harkness.
It was just Wanda, doing what she wanted, albeit unconsciously.
The series also went out of its way to show that the Darkhold was a corrupting book of evil magic. The flashback of Agatha‘s origin story showed the other witches in her coven saying just that, that it corrupts anyone who attempts to use it. In the same scene where she argues that’s not the case, she kills everybody.
Evil book corrupts everyone who tries to use it.
End of the series: Wanda is reading the book, attempting to use it…
How is it a surprise that the next time we see her she is corrupted by it? She was already pretty evil. Then she tries to use the evil corrupting magic book.
Rather than some abrupt heel turn or a betrayal of the character, I feel the Doctor Strange movie was a smooth segue from where we left Wanda at the end of her series.
The thing I didnt like: They set up Christine as a multiverse EXPERT, and dr strange as hugely powerfull, but useless when it comes to multiverses, and then the 2 of them get lost in a 3rd dimension needing to get back. The obvious solution is that the 2 of them have to work together, leveraging Christines knowledge with dr stranges power to get back (needing to go through paint world some how). Instead, its just dr strange who solves everything
I'd LOVE to see Brandon commenting on the MCU's magic system.
I still think there was a sympathy problem with Wanda. Couldn't the other Wanda's have come together and let her spend time with their kids? She was hurting in a way any parent could sympathize with and no one helped her.
She was killing people because she didn't have 2 imaginary children she created while abusing a town, which she spent a few months with at most. She needs to be institutionalised, not given access to children who already have a loving family.
Wanda got the Daenerys Targaryen treatment. Sure, you could say there were warnings of her going crazy, but there wasn’t enough build up to feel like they didn’t just throw out a character we’ve known for years. Sad to see well written female characters always dying or going evil in fantasy.
But she didn't go crazy, she was just rotted by the darkhold it wasn't a gradual character development it was just dark magic changing her mind
I think we can call this phenomenon in writing/scripting as "The Daenerys Treatment". When you have a character that started off strong and/or a protagonist, but then the writers turn them into antagonists and use "warnings" without sufficient build-up to justify the switch. Usually happens when writers either don't feel they can write a strong antagonist or are creatively bankrupt, they instead turn to an already-established character to fill that role.
I mean id have to disagree . She spent her childhood as a military experiment , had to kill her partner only to watch him be revived and killed again. Then westview was pretty much a fucked up coping mechanism she also lost and the darkhold probably was probably just the last nail in the coffin.
Id say her going mad makes sense.
Everyone just likes Daenerys and therefore hated that she was the villain. To me, doing whatever was necessary to secure the throne was always in her character, in the books and the show. Also, villains in real life are often very likeable, another source of the gray in human behavior from the series.
Wanda's turn was worse imo.
Doctor Strange (1) was my spouse's favorite as well! for many of the same reasons you listed! she also thought she was alone lol
I think they should have made Wanda’s reveal as the villain an Act 2 turn not Act 1. Let us spend time with hero Wanda for a bit, watching her fight alongside Strange and Wong, and then mid fight in Act 2, have them make the revelation “this isn’t sorcery…it’s witchcraft.” And then the big turn.
I really hope you guys review The Batman! I'd love to hear both of your thoughts on the story, characters, and arcs in that film!
100% agree with Brandon. I loved Wanda Vision and the Wanda character, so ended up not liking this movie much.
However, I would love to compare Dr. Strange taking America's power with Dr. Strange being tempted to use the Dark Hold. I felt the temptation to use the Dark Hold, like other Stranges did, was meant to make us wonder if he would also fall into temptation and take America's power in the end. Of course, in the end he used the Dark Hold with no consequence and didn't take America's power because of "good guy" so whatever connection might have been drawn was lost. But I wonder if the ending would have been more meaningful and organic if the questions around the Dark Hold better related to or somehow influenced the final choice to not take her power.
Anyway, enjoyed hearing your thoughts on this movie!
I wanted some sort of temptress element of the heros journey with Christine. It would be interesting for Dr strange to be tempted to give up the hero's journey because he can be with Christine in a different reality and then he achieves atonement and continues the journey giving up the opportunity. Too bad they never did this.
The first Dr. Strange is also one of my faves. I'm glad it gets love from someone like Brandon.
I'd love to see Profesor X show there past to America and Strange insted of the past television tecnology. That could have been the scene that makes us care about Prof X and makes Wanda so cruel for not even giving a chance for redemption. She may be its really scare of trauma, maybe she wanna eliminate all chances for her children to lives somthing like that. Our fathers want the best jobs, the best house, the best oportunities, they want to give their child what they don't have as a they grow up.
The leason he learned was: He doesnt has to be always in control. He needs to trust others
Watching this feels like I am Brandon speaking my personal opinion. Exactly every word is how I felt.
Brandon you are not alone in having Dr. Strange as your solo Marvel movie, it's mine as well. And because of that I think I was significantly harsher on this movie than you were. I think I just don't put as much value in something being Sam Rami style. 5/10 For me.
Regarding your statement that you understand the movie perfectly without having seen Wanda Vision; As someone who has not yet watched it, I felt like I was missing a lot by not having seen it the entire time. Though based on your comments I think that feeling would have been replaced by disappointment if I had. She fell flat as a villain for me and I thought that was because I lacked Wanda Vision context, but apparently that context would have made it worse.
One complaint I had that you didn't mention, at least in detail, was the lack of connection to other multiverse stuff in the MCU. Not even a nod to the events of Loki, and no mention of the events of No Way Home, which Dr. Strange was heavily involved in. Why have multiple properties cover the same concepts if you aren't going to connect them in some way? Both ended with implications that there would be ramifications for the multiverse and I expected this movie to address those, if not be actually about those.
I also think the climax fight, while great, was very poorly timed. The amount of times they cut back to the Scarlet Witch pointedly not stealing America's powers while Wong slowly climbed up the mountains. The entire setup with the alter there and her new minions was also poorly explained.
Probably one of my biggest gripes was actually the direct Evil Dead reference. I love Evil Dead and Bruce Campbell, but having Dr. Strange punish him for simply demanding payment for food by having him punch himself in the face for multiple weeks was just too far. It was so grossly out of character for Strange and so mean and petty that I couldn't enjoy the reference. Instead it felt like it was forced in to the detriment of the film.
If you ask me, Doctor Strange has a pretty clear character arc in this movie. After making the one choice that helped save half the universe's population, he is struggling not to try to control everything and everyone around him. He would be able to do so pretty easily. In other words, he needs to learn to let go and let other people make mistakes in order for them to grow. I'm not saying they executed the arc flawlessly, but it is quite strange to me that such an obvious arc wasn't noticed by these 2 gentlemen. After all, that's why you have that one guy at the wedding in the beginning saying that Doctor Strange is the most powerful superhero. Not killing America is Strange's arc in this movie completed as he allows her to take control. He let go of his view on how things were supposed to go.
16:30 ish onward. the repeating theme between all the Stranges relates to him and Control. Our Strange has a nightmare where he sees a version of himself being controlling to the point of trying to kill his ally. He then goes to a wedding where we learn his love interest found someone else. Christine tells him that they couldn't work because, he can't let someone else hold the knife.He hears about this from both Christines in the movie. The Illuminati suspect Strange is a greater threat because Strange being pathologically a controlfreak is what got him killed after he destroyed a universe. Dark Strange seemed to have also destroyed his own universe.The point of letting America use her powers was that he was giving up control and trusting in her.
The main issue with this lesson about change in Strange is that he already had given up control before. Strange letting go of the knife was the entirety of ENDGAME. Maybe it doesn't count because he saw into the future and set things in motion towards eventual victory, but that was a lot of trust to put in trillions of interactions over the course of five years to lead all the way to Hulk's snap.
For the "Doesn't say the AU me has to be alive"..
That's a great payoff, i agree. only wish there was a setup to go along with it.
My reaction wasn't "oh yeah you're right that's cool"; it was "yea ok if you say so i guess"
Not saying something is not setup for it to happen later, unless you're specifically avoiding mention.
The MCU magic system just isn't robust enough to toy with its magic like that
Hears Brandon's critique of Anakin's prequel story arc.
Nervously looks over at Oathbringer on shelf.
Sigh....oh Blackthorn...things had been going so so well
For me personally this movie didn't really work, but I'm also not a fan of Sam Raimi's work at all.
I really hate how they built up all the cameos in the trailers only to immediately kill of all the interesting ones (Reed, Black Bolt, Xavier) and have the other two fight Wanda even though they’re just basically Captain American & Marvel
That bit about dad jokes makes absolutely so much more sense now 😭 always wondered why they were so bad, but now, now I understand
I think Wanda was already unravelling during Wandavision, and she didn't have a completely redemptive arc in the series. She still left town in shame, she still lost, she still went off with the darkhold. I think with 616 Strange, I don't think killing America was ever an option for him. His character has always been the reckless self sacrifice kinda play. He will put himself into any situation to win. Like dormamu for example. But not others.
I think one of the best movies where multiverse problem solved is 'Primer'.Stakes are real because everything with characters could go worse regardless infinite number of their variants.
Professor Brandon makes me laugh.
With hindsight, which is always very convenient, they could have gone for a that-isn't-really-wanda scenario. When Wanda was experimented on by the baron she saw the outline of the Scarlet Witch approaching so they could have played it like there was an external entity that combined with Wanda to create the (would become immoral) Scarlet Witch. Remove the entity and Wanda could become moral again. Since I assume that scene was always part of the Wandavision scenario they could have used it in the movie.
I mostly agree with Brandon on what they did with Wanda, except that she wasn't completely redeemed at the end of Wandavision, she floated away in the end without taking (legal) responsibility for what she had done to Westview. She placed herself above other people, the rule of law be damned.
YES! When they go into her mind to show her trapped I really thought it was Wanda under the control of the Darkhold trying to get out, not the Wanda from that universe trapped in her own mind. I think they could have teased the "real" Wanda breaking free of the Darkhold then
In regards to the universe 616 issue, as there are an infinite number of universes, and one began numbering others, how many other universes began doing the same numbering system? There could be thousands of universe 616's that no film director could denounce.
The movie was enjoyable generally and deeply troubling in toto. The Morale seemed to be 'if you're unhappy, take heart in knowing somewhere out there, there is a you that is happy. Their happiness is your happiness.'
Honorable mention to the storefront that reads your mind and projects your private memories for all around to see.
I left for the bathroom at that point, the premise made my skin crawl.
What disappointed me about this movie the most is how boring the fight scenes are. Like sure, the music fight and the ghost cloak are decent, but they’re doodoo fights when compared to the Infinity War fight. Like it lacks the imagination and creativity you can have with magic fights.
Like, as much as I didn’t enjoy Love and Thunder, at least that movie had some pretty sweet action scenes. Too much jokes though, could have used more serious moments and Gorr killing gods.
bruh
I agree with Wanda's heel turn toward utter evil being much too fast. Showing that the Darkhold is making her act against her will could have solved that for me. Her oburd level of power is also an issue that could have been explained with the Darkhold having taken control.
I disagree with Dr. Strange's lack of character development being an issue. To me they're setting up that alternate versions of Dr. Strange have ended up making choices that were too risky/dangerous and implying that those decisions were not his to make. A pillar of Dr. Strange's character is being extremely competent, but arrogant to the point of messing with powers that can doom realities somewhat brashly. So it's less the main multiverse Dr. Strange turning from risky/dangerous to responsible but rather him being at a crossroads. Will he will choose to be risky/dangerous like all the failed versions of himself he sees in other multiverses or will he learn from them? It's almost like a more subtle ghosts from A Christmas Carol.
I think a major problem with how most multiverse stories operate is they assume that Character X has "variants" across all possible universes, but that's a bad way of thinking about it. In a truly infinite universe/multiverse, there are bound to be an infinite number of people who resemble (and even match!) you, but that doesn't mean they ARE you, or are "variants" of you. A "me" who believes fundamentally different things than I do and does things I never would or could isn't "another me", it's another person who just so happens to resemble me.
"you always have to hold the scalpel"
There were many moments where I was able to "fill in the blanks" left by Easter eggs and and one sentence references to major events in Wanda's life from the comics. I was not surprised by Wanda's quick turn to the Darkside because we saw her reading the Darkhold at the end of WandaVision. I can't think of anyone who was not corrupted after reading the Darkhold in the comics. It is especially dangerous for Wanda in the comics as the author of the Darkhold is the same Elder God that gave Wanda her Chaos magic. She is meant to be the portal for C'thon to enter the physical plane. He gets a name drop in the movie but isn't brought up again.
The meta reason I was not surprised about Wanda's turn to villainy is that for my years of comic collecting in the 80's-90's this was a reoccurring plotline for Wanda. Her children become gloves for Master Pandemonium and the magic that made them up is given over to Mephisto and Professor X has to wipe her memory before Wanda looses it. Her android husband looses his personality and his interest in her and she gets a bob and decides to ditch the West Coast Avengers for her dad and his Asteroid base. Then there was that time when she regained her memory of her magic made children and suddenly there were no more (mostly) mutants, and she's a princess, and her daddy is king. So...I knew what I was getting into. She and Jean Grey (and Rogue) are my favorite Marvel women. Both of these ladies have access to power no mortal has a right to hold and it and the relational complications it creates are a constant threat to your mental well being.
Finally, one I've seen.
Holy gods I need that Cuzco shirt
They call it corruption when it should be possession. It is a problem in Multiverse of Madness, and Love and Thunder. The stated motivations of the antagonist at the start do not mesh with their later behavior. You have a magic item that offers some power to solve an upfront problem, but in using it the character opens themselves to being controlled by the item while thinking it was their idea. At a certain point the will of the user is tricked and, suppressed when the item is allowed to use the host as a direct conduit. They could have done this with the Xavier scene, but the trapped Wanda there is that universe's Wanda being dream walked by Universe 199999(the official numbering for the MCU universe) Wanda. That scene could still be retrofitted to show this by making the evil Wanda out of pages from the Darkhold and having its symbol on her forehead and the back of her hands. That signifies slavery, or servitude.
That Sanderson guy really went off on Scarlet Witch and Anakin Skywalker for going bad mid story. He can literally never watch them be redeemed.
I wonder if he's ever heard of Moash.
Brandon's reaction to the possibility of a redemption arc for Wanda makes me feel hopeful that a certain Stormlight character won't get one.
F. M.
By the sounds of his (deserved) rant there, I would agree. There comes a point where a redemption arc just becomes a kick in the teeth for the audience and he seems very aware of that line. Hopefully the character we are thinking of gets everything he deserves.
Some strong words regarding Vader coming from the guy who wrote Dalinar
Darkhold was also refrenced to and shown to be corrupting in Agents of the Sheild
36:23
Its what I felt when they named as 616 lol.
I always felt like wanda was an avengers level threat the emotional impact of them facing her especially hawkeye would be more intense. And yes, I literally almost cried when he became zombie strange it all played out so well in that sequence
I need to do a re watch - I didn't see the taking of her powers as being a selfish act for Dr. Strange.... I saw it the way Dan saw it.
YES! They let Sam Raimi be Sam Raimi, and I thoroughly enjoyed that, especially the Zombie Strange with his Cape of Damned Souls scenes and the Illuminate kill scenes. I also laughed with horrorific glee at the Blackbolt death.