Ep.1 & Ep. 2 of LOTR: The Rings of Power - Ep. 66 of Intentionally Blank
Vložit
- čas přidán 2. 08. 2024
- Brandon Sanderson and Dan Wells talk about "LOTR: The Rings of Power" tv show Ep. 1 & Ep. 2, and their view on each branching storyline and point of view.
/ sanderson
Can be listened to almost everywhere podcasts can be found.
Produced by Adam Horne
Sound engineering and editing by Daniel Thompson - Zábava
My favorite part of Tolkien discourse is how its discussed. When people talk about Tolkien lore, they talk about it from a history perspective, like it's something that actually exists and happened.
I think that this might be the greatest compliment towards Tolkien's work. He always lamented the fact that his culture had no or very few myths and legends - save perhaps King Arthur. Yet through his diligent work in crafting those languages, cultures, and various (sometimes conflicting) accounts of events, he did not just create a captivating world to house his work; he succeeded in creating legends and myths that rival those of our own world. My god, what a BAMF haha
I’ve heard that Tolkien himself would often talk about his world and stories as history. I read somewhere that in interviews he would say that he found the red book that bilbo, Frodo and Sam wrote in and that he only translated it rather then wrote the lord of the rings and the hobbit.
Agreed. I feel like it's a mark of the highest of world-building. Seems like Martins's world is slowly entering this space as well.
That's the first thing Peter Jackson said to the LOTR cast before shooting. 🎉🎉
I think Brandon and Dan are being held hostage. There's no way they'd get right into the main topic.
Has to be😂
"If I hear the words "food heist" Ben gets it."
I have another feeling.
First, they are very nice people and don't want to say openly that something is very bad. I don't remember them saying "this is awful, bad, etc." about anything.
Worst case will be like this Rings of Power show: they will just say "we liked it, and here is a list what we didn't like" And the list will be longer than the list of things they liked :D. They were looking positive things even in "Cats", so you got the point I am trying to make :)
Second, they are big writers who want to work with people from movie industry, are working with them and will work with them in the future. So they can't criticize this show or any other show or movie like some youtube bloggers do.
Even though I completely disagree with their opinion and hate the show, I still enjoyed watching this podcast :)
@Dumatt and what if, like many others, they just genuinely like the show?
@@mrnemoid Then I am happy for them and many others.
Enjoyed the review. The original owners of the Elven Rings of Power were Galadrial, Gil-Galad, and Cirdan the Shipwright. When Gil-Galad fell at the end of the second age it transferred to Elrond. Cirdan gave his to Gandalf who he felt was the appropriate bearer.
Gil-Galad was the owner of 2 of the ring along with Galadriel, he gives 1 to Cirdan and another to Elrond. I can't remember if Eleond received after the forge or after the death of the high king, but Cirdan wasn't get the ring from celebrimor but from Gil Galad.
@@dmon9806 still the point is if they put Gandalf in the show as first and only bearer, it would be completly new with many ramifications in the show, also the absense of cirdan in the show kind of make this idea very likely because cirdan give Gandalf the ring and cirdan along side galadriel warned celebrimbor of annatar. The show clearly won't do that because cirdan could have easily been her only ally in the first two episodes.
Importantly, Cirdan gave his ring to Gandalf when Gandalf arrived in Middle Earth.
Thus, Mithrandir was NOT present when, or before, the rings were forged.
To clear up some confusion about the three elven rings, the ring that Gandalf wears was originally given to Cirdan the Shipwright and Celeborn does not wear the third ring that’s Elrond.
And unless I am mistaken, Gandalf doesn't receive his ring until the Third Age, yes?
I was about to comment this myself!
@@magicscreenman Correct. Cirdan gives to him right as he lands on the shores basically.
@@magicscreenman Correct, Gandalf was sent to Middle Earth in the Third Age. When he arrived in Mithrond he was welcomed by Cirdan, the oldest and wisest elf in Middle Earth. Cirdan had a great gift for foresight and gave Gandalf the ring Narya as he knew it would be if great help. Celebrimbor had originally given all three rings to Gil-galad, who had in turn given them to Galadriel, Elrond and Cirdan before going to the final battle against Sauron where he was killed. Sauron’s defeat at that battle is what marked the changing of the Ages.
If they stick to established Tolkien lore, then yes, Gandalf does not show up until the beginning of the third age, and is given Narya by Cirdan.
I hope it's not gandalf because its part of his character that he arrives as last of the wizards,not the first. Because he is reluctant, thinks himself not good enough for the job and fears Sauron. Who has already revealed himself. He gets his ring second hand. It's all these reasons why Saruman falls and he does not. And he is the only wizard who actually accomplishes his task. Gandalf arriving and getting his ring is more like a marvel style after credits scene or epilogue moment.(i should probably correct myself and say i really hope its not gandalf, they can ofcourse do whatever they want)
I saw a theory that all 5 of the different meteor shots are different wizards. Mind blown 🤯
@@TarmakWorm hmm well i feel like that could work if this show didn't already have so many different characters and the fact that they have said they shortened the entire age to a human lifetime. I still prefer the theory its one of the blue wizards. Or if its actually Sauron and we see his power by slowly corrupting the hobbits. To show that the hero's of the books/movies would be absolutely powerless when faced against him at full power. It would be a great way to build fear in the audience.
Do you think Amazon cares about Gandalf's character? It's is Gandalf of because Amazon wants it to be Gandalf nothing else matters to them .
Gandalf is the only wizard who we know when and how he arrives as Cirdan gives him his ring when he arrives in the Grey Havens; so making the stranger Gandalf would be as drastic a change as you could likely get.
It would fit much better if the Stranger is Saruman.
Hope that's the case.
Brandon accurately predicting who was gonna be sauron so early on is freaking hilarious
I would be surprised if he didn't. It's kind of obvious...
@@FebbieGFor real. Show wasn't exactly subtle..
“Gandalf has to show up in this show” Unfortunately, Brandon is asserting this based on storytelling rules and not the lore the show is based on. Gandalf should not show up until after Sauron makes the One Ring and is vanquished. He has no part in the conflict until Isildur cuts the ring from Sauron’s hand. He does not overlap with Gil-galad or Numenor, either.
It's one thing to make something lore accurate and another to make an enjoyable show that people are excited about, people who spent 20 years worldbuilding write horrible books a lot of the time Tolkien was the exception, not the rule
But it’s a good on ramp for grandmas /s
@@mikeostwald9645 I agree with you, but Gandalf does not need to be in this show to accomplish that.
@@mikeostwald9645 at least you’re admitting it’s an attempt to sell a product to as wide an audience as possible using superficial familiarity to Tolkiens beloved work as opposed to actually respecting the work and being motivated by a desire to share it with a new audience, confident that it will appeal to others as it appealed to you.
The irony of course is the good will general audiences have towards LOTR (that Amazon is attempting to capitalize on) is a direct result of Jackson’s respect for Tolkiens own work…
One is a soulless attempt to capitalize on the popularity of art, the other IS art. To the mindless consumer, they’re indistinguishable and that’s precisely who Amazon is targeting.
To be fair, Galadriel had no part in the war with Morgoth, yet that seems to be the driving force of her main character so far in this show.
I had the same thought when Elrond was walking up to Moria. Almost felt like Game of Thrones fast travel. Like, isn't that at least a couple days walk? Where's their food?
Also, if it's true to the lore, it can't be Gandalf. Gandalf didn't come around until like 1000 years into the third age, and he was given the ring by Cirdan the shipwright.
It was some pretty ridiculous fast travel, but elves can go months without eating. That's something that also applied to Galadriel in the ocean, my assumption is she was literally out there swimming for months while Elrond was walking around middle earth. only way she would react so strongly to being given water.
they didn't even change clothes in to something more appropriate for travel
I don't think this show is gonna be true to any lore...
To me it felt like they walked down to their neighbor down the street to ask for a cup of sugar.
@Tanktaur then you obviously don’t know the lore very well, because the show has already included some direct references to the lore.
Celeborn never had a ring. Cirdan had one and gave it to Gandalf. Gil-galad gave his to Elrond. Galadriel either had hers from the outset or was given it by Gil-galad, depending on version of writing.
Celebrimbor gave Nenya directly to Galadriel as soon as Sauron revealed he had made the one ring and betrayed them. Galadriel advised Celebrimbor to hide the three from Sauron.
It's kind of feels like when you are in a writing group and you're being very nice and generous to someone's terrible writing
It is an incredible confidence builder to know that I am far more of an expert on Tolkien’s lore than Brandon.
Gandalf is given the ring by Cirdan the Shipwright much later in 1,000 of the Third Age, when Gandalf arrives. Gandalf is absolutely not around in the second age.
A few things:
1. Been relistening to Oathbringer and realized Brandon has food heists in it
2. I think the best way to deal with Elrond ending up as Galadriel's son in law is to not worry about it or even address it at all in this. Let Elrond remain a happy bachelor in the show for it's entirety
3. Some have already pointed out, but the original bearers of the 3 elven rings were first Gil-galad and Galadriel. Then Gil-galad gave his two rings to Elrond and Círdan (and then much later Círdan gives his ring to Gandalf)
What's a world without food heists? 🤣
#2 is an excellent idea.
#3 With "much later" is meant: In the third age, like ~2500 years AFTER these events of the rings of power which happen in the middle of the second age. This is the problem most tolkien fans (that actually went through the lore carefully) have. Especially if meteor guy happens to be Gandalf just for the sake of having him in the series. It has to be Sauron.
#2 Well this happens like ~1600 years later within the third age. Its easy to ignore this since this series plays in the second age.
Wait, Gil'Galad just casually Dual Wields the Rings of Fire and Water? Chad move...^^
(Is this where GRRM got the idea for his Song of Ice and Fire from?)
They make a point in the first episode of a torch's fire not burning someone or providing warmth because the area is "very evil." Have yet to see anyone mention when Nori puts her hand in the Stranger's crater fire and says "it doesn't burn." There has to be a connection there. Otherwise, why make the point about non-burning fire twice?
I'm currently watching Fellowship and when Gandolf takes the ring out of the fire and offers it to Frodo he surprisingly says it's quite cool after Frodo looks concerned about getting burned. I can't remember if this is similar in the books, but I like the possible connection there.
@@katlyndugenske there's no connection there. It was to prove the ring couldn't be harmed or melted anywhere but Mt. Doom. The ring was so resilient it wasn't even warm from a hearth fire.
The human/elf relationship is not common in tolkien world is very known but very, very rare, hence the importance. Theres only 3 relationships in entire legendarium, Tuor with Idril, Beren with Luthien and Aragorn with Arwen, they have to make something really special or tragic with arondir and bronwin to make it work.
There is also Andreth and Aegnor - I suspect they could be using their story as a base
Good luck with that
There's also the ancestor of Prince Imrahil marrying the elf Mithrellas. Legolas notices Prince Imrahil has elf blood pretty quickly.
@@SNWWRNNG Oh I didnt know about Mithrellas, thanks!
The stranger can't be Sauron. Sauron is incapable of appreciating hobbits (or fake hobbits, whatever). It's his major weakness. He couldn't imagine being defeated by a creature that no one thinks much of, so there's no way he would happily mingle with them, even for the purposes of fooling everyone, because he doesn't consider them worth his time. Same way Voldemort underestimated house elves or a mother's love.
Yeah, that was a big thought of mine, that Sauron is barely even aware that hobbits exist and does not respect them in any way, shape, or form. If the stranger is Sauron, connecting him to the Harfoot plotline was a huge fumble
@@StarryEyed0590 Which is why it's not the case. The writers know what they're doing. If you ignore the internet hysteria you'll see they're setting the stage pretty well.
@@cabalpaxiarch7239 The awful dialogue would like a word with you...
IMO there is a very specific reason why the map faded to black and they didn’t tell you exactly where Arondir and Bronwyn are… because the location itself is a spoiler
The land of Mordor, where shadows lie… right?
@@dant5349 that’s what I think… but it took me a minute to figure that out, because I was just caught up in the narrative. Arondir and Bronwyn’s story Is the origin story of the place, I think.
Ooooooh... In that case the elf captain's line about "can you believe this used to be a barren wasteland?" is foreshadowing!
On Harfoots, it's kind of on page 1 of Concerning Hobbits Introduction chapter:
"It is plain indeed that in spite of later estrangement Hobbits are relatives of ours: far nearer to us than Elves, or even than Dwarves. Of old they spoke the languages of Men, after their own fashion, and liked and disliked much the same things as Men did. But what exactly out relationship is can no longer be discovered. The beginning of Hobbits lies far back in the Elder Days [First Age] that are now lost and forgotten. Only the Elves still preserve any records of that vanished time, and their traditions are concerned almost entirely with their own history, in which Men appear seldom and Hobbits are not mentioned at all. Yet it is clear that Hobbits had, in fact, lived quietly in Middle-earth for many long years before other folk became even aware of them. And the world being after all full of strange creatures beyond count, these little people seemed of very little importance."
"Before the crossing of the mountains the Hobbits had already become divided into three somewhat different breeds: Harfoots, Stoors, and Fallohides. The Harfoots were browner of skin, smaller and shorter, and they were beardless and bootless; their hands and feet were neat and nimble; and they preferred highlands and hillsides....The Harfoots had much to do with Dwarves in ancient times, and long lived in the foothills of the mountains. They moved westwards early, and roamed over Eriador as far as Weathertop while the others were still in Wilderland. They were the most normal and representative variety of Hobbit and far the most numerous. They were the most inclined to settle in one place, and longest preserved their ancestral habit of living in tunnels and holes."
Celeborn doesn't ever get a ring. Cirdan the Shipwright (at the Grey Heavens) gets his ring from Celebrimbor and gives it to Gandalf, when he arrives by boat around the year 1000 (1050?) of the Third Age.
I think that if The Stranger turns out to be Gandalf, he may be referred to as Olórin.
Thanks for this. I like the inclusion of Harfoots in this show. Good to know there is an in-lore justification for them
Sounds like Hobbits have existed since the first age, who said they weren't supposed to be in the show?
Elrond’s parents are both Half-Elves, Eärendil and Elwing. Eärendil is the child of Tuor and Idril. Elwing is the granddaughter of Beren and Luthien, through their son Dior.
And then aragorn,a descendant of Elronds brother Elros marries his cousin 70x removed...
Sorry but thats not show-accurate at all. Unfortunately the show-lore has never had a successful pairing/offspring between human and elf. (Excepting Bronwyns son possibly, who may in fact be the first half elf, and even Aragorns ancestor if not the witch king.)
Im am aware that the written-lore is alittle different, but this is its own separate iteration. Inspired by, not duplicating Tolkiens written works.
I think already, the new lore has streamlined alot of the issues with dates and continuity in the written works. Which were so sporadic in details yet bloated in amounts.
Tho Galadriels new history/lore is undercut by her dialog and acting.
@@freebird6591 what? they mentioned 2 pairing in the show?
@@cwolfc exactly and the original trilogy specifically mentions Beren and Luthien's story as well as showing Arwen's son in vision. Don't know what he's talking about.
I saw someone on Reddit work out the more literal math and Elrond is 9/16ths Elf, 6/16ths Human, and 1/16th Maia.
I think that the maps not giving us an exact location is intended, because I suspect, that a lot of things take place in what becomes Mordor and they don't want to make that too apparent
You’re adding reason to poor writing. It was contrived for conflict. Does a good friend not tell his good friend or invite him to a wedding? If that were that alone, and the other conflict wasn’t so contrived, maybe. But yeah, no.
I thought of that myself.
Literally, when watching the episode, immediately after that line, I went, "Was he invited?" If Elrond was invited to a dwarven wedding and didn't go, then yeah, that is a good reason to be mad (and Elrond is stupid for not realizing that would cause a rift), if he wasn't invited, then why the heck would he show up? We don't know ANYTHING about dwarven weddings, except that dwarves are very private about their culture, and dwarven women are relatively few and don't generally mix with the outside world. Seems unlikely from that the a dwarf wedding would be an open invite occasion.
Not only are dwarves pretty long-lived (20 years to a dwarf should be more like 7 years to a human - long, sure, but I have friends I haven't seen in person in 7 years, and I wouldn't expect them to be mad if we had a chance to catch up), but this is a pre-industrial world. Distances are long, transportation and communication is slow. The instant and constant pace of staying in touch with people we expect in a modern world just doesn't apply here. Think about the dwarves maintaining their friendship with Bilbo or the Fellowship post the War of the Ring. Low contact for long spans broken up by joyful visits is to be expected, not decried.
@@StarryEyed0590 from the fact that they show up on foot with not mode of transportation or baggage, you’d have to guess the map is just like a neighborhood size. It was cheap and contrived, like most of the rest. And for some reason he didn’t get offered the rich princely food of…salt pork?
She already has a daughter in the lore along with a kindom and husband But Amazon decided to cut them from the story.
Or have yet to introduce them. Remember we are on episode 2 of X
@@joshyaash Considering what is in the first two episodes, they would have showed up if they were a part of the show.
@@joshyaash You're telling me not once when she was talking to her son-in-law that she asked him "oh so how's my daughter?" Not Once when she has been shifted off to literal paradise Did you think "hey what about my husband and kingdom? " That's almost worse than cutting them out of the story entirely.
@@bryanmcclure2220 What I meant was maybe they haven't started her relationship with Celeborn yet. Obviously it's not lore accurate, but you're watching the show the wrong way if you're expecting everything to be 100% faithful.
As usual?
Sauron took on a "fair" and "wise" appearance and traveled among the Elves under the name Annatar (The Lord of Gifts). He was accepted by the Elves of Eregion, but the Elves of Lindon (including Gil-Galad and Elrond) were suspicious of him and wouldn't let him onto their lands.
Big miss there Brandon. Saying Gandalf has to be here is like saying Frodo has to be here… because he ends up with the ring. Gandalf gets his ring from Cirdan the elf, when he and Saruman and the rest of the Istari come from the sea from the West long after Sauron is defeated and Isildur has taken and lost the one ring.
He said at the beginning he wasn't a Tolkien super fan. I forgive him.
They are falling for the JJ Abrams mystery box. Once it is opened we will find out there was nothing in the box to begin with.
Yall just copy and paste shit huh?
@@cwolfc na you must have me confused with the writers of the show
@@battsauce oh yes ur right... ur thoughts are so original and deep! thank you for these!
@@cwolfc your welcome
Just in terms of the timeline, the showrunners have stated that the timeline is condensed and we know Isildur, Elendil, and Pharazon who are BIG players in the last bit of the 2nd age are appearing in season 1 (likely episode 3). So sadly, my biggest fear of show is looking to come to fruition: they won't be aging up anyone a significant amount and we won't be seeing human characters dying of old age whilst the elves remain young between seasons.
There's a few reasons why I think they're doing this, one being because they want you to connect with the humans of Numenor before they destroy it. But the other reason, that I think is more they're reasoning, is the fact that this is the most expensive TV show every made, and Amazon wants to make sure the cast is the same every season to pull back in the audience members that might really like, say, Bronwyn or Theo or Isildur or __insert-human-here__.
So as much as I'd LOVE for them to deal with the timeline the way you both are describing (make Bronwyn old in season 2, make theo grow up and become a nazgul, make Galadrial and Celeborn have their daughter and by season 3 she's an adult elf who's already a few thousand years old so it's all good) I fear they won't be doing this and what is about 10,000 years in Tolkien's Second Age will be maaaybe 5 years in the show (corresponding with a season each year). I really hope they don't do this, but it's looking like this is what they will be doing.
The 2nd age is about 3,400 years, but I agree that the short timeframe in this series presents problems for some stories. The Numenorians for one, after the forging of the rings they are supposed to morally decline across the centuries to the point that under Pharazon and Sauron they begin practicing human sacrifice to Morgoth. But now the show has a sympathetic character ruling Numenor, raising the question if their society is as bad as it was in the book, whether they are going to flip from heroes to villains as soon as Pharazon usurps Miriel, or if they are a morally ambiguous faction out for themselves. And if they are sympathetic from the start, how are we supposed to feel when the inevitable happens?
There's like basically no point to 'adapting Tolkien' if you're not following the lore. Its no longer Tolkien. LoTR should not be thought if as a 'franchise' in this way. Let's face it , there are 1000s of fantasy stories, novels, etc that we have never seen on screen and woukd be great and could be faithful reinterpretation. Oh, I forgot- that would involve real work. There's no need to distort Tolkien for commerce, and the younger Tolkiens should be shot for letting Amazon have this.
Whenever anyone talks about review-bombing, all it really does is highlight the ten thousands, single sentence, 10/10s that are presumable left there by real human beings.
Though some maybe be to over compensate
A review with hate in its heart is more offensive to me than a review that doesn’t seriously consider quality. Many people think of liking and disliking their entertainment and a 10/10 is the most they care to think about something they enjoyed.
I had to stop at 7 minutes, oh my god... You guys are wrong about so many things this is crazy...
Brandon! You’d should know the elven ring-bearers during the Lord of the Rings, are not the original ring bearers. Gandalf should, lore-wise, not be in the show!
And the Hobbit-like creatures (Harfoots) actually did exist in the Second Age, they are mentioned in the prologue to the Lord of the Rings - Concerning Hobbits.
Pretty sure the Harfoots didn't show up until like 1000 years into the 3rd age but I could be wrong.
As far as I know, the history of Hobbits is fairly nebulous, to the point we're not 100% sure which race they branch off from. Even if they were first noted in the third age (I'm fairly certain they were noted in the second), I think there's enough wiggle room for them to make sense as portrayed in the show, especially with their tendencies towards keeping hidden.
Was Radagast in the Second Age, and if not would it be totally a terrible thing for him to be The Stranger, especially considering his eventual control of nature, and how close the Harfoots are to nature, and how comfortable they eventually are to having Gandalf being around when they settle the Shire.
Brandon was clear that he doesn't really know the lore. But yes the lack of both Dan and Brandon knowing any ring lore is driving me a bit crazy because it leads them down blind alleys. Gandalf should 100% not exist in this age. But he's Gandalf so they will certainly put him in.
Also Sauron appears to the elves in disguise...as an ELF! He wants them to trust him. He absolutely under no condition would appear as a man.
Was Galadriel not the only bearer of her ring? Gandalf and Elrond both received theirs from the previous owners, but she received her ring from Celebrimbor did she not?
Where to start? I've said this before but I just want what Tolkien wrote. I don't want modern showrunners, writers, corporate executives, producers, and stakeholders to be able to come up with 5 seasons of material people will discuss in the same breath as Tolkien's actual Legendarium just because a corporation had money. This isn't Tolkien. I don't care if they keep their own material "internally consistent" with what Tolkien wrote because he "technically never said [insert thing]". I think some people were confused when the public at large initially responded so adversely with only "a teaser trailer" etc. But the thing here is that the main problem isn't that "this could be good" (and what do you mean by that? That the story as an entity unto itself might be internally consistent and execute the theoretical and technical aspects of story telling well?) Some (arguably most) people respond so adversely because they disagree with the fundamental philosophy and approach of this show. This ISN'T Tolkien's original material. Tolkien's world is Tolkien's world; written and done already, and can't be franchised in the same way Marvel, Star Wars, Harry Potter (franchised into "The Wizarding World"), and even Star Trek, etc. have been. Who is Disa, Halbrand, Arondir, Bronwyn, Theo, Eleanor Brandyfoot, Adar, Sadoc Burrows, Poppy Proudfellow and more? Off the top of my head that's 9 original characters that are completely made up doing things that were never written. And then, whether you agree with it or not, existing characters get divisive interpretations. And other elements get divisive decisions. This is not Tolkien. Art is being reduced to "content" almost inevitably part of "franchises". With what we know already we know it's a far cry from Tolkien. I really do feel that in literature as a whole Tolkien's work stands as a towering monolith and casts a long shadow. In the appendicies for The Lord of the Rings films, Tolkien is credited as having the most read book of the 20th century after The Bible. His work could easily live on like the Eddas of the Norsemen or the works of Shakespeare. Yet, so young in their lifespan it is important that we make it known to corporations and modern "Sarumans" how the people would have these works handled. And, such a beacon as J.R.R. Tolkien is, he may well stand as a great line of defense for future artists whose work will be in a similar position. It would be a tragedy to have his works scrubbed and colored over like a palimpsest, conflating and confusing them with Amazon's upcoming original series. I have hated everyone's appropriation of Tolkien's "other minds and hands". Likely, other minds and hands" would be something more akin to the ways we have seen mythologies studied, translated, artistic renditions, and music compositions created. Eddaic stories, Arthurian Legends, you can see this in Tolkiens translations of Gawain and the Green Knight, Sigurd and Gudrun, The Fall of Arthur, and Beowulf. Certainly not a megacorporation franchising it for content, a wholly new set of stories that scrubs what Tolkien ACTUALLY wrote, even calling it The Lord of the Rings only making their title a sub-title. Furthermore, I find the work of fiction as an entity unto itself riddled with problems. As the narrative will progress, it is going to be necessary that they expound on some of the canons of Tolkien's work which they are relying upon and yet have changed and embellished with some seeming lack of foresight as it will leave them with conflicting and incoherent issues. Like it or not, Tolkien's work has a very tight-knit set of parameters that establish strict coherence and impressive verisimilitude (which was important to Tolkien.) Even if you are okay with liberties being taken I can't help but feel like they have done this carelessly, by which I mean, not considering the future implications and problems that will need to be addressed if you make these fundamental changes: i.e. How do you explain the complete erasure of Celeborn and Celebrian? And how do you leave the supposed driving force of your protagonist (Finrod) unnamed? How do you explain (and not explain) the relationship of Galadriel to Elrond (with no Celebrian)? And pehaps a pettier note, how do stones look down and ships look up? What's up with everyone's obsession with didactic allegorical metaphors? Bad ones at that. What's up with the select and reward based return-to-Valinor-system that Gil-Galad uses like a carrot to dangle? And I'm not a fan of their weirdly occult portrayal of some kind of entry-ritual into the Undying Lands? Why would Galadriel think it's such a good idea to jump ship and SWIM to Numenor and Middle-earth from the shores of Valinor!? It's just a mess.
100%. Most of the people against the show are not saying someone can't enjoy it, hell it's damn near beautiful and could have easily been a unique NEW fantasy world or something created by Amazon. (obv that would never happen because $$). But it just feels absolutely nothing like Tolkein's work so far.
The only things that are truly Tolkien are the books themselves. They still exist and will always exist. Some people might gain a new appreciation for the works from the visual adaptation, but that doesn't detract from the original works any more than the Mario Brothers movie detracted from the games lol. I still remember how much some Tolkien fans hated on the Peter Jackson films.
@@napilopez I enjoy the trillogy films, but why shouldn't fans be allowed to have criticisms of them. They arn't making something based on Tolkien's work, they are making Tolkien's work in another medium. It should be seen as a HUGE responsibility and appreciation of that very work, like Peter Jackson himself treated it.
@@napilopez I know it's a VERY long comment I've left but I've addressed a lot of the concerns I had about the effects of Amazon's project on the cultural consciousness and indeed, just *awareness* of Tolkien's original material within his legendarium. And of course only Tolkien will ever be TOLKIEN. I'm not anti-adaptation, or even a "purist" in the oversimplified and (currently) weaponized sense. While the lines may be blurry when we get into the nitty gritty aspects of what would then be expected to be "permissible" within adaptation, Amazon has definitively crossed the line and is nowhere near that blurred threshold in my eyes, seeing as this isn't even an adaptation but rather a wholly new set of stories within a pre-established framework produced by both, large, modern creative and corporate teams long after the death of the author.
100% agreed. I want the story Tolkien wrote not some random showrunners that think they can write the novel Tolkien never wrote. But if you criticise the show you get called a troll and all the different 'ist' words even though you never mentioned any of that.
They mention how the show was review bombed and that people were just attacking it. Most of the show was them talking about what they didn't like or how the show doesn't follow the lore.
Well they were critiquing it, and they did mention things that they liked which the show did.
It’s natural to focus on the things that stood out which didn’t work for you.
I personally have the complete opposite take from Brandon and Dan this time around. I liked episode one but disliked episode two because I felt it didn’t advance the plot significantly.
Dan disliked the boat scene but I thought it was a highlight of the first episode.
I otherwise agree with Brandon’s take on Galadriel 100% though. The sea monster felt very forced into the story. In fact I bet he’s right and they put it in because they felt like they needed action. Otherwise you just have an escort ship for her to swim too instead. (Which you could then have be attacked so idk why they went the castaway route)
"I loved it"
"I kind of liked it"
Having an opinion and fair criticism of a thing, does not mean you have to act like a baby and cry about it. You can like something while acknowledging issues.
@@NemisisRecords agree with you. I’ve gotten some nasty comments from people on Reddit and elsewhere because I didn’t hate the show. I have criticisms but overall I like it and think it’s slightly above average.
Right now the setting, music, and stunning visuals are propping it up for me. BUT episode three needs to really deliver some traction on the actual story IMO
@@NemisisRecords I was just pointing out that maybe the show was not being review bombed. Brandon and Dan both enjoyed the show but still had or recognized there were issues with it. Maybe the negatives or potential negatives brandon and Dan talk about is enough to ruin the show for others. Not following the lore being a good example of something they didn't take much of an issue with but could easily ruin the show for someone else.
Quick comment:
The original holder of the Ring of Fire (Narya) was Gil-Galad. After he died in a fight with Elendil against Sauron the ring was given to Cirdan the Shipwright, who kept it until Gandalf arrived in Middle Earth in the 3rd Age
The reason for why people are angry that it might be Gandalf is because *none* of the Istari (the wizards) came during the Second Age (except, maybe, a pair of Wizards who went to the East)
If you guys haven't, CHECK OUT THIS GUY'S CHANNEL! He does an amazing job addressing and articulating things that are so insightful and that are VITAL parts of understanding the works of Tolkien and the broader frameworks surrounding critical thinking and critique in a way no one else is!
I hope it’s a Blue Wizard who goes east.
Gil Galad’s ring went to Elrond. I’m pretty sure it was also the ring of water. The ring of fire went to Cirdan the shipwright, who gave it to Gandalf when Gandalf arrived in Middle-Earth
Gil-Galad held the Ring of Water and gave it to Elrond before the Battle of the Last Alliance in case something happened to him(and it did). The original holder of the Ring of Fire was Cirdan the Shipwright.
When Gil-Galad fell at the end of the second age his transferred to Elrond. Cirdan gave his to Gandalf who he felt was the appropriate bearer
If they wanted to do a mostly original show, they should have done something about the Blue Wizards and the Easterlings…Empire of the Ruhn Sea
and it will get no views
I would watch that, but it wouldn't be popular. The fans would froth at the mouth and call it "fanfiction" anyway.
@@TheSuperRatt as if this isn't fanfiction already
What's killing me about this show so far is how it seems like they're going to compress the second age. This thing with Galadriel rejecting Valinor is supposed to come at the beginning of the second age and then like 3500 years later is when Numenor falls, Elendil founds Arnor/Gondor, Miriel & Pharazon exist. But all of those characters are cast so apparently we're going to see the fall of Numenor soon? And there's been zero mention of Celeborn and Celebrian which come about in the second age. I don't get it.
I believe they confirmed Celeborn for season 2
I have faith that they will manage it well. Didn't they say it is going to have five seasons? With five seasons they could devide the second age into good chunks. It also shows how elves experience time lul whatever... I am a hardcore fan of Tolkiens universe and i want to enjoy this series. All the minor issues some have with people of color or beardless dwarves (wifes)... Who fucking cares? Its about the overall story, how its narrated and if they manage to make the characters believable and interesting. I care about the general order of events but if they find a good way to switch it up, leading to a great series, i am fine with it.
In the end this series is just an adaptation. Its not like the origin is spoiled in any way. If i want to talk about lore and stuff i will always take the books.
She's actually already married to Celeborn in the Silmarillion in the first age before the fall of Morgoth.
They said from the outset that they would have to significantly compress the timeline because it’s hard to produce, and hard for an audience to follow, a show with a constant churn in the cast from generations of humans.
They don't have rights to The Silmarillion, I believe. So they're very constrained and in my view should have not tried this at all.
Isn't Elrond only Half-Elven and he and his brothers had to choose whether to be men or elves?
Yes
He had a twin brother Elros who founded the kingdom of Numenor after he chose to live life as a mortal man, albeit with long life. Numenor is the line that Elendil, Isildur and eventually Aragorn come from
@@TheDesertSpear Just here to upvote The Truth ^ (What he said)
"Galadriel is a terrible leader"
I mean, she is a member of the Noldor royal family, that fits.
Are there any major productions that Sanderson and Wells say they don't like? It feels hard to get a read on what their genuine opinions are, so it would be interesting to have a litmus test.
In this very episode they start by both saying they loved it, then accurately detail some pretty major flaws in the show. It could be that they enjoy the show despite the flaws, or that due to their positions they are unable to voice any dissent.
I also listened to some other media critics and there are a lot of valid concerns about the quality of the dialogue/writing, the world building, and a host of other things. People value different parts of the show in their own ways of course
I don't think they'd say much publicly about it if they didn't like it. There are plenty of shows that they say they dislike, but they mention it briefly and drop it. Not really their style to bash on something.
I know Brandon has openly bashed some Disney Star Wars stuff in his lectures so there's that. From memory it might've been in his lecture on promise-breaking with The Last Jedi as an example? Not sure.
It is possible to rationaly acknowledge a flaw in something and still enjoy it. Liking something is a "feeling" that can be informed by rationality but is not obligated to it.
Oof, RoP is so baaad it is painful. A slap in the face to Tolkein and his legacy.
Yes dude, I was really surprised that Sandon liked it XD
Galadriel is banished from valinor because of the path of faenor. She can't go back and Gil galad has no authority to send her back
A theory I've seen thrown around that I like is that Halbrand is Bronwyn's ex husband.
If that turns out to be the case, that opens up the door for Halbrand to be the witch king instead of the kid, likely resulting from his kid's eventual death. Following that, it also allows for the two parents to have two different ways of dealing with the loss with Halbrand turning evil and Bronwyn either ending up with Arondir or a bittersweet moving on type of resolution.
What I dislike about this storyline is it leaves open the opportunity for a love triangle and I don't think I can recall a love triangle I enjoyed.
What I like about it is that it means Halbrand is not Sauron, I don't know why I don't like Halbrand as Sauron but I don't.
Yes!!!! On the Galadriel criticism. Too many shows especially when writing the “other” is they are right even when every thing they do is wrong. If she is not on a character arch of considering other people and proving she needs to be listened to
It all depends on whether the takeaway is "See! You should have listened to me!" or "You could have gotten everybody on board in time, and you didn't."
@@nathanhall9345 it could also be: your zealousnes helped grow the evil you wanted to destroy
I predict that Mr Shad Brooks will not be brought on as a consultant for stormlight 5 the way he was for 4.
Unfortunately brandon seems to like what amazon has been doing...
I hope that's not the case.
@@KyleOfTheNorth As do i
Galadriel criticism is spot on.... In so many Games, Books and Movies, traits like this is often scene today. This is a similar point I have had with most of the New Star Wars Content.
Elrond looks like a young Quentin Tarantino and now I can't unsee it
i wish you hadnt pointed this out because now thats all i can see as well :D
He reminded me of Neil Patrick Harris. Maybe if you mix the two together you get Elrond?
@@jhhardage you are so right!
Have they talked about House of the Dragon? I think it's off to an insanely strong start
I know Brandon doesn’t really care for grim dark aesthetically, so wouldn’t surprise me if he’s not watching.
@@danhogan1963 but dragons
@@danhogan1963 People say that ASOIAF is grimdark, but it really isn't. In Westeros there is darkness and evil people, but there is also good and idealism and heroism.
The First Law by Joe Abercrombie is grimdark. SPOILERS AHEAD! Every main character, Bayaz, Jezal, Logen - they're all huge pieces of shit. Bayaz wins in the end, and Logen ends the series the same way he started, in sort of a thematic way. Abercrombie is someone who doesn't believe people can change and his world is reflective of that. Almost every character is horrible in some way or another. The morally best character in the universe as a whole is some random dude on another continent who saves his church or whatever and then gets killed. RIP.
In comparison, ASOIAF has some thematic elements that are very NOT grimdark. For example, we are led to believe that of the two main patriarchs of the series, Tywin Lannister and Ned Stark, that Tywin's legacy wins out after Ned and Robb die. But we see that Ned's honor and integrity, that got him killed and everyone saw him as stupid, perseveres long after his death, while Tywin's legacy crumbles the moment he dies. His son that was most similar to him kills him, his other son is trying to distance himself from the other Lannisters and be a heroic knight like he always wanted, Cersei is batshit insane and the Lannisters power is crumbling.
Conversely, Ned, who taught his children compassion and honor, has inspired the North to fight back against the Boltons. His legacy persists long after his death because of the loyalty he garnered in his bannermen. And if you remember a Dance with Dragons, you know about Wull's speech about fighting for "the Ned's little girl" or the Manderly's "the North Remembers".
Besides this major theme, you also have characters like Brienne, who just after telling the Lord of the Saltpans that he should have rode to his death, if it meant defending the innocent, finds herself seeing a teenage girl about to be raped and murdered by seven men. In a grimdark piece, after her bold statements, she would have abandoned her ideals and/or died a gruesome death, but Brienne thinks "she had no chance against seven, no chance and no choice". And she lives! She inspires people to come and help her. She gets a very nasty scar, because the world is still brutal, but she and the children live.
GRRM at heart is a very romantic writer, literally. The winter roses (blue flower) symbolism that are so central to ASOIAF are the same symbol as the blue flowers of the romanticism movement. Whereas Grimdark is very cynical or nihilistic. They are very much different in themes and lessons.
@@Xob_Driesestig I'm just going off of what Brandon has said about Martin's work in the past. He frequently calls it grimdark and cited Dany's story (her forced marriage to Drogo, etc.) as turning him off to the series. He respects George, but it's not his taste. Personally I enjoy Martin's work AND Tolkien's AND Brandon's.
@@Xob_Driesestig I'm by no means an expert on "grimdark", but house of the dragon sure feels a whole lot more grim and dark than the original series, and given the first episode, that's exactly the tone they're trying to lean into.
It would kind of annoy me (but i'd get over it) if they made Meteorite Man Sauron because Sauron had no idea what hobbits are--that's why it took the 9 black riders so long to find Frodo & the Shire.
Also, you'd expect Sauron to be spending time in the politics of Middle Earth, not tricking unimportant hobbits to trust him. That won't help him gather armies or make the rings.
I'd also assume that the Stranger was sent (or exiled) from Valinar, and they've implied Sauron has never left Middle Earth since arriving there. Sauron wouldn't meteor himself and it seems irresponsible for the Valar to ship off a lesser evil god to Middle Earth.
Similar issue with Saruman as the Stranger: Saruman has very little interest in the weak, even when he was good. He didn't hate them, but he didn't consider them useful in the struggle against evil. Having ties to Hobbits kind of undermines a significant part of his character.
The stranger could be Gandalf, or one of the blue wizards. It would be cool to see the blue wizards try and go toe to toe with Sauron and fail because that would showcase why Gandalf is so afraid of him. The fact that he's using stars is interesting since Varda is the Valar of the stars, she made them, and she chose Gandalf to go to Middle Earth.
I really like how I'm getting two significantly different perspectives here with no acrimony.
I will ride to join these discussions at first light.
The Blue Wizards come to middle earth well before the others in 1600 of the Second Age (approx now); the other 3 Wizards come after Sauron has the ring chopped off his hands. If it's a Wizard, it must be one of blue wizards. According to Tolkien, they played an important role in the East and South -- the direction of Meteor man's constellation he makes with the fireflies.
It sounds like you’re framing the show how you want to view it, not how it was done.
I was solidly whelmed by it. It's a show. It exists. The dwarf part was pretty great, the rest of the show was not terrible but eh. The dwarf part was definitely pretty great.
I was absolutely overwhelmed by the stunning images of this show. But i guess most people don't care much for that.
@@MaikKellerhals all the pretty imagery in the world can't save a poorly written story. A billion dollars and they could only hire mediocre writers.
@@MaikKellerhals everyone recognizes how a high budget raises the esthetic side of a show like this, but money cannot buy intelligence for the writers to make the prose at the same level... The images can be astonishing, but do they have meaning?
@@jessip8654 They didn't hire writers, they hired political activists, just like like a lot of other tv shows nowadays.
Love this! Please do more as the show goes on!
Getting my hare-brained theory out there: the Stranger is Tom Bombadil. He *also* had some dealings with Hobbits near the Shire and the Harfoots are the first population of Hobbits to travel into the area. He's looking for "his country" where the stars are right and where his power might stop killing fireflies or whatever and that's why, by the time of LotR, he refuses to leave the boundaries he's set for himself. Sure, this ignores the whole "Eldest and Fatherless" thing, but the show already doesn't care about the timeline so I'm ignoring that for my purposes.
I'd say he's as likely to be Bombadil as he is to be Eru, due to how disrespectful to Tolkien's world it would be.
Bombadil was in ME before the first acorn, but yeah who knows what kind of artistic license they're taking. The wizards aren't supposed to come to ME until 1000 of the Third Age, and I don't think Sauron travels by meteor, especially one that came from the West no less. My best guess is that they are creating a second age wizard whose task or fate lies in the timeframe of this show.
I think I’d be more upset than if it were Gandalf if it was Tom bombadil. He is older than all of this, he’ll he might be older than the world according to bombadil himself. So if the stranger is bombadil, they’ve upended literally everything beyond rights issues
It's and interesting theory but The Stranger seems quite a bit darker than Bombadil not to mention his biggest claim to fame is he predated the Valar and a sentient manifestation of the planet itself. At first when I was watching the episodes I was think they were going to try to give Radagast an interesting origin but I'm slowly edging over to the Saruman camp, though I wouldn't put it past Prime to create another Maia, sent to pave the way for the five Istari to come later.
I’ve thought of this before but I’m on serious hopium
I was getting a little worried at first in this video that such great writers would "like" Rings of Power when it is the writing more than anything that is the problem with that show. I completely understand anyone who is a nerd and just loves to see Middle Earth again but doesn't really know the lore giving a lot of things a pass. But writers of your caliber certainly can notice how just...bad the dialogue and character development is, not to mention how all over the place the plot is. Even when you start to like a character, they just jerk you over somewhere else. It's clunky.
And as you talked it out, I got the hint that you did see that, but you're being diplomatic and hopeful which is cool. I have little faith in this show, but I'll agree that you've gotta give it a full season to really judge it. You don't review a book based on the first couple of chapters. I can think of one of yours Brandon that started out a little "meh" but then turned into one of the best books I've ever read.
I could "school" you both on the lore and how bizarre it would be for either Gandalf or Saruman to show up in this time period (like George Washington showing up to help Julius Caesar conquer Gaul), but it looks like a LOT of folks in the comments have already cleared all of that up pretty well lol.
I will make mention of the Harfoots and some of them being black. The problem isn't that there are "black hobbits". The problem is they aren't ALL black. Or ALL white. Or ALL brown. It's a small community, and everyone is going to be at least distantly related. For some reason, shows these days keep trying to shoehorn the modern (Western) reality of mixed race societies into fantasy or period-based shows/movies. It makes no sense. Until relatively recently in human history (with Rome and Persia being sort of exceptions), any place you go in a world prior to an age of global travel and post-colonialism, all of the people in one place will look much alike.
It's just genetics and the realities of travel and kinda limited gene pools in a region. I'd be fine with everyone among the Harfoots being dark skinned. The mixing of appearance makes no sense. That was one of the problems with the Two Rivers folks in the Wheel of Time show. These people had intermixed for centuries...yet somehow have such varying complexions?
Everyone knows why they are doing it. Forcing in "diversity" just to virtue signal. It's dumb. You want black dwarves or black hobbits or asian elves? Cool. Show an entire community of them. The multicultural/multiracial thing makes no sense in these worlds and stories.
If it bothers you so much, if it's something you simply can't get over, then the problem lies with you, tbh. It says more about you than the show that you just can't suspend your own disbelief. Is this really the hill you folks want to die on? This isn't being pushed as the most "historically accurate" show. It's fantasy. In the original media, the elves lived right next to the two trees and never developed any melanin despite being constantly inundated in light! But you'll argue that the light is "magic" and therefore won't befoul their skin with darkness. And yet you can't extend that same courtesy to racial mixing.
@@TheSuperRatt Nobody is trying to die on some hill, and no, this doesn't "bother me that much". I'm just giving my opinion on the show. Take it or leave it.
It's really hard to take what you said seriously when you say "it's not historically accurate because it's fantasy", when the show itself doesn't even stick to the basic lore of the fantasy.
Of course I have the ability to suspend disbelief. But there's a fine line in that. I can suspend disbelief when it is something that works to move the story along, or is at least entertaining. When instead it's just some half-assed attempt at virtue signaling, well I don't really feel compelled to suspend disbelief.
The problem here is that the show is kinda garbage. The writers are inexperienced and are doing a poor job so far, and they're just tossing in all of this stuff because they think it will protect them from criticism.
That's how they do things these days. They're incompetent, and instead of owning up to it and trying to make a good-faith attempt at creating something cool, they just cover up their own ineptitude by claiming everyone criticizing it is a bad person. It's bizarre.
Also bizarre is your argument about elves and melanin. Elves are a different species than human. Nobody knows how light effects elves and their biology, and nobody knows what manner of light came from the Two Trees, because Tolkien didn't explain it. He felt no need to explain it, and nobody asked.
You got three camps here. Two of them are political. One of those will defend this completely because they believe in Woke™ and think defending trash somehow helps their cause. The other political camp sees the Woke™ defending it and automatically thinks they have to attack it.
The third camp is the rest of us, who love Tolkien and think y'all are dumb. We just don't want to see a beautiful world trashed with your political wars. You do it enough in the real world.
@@TheSuperRatt you seem more bothered by him having an opinion than he is by the show
Dan is completely wrong about Harfoots being black. He sneakily omitted the rest of Tolkien's description of the Harfoots, namely that they were "red-cheeked", "bright-eyed" and most commonly brown-haired. Also, Tolkien never wrote that they were "much" browner of skin, just browner.
@@lastunicorn846 Dan's just saying what he thinks is the "right answer", like most people these days. They're both smarter than that. They know what's up. Certain people trying to foist their new-found religion on all of us. And if you aren't with them, you're a heretic to be burned at the stake. Or cancelled or whatever.
Visuals was great. The rest, not so much.
Just love so much your discussions :) great episode!
I have genuinely no interest in watching a show made as a desperate cash grab by Amazon in the steaming wars, constrained in what it can include by the small amount of material they were arbitrarily able to buy corporate rights to. None of that seems conducive to creating something at all in the spirit of the books. The controversy of it is interesting in and of itself, though.
Edit/addition: Tolkien isn't something that's okay if it's just "okay" - it's not a piece of pop culture or intellectual property that you can indefinitely expand and mess around with to mixed results, like Marvel's cinematic universe of their old comic books. Tolkien's works are based on high-level scholarship, and they are the way they are because of mostly erudite and complexly literate influences. That's not something you can replicate by corporate fiat to please a mass market
This!
16:50 For anyone who wants a Lore answer on Gandalf, - Gandalf doesn't arrive into well into the Third Age. Cirdan (at the Grey Havens) has the rings Narya and gives it to him.
28:00 Celeborn doesn't have a Ring.
I don't really care anymore if my theory that Halbrand is Sauron is right. I'm just pleased that that is where Sanderson's mind went first.
Sauron is most likely disguised as an elf at this point in time, pulling the strings of Celebrembor (sorry for the spelling). Gandalf showing up now would be really early, but would be understandable for the people watching the show. He received his ring from an elf later on btw.
But She wasn't right. She was obsessed with going North. She learns that Sauron's reappeared in the South. She learns at the end of episode 2 that she's been on the wrong track all along.
She was obsessed with going north because that was the last fortress of Morgoth that the elves hadn't investigated. I don't want to spoil episode 3, but we do learn that she wasn't on entirely the wrong track, she just misunderstood something.
Great memory!
From what I've read, Gandalf received his ring (Narya) from Cirdan the Shipwright in the Third Age. Tolien himself seemed uncertain on when the Wizards arrived in Middle-Earth. In the Unfinished Tales they arrived in the year 1000 of the Third Age. OTOH, in the Peoples of Middle-Earth, they arrived in the Second Age.
He squared that circle eventually. The Blue Wizards arrived in the second age to fight Sauron (just the Blue Wizards), left after their task was complete, and then returned again in the Second Age and were followed sometime later by Gandalf, Sauramon, and Rataghast.
A lot of the negative comments on Rotten Tomatoes describe their unhappiness about the plot, production quality, dialogue structure and pacing. I cannot see any review bombing in them. However, I see many 5-star reviews that look like someone paid them. No reference to the show, just everything is fantastic. I don't have prime thus I might be only able to watch it in several years somewhere on TV.
Anyone know which history of lord of the rings video Brandon mentioned?
"What are they going to do with Theo?"
Me: You mean the half elf kid with the weird sword?
I absolutly love these podcasts. It's so intressting to hear an author's opinions, especially when it comes from one I admire as much as you.
Now you have to do House of the Dragon next :D!!!
Does anyone have the link to the videos Brandon kept referencing?
When it was "review bombed" it hovered at a 36% customer rating. It is now sitting at a 39% and has been reviewable for a while now. That is not much "sway" in the numbers, so I don't think there is as much "review bombing" as Amazon would like to suggest. Its just a weakly written show, that looks nice. The source material is like a recipe for success and they just ignored a lot of key elements. It is too bad.
The ring Gandalf wore was originally worn by Círdan the Shipwright, an elf. There’s so much more I could write about why I don’t like what’s happening in this show so far, but it mostly boils down to the fact that they ignored all of the available lore, wrote their own story and slapped the Lord of the Rings name on it to make money.
THIS.
Gandalf doesn’t show up as Gandalf until the Third Age in the lore. He wasn’t the original holder of his ring, Narya. It was given to him by Gil-Galad’s lieutenant in the Third Age. So I don’t think the Stranger is Gandalf. I’m not sure he will show up in the series. I do think it is an Istari though. Maybe one of the Blue Wizards that came earlier than the others, shortly before the Rings of Power were created. Plus, so little is known about the Blue Wizards, so the writers have a lot of room for character development with them.
@@sionat29 Good points. The Maura that is Gandalf was around a lot longer, but as Gandalf as we know him- not until the Third Age. Thanks for the clarification.
Watching this after I finished Rings of Power and am impressed with the number of accurate guesses Brandon had right from the jump.
The strangers fire didn’t burn and Galadriel stated at the start of episode one that The elf’s torches did not give off heat because there was too much evil there
Two thoughts:
It wouldn't be strange for Calembrimbor (or however it's spelled) to use that metaphor, as they are talking about dwarves, who they have witnessed age and care for their aging parents over generations. If anything, it highlights the contrasts their people have more.
Also: The more i think about it, the more Galadriel (who is awesome and cool) feels brutal and unreasonable in retrospect. Certainly the second-in-command guy is depicted as petulant and insolent in his direction and casting, but i think any of us would agree that these elves who defected are in the right if they were, say instead, workers in a factory with unsafe conditions, or soldiers defying a commander's corrupt order in the modern age. Gives dogmatic and single-minded Galadriel a bit more conflicted spot in my reckoning in the story.
I'm still annoyef they had the gall to put lotr before " the rings of power" as it most definately was not based on tolkien's bits and pieces of the 2nd age, but more so based on bullshit they made up. Atleast they got the names right.
That's my main issue. If they had just made their own original show nobody would care. But because they have taken Tolkien's work and changed it so much that the lore is basically just Easter eggs, and then a lot of those are wrong too, that is the issue. They could have adapted it properly but they thought they could write the novel Tolkien never wrote. Also, they mentioned review bombing. All the people I know and seen online have legitimate issues with the show which aren't race related. That isn't review bombing. And no one mentions the review inflation going on 🤷♀️
The Istari don't come to middle earth until the third age. They're sent to middle earth explicitly to deal with the threat of Sauron.
Gandalf isn't the original holder of the ring, it's entrusted to him by the original barrer, who's name i don't remember.
Does anyone have the link to the youtube video that Brandon keeps referencing? I'd love to watch it myself.
I have a far more tragic idea of the stranger in the boat with Galadriel. He might become the Witchking of Angmar.
Halbrand is Sauron. That's been known for a while now. Of course he is. He's white, masculine and competent. How could he possibly not be evil.
@@SugerSprinkledFun Of course it could be Sauron, he is a crafty one to say the least and totally capable of playing a complicated the long game. I simply like my idea more because then it is more tragic, a good friend seduced by power turning to evil.^^
EDIT: in the end, we are all guessing until it is revealed. Just thinking about what it could is simply part of the fun I am having with the show. Other than that, I do not take it too seriously and have fun with everybody :)
Ohhh, I really like the idea. He is a noble for a fallen kingdom so it fits and its poetic as well. I’m going with this from now on.
@@MatiasBenavides Of course he could turn out to be a nobody that works as a Watson for Galadriel's Sherlock with the added bonus that he could sacrifice himself heroically for his new friend. Otherwise Galadriel would walk around Middlearth alone for quite a while without someone to vocalize her thoughts with, all for the benefit of the audience naturally^^
@@TodayLifeIsGoood Which kinda makes sense, but it would be a waste to be just a guy. Unless it’s killed next episode.
Trolls? Pffft. Most of those are real tolkien purists just being honest.
I don't love Rings of Power but it does intrigue me. The passage of time is something that is really awkward since it would probably take weeks for Galadriel to arrive in Lindon and at least one week for Elrond to arrive in Moria, all the while Nori's story only feels like it has taken 2 days, maybe 3. It really doesn't show that at all. Also, with the elf and woman, they were maybe a mile away from the town and it was midday, and then when they arrived it was night time.
Can anyone tell me if I can read the whole series of Mistborn alone? Or do I have to read a book from another series to understand?
This is strange, two great writers are talking about something so badly written and somehow don’t mind it at all.
I’ve watched Brandon's lectures on writing and a lot of:
1. “Show don’t tell”
2. Build a believable world and magic system with rules, and don’t break them.
3. The Plot should manifest a promise to the reader and deliver on it even in subversion.
All of that I felt is subpar in that show - even actually very bad… I Don't know, the obvious answer is that I am simply missing something - the skies are strange I guess.
Elves are nothing more than arrogant humans - equal in mind and stature. No grace, no wisdom built through milenia of long life, no ethereal otherworldly glow of angelic beings... just humans with funky ears.
Galadriel, a character that binds the beginning of time with the end of magic and wonder in middle-earth. A woman with great power, presence and wisdom... now is a just an angry bit** that throws a fit an jumps in the middle of the ocean - because that's not reta**ed at all.
Finrod's "stones are different then ships" nonesens is a perfect example of how talentless the writers are. It is ridiculous and cringe. I feel sorry for the actor.
Everybody is fasttraveling like in a video game… my "suspension of disbelief" is constantly struggling.
Am I the only one that kind of hates it?
The show is bad, lots of people are with you.
Elves aren’t just humans with pointy ears lmao
They’re connected to the earth more because they’re bound to it. Their ability to use magic and being able to sense things is part of it. They won’t ever leave Arda until the second Ainulindalë.
You’re confused because you’re not seeing what everyone else is seeing.
You are most definitely not alone... in fact, we are the majority! Finally the fans are standing up against this evil talentles hacks and corporations who ruin these amazing stories.
I really like Brandon as a writer and his books... in fact I love Mistborn and Stormlight Archive... but every time I watch these podcasts I wonder.... is this really the same person... don't get me wrong... its absolutely ok for someone to have a different opinion... but for someone with such a high talent for writing and teaching... I would expect him to hate Wheel of Time, Witcher, etc etc and now Rings of Power shows.... cuz they all are absolute butchering of source material combined with shitty productions, writing and casting.
Like idk... is he afraid to say anything bad cuz he wants to get an adaptation with Hollywood or what
@@Mrbluefire95 i think you both are on the same page... he was being sarcastic I think.
@@KristjanK_ I would not expect him to hate them, but I would certainly expect him to be critical and expose them as a writer.
I like the craft of storytelling and it would be extremely valuable we hear his honest critique without a filter.
It seems to me that in all the adaptations you mention, there is obvious lazy writing and mistakes, things that a layman like me would notice and be annoyed with, yet Brandon doesn't seem to mind.
Brandon’s brother is incorrect about the Hobbits, specifically Harfoots. They’ve exist since the end of the first age, they just didn’t have the name Hobbit. This is supported by the prologue to LoTR “Concerning Hobbits”
No, rather, it is contradicted by the prologue "concerning hobbits," wherein it describes harfoots as a distinct type of hobbits. All harfoots are hobbits not all hobbits are harfoots.
@@kenkeller6072 Sure, there were three different types of Hobbits such as Harfoots, Stoors, and Fallohides, but I don’t see how that contradicts what I said? Harfoots have existed since the elder days and lived in secret, as did the other two, but so far we’re only getting the Harfoots in the show, which is why I only mentioned them.
@@danielmaldonado1185 I think it's disingenuous to pretend that Harfoots themselves necessarily existed in the elder days, and the text certainly doesn't say that (not first age). The fact is we don't know when the hobbits started to distinguish themselves into subsets of peoples.
I think the show is being disingenous with us calling them harfoots INSTEAD of hobbits. Ahem, Frodo and Bilbo are both Fallowhides, but they identify as Hobbits, and think of the term fallowhide as simply as one does their family name.
A harfoot, so to speak, would call himself a hobbit. So I suppose my beef is more with your seeming acceptance of the show's failure to adhere to the lore of the legedarium. It seems like you're team Amazon, well I'm team Tolkien.
@@kenkeller6072 To be clear: fuck Amazon as a company. I’m not on any teams, simply stating the facts and that Tolkien “fans” like yourself go so overboard on hating any adaptation that they start looking for inconsistencies where sometimes there are none. The Elder Days in the Legendarium is in fact near the end of the first age. It doesn’t make sense how showing the Harfoots of the 2nd age, which Tolkien says existed in the prologue if you actually read it, on screen is disingenuous. If anything Tolkien hardcores are being anti-lore by not accepting the facts that the show so far is adhering to the lore as is.
@@danielmaldonado1185 Also, you said, "...Harfoots. They’ve exist since the end of the first age, they just didn’t have the name Hobbit."
This is how the words in concerning hobbits openly contradict you.
After I called you out you then said, "Sure, there were three different types of Hobbits such as Harfoots." You acknowledge they are hobbits, but that somehow they were Harfoots BEFORE they were hobbits. How do you get that.
You're talking right out your ass.
The original bearers of the Elven Rings were Cirdan the shipwright, Gil-galad, and Galadriel. Gandalf came by boat in the Third Age and received his ring from Cirdan when he arrived
Dan is completely wrong about the Harfoots being black. I don't know if he's blatantly lying or just ignorant. Firstly, Tolkien never said they were "much" browner of skin, just browner. Secondly, Tolkien described them further as "red-cheeked" and "bright-eyed", and most commonly having curly brown hair. Why does Dan conveniently omit the rest of the description? Whatever Tolkien meant by "browner of skin", it wasn't black people.
Skin colour is really a triviality here though.
I'm definitely a super mega fan of Tolkien, and I mostly did not like it. But really not out of purism - it's totally fine to adapt things to TV and compress things and change stuff around. Where they really get to improvise totally, like with the halflings, it's quite fun! But I think the characterisation and plot are just not very good in themselves, have little direction or intrinsic interest, and the depiction of the setting has too many bits where it's not sufficiently Tolkien but also not sufficiently not Tolkien. I do think the visuals continue to be amazing, though.
It's not an adaptation, it's fan fiction.
Can we get a link to the video Brandon mentioned he watched to get backstory info?
first time watching this podcast! loved it!
Here is your lore rundown (I'm sure someone has said at least some of this, but I'm a super fan, so...) Also my intention is not to gripe about changes, but merely to point out the details since the guys were talking about them.
They have already butchered the timeline. They made clear during development that they were going to compress events so that they could use the same human characters throughout, even though the events they are depicting in the original lore took place at times separated by thousands of years.
So, for example, Galadriel and Celeborn should already have been married for thousands of years at this point. They met during the first age, before the downfall of Morgoth. In fact, contrary to the way the show is doing it, Galadriel and Celeborn left Beleriand and moved east before the war of wrath, so she would not actually have been present for most of the stuff she "has seen". By this point, she and Celeborn would already have established their realm in Lothlorien.
Tar Miriel, the queen of Numenor who is in the show would have lived about 1500 years after the rings of power were forged, and she was contemporary with Elendil, so I expect Elendil will also be in the show.
Also, at this time (before the forging of the rings) the world had not yet been changed from the original flat world to a round world. This occurred at the downfall of Numenor, when Ar Pharazon tried to invade Valinor. So at this time, Valinor was not removed from the world, or in another dimension etc. It could be reached simply by sailing west, and would be visible as any other land. In fact, it possible to see Valinor (or rather the coastal island Tol Eressea) from Numenor on a clear sunny day.
(At this point I agree with Dan about the scene of the elven ship approaching Valinor, I hated the way it was depicted. I would much rather have seen the land itself in the distance. It would have been cooler in every respect, in my opinion).
The elves learned the art of making rings of power from Sauron. He came among them in disguise and taught them. The rings were originally all made for elves as the guys said. Sauron's intent was to use them to control the elves, because he considered the elves to be his biggest threat. The three elven rings were special because Celebrimbor made them in secret without Sauron's aid or involvement. As such they were not tainted and had none of his evil in them.
Celebrimbor gave the three rings to Cirdan the Shipwright, Gil Galad, and Galadriel. Cirdan later gave his ring to Gandalf, when Gandalf arrived by ship from Valinor. Cirdan was the lord of the havens (the port) and thus he was the first to meet Gandalf, and he knew who Gandalf was. Gil Galad gave his to Elrond before the final campaign of the Last Alliance.
The Rhyme of the rings became a thing when Sauron forged the One Ring in order to trap the elves who had all the other rings. When he forged it and put it on his finger he spoke the words "One ring to rule them all..." and because of the mental link between the rings, Celebrimbor and the elves heard him in their minds and they understood what was happening so they all took off their rings immediately.
This thwarted Sauron's plan. So he changed the plan and he waged war on the elves to recover the rings of power. After he had recovered all but the three, he then gifted the others to dwarves and men to do what he originally intended to do with the elves. The dwarves, however, couldn't be bent to his will, so it only really worked with the humans.
The Wizards -
The 5 Wizards did not arrive in Middle Earth until the Third Age, about 2500 years after the time that the show is taking place. The first to arrive were the blue wizards. I don't remember if we are ever told how they arrived.
We are told that Gandalf arrived by ship at the port of the Grey Havens, (Mithlond) which was governed by Cirdan the Shipwright. Both Glorfindel and Cirdan met Gandalf and knew who he was. Glorfindel actually knew him in Valinor. As a result Cirdan gave his ring (Narya the ring of fire) to Gandalf to aid him in his work.
This would be about 1000 years after Sauron had been defeated by the Last Alliance and the One Ring had been lost.
Now to my opinions on the show...
I thought Brandon's analysis of Galadriel's character depiction was spot on. She comes off as obsessed in a bad way, and bad leader etc.
I would add to it these two observations.
First the lore based observation. The character of Galadriel in the show is nothing like Galadriel in the stories. Her character in the first age and second age is depicted as someone who is ambitious and wants to build and create her own realm and to govern things according to her will. This is her temptation. Sauron and Saruman both had the same temptation and fell to it. Galadriel walks the line, but never falls to it. She eventually gives it up when she is presented with the Ring in LoTR.
However, she is also a very calm and calculating character. Very wise and thoughtful. Even in Valinor, when she was young, she listened didn't jump into the middle of debates and the like. She watched and listened, considered carefully, then made up her own mind and followed it.
The character in the show is almost the polar opposite of this.
Second is a purely story craft observation. Shortly after watching the show, I watched the movie Tombstone. With the show fresh in my mind, it made a very striking comparison to Rings of Power. The character of Wyatt Earp has the same kind of vendetta and single minded obsession that Galadriel does. However, his character was developed MUCH better. He had much much more depth, was much easier to identify with etc.
As the guys pointed out, the set up in the first episode was just not good. Lots of bad choices and wasted effort in my opinion. As a result Galadriel's character doesn't have the backdrop or depth needed to make her character easy to identify with or sympathize with. It's just bad character development.
I think that Brandon is correct, as well, that a great deal depends on what they do with Galadriel from here on out. If they play it that she is just right and everyone else is dumb, it will be a disaster.
I also agreed with Dave, that the handling of geography in the show was terrible. It was one of my first thoughts after watching. It was so confused and unclear, none of us that watched knew where the different characters were actually located.
I agreed also that Elrond's interactions with Durin were the best in the show. In fact, I would go so far as to say they were the only engaging characters in the show, in my opinion.
Gil Galad was terrible. I'm not commenting on the acting, but just the depiction in general.
The way the politics are depicted gets at the heart of the problem with the show for Tolkien fans. Tolkien wrote in epic style. This is ESPECIALLY true of the stuff before the LoTR takes place.
There have been many memes and comments about G.R.R. Martin talking about LoTR's lack of politics and tax policy etc. This is what people don't seem to get. Epic by its very nature doesn't have that kind of stuff, because it isn't epic. It's kind of like complaining that your RomCom doesn't have enough battle scenes.
Epic is a defined genre with its own conventions and tropes etc. A show like Rings of Power doesn't feel like Tolkien at all, because it is a totally different genre than what he actually wrote.
The characters, the plot, the writing etc, is all wrong for Tolkien.
I want to be clear that I don't just mean "epic fantasy", I mean the historical literary style of epic... like the Illiad, or the Norse Edda, or Beowulf.
If this show were billed as anything but Tolkien, I'd say it has some problems but all in all, not terrible. As Tolkien adaption, it fails hard.
If they wanted to do something like this, they should have just done an original story, or bought some other fantasy IP. Doing Tolkien like this will only hurt them.
100%!
That Ben Olsen twist at the end was just the icing on the cake for an already great episode!
If I'm remembering correctly, I believe that Gandalf receives his ring from Círdan the Shipwright. I wouldn't be surprised if The Stranger is one of the Blue Wizards...although it would stretch canon time-wise, they've already condensed the timeline anyway, and it would align with the showrunners wanting to create their own characters to play with. Blue Wizards are only mentioned in passing (they're not even given names) in the Lord of the Rings (the only books they have rights to) and even in the other works they're mentioned in, we know almost nothing about their lives in Middle Earth...that gives them a blank slate to work with in terms of character which seems to be exactly what they want in order to flesh out the episodes.
My gut says the blue wizards, but everyone I've talked to thinks I'm way off track. I just have this feeling.
@@katlyndugenske I totally get that! I could be wrong about this, but maybe there's just this hyped desire for legacy characters or more well-known characters that makes the idea of him being a Blue Wizard seem...boring or lackluster to a lot of people? I don't know. He's giving me Gandalf-LIKE vibes...but not necessarily "I'm actually Gandalf" vibes if that makes any sense.🤷♂ I personally think a well-written Blue Wizard has a lot of potential to be cool and memorable because they can really play around with it without people being mad they broke canon...because there's almost nothing in canon about them in the first place😅
Both of them asking "of is that Ben?" and even getting Ben there to answer compensating for the last episode, amazing!
You mean old Ben kenobi?
Sounds like Sanderson is trying to get a show on Amazon
I wonder about that. He is certainly trying to balance his views so he doesn't offend anyone. Sad thing is it is probably not going to help him much as the woke twitter completely hates him anyway.
@@redmist2195 did you make sure to update your men's rights activist blog today?
@@iandevine3063 don’t forget to change your feminine hygiene products today, Ian!
@@iandevine3063 What are you talking about ? Did you not see how they tried to cancel Brandon Sanderson over successful fundraiser because of their silly reasons ? I believe the main reason Brandon Sanderson acquired their anger was because he is white male and a Christian (I think it was Mormon faith) Honestly idk where that man's right activism blog came from. And no, I don't blog because I am not native speaker and it would take too much work for me to produce half decent text.
He kind of already has one. Wheel of Time kinda partially counts as his, and from what he’s said, I suspect he’s as involved as he’d be if they decided to adapt Mistborn or Stormlight Archive, and it’d probably leave him even less time for writing (from his Stormlight 5 update, he’s already had to cut back on his writing time a bit this year because of business meetings and stuff). I think it’s much more likely that he and Dan are just generally nice people and prefer to let people enjoy things, and haven’t wanted their podcast to be just another stream of people ranting and complaining about movies/TV shows they didn’t like (because there’s plenty of those out there already).
I think my biggest problem with them casting a black hobbit isn't that he's black. its that the rest of them aren't. It takes me out of a world (even a fantasy one) when you have this small of a community that doesn't allow or deal with outsiders and they don't all look the same. Over the course of time they should all look essentially the same if they only breed within their own community.
So the three options are: no black actors allowed as hobbits, only black actors allowed as hobbits, or... some black actors allowed as hobbits and people online can complain about it taking them out of the reality... of a fantasy show about magic rings and elves.
That's the problem with many cases in which they force the diversity. Or want the show to "represent our modern world" the type of diversity we have now is unprecedented. But that just doesn't make sense in a fantasy show. Unless the writer has written it like that and given a good explanation. But no the solution for most producers when adding in black people is to just make random main characters black and turn literally every single people, culture, region etc into a diverse melting pot, even when it doesn't make sense.
E.g. How is it possible that Corlyn is black and Viserys is white in the House of the Dragons? Their families have been mixing for generations. Corlyn is literally married to Viserys' aunt. But somehow, they are still very distinctly pale skinned white, and dark skinned black. How does any of that make sense. But who cares bro if you think that doesn't make sense you're just a racist! Ho you can believe in dragons but not in black and white mixing without changing huh? or something along those lines. Because obviously if there are dragons, then anything goes. You believe in dragons but can't handle a Viserys cruisin around in a Tesla huh? Fkn carophobe
That said, Harfoots aren't black. This was never at thing. Tolkien mentions that they like to garden and thus are a lot in the field, in the sun.. and hence are more tanned than the other hobbits. But they aren't black.
why does a fantasy show have to adhere to genetics? why is that where we draw the line? Can we not just see an actor for their performance and not a physical trait they themselves are not responsible for?
You say the issue isn't skin color but arbitrarily it is the one thing that has to be realistic for you?
@@lazersoupe Why does a show have to adhere to ANY rules? Listen buddy if you want to write a fantasy book in which everyone is just born random colors, unrelated to their parents genetics or their color is based on the day they are born on etc etc. that is completely fine. But that doesn't mean you can change and mess with the established rules and lore of a world already existing and beloved just because you are or patronizingly think others are narcissists who can't relate to any character that don't have the exact same skin tone, sexuality, gender, hair etc as them.
For fans this is a world we already know and suddenly turning every fkn race, species and culture in the lore into a diverse melting pot resembling a bourgeois upper middle class neighborhood from some cosmopolitan first world city isn't believable. It makes it impossible to have some sort of suspension of disbelief.
There are countless very diverse books. The most popular books on the shelves like those of brandon are diverse. Do they adopt those? No they adopt the writings of a catholic white dude in the 30's then try to force their own politics in their when the guy was super anti allegories. And you might have noticed if you actually read that (good) writers tend to actually take care to explain the looks, phenotypes, skin tones, hairs, and with that also often their culture, architecture etc of a people. All of that makes a people what they are. And just "sprinkle some black people on it" because the people happen to be white is the most tokenizing and patronizing way to pretend to care about inclusivity while ironically calling anyone that criticizes it racists.
Dan is completely wrong about Harfoots being black. I don't know if he's deliberately lying or just ignorant. He conveniently omitted the rest of Tolkien's description of the Harfoots, namely that they were "red-cheeked", "bright-eyed" and most commonly brown-haired. Also, Tolkien never wrote that they were "much" browner of skin, just browner.
In general, I don’t mind them compressing the timeline. The Peter Jackson films did it and it worked for that. It just makes it work better for a TV series. That’s the nature of adaptation, changes have to be made in order for the story to work in a different medium.
Love the efficiency of signing and talking at the same time :D
I only had time to watch the first 10 minutes of this video, but it does scare me slightly for the cosmere lol. Hopefully RoP can be something good and something to learn from for the future with adaptations.
Yeap i cant believe they truly love Galadriel. Its like someone butcher Kaladin on the scrip, make him some superman with no issues and u still love it. Or some Dalinar with no remorse, drinking problem, etc, and u write him for tv as some Mary Sue. I bet brandon will be mad as hell. I even think tolkien wrote something about this.
@@dmon9806 I mean even Sanderson basically ignores Dalinar’s drinking problems and his enemy never even uses his secret he knows about as blackmail against him.
@@YourBlackLocal nah he takes a good care of Dalinar in his books. Im just hope the shows gets better, to many small mistakes can make a big deal for people not liking the show.
Y'all are so cute talking about lore in a show that doesn't follow the lore.
I'm here 3 months late for the true intended experience
Speaking of religion, I have to say, I read your FAQ on your website, Brandon and a) it was super cute. It's so nice that you put up all this personal information for kids doing book reports and I actually found a bunch of interesting tidbits in there that I hadn't heard you talk about before. But, b) you put a section in there about how and why you are Mormon.
I've always found Mormonism to be a kind of silly, odd, knockoff version of Christianity. But, reading what you wrote about it, I actually found myself appreciating, not only why you are a Mormon, but Mormonism as a whole!
Specifically, your explanations about how we choose to exist and how people get a chance to redeem themselves even after death..... Those actually make a lot of sense and are huge answers to many of the complaints I usually have with Christianity and most other religions in general.
I maybe shouldn't have been,since you are an excellent writer, but I was surprised by just how much you were able to clear up and explain for me. You really answered a lot of issues I have with religion in general and I am just SHOCKED to find out that MORMONISM of all things is the first religion that really has stood against any amount of scrutiny from me. So, good job!
I'm not going to convert or anything like that but you have given me an honest respect and appreciation for your specific faith. Thank you.