Audio Episode 03 - The Case of The Falcon and The Winter Soldier
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- čas přidán 1. 01. 2022
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Episode info:
In this podcast episode we investigate the Disney+ series The Falcon and the Winter Soldier and discuss how the Marvel Cinematic Universe represents or misrepresents themes of racism, activist politics, masculinity, and male friendship. We also examine the show’s depiction of men in therapy. Host Jonathan McIntosh is joined by writer and filmmaker Imran Siddiquee for this conversation.
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Show credits:
Audio production: Jonathan McIntosh
Intro music: Simon Stålenhag
Outro music: Rick Lopez
What really gets me about that Isaiah statue scene is that Sam says "now they'll never forget what you did for this country." That is not what that statue is in the slightest, its not a monument to what Isaiah "did for this country" is a monument to what was done TO HIM by this country. Isaiah didn't make some grand sacrifice, he was tricked, brutalized, and forgotten. "This country" royally fucked him over. Can you imagine framing a memorial to black slaves in this kind of way? "Here we are remembering the great sacrifices that these people made for our country."
I really wished they'd focused on the therapy aspect more too. Is interesting that you mentioned "he could have gone each episode": there's a show that I think handles this really well (after starting out shaky ethically) in that the male protagonist has a therapist and a session each episode to unpack trauma and self loathing: Lucifer. I'd be interested in your take.
Lucifer was weirdly nuanced too: it showed how useless therapy is if you aren’t honest or willing to put in the work to change. It also showed how progress isn’t linear or steady (though that might have been more from the effects of the reality of how writing for ATV show works than planned) and that therapists are people too. For being a comic book action/comedy, the therapy and relationships were weirdly healthy.
I totally buy Sam and Bucky butting heads. They're both best friends with Steve... but 70 years apart. They're both grieving that loss and they can't share that grief because they don't know each other. Each views the other as an intruder in their own grief. Doesn't have to make sense, it's emotions. Also men aren't allowed to grieve. It's a whole thing.
Hi Jonathan, love your stuff, I've been binging these podcasts today and I've enjoyed them immensely! One thing I wanted to point out is that you use the phrase "At least bisexual" in regards to media not making characters gay, and it makes it sound like bisexuality is a lesser sexuality(gay lite) or something used as a compromise rather than its own complete identity with its own stereotypes and misconceptions.
It's a surprisingly common expression used when talking about these topics, I have unintentionally parroted it even as a bisexual myself, so I just wanted to put it out there as something to think about.
Hi there, you are absolutely right. I was not clear in my statement. I didn't mean "gay lite," I meant that from Disney’s POV they could still use their MCU women characters as love interests (in addition to men) since corporate media almost always wants to market to straight audiences even when it's a bisexual character, which is a sad and cowardly state of affairs on their part. Disney is a cynical company and always looking for ways to throw a bone to every demographic while taking as few risks as possible. Media absolutely needs gay, bisexual, asexual, and pansexual characters that are presented as distinct identities without apology. You are right that many people are very confused about bisexuality and my comment in the podcast could work to reinforce those myths. I'll be more careful with my word choice moving forward. Thanks for the heads up :)
The speech from Falcon at the end of the show was the most performative and hamfisted garbage I’ve ever seen in my life
When you guys talk about Isaiah saying that the hings having changed in a structural level and Sam says it have, after they leave his the police does its racism towards black people by stoping Sam and Bucky in the street, but only going to harass Sam like he was trying to do some "bad" thing against bucky a white man. So they confirmed Isaiah's point for a sec and then for the rest of the show makes Sam's point the right one...
As far as the killing goes with Bucky, there's a Canyons difference between being mind controlled to kill recklessly and killing those who threaten your life. So yeah, I do agree with most of what's said in this video especially in regards to Sam and Carly. But when it comes to Bucky, there's absolutely probable cause for PTSD related to controlled killings versus those you choose.
Thank you for pointing out everything that fell short in this show. Watching it made me feel like I was being gaslit into seeing this tepid attempt as genuinely progressive. You guys nailed it.
Some really interesting points. I had such mixed feelings about the show. It started out pretty strong but inevitably went astray in so many ways. I wish it didn't pick the themes it could not handle. One could make a whole series about all the things that went wrong in it. Apart from those you discussed, I was really bothered, for instance, by the way Bucky's intimate connection to Steve is treated like a weakness and his dark past is somehow treated as his own fault that he has to atone for, rather than a trauma he was subjected to. Even Sam basically tells him to stop brooding and get himself together.
This is pretty much the only time I’ve thought about this show since I finished watching it.
As an anarchist, I have to thank you for criticizing very accurately what's wrong with the Flag Smashers. Also, I'd really like to hear you talking about Aaron Sorkin and all this "depoliticized politics" scenario writing vibe
Well now I want to hear you talk about actual anarchism. Because you're right, what you're describing as these bad Hollywood representations is most of what I associate with anarchy, but your description of actual anarchist ideology reminds me a little of this faction from this one story, and now I'm curious to see how good of a representation it maybe is.
You are spot on as far as how things are handled. With Bucky I believe they were attempting to deal with the idea of agency. He was captured and made to do these things. As you point out, the issue was never killing as even the Disney-fied version of death happen excessively. It is likely tying right back into the same stereotypes as therapy, but the idea of agency especially for ex-soldiers of any kind would be an interesting topic to explore.
Some of the points made about the popular conception of heroism (specifically male heroism) made me consider that perhaps a look at Doctor Who as an example of alternative heroism would make for a good video. I am reminded of a "How it Should Have Ended" video where the Doctor sits with Batman and Superman in the end and they doubted the Doctor's heroism because of their (mostly) non violent methods (though I might be misremembering). Also comparing the Doctor's heroism across different decades and cultural contexts would be insightful for such a long running show.
I get your point about therapy and it definitely is not the best portrayal, but Sam is a trauma councler for veterans, so he has some therapeutic background. It's not just Bucky 'sharing with a buddy' but actually confiding in someone who has the training to help him. Anyway. Great show, thank you for sharing.
Glad you like the podcast :) One minor thing, Sam isn't really a trauma councilor for veterans, he runs a support group for veterans, which is an admirable thing to do but is different. He also gives terrible terrible advice to that group unfortunately.
@@PopCultureDetective haha ok - coming from Europe here, and I know anyone who runs any kind of trauma group needs professional training within the EU. I just thought it was the same way in the US. And regarding his terrible advice, I always just put that up to bad writing. Buckys therapist is an actual therapist and gives terrible advice as well. But anyway. I really like the podcast and can't wait to see you tackle season 2 of ted lasso 😊
The reason Sam and Bucky don't get on despite saving the world together is because their ex-boyfriend abandoned them both to run off and change the past by inserting himself into the life of a woman who had moved on.
(I'll be back with a real comment when I've listened the the whole thing lol, but also, you could probably make an entire podcast about that aspect of Endgame's ending alone lol)
I know Marvel properties are full of propaganda but I still manage to enjoy most. But I really disliked this Marvel show, I was shocked at messy, lazy, and blatant the military/ anti-resistant movements propaganda. I wish you all had more time to discuss the John Walker character and how he murdered and lied, tried to kill the protagonists, then was "redeemed" because he saved some senators. I gasped. And that horrible, child like speech Falcon gave was laughable. I prefer that they don't try to deal with black history of exploitation if they are going to do it this poorly.
What really upsets me is the mcu does so much weird cringey bs where like spiderman is the sidekick of a corporate ceo, falcon and winter soldier have this toxic relationship but this stuff is rarely in the source material
Thanks for this. So many things that you touched on which could have been podcasts in their own right.
I think your criticisms of the therapy are very valid, but also feel that the knowledge of the fandom played into that decision somewhat on the writers part.
It's been a huge thing within the marvel fandom for years about getting these characters therapy, because the fans genuinely want to see their faves heal from the trauma they have been through. Bucky very much has always been at the forefront of that due to his unique backstory.
But it felt very much like the writers didn't understand that true desire, so they just shoved him into therapy as a bit of fanservice. (which you then mentioned in the text topic of queer baiting)
Anyway, thanks for uploading these to youtube, I don't have Spotify so had no idea you were doing them and am very much looking forward to more regular content from you!
This is so insightful thank you !
Glad you liked the episode
Wow these videos get so much less views then your other videos... Did the algorithm change or something? Do people not see the video?
Since they are audio-only podcast episodes we decided not to send notifications to everyone's feeds like normal. The channel is still mostly for video essays but since so many people asked for the podcast to be re-uploaded here, we did it on the down-low
Excellent. Thank you
I tend to really enjoy Marvel projects as a way to sit back, turn off my brain, and watch some explosions. You know, popcorn flicks and such. But wow, this show baffled me. It tried to do WAAAAY too much with too little time. While WandaVision felt like a fully realized project, this felt like a complete scramble. Then I was like, "Oh, I'm on the Flag Smashers' side!" and the show tried to tell me they were wrong. Ummm... nope? The only part of the show I really enjoyed was Wyatt Russell's performance as John Walker. Wow, he did a great job with that severely damaged & terrifying character. People keep saying he got redeemed but I didn't think that was what was going on - just that he helped so they let him help. I find his character interesting. Everyone else was an underdeveloped mess or, in Isaiah's case, so terribly mishandled.
Watching this show at 20 years old had me worried about its impact on people watching it. Not only was the plot all over the place but its pseudo realism and relevance has a much larger influence than the traditional marvel movie. On top of that Marvel has strongly sided with one way of thinking which (as you said) is to maintain the status quo.
I couldn't finish watching the show. Ick. Thanks for this and helping me clarify why I quit (right after Carli became a mass murderer).
Please make the video about your last remarks. The “restraints of the superhero genre”.
excellent my friends
5:05 Sam runs support group for vets in Winter Soldier, Steve Rogers runs support group for leftovers in Endgame.
Support groups aren't therapy though. Sam also gives terrible terrible advise to his group.
What was his advice?
It was very bootstraps, just power through it etc
I personally really loved this series, but I really enjoyed you guys takes on it, it does have its flaws and needs improvements, though it’s still my favorite show 😊
The subtext is the "sacrifice of the warrior" where he doesn't share the horrible things he's done and seen, because he is the gunslinger "protecting" the innocent villagers from the horribleness of "harsh reality" it's a foundational myth of America.
Nando V movies really fixed this show in his flag-smashers video
Re: the flag smashers. Maybe that anonymous aggregated action is all that's possible when the surveillance state is so strong.
I actually liked the falcon series and loki very much because i already expected all sort of stuff and didnt have any sort of expectations that some people seem to have based on what ?
The Reality is that these series loki and the falcon are a big step into a more sophisticated universe. And i actually was very interested when i first saw the trailer and stuff on youtube, but was put off for some time because of the reviews and videos about it in connection with US militarism,etc.. At the end i watched it and enjoyed it very much. Maybe it was the time i watched it. Either way i would recommend anyone to watch the stuff that peaks your interest. THe problem that emerges somewhat from this typ of videos, reviews critizing is that you feel the need to canceal one of the most important things as a human. Curosity, it is important to see the ideas behind the media you consume, but like any idea it will influence your ideas and often will hidder your curosity. Though it may be silly , there are also other ideas at play to the end of sam. Like Sam deciding his own path and trying to be the thing nobod wants him to be. The thing his friend saw in him. And to actually not just shut up, but tell infront of the whole world that he does not agree with the suits plans and questions their position and stance must be worth something...
The fact that Captain america actually now is a combination of Wakanding technology remaking his old self as Falcon and the torch of his friend and supposed incorruptible character cap., that actually makes a statment to change the world must be worth something.
There many things to critize about a movie or a series,but the reality is that everybody takes different things from it and i cant end to wonder if it isnt a mirror of ourself after all.
At the end of the day it is a piece of media, why so serious ? xd
It just shapes the people for our white world order whahuauhauhaha
I feel like there is some form of toxical dismissal and also some form of toxic arrogance when we speak about problems of main stream media and the things people like. Maybe it is just me...xd
I mean maybe there should be an debate about stuff in main stream media xd. But lets be honest how many people watch Marvel cinema for advice of how to be a better man or how to treat women or how to be mindfull to any topic. It like it somewhat fuctions as an excuse to why people do stuff. Certainly mass media projecting questionable conducts of people will not help to world and certainly will have an impact on people, no doubt about that. But that is the reason we need people to get educated to be mindfull of the media they consume.
After all we are in a age where it is easier than ever before to make a movie and share it with many people. The concept of movies you have to see in connection with the mass advertisment and nostalgia selling is a big questionmark here though. But i feel like there is also a topic about lets destroy other people experience, because we know about the questionable ideas in these movies and that also is a power by itself. Anyway, this reminds me about when teenager , kids realize that the world is a shit place and go around doing stuff, getting frustrated and telling everybody about their big discovery about this and that. The reality is that most people actually know about this and that, either forgot about it are trying to survive, know "nothing will change " or whatever. In a sense this is the same, different people will realize this and that in the movies, but will move on... Life is to short to question everything and stay on it for ever?
What i mean is most people are not as ignorant as they seem or play... They know...
STOP BLOWING MY MIND