The True Face of God Dionysus | Ancient Greece Revisited
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- čas přidán 29. 06. 2020
- Could a Nazi scholar have understood the ecstatic god Dionysus better than we have? And if so, how exactly have we misunderstood him?
In this episode of Ancient Greece Revisited we explore the true nature of the Greek God Dionysus by parallelism to a painting by the Greek painter Pavlos Samios, while following the path of Walter Friedrich Otto's book on Dionysus (1933). The God of wine, God of ecstasy, God of Terror ... The Mad God Dionysus!
#ancientgreecerevisited #dionysus #godofwine #agr
ACTORS
Dionysus - Theo Couloumbis
Maenad/Bacchae - Chrissa Kolokouri
Writer and Presenter - Michalis Michailidis
Director and Editor - Adam Petritsis
Cinematographer - Konstantinos Kritikos
Original Music Score - Penny Biniari
SPECIAL THANKS TO
Nektarios Vorres
Palvos Samios: www.samiospavlos.gr/en/
The Vorres Museum: www.vorresmuseum.gr/eng
Stock footage has been used from Storyblocks.com, MotionArray.com, Shutterstock.com
Finally, a channel on CZcams that approaches the foundational importance of classical learning appropriately. Thank you! I look forward to following and sharing.
Thank you too!
First of all I would like to thank Fred Grün for introducing your channel to me. Congratulations on the excellent content and presentation. It was about time Ancient Greek culture was promoted in such a comprehensive and contemporary way.
Now about this video, as a wine expert I can’t help but make a few remarks. I fully understand your point about Dionysos being so much more than just a “mere wine God” or a “vegetative cycle” God and I totally agree.
Nevertheless, I think that you understate the importance of wine as the God’s symbol. Wine is not only his symbol, it is his actual metaphor (Dionysos is wine) and it’s also his greatest gift to mankind. Consider a world with no sweeteners (except for honey), no antiseptics, no pain-killers and no anti-depressants. Wine has been the only answer to all of the above needs for a very long time in human history.
You say: “What is truly missing from the idea of Dionysos as the God of wine is his dual nature.” I disagree since wine itself has a dual nature too. It is both the product of the Earth and the Sky. It needs to be born twice; first in the vineyard and then in the cellar. It can be fiery (much like the God himself) and soothing at the same time. Last but not least, there is the notion of moderation- so fundamental in every aspect of the Greek culture. Drink moderately and rejoice in the Gifts of Dionysos. Overindulge and get the bad side of it that could lead to madness or even crime.
There is so much more…wine as a social equalizer (after a few drinks we’re all friends regardless of our previous reservations). Wine performs the work of Dionysos; takes away rationalism and helps us get in touch with our inner truth, sentiments and desires, our deeper, darker selves. If we avoid letting loose from time to time- nemesis will come. In other words, we have to find the balance (another wine word..) between our Dionysiac and Apollonian selves..
Sorry for the big comment- it’s just my absolutely favorite subject! Keep up the great work!!
Thank you for your comment. Here in AGR we live on feedback! Now, as to its content. You are probably right that we have "understated" the importance of wine on this episode somewhat, but there is method to our madness (pun intended). The reasons for doing this are that wine has been overstated as not only the symbol, but the essence of Dionysus, and that we tired to take the drinking of wine out of its modern, more secular context. Our insistence could be a slight exaggeration that restores a sense of balance. Having said that however, I still hold that Dionysus' dual nature remains mostly lost for modern man. The idea that ecstasy can turn into terror with no external coercion, but only though its own internal logic is a lesson that we still need to learn. The sexual revolution of the 1960s with which this episode concludes is a good case for that.
What I love is that Dionisus is the lord of madness/ creation as well as creative madness :)
That's right. He was called "mainómenos" for a reason ;-)
I enjoy worshipping dionysus because deep down in my thoughts dionysus is the god .
Fantastic content and astounding production quality! I have to say it again. Συγχαρητήρια!
Thank you Fred! Congratulations for all your work too and for hosting us :-)
I love Nietzsche concept: The Apollonian and Dionysian is a philosophical and literary concept and dichotomy/dialectic, based on Apollo and Dionysus in Greek mythology. Some Western philosophical and literary figures have invoked this dichotomy in critical and creative works, most notably Friedrich Nietzsche and later followers.
Yes, Nietzsche understood this dual aspect of Dionysus. He understood that tragedy is the horror of gazing directly into his madness. We might do an episode on Apollo at some point.
Narcissus and Goldmond by Herman Hesse is a artistic portayel of Neitzches Birth of a Tragedy(where the philosophy you mention is articulared), and its a masterpiece, you must read
Fantastic video!
The "Od" in Germanic Odin has become our English "Awe", a specific state of Ecstacy (which they say Odin is constantly in as He marvels over the splendor of Existence), and He is also Lord of a magical spirit, the Mead of Inspiration. If someone wants to compare Asgardian and Olympian gods, they'd never understand Odin without seeing the Dionysus in Him.
Correlating Odin to Hermes or Mercury alone (stupid Tacitus) refuses proper dignity to both Odin _and_ Dionysus.
Well, there is no need for a 1-to-1 correspondence. The beauty of pagans pantheons lie as much in their differences as it does in their similarities. It's that "division of nature" in different and unique ways that make it so interesting, where artistic expression can be bundled with reason and rationality in one case, and madness and ecstasy in another. So Odin does not have to be any of the Greek gods, as there is something "uniquely Germanic" about him that would be foreign to the Greeks and vica versa.
@@AncientGreeceRevisited both cultures from one Indoeuropean root but reforged by different periods and circumstances
Yes! I agree, but it is not Wotan/Odin who is the god of thunder, but Donar/Thor.
Wow, this was a great video! I just finished reading The Immortality Key, by Brian Muraresku. His theory hinges on the idea that followers of Dionysus were consuming a wine mixed with ergot, the fungus that LSD is synthesized from. The madness that you describe was brought about by ritual consumption of this drink, bringing ego death and encounters with the Divine. The cult of Jesus was heavily influenced by the Dionysian rituals, and early Eucharistic wine may very well have been this same mystical brew.
EDIT: After typing all that, I realized you made another video describing this very thing! haha! I'm off to watch that one.
> "The cult of Jesus was heavily influenced by the Dionysian rituals" - czcams.com/video/c7A3KqNLOSc/video.html
> "followers of Dionysus were consuming a wine mixed with ergot" - czcams.com/video/Knz4EO0Vw2g/video.html
We got you covered! ;-)
The amount of care and design on every video and dialogue is wonderfull, thanks again for the great work 💓
Thank you Gabriel!
Nuanced and interesting take
Thoughts on equating Wotan with Zeus?
You should do a vid on Dionysus.
outstanding! I am 58 and must have read, by now, hundreds of books. I first read Otto's Dionysios, Myth and Cult about two years ago. It is easily in the top four of the greatest achievements in non-fiction I have ever encountered. Shockingly brilliant. In my mind Otto captured the bizarre paradoxes of the Energy-Consciousness-Paradox paradigm with such depth...., I was astounded. I will tell you that the film 'Joker' does the same in terms of Art. I can say no more..., just thinking about it all is pushing my mind into madness.....,
Thank you for your words. I agree that Otto's work is unprecedented, but you must remember he was not alone. He was part of an entire movement of intellectuals that came as close as anyone in understanding the truth about ancient Greece. Unfortunately this movement was absorbed, in large parts, from the National Socialists which is probably why most people are still unaware. Yet, the names of Martin Heidegger, Leo Strauss and W. F. Otto are proof of that movement's depth of understanding.
To continue your "Joker" analogy, there is an even greater one which is the image of the Fisher King in the Graal Legend. He too was Dionysus, but wounded, as the poet Wolfram von Eschenbach tells us, in his genitals. Imagine that, Dionysus castrated! That is the image of Europe after Christianity took over the mental scape of its people. You will probably enjoy our other video comparing Dionysus with Antoni Gaudi's work.
It's interesting that you can also see the bit of Dionysus in the Joker.
Definitely adding that to my list of books that need reading!
The production quality is incredible on this one!! Absolutely loved it
Thank you! Much appreciated!
This was an aboslutely beautiful video all around. Loved it!
Thank you for this video. I read Otto 6 years ago and his understanding of Dionysus left a profound impact on me. I need to watch this 3 or 4 times for fully digest it.
Ha, be our guest, we are looking into doing more like this one. And yes, Otto's understanding is tremendous yet subtle and even beautiful. I hope you had the time to read his other - and perhaps even more important book - "The Homeric Gods" (g.co/kgs/ZjcdGx)
Astounding! Clear, insightful and beautiful.
Thank you!
So beautifully expressed. Thank you!
Your channel is astounding! Great work!
Many thanks!
Wow, simply an incredible video. One of the best I've ever seen on the topic.
Thank you very much!
You are a great storyteller, rhetor, and teacher. The clarity of your expression does not disguise the depth of your emotional connection to Dionysus and the other Gods you discuss. You're articulating something I've been grasping towards for a while, so thank you for your guidance!
And thank you very much for spending the time and effort to understand it. To be honest, I had my doubts about this episode and whether I managed to convey what I wanted clearly enough for the viewers. But the comments we've been getting are very encouraging. We never want to dump things down, but on the other hand it's entirely our duty to communicate our ideas well. So thank you once again.
Amazing channel. Excellent writing. Awesome presentation. Thank you
We thank you too!!!
Such a well done video. Thank you!
Again thank you very much!
Amazing production!
Thank you!
Since Graham Hancock cited your CZcams work on his site, I have been slowly going through your creative content. I am glad for this, as your approach, research, narrative voice, and production are all top-notch.
Thank you for sharing your unique perspective. Incorporating myriad viewpoints from a wide array of cultures across the planet is prerequisite for attaining an “open mind.”
Keep creating!
Thank you very much. Graham has been kind enough to host us twice there. Glad to have both of you on board!
Great video well done!!!
Amazing work
Thank you :-)
What a great video this was, I just stumbled in here and am totally mind blown
Great video.Thanks a lot
May the Gods never stop shine into your Soul.... thank you again
this chanel is exactly what i was looking for in Greece but i couldn't find.
Thank you, that is kind of how we started, because we couldn't find what WE were looking for...
Wonderful perspective on the subject. This reveals the authentic ideology.
Finally a highly competent commentator that I actually like.
Much appriciated!
Such great videos
Thank you very much!
Thank you for this wonderful analysis! I'm an artist, and I've rarely heard such a clear explanation of what art actually is and why we do it. It isn't a puzzle or a demonstration--it's the enactment of a myth--that moment when someone sees what life actually is, stripped of distraction.
I am stunned by the quality of this film. This is really upgrading the human experience through the internet. Thank you.
Thank YOU for your comment!
Wow this is so awesome and well presented! How can such quality academic and charismatic quality exist on youtube?
Well, we have been contemplating as to whether CZcams is the best platform for us. But that you for the comment and help us spread the word as it stands...
Είσαι πραγματικά φοβερός, όλες αυτές οι λεπτομέρειες της αρχαίας ελληνικής μυθολογίας είναι αυτές που κάνουν την διαφορά . Δυστυχώς παραλείπονται πολλές φορές κι έτσι έχουμε το φαινόμενο της παραπληροφόρησης και της διαστρέβλωσης των ιστοριών . Η προσπάθεια σου για αυτό το αποτέλεσμα είναι πραγματικά αξιοσημείωτη. Συγχαρητήρια που μας δίνεις ένα τόσο ωραίο και ενδιαφέρον υλικό να παρακολουθήσουμε!!!
Ευχαριστώ από καρδιάς! Είναι για τέτοια σχόλια που συνεχίζουμε την προσπάθεια.
What a stunning delivery of information and a more stunning messenger
Thank you, double the compliment. This episode was one of our most difficult I believe, so it's really encouraging to see such a good reception.
@@AncientGreeceRevisited your eyes and well paced delivery of information kept me listening and watching. The topic and references were wonderful as well. Love from California looking forward to more videos.
@@rettpanighetti More are coming ... ;-)
@@AncientGreeceRevisited where do u make ur videos out of?
@@rettpanighetti You mean software-wise? We use standard tools like Premiere and After Effects.
quality production and refreshing discussion on the true essence of spirituality that has long left our current religions. efkaristo
Hahah... "parakalo!"
Wonderful!
Howdy from halfway around the round, I was messaging you today because I’ve been writing this story that’s centered around past perspectives of mythologies and Gods and this video, the book you mentioned in it about DionYsus and the video you did on the other book by Walter F Otto about the Homeric Gods was a huge inspiration for me whenever I first started trying to write it and I was wondering if I could quote some of this video and that video as a guide and precursor for some of the strange and (probably) paradoxical ideas and situations I write about in my story. If you were to allow me to quote you in this video I swear to fully credit you and acknowledge that the ideas and quotes are from you, and was planning on incorporating your image and your CZcams channel in the story because it is a perfect example of the absurdity and awesomeness of the world, and the present that we live in, because we are from two polar physical points in the world, You Europe and I the US, but here I am being influenced and inspired and informed by your thoughts and ideas, and then being able to communicate and converse with your and acknowledge how much I appreciate you and your work on a platform that can-and foreseeably should-last for forever. This madness is the epitome, to me, of what it means to be human, and our ability to create and normalize the unnatural and abnormal is essentially what my story is about and I promise that if you give me the opportunity to put you in it, I swear you won’t regret it and I’ll be as respectful and true to your ideas as I honestly can. Also, I can email you the first 3 and half chapters I’ve written( and am still editing) and explain where it is that I want you in the story and your video lectures to be featured at, and explain what I want them to set up and be the preface, or precursor, for. Thank you for your videos and thank you for reading and whether you decide to allow me or not, I sincerely hope you make and produce more because I swear they’re special and will be seen and appreciated by the world some/one day
Classic research and presentation
great video
Thank you!
_"But what if pleasure and displeasure are so intertwined that whoever wants as much as possible of one must also have as much as possible of the other - that whoever wants to learn to 'jubilate up to the heavens' must also be prepared for 'grief unto death'?"_
- *The Gay Science,* Frederich Nietzsche
I read somewhere once that Dionysus was more like the god of the magical and mad process of fermentation, which produces alcohol that has a magically maddening effect on people when they drink it. That like the fermentation process itself, the magic is that the soul itself ferments when intoxicated. I think that was a very neat idea.
Again, it sounds like whoever proposed this misunderstood the metaphor. Alcohol is the metaphor for Dionysus, not Dionysus for alcohol!
beautiful!
❤️
Damn. This video is beautiful. Not just what you said but the symbolism. How did you make this? Would love to create a short symbolic film of some Dionysian ecstatics.
Thank you. The book quoted in this video can serve you as inspiration.
Υπέροχη δουλειά
Ευχαριστούμε!
Φανταστικό!😵🤐🤩
Magnifique
Merci!
I've argued this a lot: art is the purest form of the scientific process.
I like this thank you 😊
You’re welcome!
The four figures in the painting also seem to be standing mostly naked in what looks winter which only adds to the sense of sorrow and lonely suffering… keep watching this again and again! I am a fan of Dionysus… “all men are within a finger’s breadth of being mad”
Great channel. Delighted to find and subscribe. I think it was Camille Paglia who suggested that the 60s social revolutionaries had only a shallow understanding of Dionysus, that they believed the great god was just about pleasure, but had no understanding that his 'divine madness' was ultimately predicated on a sacrifice of the self. Ironic, then, that ultimately the whole 60s revolution itself died....
You said it better than I could! So thank you for that... I am constantly meeting self-proclaimed "Bacchae" who do not see that at all and happily descend into this madness confusing it perhaps for an ascent.
PS I'm going to "steal" this line with your permission.
@@AncientGreeceRevisited Please do. Ultimately, I guess, there is a price to pay for all ecstasies, and that is the pain implicit in their coming to an end. Likewise, the price we pay for the beauty and power of life is the ultimate omnipotence of death. I must check out your videos on the Great God Hades....
@@jamesmurphy1389 I haven't really done anything on Hades yet. Although it's in the cards. You can check our video Limitless which talks about the Greek understanding of the ultimate end, and of tragedy. Thanks for watching.
@@AncientGreeceRevisited I much look forward to you paying your imaginative due to the great god of the underworld with whom we all have an appointment.... 😎
Well... not all people misunderstood the hippy movement only seeing it as cults, drinking, and getting high... only the people who were far too undirected and lead astray where their development, social and emotional intelligence was affected too much where naturally it was just chaotic madness, but some knew what it was about and that's trying to find another way to live outside of the system and finding other ways to gain the skills they needed and be able to do work they want to do... not being forced to work for supermarkets or as plummers for the rest of their lives.
Many teenagers left because the schools started to mislead them and not give them what they needed and they would just sit in class wondering where on earth all of this is going (much like now) and so they dropped out, left home, and tried to find another way not being put through mindless, mind numbing instruction, and paperwork... all day... 30 hours a week... there are easier and faster ways it's dishonest.
I totally get it we all do once again in today's world where students now seek help online completely ignoring their teachers which they do not like whatsoever... oh nonono LOL Why else do they try to control it and give them computers that blocks websites that could actually help them? but they'll try and stop it if they knew how you were doing so well, THAT is madness right there when it doesn't benefit anything.
Those that understand the undirected madness fight the madness and try to bring direction back to the world again only to soon lose that direction again because they give direction in the wrong way where instead they repress instead of just letting the world create and share without involving the bad parts which never serves us, it's all too clear by now humans have too free spirits to be oppressed by long and then that's when we see turbulent times of protest.
We're still mammals after all and like any animals you shouldn't put it on a leash to such an extent they feel they don't have enough freedom and flexibility in a safe way, but instead it's treated as if it's "harming" someone, we're all "radicals" so we won't get the right ideas, because all they want us to do is consume into madness... which we ended up doing to overconsumption using an unsustainable amount of earths resources. It would just be SO much easier if everyone was just given what they needed and it would benefit all Win Win and those in the 60s who understood the Hippy Trend understood that, lets just say i've been through one too many bad situations to understand that too... nothing has to be so hard.
What if Dionysus/Bacchus is just symbolism of that all consuming madness we witness time and time again that humanity seems to slip into where all our energy is undirected without a proper direction and we've no idea where to go next... or what to do with ourselves... so we fall into madness and become too docile. These things seem to always happen from almost near the end of the last era of great invention and creativity and then... we do it all and have nothing left to do at the end then grow bored and chase the next thing. but not knowing what to do next or what to create we become restless, not just about all the problems that didn't need to be created within that creation but also the fact we have absolutely no idea what to do with ourselves lol, and when humans become bored... oh heck! watch out! LOL.
I also think if we slip too much into some kind of "normality" is when we start to become lazy and docile and then we start to slip when really we need to stay challenged because we're explorers and when we're not exploring our minds aren't focused on straight without a direction, that i know.
Greaaat video man! Dio is my dude
🍇 😈
@@AncientGreeceRevisited It's settled, I'm gonna start drinking again.
@@durere Hopefully our video served as both inspiration and warning!
@@AncientGreeceRevisited I'm big into astrology, and Dionysus is supposed to be my go-to god. I'm a Pisces, I swim in the extremes. I gave up all drugs and stuff to try and clean up my act, but what the hell is an artist without that sort of diVINE inspiration :V
@@durere Well, I rarely want to divulge personal information, but let's say that I am also under the same star as you ...
GRAZIE!
🙏
@@AncientGreeceRevisited 😜🥰❤
Surely Dionysus is the Freudian Id, the Jungian Unconscious. He is raw instinct at its best and worst-a state of unfettered mind, a true Mr Hyde. The over-simplified "wine" connection stems from wine's ability to remove inhibitions.
I just now stumbled on your chanel and look forward to watching more. Thanks!!!
You didn’t rumble, you just repeated what we said! Hahahaha
Since Classical times, Athens has an annual festival thanking Dionysos for NOT coming to Athens! He gets the women and slaves all uppity, you know.
Yes, that is exactly what we tried to show. Dionysus was not a new age hippie!
@ancient Greeks revisited: Howdy from halfway around the round, I was messaging you today because I’ve been writing this story that’s centered around past perspectives of mythologies and Gods and this video, the book you mentioned in it about DionYsus and the video you did on the other book by Walter F Otto about the Homeric Gods was a huge inspiration for me whenever I first started trying to write it and I was wondering if I could quote some of this video and that video as a guide and precursor for some of the strange and (probably) paradoxical ideas and situations I write about in my story. If you were to allow me to quote you in this video I swear to fully credit you and acknowledge that the ideas and quotes are from you, and was planning on incorporating your image and your CZcams channel in the story because it is a perfect example of the absurdity and awesomeness of the world, and the present that we live in, because we are from two polar physical points in the world, You Europe and I the US, but here I am being influenced and inspired and informed by your thoughts and ideas, and then being able to communicate and converse with your and acknowledge how much I appreciate you and your work on a platform that can-and foreseeably should-last for forever. This madness is the epitome, to me, of what it means to be human, and our ability to create and normalize the unnatural and abnormal is essentially what my story is about and I promise that if you give me the opportunity to put you in it, I swear you won’t regret it and I’ll be as respectful and true to your ideas as I honestly can. Also, I can email you the first 3 and half chapters I’ve written( and am still editing) and explain where it is that I want you in the story and your video lectures to be featured at, and explain what I want them to set up and be the preface, or precursor, for. Thank you for your videos and thank you for reading and whether you decide to allow me or not, I sincerely hope you make and produce more because I swear they’re special and will be seen and appreciated by the world some/one day
Of course you can quote us! We are all made by the quotes of others ;-)
And I do agree, this kind of communication with those who can understand us is at least half of why we do this.
@@AncientGreeceRevisited thank you, thank you so much man, I really do appreciate it and swear it should be really good
Great treatment of this subject! And much respect for not taking potshots at hitler or NSDAP
Have you read Alain de Boinst "on being Pagan" is is great supplement to Otto...they approach paganism from similar place
I know the author, but not the book. Thank you, it's on the list!
Start by reading Plato: Politeia - Timaeus - Critias for Athenian thought. Add Orphism's doctrine of suffering present in Theatre & X'ity.
These are great works, although they do not touch on Dionysus. Orphism is indeed related, and we plan of doing an episode devoted to his cult.
We have a Mosaic in Cyprus in The House of Dionysus. Video called CYPRUS HISTORY OF ANCIENT SYMBOLS
Wasn't his madness brought on by the death of a companion? Excellent yet again
No, no such thing as far as we know...
As Understand the myth, Hera cursed him with madness and HE killed his companion (same story as Heracles) and then he just wondered around the world causing chaos until eventually being cured and teaching the Mycenaeans how to make wine. But there are multiple versions of his story so it really depends on who you ask.
Interestingly the 1st recorded mention of him was in India and the Myceneans didn't regard him as a god of death (with no mention of Hades) so the wondering inanity bit was probably his original myth with Hera's intervention and the association with drunken parties being added later after the Dorians settled down in the Balkans and got Greek civilization started.
Wodan/Odin is not equivalent to Zues. The Roman's compared him the Mercury. The only similarity they have is being the high god.
Yes, he was indeed compared with Mercury. But don't forget that in the popular imagination, figures like these of the great gods are much more "fluid" than they appear in mythology textbooks! During the time of the rise of German Nationalism for example, playwright Heinrich von Kleist has one of his heroes pray to Wodan "who commands the lighting in the sky." Ultimately, an archetype can be broken down into multiple forms, each borrowing an aspect of the original. The archetype of the Indo-European thunder god might have been broken into its more primitive aspect in the form of Thor, and its more sophisticated in the form of Odin.
Er... what about the aspect of Dionysus where his worshippers would ritually murder a sacrifice with their bare hands and drink its blood then give thanks to Dionysus as the god whose flesh and blood they drank, and the historical relationship of this mythological figure to that of the Greek version of Christianity, turning Jesus into a sacrificial figure in turn, post colonial occupation and expansion of the Byzantine empire into the Middle East on the back of mass genocide? There's a lot more going on than just a bit of drunken dancing...
Which is exactly what we're saying here ;-) More on the relationship with Christ here: czcams.com/video/c7A3KqNLOSc/video.html
The rituals were so horrid that even the gods wept while it was being done specifically the ones of the underworld.
Great video. I view Dionysus as representing spontaneity and lack of judgment. He's not methodical or uniform. So he's more than dual, he's many.
He represents all human emotions. He's empathetic, but can be cruel too.
Read/Watch the Bacchae by Euripides, then come tell me! ;-)
Is there any place we can purchase the music in this video?
That is a great compliment but no. It's written for the video only. Yet, if you send us your email address in the email you will find in the About section of this channel, we could send you the file.
Nietzsche was a Dionysian poet. I highly recommend his work.
Mad Hatter from Alice is Dionisius
Amazing video. What's the name of the painting?
Here is the painter's official site : www.samiospavlos.gr/en/
Did you actually find the painting?
@@leonardoaguileraesquinca7521 no i couldn’t find it on the painter’s website
Would like to be able to download these on podcast
Talk to him... there is always a way ...
I AM DIONYSUS incarnated with my truth slowly coming to light.
My gratitude and solace in all that has befell for all the understanding of words and actions are always romanticized or destructive. Duality is in us all. I am just the bringer of truth and foresight. My words and actions are of a being is constantly mindful of the nature of all things that permeate this beautiful planet and our cosmos. But sadly humans have been deceived for quite sometime now. As for this body and mind does have limits due to the years of incarnation not knowing my truth but i will slowly overcome these things and will regain my memories but for the mean time i leave this.
Rare to hear Jung's take on Wotan the wandering restless god and its sway over Germany. He felt Nietzsche was most likely influenced by the archetype of Wotan too rather than Dionysus.
@2:10 is that a Hellenised black sun in the logo animation?
You mean the logo? No, it's not intentionally a black sun. Nice catch however ...
🌟
Can someone tell what is the painting from 10:44?
Hello Matt, it's a painting by Thomas Cole, The Voyage of Life: Youth
@@AncientGreeceRevisited I already found out. Thanks to your video I discovered Thomas Cole!
BOYO ALERT!
Here from Donna Tartt's The Secret History 😆
I've heard about this book ...
wotan or odin isn't related to the thunderer aspect, tho he has a fatherly aspect as zeus, the thunderer archetype is reserved to thor, for the german mythos. Odin seems to be better related to hermes since his relation with words, language and so on. Therefore comparing odin and zeus doesnt seem to be fair here, they are different archetypes of a same cultural heritage.
There are many references connecting Odin to thunder in the German imagination that escapes “official” versions of German mythology. Heinrich von Kleist, for instance, the port and playwright of German nationalism, has one of his heroes pray to Wodan “who commands the lighting in the sky.” [Heinrich von Kleist, The Battle of Herrmann, Scene 4.1528]. I keep having comments about this very issue, and my response is: try telling this poet in question that he is wrong, and that you, the Greek, or French, or American know better :-)
@@AncientGreeceRevisited Odin has many epithets, some yes are linked to the thunderer aspect as "Yrungr", "vidrir", "Valdr vagnbrautar", "thund". Indeed. But his other epithets of lord of words or warlord far surpasses in quantity this aspect of his.
It is important to understand that the divine, in a folk "pagan" faith, has multiple evershifting concepts, importance, relevance and characteristics of the divine constantly change, the revelation is constantly happening. Dionysus has links to Hermes, phanes, hades, pan, etc. Odin as well can be related to the thunderer, perceiving Thor as a younger Odin isn't wrong, alas even Thor is seem with epithets of warlord and "friend of humanity" that are common to odin, we can compare frey being a male Freya, Or Hermes being related to thot (hermestrimegistus), Or Zeus being related to Jupiter, Athena and ares to Bellona, Etc. Even Jesus has different manifestation, usually it is represented in the western catholic church as solar, regal and pastoral, while in Orthodox Catholicism it is perceived as a more serious and some times cthonic figure, we have different forms of perceiving Jesus throughout history, from magic wanderer, to messiah, etc . But still all these aspects are common ground to different gods and their respextivr manifestations in their cultural and theological background.
As of last the neoplatonics (don't remember which one) says that perceiving the divine is like looking at clouds, the divine is there but we, men, will see it in multiple forms intermingling with one another. A romantic poem isn't fairly comparable to theology. Yes Odin has some epithets of thunderer but too Germanic paganism has a god specific for that and his other epithets far outnumber this one.
@@arthurruizborin9580 I agree. We must keep the multi-facet aspect of pagan religiosity. I keep having arguments with people who buy into the "everything is One" or "all religions said the same thing" etc. Finally, a fresh (or actually quite old) perspective.
@@AncientGreeceRevisited monism shouldn't deny this multifaceted aspect of paganism/ folk religion.
Odin may align with Apollo. The alphabet is a symbol of human abstraction. Memory is the product of human power to create order of our ideas. He's a father, he restrains, structures and protect his family and posessions from other men's brutality.
Dionysus is Loki. He's amoral, mad, self-indulgent, deceitful because of his incoherence, ever-changing, playful, etc.
His origins are uncertain, and his cults took many forms; some are described by ancient sources as Thracian, others as Greek.[7][8][9] Though most accounts say he was born in Thrace, traveled abroad, and arrived in Greece as a foreigner, evidence from the Mycenaean period of Greek history shows that he is one of Greece's oldest attested gods. His attribute of "foreignness" as an arriving outsider-god may be inherent and essential to his cults, as he is a god of epiphany, sometimes called "the god that comes".He was Thracian God not Greek
Yes, precisely. That is something we try to convey as well. The fact that a god is perceived as "foreign" for instance, might not mean that he was literally "imported" from a different place at some point in his history. He might simply be an expression of "foreign-ness" within his current culture. It's a subtle point you made there, but it's exactly of the type that we try and clarify in our show.
Wonderful content dude. But you forgot something important. Jung compared Dionysus to LITERALLY THE DEVIL!
I think what he did was compare the Devil to Dionysus!
Shhhh Dont Be Snitching On Me Like Dat♐🧿
The water into wine is a metaphor for sweat pheromones. It makes women kinda drunk
The most robust Pagan tradition in the world is the Hindu, and much like Dionysian mythology and symbolism, subject to reinterpretation and misrepresentation by the Christian Church and it’s aggressively predatory mission.
The church has wreaked havoc and destruction of many tribal communities, their traditions, rituals and gods. In the modern 21st Century it is seen in the recent ‘Dismantling Hindutva’ Program/Cultural Pogrom. I welcome Europeans to acquaint themselves with the presentations of workers like Rajiv Malhotra on ‘Breaking India’ and on Christian appropriation of Hindu core practices such as Yoga.
Dionysius is related to Shiva, the Hindu representation of Consciousness. [see Alain Daneliou] In the Tantras, Consciousness and Energy, Shakti, intertwine to form the cause of the world. Greek civilization was part of Indo-European civilization.
For all intents and purposes, Greek, gods and religious practice have long gone and all that remains are museum pieces for us to now interpret as we will. The Greek gods no longer have a voice to speak for themselves. It is therefore now safe for Europeans to be a bit more honest in their analysis and appraisal. Shadows threaten no one.
Hindu gods are however still alive and do speak loudly for themselves. When the symbol of Islamic oppression, Jihadist genocide and slavery, the Babri mosque in Ayodhya was turned into rubble by Jubilant Hindu reactionaries, it was widely reported as the end of a secular Indian state by western media. When statutes of slave traders such as Rhodes and Colston, symbols of slavery, oppression and genocide of black Africans were broken and dumped by the British the very same press reported these as acts of celebration. A riddance to those symbols of a dark past.
What you say is, sadly, true. No more comments are needed from my part ...
I clicked this video hoping to learn something new about Dionysus, and it was 60% about nazis, 30% Christian apologetics, and 10% condemnation of native Polytheistic religions. Stratified Christian Polemic.
Sorry to have disappointed, it's our most popular video so far ;-) Yet, I believe that if you actually measure the length of each type of content that you described in the actual video, rather than your impression, you'll find the distribution to be very different. Just a thought.
This is not a surprise once you consider who and why,the mistranslation of the book…
The end results is far from the truth but believed to be the truth.
Inform them of Hypnos, the sleeping God
What is your take on the adoption of Dionysus by Nietzsche as an anti-christ figure or alternative christ figure? Wonderful video.
I think that Nietzsche was aware of Dionysus' nature on a very profound level. He knew that Dionysus was "lysios" - the dissolver - just like Shiva, which actually means death to the individual that we are. The '60s counterculture romanticized such notions out of proportion, and many of their members suffered as a consequence. In contrast, Nietzsche had the gaze of a pagan, enough to understand what "ego death" truly meant. There is something about German intellectuals that brings them very close to the inceptual world of ancient Greece: Goethe, Hölderlin, Nietzsche, Heidegger. I do not know why that is exactly, but I do know that they themselves are quite proud of that, and yet, cannot feel the orgasmic completion of becoming one with the Greece of their dreams.
@@AncientGreeceRevisited You'll want to go to the channel Vital Coaching by a guy calling himself Shiva Rajaya, his studies and work focus heavily on deities, shiva, kali, all the hindu gods and other gods too and what it represents and how it can be used in a positive way to council in such a spiritual way, i love watching his videos sometimes... and he does it in such a spiritual way, and one of the things he talks about is ego death and then mastering shadows and all the other aspects of humans he's interested in.
He's talked about how we must destroy ourselves to destroy the aspects of ourselves we no longer want or need and then we rebuild stronger, i wish that were true for everyone sadly but if you aren't of weak constitution and mind you could handle it but a lot of people just fall into madness whenever they're so much as rejected or hurt, and takes a more open mind to want to understand the right messages.
He was trained in temples too one of them one of the mystical temples you hear so much about and they learn to master all the aspects of humanity and how they can use it to help others too. Who knows if the Dionysus/Bacchus cults were anything like that... maybe some were and others were bad who knows really.
@@AncientGreeceRevisited Nietzsche was opposing German nature calling himself a polish noble, geothe was a product of dissolved free partitioned multigermany without one centralised force pressing everything into one ordnung. I don't think they were typical at all
@@szymonbaranowski8184 I never said they were atypical, I said they were German intellectuals who turned towards Greece in a unique, yet more-true-to-its-origins way.
Wotan wasnt the thunder-god, but I understand what you mean.
Heinrich von Kleist, poet and playwright, has one of his heroes pray to Wodan "who command the lighting in the sky." [Heinrich von Kleist, The Battle of Herrmann, Scene 4.1528]. Technically, of course, you are correct, the Germanic god of thunder was Tir or Donar. But in the context of our discussion it's important to remember that gods are different for the popular imagination of those who still worship them, and for the anthropologists and scholars who classify them. It's in that same capacity that Jung mentions the god in the essay we quoted near the end, where the psychiatrist says "[Wotan] is the god of the storm and frenzy, the unleasher of passions and the lust of battle;" [C G Jung, ‘Wotan’, Neue Schweizer Rundschau, Zurich, March, 1936, No. 3.].
@@AncientGreeceRevisited Wonderful to see someone mention von Kleist, very interesting writer.
S' efharisto! bACCHOs
He keeps stating Christianity disrupted Greek culture simply by stating the paganism which it replaced/ended; insinuation that pagan beliefs detailed their whole culture. On the contrary, the Greek populace on the whole (including all classes) were intelligent people. I enjoy studying the paganism of Greece, but the world was changing post-antiquity. Christianity founded a value system and brought the morality required for them to be successful and peaceful people.
Christianity did not disrupt, since paganism was already in decline. But its means of spreading throughout the Greek and Roman worlds were not always peaceful - although often enough they were. The destruction of the Serapion, the defacing of the Parthenon, and the burning of the Marneion in Gaza are but examples.
Εάν θέλετε να παρακολουθούν τα βίντεο σας Έλληνες γιατί ακόμη κι οι υπότιτλοι είναι στα Αγγλικά ?
Καλησπέρα! Όλα τα επεισόδια έχουν και ελληνικούς υπότιτλους. Στο συγκεκριμένο δεν έχουν ανέβει ακόμα γιατί βγήκε πριν λίγες μέρες. Λίγη υπομονή και θα έχει ελληνικούς υπότιτλους και αυτό. Στο μεταξύ μπορείτε να παρακολούθησετε τα προηγούμενα επεισόδια μας :-)
I’m not sure what to make of what you’re saying. As a professional commercial artist for virtually my whole life, a writer/storyteller and songwriter guitarist, none of what you say here speaks to me. I have seen the madness though, through drink and drugs. The self deception and indulgence that leads to thoughts like these, that are given an importance, I’m not sure they have. In art, the satanic culture is embraced a lot, in particular by the youth, without know the consequences that comes with embracing these ideas. Do as thou will. This which you’re speaking about here, though not expressly, seems to be leaning and leading in that direction. I’m not sure what you’re getting at really, but it seems to me, the distrust you have for the critics of art, you are yourself practicing. All this said, I subscribed and will dig in a little deeper into what you are doing and saying.
What we are "getting at" I guess, is:
"The urge to destroy is also a creative urge."
Pablo Picasso
It has little to do with Christian theology, even in its negative form, which is the image of the Devil that you mentioned.
The youth, as you say, do in fact seem to embrace the satanic, but there is also a tremendous interest in the form of Dionysus (some of our most successful videos in terms of views have been about Dionysus). The warning, is that the creative intoxication of Dionysus is a process, that when left unchecked, it will "burn"" through the creative side and continue burning until it has destroyed everything is sight including the creator.
Here, in Ancient Greece Revisited, we try and investigate those phenomena from the standpoint of the ancient world itself, i.e. of paganism, where there is really no moral attachments to these processes, but are, nonetheless, dangerous to an extreme.
Hope this clarification helped you.
I like to think dionysus is Jesus before he showed back up in the Bible, like Jesus:the missing years. And he's got giant angel wings singing lead vocals for Lynard Skynard.
Dionysus=death of the ego
Which is why he was called "lysios" - the Dissolver. Which is why Alain Daniélou connected Dionysus with Shiva in his book (g.co/kgs/P8gz85).
What is madness?
Super wealth. Greed consumes and drives you mad.
The wealthy adored this guy.
Bro, I understand the angle you are taking for entertainments sake, but just in general, for some reason we question every single aspect about the SS and the Wehrmact as if they were all clinically insane or incredibly unintelligent... the intelligence, competence, proficiency, and determination of the Germans was never in question by any of the generations who actually fought against them, as it took 27 major countries around the world to take out one single little landlocked patch of land in the middle of the forests of Europe. They rose from the ashes of what was left of Germany post-Versailles Treaty, post-WWI, and after a civil war in Germany, to become the most feared military legion and economic powerhouse of the modern world, all despite the handicaps placed on them after WWI, and despite the entire world suffering and starving in a depression all around them.
It's their morality that we question, not their intelligence, nor their competence.
We never questioned their intelligence. In fact, you could say that we somewhat exalted it through Otto. The German intellectual tradition is very important to us. We'll be revisiting Otto as well as Heidegger - not to mention Nietzsche of course. In many ways the Nazis were the criminal end of a much larger spectrum, that in its highest produced the most important through in the 20th century. Have a look at this post that I wrote personally on the subject: thewardenpost.net/agenda-21-and-the-conservative-revolution/
Read the immortality key mind blowing new evidence epic shit
It has been suggested by a few commenters here on Ancient Greece Revisited.
The fat guy, by the way, is not Bacchus: he is Selenus, a member of Bacchus's entourage.
Bacchus was often portrayed as far in the Late Roman age.
Think it was too many topics for one video. But educational nonetheless. Could have done without the Naziism as the connection isnt so straightforward
True, in retrospect I regret mixing it up so much. Thanks for the comment.
Sexy laugh FTW
Sexy cruel laughter ...
Dyonisis was the son of shiva ,/ Rudra
Fullness and Foolishness
2kings 7