LDS Bishop Leaves Because of CES Letter? - Jack Reacts
Vložit
- čas přidán 3. 01. 2024
- LINK TO ENTER GIVEAWAY:
Patreon - / thestickofjoseph
Get a copy of The Annotated Book of Mormon Using code THESTICKOFJOSEPH for 15% off:
www.digitalegend.com/products...
In this episode of Jack Reacts, he watched a video from @mormonstories where an LDS bishop leaves the church after reading the CES Letter.
Like, subscribe and follow us on Instagram under the handle of @thestickofjoseph
#jesus #christ #jesuschrist #bookofmormon #mormon #thechurchofjesuschristoflatterdaysaints #lds #scriptures #bookofmormonevidences #bookofmormonarchaeology #archaeology #stickofjoseph #thestickofjoseph #lehi #nephi #sariah #laman #lemuel #josephsmith #laban #sword #swordoflaban #waynemay #bookofmormongeography #bookofmormoncentral #bookofmormonstories #heartland #heartlandtheory #hopewell #mounds #moundbuilders #hopewellmoundbuilders #adena #smithsonian #mesoamerica #maya #mayan #decendinggod #god #faith #resurrection #christian #ancient #ancienthistory #ancientcivilizations #amazon #seerstone #urimandthummim #CES #cesletter #thecesletter
I haven't watched a lot of responses to those who leave due to the CES Letter. I have family that have been affected by the letter. I have been a daily reader of the Scriptures for several decades. I have also been a Bishop in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints along with other positions of leadership. I mention this only to give some context to the Bishop brother who lost his testimony in one morning of one reading. That is so revealing. I feel that I have an intimate relationship with the Book of Mormon. My life is what it is because of that great book. Without it, I don't become. I have been filled with the Spirit of Chirst on numerous occations that throw me to my knees with a desire to repent and change. On numerous occasions I have had in Enos's words, "my guilt swept away." If Satan is attempting to decieve the nations and lead them away from Christ through the Book of Mormon, he is doing a very poor job of it. I have read the entire cannon and many books several times. The light and truth that has flowed into my life and the resulting improvement in my behavior into a more Christlike being is real. I am a witness. There is a reason why two people's stories are in the book. Sharem and Korihor. Within those examples is the pattern of apostates. They are there that we might detect how they were deceived and how they went about decieving others. The pattern is real and foolproof. The Lord has given us a pattern in all things. My invitation to you is to study them, pull the patterns out and then apply them to the author of the CES letter and other dissenters. Dissenters are and have been, unfortunately, very effective in leading others astray throughout history. The damage they caused in the Book of Mormon is extensive. Lastly... Priesthood. If I were to leave this church, on my way out I would have to reject what I have personally witnessed and participated in while being blessed and blessing others by it. What I have seen, I have seen. What I have participated in I have participated in. It is real. I witness that the Priesthood of Almighty God is with this Church and continues to move it through the storm. My plea is to hold on tight. Stay with the Brethren. Follow their prophetic counsel. Stand in Holy places. Make your heart and home one of them through daily repentance and feasting upon the word of God. Jesus is the Christ, the God of the whole earth, and we must come unto Him or we cannot be saved. He is the way, the truth, and the life, as He declared.
Thank you so much for bearing your beautiful witness of the scriptures and of a life filled with devotion to turning to Christ.
@@AngelPuff1012 thank YOU! “ Shall we not go on in so great a cause!” Arm in arm let us allow our consecrated lives to be our final witness of Jesus The Christ that He is Gods Son.
As a convert, I dedicated two years to thoroughly investigating the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, with the sole purpose of establishing a strong basis for my faith in my Savior, Jesus Christ. I became a member in 2012 and I have numerous inquiries and experiences that have led me to contemplate leaving the church. Nevertheless, because of my personal testimony and The Book of Mormon, I am unable to refute the truth. Satan is a liar. Therefore, never succumb or abandon your efforts when confronted with challenges on your path as a member. Always recall your first testimony that confirms the authenticity of this church.
I KNOW the Church is true. When I prayed about it, I heard a voice that called me by name and told me 'you know it's true. Get up.'
I know that God loves his daughters who love him. I was depressed one day and He sent me a rainbow to cheer me up.
Uh huh sure sure
Whether you and your brother realize it or not, you are leaving a legacy for your children to learn from and grow from. This is a video record that they will one day, hopefully, cherish. Sharing your testimony with them, and strengthening the testimony of others at the same time. Wonderful! Carry on!
There is no place on earth that fits the BOM because it is not true. Thankfully, there is truth found in the Bible and the eternal, all powerful, perfect, only true God can be found in it.
There is NO archaeological, anthropological, topological, linguistic, botanical or dna evidence to support the Book of Mormon. LDS anthropologist Dee Green: “The first myth we need to eliminate is that BOM archaeology exists” conceding 20 years of research “left us empty-handed” (Green 1969 p. 77)
NO trace of Jewish dna found in any Indian burial ground anywhere in the Americas from time period of BOM. Thomas W. Murphy, (Mormon scholar, DNA researcher):“We are in a dilemma, the genetic evidence shows that American Indians are not Hebrews, they are not Israelites. The Book of Mormon is not true.” John Whitmer Historical Association Journal 2005
IS THE GOD OF THE BOOK OF MORMON THE SAME ONE AS IN THE BIBLE? NO! In the LDS Church’s 147th Conf., Gen Authority Bernard P. Brockbank said: the Christ followed by Mormons is NOT THE CHRIST followed by traditional Christianity. (Ensign, May 1977 p. 26)
"Before me NO god was formed, nor shall there be ANY after me.” (Isaiah 43:10) If Mormonism is true, then God could not make this claim, for he was just a man at one point; nor could he claim that no gods would come after him, for that is the goal of LDS members.
Like Joseph Smith, this was the goal of Satan, to be like God and have worshipers. "I will exalt my throne above the stars of God ... I will be like the Most High”’ (Isaiah 14:12-14)
NO truth: Book of Abraham published with 3 facsimiles taken from an ancient papyrus. The book is a funerary papyrus showing scenes from the Egyptian Book of the Dead. In Facsimiles Nos. 1 & 3, Smith misidentifies everything depicted. "LDS and non-LDS Egyptologists agree that the characters on the fragments do not match the translation given in the book of Abraham" Quote from LDS OFFICIAL WEB PAGE
NO trace of the “Two million Jaredites slain” (Ether 15:2), with iron, brass, breast-plates, shields, and armor. It would be impossible for these millions of dead warriors in armor to leave no trace.
NO trace of the great city Zarahemla- it would be impossible for a city the size of Zarahemla (Alma 5:2; D&C 125:3) to leave no trace.
NO temple like Solomon's described in 2 Nephi 5:16 has ever been found yet biblical temple is easily seen in Jerusalem. If the temple Nephi describes ever existed it could not disappear.
NO Nephite "reformed Egyptian" writings ever found anywhere as it is not a real language anywhere in the world.
NO cities mentioned in the BOM have ever been located (none of 38) anywhere. It would be impossible for them to disappear unless they never existed.
NO evidence: "The whole land was covered with buildings, and the people were as numerous, as it were the sand of the sea." Yet not one ever located. (Mormon 1:7) IMPOSSIBLE for highly advanced civilizations (Jaredites, Nephites) & MILLIONS of people to have vanished.
The BOM speaks of sheep, swine, silk, wool clothing & elephants existing in the Americas when they did not. 1 Ne.13:7; Alma 4:6; Ether 9:17 and 10:24 These were brought to America centuries later by Europeans.
NO wheat, no goats, no metal smelting furnaces, no metal armor, no steel swords, no cattle, no chariot parts, no brass (Mosiah 8:10) no evidence of the listed Kings in BOM, no Jewish relics or Jewish Temples from supposed Jews, no metal plates like Nephites supposedly used, no middle eastern seeds growing, "which were brought from the land of Jerusalem ... and grew exceedingly" 1 Nephi 18:24
CAN WE IGNORE THE LACK OF EVIDENCE FOR THE THE BOOK OF MORMON AND JUST TRUST OUR HEARTS AS TO THE TRUTH OF IT EVEN THOUGH IT CONFLICTS WITH THE BIBLE? NO!
D&C Section 9:8-9 - tell us that if something is true it will make our "bosom burn" and we will FEEL that it is right. Maroni 10:4 says: "he will manifest the truth of it unto you"
The Bible warns us against this subjective type of truth test. Why? Because we have a sinful nature that can be deceived. Proverbs 28:26 "He that trusts in his own (bosom) heart is a FOOL."
The Scriptures, however, are infallible and can never be wrong (John 17:17; Psalm 119:128; 33:4; 19:8; Romans 3:4).
This is why the Bible frequently urges us to study and meditate on God's word. 2 Timothy 2:15 KJV "STUDY ... rightly dividing the word of TRUTH." Acts 17:11 "EXAMINE THE SCRIPTURES to see if what said is TRUE". 1John 4:1 says: "BELIEVE NOT EVERY SPIRIT, ... because MANY FALSE PROPHETS have gone out into the world."
Mormonism claims the bible was corrupted to justify Joseph Smith's changing of the biblical, eternal God into an evolving, created god, who is not all powerful and is one of an endless number of gods . However, this is a PROVABLY FALSE claim.
The Claim: In the BOM, the prophet Nephi has a vision the Bible was corrupted and "plain and precious parts" were removed after the 12 apostles and after the formation of the “great and abominable church” (1 Nephi 13:26-29). Most Mormons believe this is the Catholic Church formed in the 4th century. Nephi claims this church was founded by the Devil (1 Nephi 14:3). So let’s objectively examine the Bible & BOM.
BIBLE: The Dead Sea Scrolls have been dated to as early as 350 BC. One is the Great Isaiah Scroll, which is the oldest known copy of the Book of Isaiah dated to 180 BC.
Do ANY ancient scrolls show Smith's "uncorrupted" version of scripture? NO! Yet they would if the scripture was later corrupted after the 12 apostles died as Smith and Nephi said.
Also, if they had been corrupted, Jesus would have corrected scripture instead of affirming it! Jesus sd:“ I told you EVERYTHING written about me in the Law of Moses, the Books of the Prophets, and in the Psalms had to happen.” (Luke 24:44-46)
Scripture is the same today as it was 2,100+ years ago with only minor spelling and punctuation differences. Joseph Smith was wrong. These scrolls pre-dated Catholics, and are Jewish scrolls and the BOM says the Jews had the Scriptures in their "purity". 1Nephi 13:25
LDS Apologist Wayne Ham admitted the Isaiah scroll does not support the the BOM. Apologist Dr. Sidney B. Sperry, of BYU, said the Dead Sea Scrolls do not help the case for the BOM. BYU Professor Joseph F. McConkie: "Rather than Joseph Smith as Found in Ancient Manuscripts, it ought be Joseph Smith as Lost in Ancient Manuscripts.” (Religious Studies Center, 1984)
The new testament has not been corrupted either. See the book of John. Smith changed it to make Jesus a created being. Research a 1900 year old papyri known as the Bodmer Papyri of the book of John. (written 150 AD, around the Apostle John's time)
John 1:1 "In the BEGINNING was the WORD and the WORD was WITH God and the WORD WAS God." ΕΝ ΑΡΧΗ ΗΝ Ο ΛΟΓΟΣ ΚΑΙ Ο ΛΟΓΟΣ ΗΝ ΠΡΟΣ ΤΟΝ ΘΕΟΝ ΚΑΙ ΘΕΟΣ ΗΝ Ο ΛΟΓΟΣ (look up this ancient Greek yourself on google)
John 1:1 Joseph Smith translation: "In the beginning was the GOSPEL preached through the Son. And the GOSPEL was the word, and the word was with the Son, and the Son was with God, and the Son was of God." Smith's Jesus is no longer God in the flesh but the biblical Jesus is: "God was manifest in the flesh" 1Tim. 3:16 KJV
There are 4,000 Greek manuscripts of the New Testament. Some go back to 350 AD and NONE support Joseph Smith's claims that the bible of today has been corrupted.
Papyrus fragments exist of the New Testament dated to 175 AD and show that the new testament has NOT been "corrupted". (New Testament Docs: Are They Reliable? Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1967 pp. 15-17)
The manuscript and archeological evidence for the BIBLE is the GREATEST in antiquity. I pray you know the true Jesus and not Joseph Smith's exalted man from another planet who is not eternal, not all powerful, not perfect but evolving, and was polygamous.
God is much greater than the humanoid of Mormonism and NOT just ONE OF AN ENDLESS NUMBER OF EVOLVING GODS.
Jesus said ALL scripture will NOT fade away but "many wolves in sheep's clothing" will come trying to add to the word. Mathew 7:15 Joseph Smith changed Jesus, the Father and taught you can become a GOD.
It hurts my heart to see Mormons fall for the lie that we can become God when there is only one eternal God found in the bible.
"The only men who become Gods, even the sons of Gods are those that enter into polygamy." (Brigham Young) Journal of Discourses 11 p.269
Apostle Orson Pratt, in The Seer, page 172, “the great Messiah who was the founder of the Christian religion was a Polygamist…the Messiah chose to take upon himself his seed; and by marrying many wives, … The son followed the example of his Father"
God gave us critical thinking & logical reasoning for a reason, which is why he does tell us to EXAMINE and TEST what we are being taught for TRUTH. The bible withstands the truth test. Joseph Smith's version fails the truth test. It's your eternity, study it for yourself. God bless.
Telestial Smoothie vs Eternal Wiener Doctrine ---- still trying to find the answers to mormonism's persistent questions.
Wow I was just thinking the other day that a CZcams channel like this would be really necessary. Opposition in all things. Cool to see a CZcams channel that is getting a positive faith driven perspective out there. Keep it up!
There are several good channels I know of. David Alexander. We are doing one ourselves too called Catch the Buzz ;) We're about Faith , fun and family 😊
Spoiler: if you haven't read the Book of Mormon you can't make sweeping claims that it's not true. Read it first to know for sure
Are you saying you think the guy in the video hasn't read the BoM?
He might not have. Do you know for sure?
Lots of missionaries and people in leadership think it’s okay to read the highlights from seminary. They have never trusted in the promise at the end.
People are lazy. Sad but true
“LDS Bishop” in the title. I think he’s probably read it several times
@@pv3627you assume…there’s no reading prerequisite to being a bishop
I read parts of the CES letter as a teen, and I distinctly remember reading their claim that the BoM was false because it mentioned goats and there aren't goats native to the America's. I loved learning about animals growing up, and on hikes in Utah (where I live) I had seen mountain goats and knew they lived around here natively. So, once I saw their claim that there were no goats in the America's, I immediately dismissed the rest of the letter and didn't read on because it was so blatantly false that I couldn't trust anything else they said. I've heard that the CES letter has gone through many edits, so it's entirely possible they took out their claim about goats. I haven't read it since. But I do know people in my life who have stepped away from the gospel citing the letter as a key reason, and I'll be totally honest, it's hard to have respect for their decision when I know how blatantly false and ridiculous I found it to be when I read it.
The letter is garbage; the author disingenuous, IMO. Thanks
@@jordan-xe2yb I agree. I've always found some of their criticisms funny and hypocritical. For example, if I recall correctly, they criticized the Book of Mormon for minor edits since it's original print. Yet, I've heard the CES letter has been edited many, many times. It does sadden me though that it does have an impact on people's testimonies. I'm thankful it didn't shake mine and I could see it for what it was, but I've seen friends and family fall for it.
God bless you brother
you should google anachronisms in the BOM, there's more than just goats. You need to think of pre-Columbus on this one brother
There is no place on earth that fits the BOM because it is not true. Thankfully, there is truth found in the Bible and the eternal, all powerful, perfect, only true God can be found in it.
There is NO archaeological, anthropological, topological, linguistic, botanical or dna evidence to support the Book of Mormon. LDS anthropologist Dee Green: “The first myth we need to eliminate is that BOM archaeology exists” conceding 20 years of research “left us empty-handed” (Green 1969 p. 77)
NO trace of Jewish dna found in any Indian burial ground anywhere in the Americas from time period of BOM. Thomas W. Murphy, (Mormon scholar, DNA researcher):“We are in a dilemma, the genetic evidence shows that American Indians are not Hebrews, they are not Israelites. The Book of Mormon is not true.” John Whitmer Historical Association Journal 2005
IS THE GOD OF THE BOOK OF MORMON THE SAME ONE AS IN THE BIBLE? NO! In the LDS Church’s 147th Conf., Gen Authority Bernard P. Brockbank said: the Christ followed by Mormons is NOT THE CHRIST followed by traditional Christianity. (Ensign, May 1977 p. 26)
"Before me NO god was formed, nor shall there be ANY after me.” (Isaiah 43:10) If Mormonism is true, then God could not make this claim, for he was just a man at one point; nor could he claim that no gods would come after him, for that is the goal of LDS members.
Like Joseph Smith, this was the goal of Satan, to be like God and have worshipers. "I will exalt my throne above the stars of God ... I will be like the Most High”’ (Isaiah 14:12-14)
NO truth: Book of Abraham published with 3 facsimiles taken from an ancient papyrus. The book is a funerary papyrus showing scenes from the Egyptian Book of the Dead. In Facsimiles Nos. 1 & 3, Smith misidentifies everything depicted. "LDS and non-LDS Egyptologists agree that the characters on the fragments do not match the translation given in the book of Abraham" Quote from LDS OFFICIAL WEB PAGE
NO trace of the “Two million Jaredites slain” (Ether 15:2), with iron, brass, breast-plates, shields, and armor. It would be impossible for these millions of dead warriors in armor to leave no trace.
NO trace of the great city Zarahemla- it would be impossible for a city the size of Zarahemla (Alma 5:2; D&C 125:3) to leave no trace.
NO temple like Solomon's described in 2 Nephi 5:16 has ever been found yet biblical temple is easily seen in Jerusalem. If the temple Nephi describes ever existed it could not disappear.
NO Nephite "reformed Egyptian" writings ever found anywhere as it is not a real language anywhere in the world.
NO cities mentioned in the BOM have ever been located (none of 38) anywhere. It would be impossible for them to disappear unless they never existed.
NO evidence: "The whole land was covered with buildings, and the people were as numerous, as it were the sand of the sea." Yet not one ever located. (Mormon 1:7) IMPOSSIBLE for highly advanced civilizations (Jaredites, Nephites) & MILLIONS of people to have vanished.
The BOM speaks of sheep, swine, silk, wool clothing & elephants existing in the Americas when they did not. 1 Ne.13:7; Alma 4:6; Ether 9:17 and 10:24 These were brought to America centuries later by Europeans.
NO wheat, no goats, no metal smelting furnaces, no metal armor, no steel swords, no cattle, no chariot parts, no brass (Mosiah 8:10) no evidence of the listed Kings in BOM, no Jewish relics or Jewish Temples from supposed Jews, no metal plates like Nephites supposedly used, no middle eastern seeds growing, "which were brought from the land of Jerusalem ... and grew exceedingly" 1 Nephi 18:24
CAN WE IGNORE THE LACK OF EVIDENCE FOR THE THE BOOK OF MORMON AND JUST TRUST OUR HEARTS AS TO THE TRUTH OF IT EVEN THOUGH IT CONFLICTS WITH THE BIBLE? NO!
D&C Section 9:8-9 - tell us that if something is true it will make our "bosom burn" and we will FEEL that it is right. Maroni 10:4 says: "he will manifest the truth of it unto you"
The Bible warns us against this subjective type of truth test. Why? Because we have a sinful nature that can be deceived. Proverbs 28:26 "He that trusts in his own (bosom) heart is a FOOL."
The Scriptures, however, are infallible and can never be wrong (John 17:17; Psalm 119:128; 33:4; 19:8; Romans 3:4).
This is why the Bible frequently urges us to study and meditate on God's word. 2 Timothy 2:15 KJV "STUDY ... rightly dividing the word of TRUTH." Acts 17:11 "EXAMINE THE SCRIPTURES to see if what said is TRUE". 1John 4:1 says: "BELIEVE NOT EVERY SPIRIT, ... because MANY FALSE PROPHETS have gone out into the world."
Mormonism claims the bible was corrupted to justify Joseph Smith's changing of the biblical, eternal God into an evolving, created god, who is not all powerful and is one of an endless number of gods . However, this is a PROVABLY FALSE claim.
The Claim: In the BOM, the prophet Nephi has a vision the Bible was corrupted and "plain and precious parts" were removed after the 12 apostles and after the formation of the “great and abominable church” (1 Nephi 13:26-29). Most Mormons believe this is the Catholic Church formed in the 4th century. Nephi claims this church was founded by the Devil (1 Nephi 14:3). So let’s objectively examine the Bible & BOM.
BIBLE: The Dead Sea Scrolls have been dated to as early as 350 BC. One is the Great Isaiah Scroll, which is the oldest known copy of the Book of Isaiah dated to 180 BC.
Do ANY ancient scrolls show Smith's "uncorrupted" version of scripture? NO! Yet they would if the scripture was later corrupted after the 12 apostles died as Smith and Nephi said.
Also, if they had been corrupted, Jesus would have corrected scripture instead of affirming it! Jesus sd:“ I told you EVERYTHING written about me in the Law of Moses, the Books of the Prophets, and in the Psalms had to happen.” (Luke 24:44-46)
Scripture is the same today as it was 2,100+ years ago with only minor spelling and punctuation differences. Joseph Smith was wrong. These scrolls pre-dated Catholics, and are Jewish scrolls and the BOM says the Jews had the Scriptures in their "purity". 1Nephi 13:25
LDS Apologist Wayne Ham admitted the Isaiah scroll does not support the the BOM. Apologist Dr. Sidney B. Sperry, of BYU, said the Dead Sea Scrolls do not help the case for the BOM. BYU Professor Joseph F. McConkie: "Rather than Joseph Smith as Found in Ancient Manuscripts, it ought be Joseph Smith as Lost in Ancient Manuscripts.” (Religious Studies Center, 1984)
The new testament has not been corrupted either. See the book of John. Smith changed it to make Jesus a created being. Research a 1900 year old papyri known as the Bodmer Papyri of the book of John. (written 150 AD, around the Apostle John's time)
John 1:1 "In the BEGINNING was the WORD and the WORD was WITH God and the WORD WAS God." ΕΝ ΑΡΧΗ ΗΝ Ο ΛΟΓΟΣ ΚΑΙ Ο ΛΟΓΟΣ ΗΝ ΠΡΟΣ ΤΟΝ ΘΕΟΝ ΚΑΙ ΘΕΟΣ ΗΝ Ο ΛΟΓΟΣ (look up this ancient Greek yourself on google)
John 1:1 Joseph Smith translation: "In the beginning was the GOSPEL preached through the Son. And the GOSPEL was the word, and the word was with the Son, and the Son was with God, and the Son was of God." Smith's Jesus is no longer God in the flesh but the biblical Jesus is: "God was manifest in the flesh" 1Tim. 3:16 KJV
There are 4,000 Greek manuscripts of the New Testament. Some go back to 350 AD and NONE support Joseph Smith's claims that the bible of today has been corrupted.
Papyrus fragments exist of the New Testament dated to 175 AD and show that the new testament has NOT been "corrupted". (New Testament Docs: Are They Reliable? Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1967 pp. 15-17)
The manuscript and archeological evidence for the BIBLE is the GREATEST in antiquity. I pray you know the true Jesus and not Joseph Smith's exalted man from another planet who is not eternal, not all powerful, not perfect but evolving, and was polygamous.
God is much greater than the humanoid of Mormonism and NOT just ONE OF AN ENDLESS NUMBER OF EVOLVING GODS.
Jesus said ALL scripture will NOT fade away but "many wolves in sheep's clothing" will come trying to add to the word. Mathew 7:15 Joseph Smith changed Jesus, the Father and taught you can become a GOD.
It hurts my heart to see Mormons fall for the lie that we can become God when there is only one eternal God found in the bible.
"The only men who become Gods, even the sons of Gods are those that enter into polygamy." (Brigham Young) Journal of Discourses 11 p.269
Apostle Orson Pratt, in The Seer, page 172, “the great Messiah who was the founder of the Christian religion was a Polygamist…the Messiah chose to take upon himself his seed; and by marrying many wives, … The son followed the example of his Father"
God gave us critical thinking & logical reasoning for a reason, which is why he does tell us to EXAMINE and TEST what we are being taught for TRUTH. The bible withstands the truth test. Joseph Smith's version fails the truth test. It's your eternity, study it for yourself. God bless.
I seriously feel sad for this Bishop. He was honestly trying to find a reason to leave. He made a choice long before the CES letter. So Sad!!!
Facts!!! 🔥🔥
As someone who "left" I get frustrated by people jumping to conclusions like "they never had a true testimony" or "they were looking for reasons to leave" etc. it took years of study, trying to find answers, wanting with all my heart to believe and when I concluded it was not true, it broke my heart. Everything I "knew" was now broken. It took years to heal from that because of the indoctrination and culture I had been part of. Now I'm years out, I look back grateful for what I learnt when I was Mormon but now with a much wider perspective and love for the world, God and all his religions and people. This is my true happiness now, with no judgement for people who don't agree with my beliefs.
@@benkenlaude3301 testimony is like a fire... If you don't keep building it or adding wood to it, it will go out. You can have a blazing flame but not working on it and it will go out no matter what religion you are. It's hard to be a Christian these days but we know the promise in the end so it's worth it. If I can ask what broke the camels back?
@@benkenlaude3301what indoctrination? faith, repentance, baptism, gift of Holy Ghost, eternal increase?
@@jordan-xe2ybtrue that wording is in poor taste however be careful not to jump into the mud just to alienate him. I’m a member who has a similar stance to him. Except I do believe in prophets and the like. I recommend reading Alan Watts or Manly P. Hall.
I had the thought once that it’s floating in the air because you can never actually get what is offered there if you leave the path you’ll just wander off into the darkness and drown.
I really like the idea that it has no foundation though. Because Zion is always described as a city that has foundations.
I like that thought! Thank you for sharing!
Really loved your sincerity on this one Jack - many good points shared. It is a choice.
Thank you guys for addressing these thing head-on, in such a way that is respectful yet bold and firm. Thank you for your voice and for helping to inspire me to use mine! Just started my channel and it feels gooooood to stand up for Christ! ❤🙏🔥
christ has nothing do lds lol next tell me jesus is mormon
@@xaverrogers4910 What’s in a name? The Church of JESUS CHRIST of Latter-Day Saints. 🤷♂️
Have you read the CES letter in full? I only ask because mormons say to read the entire book of mormon before making a decision on whether or not it's true. Do mormons give the same fairness to the ces letter? I typically hear mormons only glance at it or read one thing and put it down. Seems disingenuous.
When first came across so called "facts" that called into question my faith, I prayer through the night and continued to pray until I felt heavenly Father must have heard me by now! In the early hours of the morning I received very strong confirmation of the book of Mormon and the restoration.
I was hearing all these people were leaving because of it and I thought…what could possibly be in there that would cause active people to just leave after reading this letter. So I read it, well most of it. Wow! I don’t even have words for people that lose their faith after reading this letter. Lies mingled with elements of truth. Didn’t even have to read to the end to figure that out. I have a sure foundation rooted in the testimony of CHRIST. Fruits of the spirit are precious to me. The more my testimony grows, the more golden threads of truth I discover. Be ye not deceived as this is the great time of deception. Keep your focus on Christ alone!
Maybe you should read the full thing before you speak on it though?
I know what it feels like to hear one side, think it's convincing, then hear the other side and then think THAT'S convincing. I believe there's just information and once we research that information, the spirit can help us discern truth. Of course the bias of the carrier of information can greatly affect the lense we use to look at the information, but at the end of the day information is information and we can only look at it and discern.
I think you hit the nail on the head. People will read information such as the CES letter and just take it for what it is because they used familiar terms. They don't call him the cunning one for nothing.
While that may be the case for some people, I don’t think that was the case here. For full context see his Mormon Story Episode 1790, then make a more informed judgement
@@pv3627make a judgement with information given by someone who was forced out of the church? Nah! I don’t think so.
@@Famr4evrthe “info” is the former bishop telling his story. Who cares what john dehlin says?
The cunning one? You obviously don't know very much about the CES letter. The CES letter is a list of sincere questions made to the president of the church education system. It's not an anti Mormon sermon trying to drag people away from the Church. The questions in the letter are what all LDS members should be asking. The reason it hurts people's testimonies is because there are no answers to these questions. Read the questions and then read the church's apologetic response and then make an informed decision on your own conclusion about the church.
@@darrencollinwood142i think some people barely scratch the surface of the CES letter or rely on a few reaction videos, and then think they can speak as if they’ve actually read it
If this Bishop left because of the CES letter, then I would question if he ever had a true testimony of the Book of Mormon in the first place.
I once had a "true testimony" if such a thing exists. I believed and gave every spare minute to the church and study. That then caught up with me when answers were that the church was false. Don't make assumptions and judge people based on your biases.
@@benkenlaude3301theres no biases mate. Ive been excommed, right after my mission too. I know what path youre on right now buddy and let me tell you now youll find the truth in the church again no doubt about it. Everyone will soon, i know the largest kingdom in heaven will be the celestial. Such is Gods mercy and love for his children, his plan is perfect. Feel sorry for you tbh brother but you got your choice. The church is true and to know that is not being biased or making assumptions its just the truth plain and simple made manifest through the Spirit. Where is the bias in that? David is right, those that lack faith fall away. Sorry if that offends you but its the truth. You simply lack faith, so does this bishop. Sugar coating that helps absolutely nobody and in fact obscures that humbling light. I got high hopes for you over the coming years, Christ ain’t far away
@benkenlaude3301 If you left the church, why are you in the comments attacking people for pointing out the their opinion on the matter. Seems like you still want to believe but you may have to much wordly influence blurry your vision. If you have questions on the matter ask them here, I'm sure people would love to answer them or if you have enough faith ask Heavenly Father and he will reveal the truth to you in his own way
The majority of allegations made in the CES should be common knowledge unless you've been hiding under a rock your entire life. Even with the other ones, I am not sure they a reason to leave the church. Read Jim Bennett's response to the CES letter where he debunks the claims made by the author.
@@user-og2wt3le4jis it common knowledge that Joseph smith was a scryer before he began the church? Is it common knowledge that he used seer stones to translate the Book of Mormon? Is it common knowledge that the book of Abraham is completely wrong? Is it common knowledge that Joseph smith married other men’s wives behind Emma’s back? I don’t remember ever hearing that in primary, seminary, mission, institute or Sunday school.
No one loses their faith because of the CES letter. The letter is only an excuse people use
As a Latter Day Saint myself, I agree that that is the case most of the times I’ve seen. I would disagree that it’s never the only reason though 🤷♂️ I think that there are some valid concerns it presents, even if most of the claims are dramatized at best. But I see what you’re saying.
I lost my faith because the church was racist, is still homophobic, sexist and asks poor members to pay to add to the $150,000,000,000 cash fund. Church history from the gospel library made me ask serious questions, the CES letter echoes a lot of my concerns. I don't believe in a racist, sexist, homophobic, bigoted god. I believe in a loving God.
I think you can maintain your own faith without making sweeping judgments about other people in an attempt to justify your own beliefs. While yes there are some people who leave the Church over “a cup of sugar” there are also countless people who leave because there are glaring issues with nearly every aspect of the Church’s history and when extremely devoted people find these truths out it is violating and shocking. The Church’s own internal research shows the number one reason people leave is because they felt lied to- which they were. The Church has hidden and been deceptive on numerous aspects of its history. This is just factual - happy to list them out if you want. But to some people this deception is crippling to their testimony. For others, they are able to justify it and maintain a testimony. I completely understand those who end up with a crippled testimony from learning these things. I also understand those who maintain theirs. I don’t need to make sweeping judgments or generalizations about either in order to justify my beliefs. This bishop here - I actually watched his entire 3+ hour interview and it paints a very different story than just a picture of someone looking for a reason to leave. I’d suggest actually watching his entire interview before making rush judgments in an attempt to protect your belief system.
8:19 The words " it's a choice to believe" triggered a memory when as a non-member I asked God if I "should join this Church?"
The thought that immediately entered my mind was "You decide"
It's what agency is.
That's what is entirely amazing about this church nothing is forced on you, everything is up to your own discernment.
The Holy Ghost will bless you with the ability to discern truth and lies.
With help of the Holy Ghost, it will help you figure that out.
The voice that you heard that said You Decide was the Holy Ghost
I only joined because God told me it was true
I've been a member almost 50 years. Over the years I learned a lot of doctrine that seemed foreign to me. Actually strange and unsettling.
I knew the Holy Ghost and knew the Book of Mormon to be of God and of no other source.
That book was and is my anchor. Actually, Jesus is my anchor. I am so thankful of his long suffering, tender mercy, and loving kindness. Thank you Jesus for loving me, all of us. In the name of Jesus Christ Amen.
I’m stoked that there are members like you guys, that have taken a stand, created a channel to defend the church and the gospel.
Thank you for the time you guys put into doing this!
I’d love to talk with you about some things on my mind, especially about making my faith as strong as yours. I grew up in Utah and having known, seen and engaged with many missionaries, I can tell that you guys have served one. I believe it’s one of my gifts of discernment. I can’t always tell but it’s definitely something that I have used in my life.
Anyways, if you’re reading this, thank you 🙏.
I believe that social media on my phone has taken over my life. I can get into it more but I was wondering what you think about trying to make someone’s phone life, free of spiritual distractions. Kinda like how someone made the company Clean Flicks; where they edited out the bad stuff and made them watchable for christians, but now for phones, computers, media ect.
Would you help me do this?
Send us a DM on Insta!! @thestickofjoseph
@@thestickofjoseph I definitely will! Probably sometime tomorrow or Sunday; feel free to respond whenever, I understand you guys are busy.
@@AndrewGiles688 Actually I never said anything close to a missionary being better than anyone else. I’m really sorry you feel that way, but that’s on you. It seems like you have some issues with self esteem; I never served either and cannot relate to the situation you described. Everyone has different experiences and opinions about the church and deal with them differently.
Aaron Forsyth here, just subscribed lehi status! Cant wait to keep watching and listening to all your content! You guys are by far my favorite CZcams channel. Modern day discussions. Love it
Dude! It is good to have you brother!!! We appreciate your support.
When I read or hear things that attack my faith, I go back and read the BofM or the words of modern prophets and peace washes over me. I know I'm in the right place.
Spoiler: The Book of Mormon is a keystone of truth. It should be read with a humble heart. Pray on it and you will receive an answer. Sometimes answers come as a feeling. You will discover answers to some of your deepest questions and be better off.
James 1:5, it says WISDOM, not knowledge. Feelings are a terrible way to confirm truth since 10 different people can have 10 different answers.
@@dr33776 thanks for clarifying that.
@@dr33776 Well but I'm not just using feelings to confirm the truth, feeling can already be a powerful thing.
What im counting on is that many people will read my comment, and the Holy Ghost will touch their hearts and help them figure out if its something they should believe.
It's all up to agency.
In my opinion its worse if I say this is a fact you should believe in this because of this evidence.
It's better that the Holy Ghost confirms for you.
@@shadowbaconwarrior5604 what if the evidence contradicts your belief? What gives? your feelings or what you can see with your own eyes?
For example we have fragments of the Egyptian papyri that we know for a fact Joseph smith said he translated. He didn’t know Egyptian so we have to assume it was by revelation that he did it. Fast forward 100 years and now scholars are able to tell us exactly what the scroll says. It doesn’t match at all with what the BoA portrays. Doesn’t that invalidate Joseph’s prophetic calling?
mark hoffman gold foil edition?
Can anyone find me one subject discussed in the ces letter which isn't also in the gospel topics essays? And can anyone who reads the gospel topics essays then study it out in the original materials and not come to the same conclusions? The LDS church acknowledges nearly point in the ces letter as an actual historical or theological issue but in an apologetic way in the essays
I appreciate anyone trying to find truth but it seems like this guy was looking for a reason to leave. Anyone who will read something like that and not study the claims to see if those are true or can be backed up accurately is looking for an excuse to try and dismiss their guilt for taking a particular action. 90% of people I see leave so easily are struggling with a sin they don't want to let go of and as soon as they leave they get deep into it. I'm actually surprised that this clip was used on Mormon stories because it seems to be a week argument that unfortunately many follow. People like to make fun of blind faith and this seems pretty blind to me. I'm not saying that is this man's situation but I see it happen a lot. I am sure it happens but I have yet to see someone leave the church to end up living more like Jesus Christ.
I appreciate this so much. Thank you Jack for a clear and simple explanation. It is exactly the same way I feel about my own family with my kids, and my wife. The principles and the doctrines of this gospel is so simple to understand but Satan knows that, and he will do all he can to persuade us to doubt what we know are true. Keep up the great work!
Well said brother! I support all you've said. Children need solid foundation/ good root system.
Follow Jesus Christ.
Thank you!
Saints unscripted did the best video on the CES letter of how deceptive it is
Hey Jack, just curious, did you listen to the whole Mormon Stories episode this is from?
I've read the CES letter. If that shakes your faith, well then, be thankful you read it because it exposed the fact that maybe you didn't have any 😆 the CES letters strengthened my testimony more than anything. There isnt a soul on earth who can explain some of the miracles I've witnessed in my life due to the gospel. Things known only to God. Countless personal witnesses by the spirit of things that are absolutely impossible without devine intervention. But at the same time, the calm, subtle feeling of peace when I pray or read the scriptures. No words of man could ever shake me or others like me. A lot of times, its those who grew up sheltered in the "Utah Mormon culture" who have these faith shaking experiences after reading the letter. Live on your own testimony and be rooted in your own faith. Not the faith of your parents and you'll have clarity in what it is that God manifests to you to be true by the power of the Holy Ghost. That's how we Tongans live and although we aint perfect by any means, we are rock solid in our faith of the gospel. Our testimony is to the death. 💯🙏🏽
Really appreciate this video. Feel like sharing from my own experience of coming to a crossroads point during my own faith crisis… for me, it wasn’t as simple as choosing to believe, but I also didn’t throw everything out because of something that challenged my beliefs.
Taking my questions to God is the only thing that has made me stay. The answers and peace He has given, gave me what I needed to not abandon religion completely, but also helped me realize/ prioritize my personal relationship with the Lord while also realizing how that is different from my relationship with the church.
It is mentioned several times in the video that this bishop needs to look at both sides of the issue. I think that's exactly what he's doing by reading the CES letter. As a bishop, he has obviously been in the church for many years and knows its history and doctrines. Now he has seen the "other side" and he's learning the truth, probably for the first time because the church discourages people from looking at both sides.
If the CES letter was actually talking about regular doctrinal issues, your point would be valid. However the CES letter is heavily reliant on obscurity of its claims to prove its validity. It truly does take some digging to check the references. And you should always check the references rather than believe things uncritically.
I would like to add that i really like your channel. Keep doing what you feel you need to.
Love the video!
When I was a faithful LDS person, who engaged in a ton of apologetics (way before the Internet), if presented with the CES Letter, it wouldn't have made me leave.
I think what it does is raise questions in a single source document that are troubling, particularly to those who have NEVER known about the questions raised.
That opens the "rabbit - hole" where a person can find themselves deluged with a ton of new and troubling information, which could then lead to a faith crisis.
To those who scoff at others who "didn't have a real testimony", that's just nonsense. It's a logical fallacy ( No True Scotsman ).
Certainly there are those who were just weak LDS to begin with, but I know way way too many folks, from different parts of the world who were fabulous, all-in LDS, who have left because of the "rabbit - hole". I also know quite a few who have stayed put.
But obviously the CES Letter is troubling to the LDS position, else it wouldn't be discussed so much.
It's not the CES letter that is concerning. Evil and lies are everywhere in this world that can't be avoided. It's people not taking the time to research and find the answers to questions they have. But to many just want to see one side of things. It's sad
@@BaBumz Too say I didn't research or take time is so absurd, and frankly insulting, for myself and a ton of other folks who did put in the time and the research efforts to resolve very troubling questions.
Sure, there's always some folks who just want out and will go with any excuse, no doubt, but it's just not the case with the overwhelming majority of people I've interacted with.
You need to re-evaluate your response.
The CES letter is chock-full of lies, it's a listicle that, when one reads it, is faced with "There is no way that all of this stuff is lies". Actually, most of it is straight up lies, or bad contextualizations.
@@writeorwrong88 I'm not one to hold it up as a gold standard of scholarship, so don't ding me for that which I've not claimed.
You are, however, greatly overstating about it being full of lies. Is it completely accurate? No. Full of lies? That's a huge stretch, that just doesn't hold true.
@@rodneyjamesmcguireat the end of the day, it's chock full of "I dunnos" and "so whats" and "is it really that significants"
The CES letter started out as a series of questions. Questions quite a few members have. Yes, some of the assumptions are a grasp for a logical answer and maybe less important, so not talked about. But, it's tough for even the most devout to read "A Comparison of The Book of Mormon and The Late War Between the United States and Great Britain". It is a "Historical Reader for the use of schools" published in 1812. It was read in schools all over New York. It made the news in a few papers because of its 21 Pair Chiasmus and biblical style. With over a thousand matching phrases and over 100 rare 4-grams shared with the Book of Mormon you feel like some one is pulling your leg as you read about the same journey, animals, precious metals, wars etc.
Liahona:
The Late War 50:24 made partly of brass...with curious works, like unto a clock; and as it were a large ball.
1 Nephi 16:10 a round ball of curious workmanship; and it was of fine brass. And within the ball were two spindles.
Can you imagine reading a book and noticing almost the same story and coming across those scriptures you learned in Seminary , worded a little different, but the same meaning. I bring up this one example to hopefully show it's not lazy learners that are leaving. It is people looking for answers, and there is so much information at our fingertips . Professors are using programs to detect plagiarism now. If you want to know what happens when you put the Book of Mormon in one of those programs... I'll let you research that on your own. Don't judge your brothers and sisters because they are tired of being taught one thing and a decade or two it changes. I still remember when Joseph Fielding Smith said "Not only was Cain called upon to suffer, but because of his wickedness he became the father of an inferior race. A curse was placed upon him and that curse has been continued through his lineage and must do so while time endures. Millions of souls have come into this world cursed with black skin..."(The Way to Perfection p.101) Still making changes to the Book of Mormon 2Nephi 5:21. If you want an eye opening experience, read the first edition Book of Mormon when it was "the most correct of any book on earth..." the Godhead is trinitarian for one thing. I loved my time in the Church, but I must admit I love being able to spend a lot more time with my family and not meetings(Elders Quorum President, multiple Bishoprics) I still have my same friends and I love and support them.
Been a member for 40 years and I have never knew there CES letter. Who cares?
It was released about a decade ago. The information in it has been around for decades, it just complies a lot of it together. Not long after its release, the church released the Gospel Topics Essays. There is also a Fair response to the CES letter. Many people find all this information fascinating. Others can go their whole life never hearing about it or caring. For those who want to learn more about LDS history, there is a lot out there, and a lot of discussion going on.
I was once a Bishop , I was more concerned and serving, loving and caring, than looking for errors of troubleshooting of the church 😂😂😂😂 many errors in people’s lives or in life will be there all the time but who cares this life is all about and what I’m I getting in this earth, and the love for the savior ,I just want to serve and help others rather that finding errors in the CES letter 😂😂😂
You tossed that gay instruction cult book trash did it your way bravo sir
I read the CES letter and concluded the Church wasn't true. So I left.
But I still had a relationship with God. So I asked God where He wanted me.
And he sent me back to the Church.
I think the most important thing anyone can do is find God.
The promise if you seek Him you will find Him is true.
If you draw near to Him, He will draw near to you.
And just ask God where He wants you.
For me, right now, that is in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
"No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him"
I absolutely believe that is true.
Interestingly, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints leads with that.
They ask everyone, first thing, to pray and ask God if the Church is true.
I don't know how everything fits, but I'm trusting God to fill in the gaps.
I have served as a Bishop in the Church three times, and Branch President once, and a counselor in a Stake Presidency once, and now I serve on a stake Hich Council. I have also read the CES letter, and it's just a collection of old, recycled, anti-church false claims, half truths, and bogus history. That anyone who has had the Spirit of the Lord confirm to their mind and heart the thruthfulness of the restored gospel and church should read this letter and fall for its claims, or have its questions cause them to doubt their faith, rather than rely on the one sure way to the truth--confirmation from the Holy Spirit--is tragic.
Great work, Jack! If you watch his entire video, sounds like the Bishop was already contemplating leaving though.
This happens quite often. People read the CES letter one time, don't do their own research, take Jeremy's word for it, and leave. The CES letter already has a false premise though. Jeremy said he was just trying to find answers. He has TONS of answers yet still produces the CES letter and creates rebuttals to apologists and random people. That is what ultimately broke my 'shelf' in terms of the CES letter. I knew there was some intentional lies that Jeremy left in there so people would abandon their faith in God and put their faith in Jeremy/John Dehlin/etc.
why he keep ssing brother? freemason?
Contemplation over leaving has absolutely nothing to do with cold hard facts. If something is wrong, it's wrong and you can find the same answers whether you want to leave or not. Huge fallacy, keep being blinded.
@@AndrewGiles688 my mom and dad live in bushes Africa and have enough sense see this for what it is
This guy did not lose his testimony that day, he said that he had a lot of things he had been pushing down. There were things prior to this letter. The letter was simply the final rationalization to justify his choice.
"the foundation which will never fall, Jesus Christ" - Powerful words. Thank you!
So I have a question. I read a peice of the CES letter that I have also personally wondered about and I sincerely want an answer. The sermon on the mount is very similar between the Book of Mormon and Matt. BUT it points out that the Joseph Smith translation is different from either. So why doesn’t the Book of Mormon more closely resemble the Joseph Smith translation or should I reject the Joseph Smith translation?
You don't explain why that matters? I have given the same lesson to different groups of students many times. Each time is a little bit different, since I am speaking not reading a script. If records of different times were translated multiple times among multiple languages, then some would be more simular and other would have greater differences.
I wondered that too, then learned that JSTs were not restorations, but clarifications, likely highly influenced by the Adam Clark Bible Commentary available to JS
Now do the next logical jump, how is it that Mormon wrote almost the same exact words that kjv bible translators wrote 1500 years later and engraved them in the plates? How is it that the sermon on the mount, which is really just a bunch of Jesus’ sayings not an actual sermon, appears in the Book of Mormon when it wasn’t even written in the old world until a couple decades after Jesus resurrected?
@@pv3627 I know members of the Church like to say that about the JST but it is not true. I am a bible translator and I can say that most JST is restoration of lost text. I have even verified that in older manuscripts of the bible there are things that are the same with the JST over the current Masoretic text of the OT. I have provided a playlist on my channel called: Finding the Original Bible and site like 11 examples of this. There are a couple of times when I see that the JST clarifies a word. But there are also times when the JST corrects a passage where the language is clearly corrupt but you would not be able to notice it unless you read the original text. Calling the JST mere commentary is degrading to the work of Joseph Smith and is ignorant of what he actually did.
As a Bible translator perhaps I can help. If you can provide the specific reference you are referring to perhaps I can look at it and give you a better explanation. One thing that I have noticed as I was able to use the Book of Mormon when translating the Book of Isaiah is that the language in the Book of Mormon uses the same language as the KJV. I found this extremely helpful in translation because if Joseph Smith had corrected translations that were inferior, it would be impossible to tell if what he had done was a correction in text or a correction in translation. In the Book of Mormon, the differences with the text show that it was a difference in source manuscript and that the manuscripts used by the Nephites were closer to the original manuscripts but that does not mean that those manuscripts were perfect either.
I am so glad he admits that he did what we all say you shouldn’t do. He grabbed the CES letter instead of his scriptures.
This wasn't a one-morning event. These things never are. He was already on the way out, already doubting his testimony and looking for an exit.
He "woke up and picked up the letter" means he had it already, knew something about it, and chose to not examine it critically or seek the Spirit.
So he got what he wanted.
goes both ways make sure you look at both sides too, members are told not to look at anything critical of the official version. I think the questions in the CES letter are valid questions. I think it was unlikely he left after one reading I studied for years. You don't choose to believe you are convinced of the claim or you are not.
Like Jared Halverson says: it’s better to have ‘flexible faith’ rather than ‘brittle belief’
Some people have read the CES letter more than the Book of Mormon.
Every time I read the Book of Mormon I become more convinced that Jesus Christs fingerprints are all over it.
Hey, just sent you an email about this situation and what led to his falling away, but basically he was already struggling with his faith at the time. The CES letter just tipped him over the edge. While I don't agree with his conclusions after reading the CES letter, I pray that he returns one day. If I had to be honest, sometimes I feel judgemental towards those who announce their departure from the church in social media especially when I knew them in youth. "They were never committed anyway" or "They were just coasting through Seminary and institute and didn't bother to open the manual", but it's not always the case. I'm coming to realise that there's many good people in the church who are grappling with certain issues for many months before they eventually leave. I hope we can allow people - like this ex-bishop - the space and time to work things out. l am going to try harder to just point people to the Tree of Life without judgement.
I don't see any link for the giveaway. Can you guys please post it in the comments?
It is in the description! but here it is: www.patreon.com/TheStickofJoseph
@@thestickofjoseph Thanks, but I'm still confused. Do we only get access to the giveaway by becoming patrons?
what fruits do your current leaders have of the titles they claim?
Dang that sweatshirt is so sick. Do you have a link for a place I could buy it?
Hahaha SOLD OUT
Jackson, I don't really see this happening for this bishop or anybody the way you're describing it here. I know a ton of exMormons now and I don't know a single one who just read the CES letter once and walked away with zero further research. For a lot of us it's easy to say something like "it was all over once I read _________" but that's because some of the details in something like the CES letter can truly be earth-shattering because we know the gospel well enough and we've been working out explanations for this stuff our whole lives that we know most all of the nuanced explanations for the issues just don't hold water. Sure, some people might be ok with the BoM being 100% fictional but filled with "good life lessons", but for me that's a non-starter. Sure, maybe some people are fine with the church just being "a good place to raise kids" but, with the mountains of harm the church does in the name of being God's One True Church it doesn't work for me.
Ultimately to me this isn't about gut reactions and finding out which team has the best answers and videos. This takes research involving sources that have no dog in the fight. Did the Pre-Columbian American continents look anything like the BoM?....There's thousands of professionals out there studying this who have zero cares about whether or not the LDS church is true. What do they have to say about this? Do priesthood blessings work? The medical field is a place with records and statistics for just about everything but is there any measurable difference in survival rates or recovery rates in places with significantly high or low LDS populations?
Yes, this is a question that needs more than a gut reaction from a single read-thru of the CES Letter but remember there is a big world out there and most of it doesn't fit nicely into "Anti-Mormon" and "Faithful" boxes.
Mountains of harm?
@@jordan-xe2yb ""Mountains of harm?"" Yep. One example is I have a nephew who's been completely abandoned by his dad because he didn't go on a mission and it's nearly destroyed him spiritually and emotionally and has even almost cost him his life already. If the church is literally true and is God's One True Church then sure, I can see this just being some trial or he couldn't hack God's standard or "God's ways are not our ways" or whatever faithful spin you want to put on that. But if you're going to try and tell me it doesn't matter if the church is literally what it claims to be then I'm going to have to strongly disagree with you on that.
@@sparker602 I am sorry to hear of that experience and I hope they can reconcile. It matters a great deal that the church in fact is what it purports to be. For me and for my family and family-in-law it has been a mountain of blessings, despite the difficult trials across the board.
So what's in this letter that makes a bishop quit his church?
Bishop here.... nope... there's nothing in the CES letter that can make someone with a strong testimony leave the church. Why would I even care to read that to begin with? I have read it on this forum however ... I just don't see any insightful value in it....unless you want to believe....
"I lost my faith that morning" How can you lose your faith in a fell swoop? I'll tell you what, a person that probably has already made the choice to leave and become "unburdened" by the covenants we make may fall pray to these type of documents and false information.
When you have had personal experiences with the Savior... if he is your friend....nothing else matters, he is the rock! You remain steady, and firm... you have a foundation.
I’m so glad I have made the decision to follow the prophet Joseph Smith as well as other prophets since then. I loved your comments and felt your position was solid and true.
Most bishops probably wish they weren’t the bishop of their words. It’s got to be a really hard job. But there’s got to be a better way to get out of it. I mean, fake an illness or something.
Usually someone who leaves the church has other reasons why they left.
Shocking how easily these people throw away a “faith” they have held their whole life. Nothing will shake my faith.
I love your conviction, but be careful with declarations like that. You never know when something out of the blue will shake you to your core. Instead prepare for when your faith is shaken. Know what you’re going to do, so that when you get through a faith crisis you come out stronger on the other side, even if it takes years…make the decision now on what you’ll do. This will serve you far better and strengthen those faith roots even more!
@@brandonl2555that’s actually really good advice
Don't ever say "I'll never leave the church" and such things. Satan will be all over someone that speaks like that. Just work to shield yourself from such deviations from truth and eternal salvation. And pray for others, loved ones and yourself
do you know lions paw sure sign second anointinting election made sure?
What’s shocking it’s the amount of lies that we’re told as members of the church. Nothing fun in finding it out.
What is the CES Letter?
seeking the truth requires prayer and guidance from the spirit !
amen!
2 Nephi 28:31 “Cursed is he that putteth his trust in man, or maketh flesh his arm…” Ultimately, God is the source of truth and if you find yourself being convinced simply by the words or ideas of men alone, you’re on a foundation of sand.
Well expressed Jack!
A true divine witness from the holy ghost cannot be denied for to deny a true divine witness from the holy ghost is a unpardonable sin.
There are many members who haven't received a sure witness from the holy ghost. Many have received the gift to believe in the testimony of others but haven't sincerely saught to gain a knowing witness for themselves. 🙏🏽
No True Scotsman logical fallacy
@@rodneyjamesmcguireHere you are again. You are a broken record, we're are told to endure to the end for a reason, because it's hard and it's going to be hard. If people fall away from a life time of belief is a sign of weak character and weak testimony
@@BaBumz And you're asserting the No True Scotsman logical fallacy. You're giving a textbook example of it.
It's a fallacy that is actually an insult to people who DID exercise patience and DID research ad nauseam about the issues.
To say I was weak is insulting and wrong. Period. Likewise for many, many others.
It's a cop-out. Address the issues. Stop saying folks were weak.
@@rodneyjamesmcguire👏
@@BaBumz I "fell away" after a lifetime of service and study and not a single person would describe me as a weak character or weak testimony. My testimony of God is as strong as ever, just not the Mormon God who is sexist, racist and homophobic. Leaving the church was a lot harder than staying in. Admitting I was wrong for my whole life and losing what I thought was absolute truth was incredibly difficult. That said, now I have re-constructed and have a relationship with a more loving, gracious God, I have never been in a better place or frame of mind.
He's not of the house of Israel. He's a descendant of Japheth.
Is that a good or a bad thing?
@@BazSupport The descendants of Japheth will come in and out of the tent of Shem. Let him go from the church. He doesn't have the birth right promise as those of the House of Israel. It's to be expected.
Ok, what part of Australia is this guy from, I need to know for personal reasons.
4:41 same logic as, "I'm going to cut my breaks and if I roll down this hill and crash then I think the car sucked" 🤦♂️
Sad. The fact he woke up in the morning and made a choice to read anti Mormon literature instead of Come Follow Me (or scriptures for that matter) is proof his mind was never in the right place to begin with.
Would you say it’s sad if a Muslim were to wake up one morning and read anti Muslim material rather than read the Quran and reinforce his beliefs?
What did it say? Where can we find it? The changes does not mean doctrine changes. 😢
I feel like you put a little too much emphasis on the spiritual side of things. You can come to the conclusion that the church is true logically without using the spirit. Now I 100% agree that you can then change your mind back and forth because really you can come to either conclusion logically. I just kind of feel by over emphasizing only knowing by the spirit, it leads people to believe there is no logical reason to believe. I feel like there is both a spiritual and a logical reason to believe. The logic combined with the spirit is what gives me my testimony. I think if you rely on just one or the other you're setting yourself up for failure. Though if you're only going to do one or the other, I would say the spiritual witnesses is by far the most powerful. Evil men can always find a way to twist and hide the facts to convince you logically to disbelieve. But they can't manipulate the spirit in the same way.
That’s good insight brother! We will keep that in mind for further presentations👍🏼
Why would someone try to search for ansers themselves? The B of M was explicit that we must SEARCH (better just read), PONDER (but only what you have been told to think), and PRAY (but only to get the Mormon answer). And if prayer doesn't help, just trust the General Authorities to do your thinking! All set
Helaman 5:12, yep I picked up on that. Thanks for the content you guys make.
I’ve had actual shelves break because they’re too messy, and heavy. Whose fault is it that my shelves are so messy, and heavy? It’s my own fault. It’s my fault for shoving things on, and not organizing or cleaning it off once in awhile. This just happened a few days ago to the point I had to take all the crap down, through a bunch of stuff away, and fix the shelf, then rearrange the stuff I needed to keep. Once a shelf breaks, we just can’t leave it laying there with all the crap laying around it on the floor. Metaphorically speaking, we all have shelves that get too heavy at times. I’ve learned, that when the shelf gets too heavy, it’s not the shelf’s fault. When that shelf can’t hold anything else, it’s time to get rid of the stuff that isn’t important, isn’t helpful, isn’t useful. But I’ve seen so many getting rid of their gospel stuff and leaving all the crap. It’s sad, really.
Would love to see real journalism on the character of the author of the CES letter as well as that of the IRS whistleblower - looking at family relationships, how they lived the gospel, etc. Church members and those who have fallen away are owed this. I know stuff, but a first hand account for all to see/read would be the best thing.
I know one huge anti former member, and what led to them being ex-ed is quite sad. Not only for him but also his family.
What does their character have to do with the information they provide? You can read it and research for yourself to find out if they are saying the truth.
I realized something super cool last year about the great and spacious building not having a foundation. Obviously Christ is the firm foundation, but the Bible also talks about the church being built on a foundation of prophets and apostles. The story talks about the building in conjunction with the idea of fighting against the twelve apostles of the Lamb. I realized that they don't have a foundation because they reject the prophets and apostles. And you can't just have a building built on a cornerstone. They have nothing solid to stand on because they reject the organization of the Church of Jesus Christ.
Christianity is also "divided against itself" and therefore won't be able to stand.
Have you noticed this bald guy has an evil secret society accent?
As a Christian I have had my share of trying times. I have found that over time God provides the answers and reassurance. The Bible does have its share of difficulties, but anything on this earth will have those. The Bible is not inerrant, but it is infallible. Over the years the truthfulness, consistency, and reliability of the text is affirmative at a level not expected from a document developed over a 1500 year period.
So, yes, faith is in some sense a choice, but it must be based on some rationality and testable reliability. The orthodox Bible passes the test. I also agree, that what I have seen and experienced with Christ is so much sweeter than anything without Him. So, I choose to follow Christ and His truth as presented in the Bible.
With all due respect, if the Bible was consistent and reliable, why is there over 200 Christian denominations in the U.S. and a staggering 45,000 Christian denominations globally that all use the Bible as its standard of truth. You'd think if the Bible was as consistent and reliable as you say it is, there would only be one Christian denomination.
You might say, "But yes, humans can interpret the Bible in their own way." I agree. But if the Bible was clear, concise, reliable and consistent, there wouldn't be so many different interpretations.
@@davidfrey5654Agreed
@@davidfrey5654 From my perspective the diversity is due to a number of reasons. 1. Humans are evil and don’t seek the Lord as we should. Jer. 17:9-10. We truly need Christ, but the already, not yet aspect of the gospel is revealed. 2. Unity in diversity is how God created. We are free beings, all with different perspectives. Therefore diversity in some things is good and healthy. 3. Churches that follow Sola Scriptura have general agreement regarding core orthodox positions. So, much of the diversity is exaggerated. In other words we have unity with diversity.
Strict conformity is more forced than natural unity with regards to religion. I don’t believe that is the ideal as presented by Christ. Jesus felt the Samaritan was closer to God than the conformist Jewish leaders. Luke 10:25-37. Religions that don’t follow Sola Scriptura have more conformist unity, but it fails to nurture growth in theological understanding.
Do you think he had not looked into both sides? Surely being in the church for years, serving in callings, being a bishop would he not have looked very much into the “faithful” side of things?
So Bishop leaves because some guy wrote a letter🤣
What if the great and spacious building, floating in the air is the internet?
I really don't get how the CES letter is so effective at shaking people's faith. I personally giggled while reading the parts i did. But i guess if you already have a weak testimony or relationship with the spirit, i can work? But a Bishop with that weak of a foundation is odd to me.... But i guess they are human too, and can have weak faith too.
Where is the internet? Everyone looking through their windows....
The CES Letter is such hot garbage (or cold now?), I've been through it more times than I care to admit and it gets more ridiculous the more you look at it.
All I can say is I wouldn't want to be this Bishop come judgement day. I'm afraid he may be a son of perdition. You don't become a bishop without have the spirit bearing the truth of Jesus Christ and the church many times. Denying the Holy Ghost after that is the definition of the sons of perdition.
"The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him." --Proverbs 18:17
I think that the phrase "look whose talking", comes into play. Some sources are just so questionable they are not to be believed. So many of the critics say things that are so supposed, repeated enough times this, becomes the NEW testimony. Some are willing to believe on others say so!
"Jack back with fact!" lol
The CES letter is an invitation to the great and spacious building 🤷🏼♂️
Nelson announces plans for the construction of more and more great and spacious buildings every conference.
Ok so I’ll hang out in my great temple building and you hang out in your spacious one 😂
He never had a testimony. He just floated along in life until challenged and since he had no foundation he crumbled.
"Jack attack the lack of fact!" haha
What was this Bishop’s testimony before reading a document? Pretty flimsy and not too intellectually driven to lose faith overnight. There is more going on here with this individual that we aren’t privy to. No foundation is a understatement. However, some of these assumptions that we carry could be avoided if church leadership could come out out clarify how scriptures come about and in the issue with literalism maybe some can be inoculated from these issues. It won’t go away on its own and if leadership can’t clearly confront real issues and answer them suspicion will continue and many will feel compelled to leave. This to me is an urgent situation since I’m seeing too many becoming confused when we don’t have the tools and guidance to tackle difficult questions.
There is no place on earth that fits the BOM because it is not true. Thankfully, there is truth found in the Bible and the eternal, all powerful, perfect, only true God can be found in it.
There is NO archaeological, anthropological, topological, linguistic, botanical or dna evidence to support the Book of Mormon. LDS anthropologist Dee Green: “The first myth we need to eliminate is that BOM archaeology exists” conceding 20 years of research “left us empty-handed” (Green 1969 p. 77)
NO trace of Jewish dna found in any Indian burial ground anywhere in the Americas from time period of BOM. Thomas W. Murphy, (Mormon scholar, DNA researcher):“We are in a dilemma, the genetic evidence shows that American Indians are not Hebrews, they are not Israelites. The Book of Mormon is not true.” John Whitmer Historical Association Journal 2005
IS THE GOD OF THE BOOK OF MORMON THE SAME ONE AS IN THE BIBLE? NO! In the LDS Church’s 147th Conf., Gen Authority Bernard P. Brockbank said: the Christ followed by Mormons is NOT THE CHRIST followed by traditional Christianity. (Ensign, May 1977 p. 26)
"Before me NO god was formed, nor shall there be ANY after me.” (Isaiah 43:10) If Mormonism is true, then God could not make this claim, for he was just a man at one point; nor could he claim that no gods would come after him, for that is the goal of LDS members.
Like Joseph Smith, this was the goal of Satan, to be like God and have worshipers. "I will exalt my throne above the stars of God ... I will be like the Most High”’ (Isaiah 14:12-14)
NO truth: Book of Abraham published with 3 facsimiles taken from an ancient papyrus. The book is a funerary papyrus showing scenes from the Egyptian Book of the Dead. In Facsimiles Nos. 1 & 3, Smith misidentifies everything depicted. "LDS and non-LDS Egyptologists agree that the characters on the fragments do not match the translation given in the book of Abraham" Quote from LDS OFFICIAL WEB PAGE
NO trace of the “Two million Jaredites slain” (Ether 15:2), with iron, brass, breast-plates, shields, and armor. It would be impossible for these millions of dead warriors in armor to leave no trace.
NO trace of the great city Zarahemla- it would be impossible for a city the size of Zarahemla (Alma 5:2; D&C 125:3) to leave no trace.
NO temple like Solomon's described in 2 Nephi 5:16 has ever been found yet biblical temple is easily seen in Jerusalem. If the temple Nephi describes ever existed it could not disappear.
NO Nephite "reformed Egyptian" writings ever found anywhere as it is not a real language anywhere in the world.
NO cities mentioned in the BOM have ever been located (none of 38) anywhere. It would be impossible for them to disappear unless they never existed.
NO evidence: "The whole land was covered with buildings, and the people were as numerous, as it were the sand of the sea." Yet not one ever located. (Mormon 1:7) IMPOSSIBLE for highly advanced civilizations (Jaredites, Nephites) & MILLIONS of people to have vanished.
The BOM speaks of sheep, swine, silk, wool clothing & elephants existing in the Americas when they did not. 1 Ne.13:7; Alma 4:6; Ether 9:17 and 10:24 These were brought to America centuries later by Europeans.
NO wheat, no goats, no metal smelting furnaces, no metal armor, no steel swords, no cattle, no chariot parts, no brass (Mosiah 8:10) no evidence of the listed Kings in BOM, no Jewish relics or Jewish Temples from supposed Jews, no metal plates like Nephites supposedly used, no middle eastern seeds growing, "which were brought from the land of Jerusalem ... and grew exceedingly" 1 Nephi 18:24
CAN WE IGNORE THE LACK OF EVIDENCE FOR THE THE BOOK OF MORMON AND JUST TRUST OUR HEARTS AS TO THE TRUTH OF IT EVEN THOUGH IT CONFLICTS WITH THE BIBLE? NO!
D&C Section 9:8-9 - tell us that if something is true it will make our "bosom burn" and we will FEEL that it is right. Maroni 10:4 says: "he will manifest the truth of it unto you"
The Bible warns us against this subjective type of truth test. Why? Because we have a sinful nature that can be deceived. Proverbs 28:26 "He that trusts in his own (bosom) heart is a FOOL."
The Scriptures, however, are infallible and can never be wrong (John 17:17; Psalm 119:128; 33:4; 19:8; Romans 3:4).
This is why the Bible frequently urges us to study and meditate on God's word. 2 Timothy 2:15 KJV "STUDY ... rightly dividing the word of TRUTH." Acts 17:11 "EXAMINE THE SCRIPTURES to see if what said is TRUE". 1John 4:1 says: "BELIEVE NOT EVERY SPIRIT, ... because MANY FALSE PROPHETS have gone out into the world."
Mormonism claims the bible was corrupted to justify Joseph Smith's changing of the biblical, eternal God into an evolving, created god, who is not all powerful and is one of an endless number of gods . However, this is a PROVABLY FALSE claim.
The Claim: In the BOM, the prophet Nephi has a vision the Bible was corrupted and "plain and precious parts" were removed after the 12 apostles and after the formation of the “great and abominable church” (1 Nephi 13:26-29). Most Mormons believe this is the Catholic Church formed in the 4th century. Nephi claims this church was founded by the Devil (1 Nephi 14:3). So let’s objectively examine the Bible & BOM.
BIBLE: The Dead Sea Scrolls have been dated to as early as 350 BC. One is the Great Isaiah Scroll, which is the oldest known copy of the Book of Isaiah dated to 180 BC.
Do ANY ancient scrolls show Smith's "uncorrupted" version of scripture? NO! Yet they would if the scripture was later corrupted after the 12 apostles died as Smith and Nephi said.
Also, if they had been corrupted, Jesus would have corrected scripture instead of affirming it! Jesus sd:“ I told you EVERYTHING written about me in the Law of Moses, the Books of the Prophets, and in the Psalms had to happen.” (Luke 24:44-46)
Scripture is the same today as it was 2,100+ years ago with only minor spelling and punctuation differences. Joseph Smith was wrong. These scrolls pre-dated Catholics, and are Jewish scrolls and the BOM says the Jews had the Scriptures in their "purity". 1Nephi 13:25
LDS Apologist Wayne Ham admitted the Isaiah scroll does not support the the BOM. Apologist Dr. Sidney B. Sperry, of BYU, said the Dead Sea Scrolls do not help the case for the BOM. BYU Professor Joseph F. McConkie: "Rather than Joseph Smith as Found in Ancient Manuscripts, it ought be Joseph Smith as Lost in Ancient Manuscripts.” (Religious Studies Center, 1984)
The new testament has not been corrupted either. See the book of John. Smith changed it to make Jesus a created being. Research a 1900 year old papyri known as the Bodmer Papyri of the book of John. (written 150 AD, around the Apostle John's time)
John 1:1 "In the BEGINNING was the WORD and the WORD was WITH God and the WORD WAS God." ΕΝ ΑΡΧΗ ΗΝ Ο ΛΟΓΟΣ ΚΑΙ Ο ΛΟΓΟΣ ΗΝ ΠΡΟΣ ΤΟΝ ΘΕΟΝ ΚΑΙ ΘΕΟΣ ΗΝ Ο ΛΟΓΟΣ (look up this ancient Greek yourself on google)
John 1:1 Joseph Smith translation: "In the beginning was the GOSPEL preached through the Son. And the GOSPEL was the word, and the word was with the Son, and the Son was with God, and the Son was of God." Smith's Jesus is no longer God in the flesh but the biblical Jesus is: "God was manifest in the flesh" 1Tim. 3:16 KJV
There are 4,000 Greek manuscripts of the New Testament. Some go back to 350 AD and NONE support Joseph Smith's claims that the bible of today has been corrupted.
Papyrus fragments exist of the New Testament dated to 175 AD and show that the new testament has NOT been "corrupted". (New Testament Docs: Are They Reliable? Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1967 pp. 15-17)
The manuscript and archeological evidence for the BIBLE is the GREATEST in antiquity. I pray you know the true Jesus and not Joseph Smith's exalted man from another planet who is not eternal, not all powerful, not perfect but evolving, and was polygamous.
God is much greater than the humanoid of Mormonism and NOT just ONE OF AN ENDLESS NUMBER OF EVOLVING GODS.
Jesus said ALL scripture will NOT fade away but "many wolves in sheep's clothing" will come trying to add to the word. Mathew 7:15 Joseph Smith changed Jesus, the Father and taught you can become a GOD.
It hurts my heart to see Mormons fall for the lie that we can become God when there is only one eternal God found in the bible.
"The only men who become Gods, even the sons of Gods are those that enter into polygamy." (Brigham Young) Journal of Discourses 11 p.269
Apostle Orson Pratt, in The Seer, page 172, “the great Messiah who was the founder of the Christian religion was a Polygamist…the Messiah chose to take upon himself his seed; and by marrying many wives, … The son followed the example of his Father"
God gave us critical thinking & logical reasoning for a reason, which is why he does tell us to EXAMINE and TEST what we are being taught for TRUTH. The bible withstands the truth test. Joseph Smith's version fails the truth test. It's your eternity, study it for yourself. God bless.
CES oooh “scary” 😂😂😂
This bishop doesnt have a testimony in the first place. And obviously looking for way out of the church. He probably have doubts or not wanting to live the standards and looking for something or someone to afirm it.
I wonder if for a time during his membership and leadership in the church if he truly have acknowledged the truth and the blessings of the gospel in his life. Because if he did, I dont think he will turn away that easily after reading someone’s thesis.
What happened to his testimony
It tanked about the same time he cheated on his wife with the RS president.
5:20
Proverb 18:13, 17 (NIV)
13 To answer before listening- that is folly and shame.
17 In a lawsuit the first to speak seems right, until someone comes forward and cross-examines.
"Jack cracks the lack of fact" lol
I don’t want to be mean but I don’t know how else to phrase it. Whenever I hear about these stories the first thought I have is always.
“I wonder how strong their testimony was before this?”
That's very judgemental.
No True Scotsman logical fallacy.
Here you two are again 😂 where will I find you next??
@@BaBumz Glad to be of service.
No need to wonder, watch the Mormon Stories episode (1790) and listen to the guy tell his story. That will allow you to have a less judgmental “first thought”
The mockers in the Great and Spacious building have no foundation and they will eventually fall like a house of cards!
@brucelloyd7496 Bruce... your comment sounds just like someone stood mocking from the great and spacious building...
@@benkenlaude3301 brilliant!!
Ok, I'll admit I'm behind the powecurve here- what's this CES letter that caused such consternation?