Shooting Skin Cartridges in Cap and Ball Revolvers
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- čas přidán 13. 12. 2021
- Description of reproduction Civil War era Skin Cartridges as made according to the book "Making the Skin Cartridge" by W.J.L. Schroeder. These factory made cartridges were very popular during the Civil War and up to the end of the Percussion era. Test firing at the range to determine ignition, reliability and accuracy. Also showing the "Star Cappers" made by Crossin Cartridge Formers.
I will be testing in a 2020 produced Pietta Model 1861 Navy revolver and a 1873 produced Euroarms New Model Navy in .36 Caliber.
The bullet used is the .36 Colt Cartridge Works, cast from a mold by Eras Gone Bullet Molds at: www.erasgonebullets.com
The book can be found here (I mention a Kindle version in the video, but I was mistaken)
www.amazon.com/gp/product/B09...
Crossin Cartridge Formers
crossen-cartridge.company.site/
Nice shooting, I had never heard of "Skin Cartridges" but it seems to be a short story in the evolution of firearms.
Thx for the vid, always a pleasure to hear what you have to say.
So a gunpowder sausage?? I love it
Mark, Thank you for making this video. Bill is a very old and dear friend of mine who is a wealth of knowledge of the ways of firearms and life of the 1800s. This book was a labor of love for him and to have you sharing it with your viewers means a lot. Thanks again and much success to you in the coming year.
I didn't even know these were a thing. Pretty cool.
I've been shooting black powder pistols since the late sixties, simply reaming all the chambers with a standard 3/8th reamer and a drill press, with care, will fix the issue, correctly, if they are all proper depth, Pieta's especially sometimes "wander". Uberti's were always better, more accurately made, cost more, I've not dealt with them in two decades, but have repaired a good many others over the years. I run a machine shop, and would easily open up the bullet pushers to proper dimensions and shape, if necessary, any small shop should be able to do so for a reasonable price. The accuracy with substantially benefit, from having the bullet properly centered, it's the largest factor in general, with those "semi-rounded" style pushers. I really enjoyed this, skin cartridges are new to me, somehow, thanks a bunch, Semper Fi.
Thank you Mark, that was the first I heard of skin cartridges. Very informative!
So, extra spicy tiny sausages then
super extra spicy
Mark, it will always be a good day when my morning starts with one of your informative and thoughtful videos. Really appreciate them. Have a blessed Christmas.
Always learning something from Mark !
Always interesting learning new history on these revolvers. Nicely done video.
who would have known skin would make such an effective medium thanks for the informative video
cap n ball torture
EYO
Pfp checks out
Woe
@@Gibblegobblegoob jacc
Man they really put ANYTHING in hot dogs back then didn't they? This is so cool, I should have figured they'd come up with some kind of waterproofing back in the day. Are those like nitrate treated like the paper ones, or does the sausage casing burn well enough on its own?
I try to collect oddball cartridges. That would be a cool addition to my collection.
I've noticed pietta isn't making the same quality pistols they were just a few years ago. Great info on skin loads!
Excellent job Mark, you never cease to impress.
Congratulations on having Mark sharing your book and your knowledge on his channel my friend.
Thank you for your service brother! Love your cap ! Good video, Sgt Edwards 1st and 5th battalion 16th Inf Reg.
thank you, Sir. CSC 1/2 Infantry and then E co 5/16 Inf when it was stood up in 1982.
I am a very big fan. I will be making a video on your bullets in original cap and ball revolvers soon for my CZcams channel. It's amazing how much more power they actually have over roundball
I'll be looking forward to it.
This helped me with some inspiration for a Fantasy novel I'm writing! Thank you!!
This is hilarious, I just bought this book out of curiosity.
Greetings from Poland!
You can always re-chamber cylinder and find correct size of bullet for barrel. I did that to my .44 1860 colt from euroarms 1974y ;) and pietta from 2009.
Glad to watch another one of your videos sir. Glad you are still at it!
I had never heard of the skin cartridge before, very interesting! Thanks for the video!
Great video! I've been waiting for someone to make real skin cartridges. Not just wax paper. I've never had any trouble with caps not penatrating, any kind of paper.
Great video thanks for sharing I hadn’t heard of them there skin cartridges before. The paper hulls I’ve used them in shotgun before. Thanks for sharing and GOD BLESS
gun sausages, my favorite!!
Bangers
Absolutely fascinating! Great Video ! Wishing you and yours a Happy and Healthy New Year !
The only cartridges that I have made that leave zero residue in the chambers are flash paper & flash glue which can be purchased from magician supply stores. I just shot some yesterday in my Behemoth 1848 Dragoon .44 cal. pistol. I would like to try some of your Dragoon bullets if you ever get moulds back in stock.
Another great video, as always Mark.
An excellent experimental "archelogy" video, the undersize chambers are really a big advantage, they can easily be reamed out to .001" over groove size to make the correct size, when they are oversize, there is nothing you can do, the extra force required to seat in these chambers will soon cause problems with the loading system I think, it would appear that these Piettas are made for display only! Stay safe ! Chris B.
That's amazing! Thanks for sharing. This is the first I've heard of skin cartridges.
I prefer Uberti. I used to have a Ruger Old Army, but; I let it get away from me. I wish Ruger would start making it again. As others below said, you can true the cylinders up pretty easily.
I've had my eye on a Uberti reproduction Colt Navy for a while now. I like the idea of being able to shoot hand cast projectiles with homemade powder. The percussion caps are a bit tricky though, there are products for stamping caps out of aluminum cans, but I have to buy contact explosive (binary components) for the primers.
@@the_inquisitive_inquisitor I have an Uberti Colt Navy and used to have the Uberti Colt Army. The Army was a little on the large side. The Navy is one sweet shooting pistol. You will not be disappointed in the Navy. Uberti makes the London version as well. It has a blued trigger guard and the correct London stamp on the barrel. Mine is just the regular version. I haven't gone as far as making my own caps, but; I have an old Lyman mold that I can cast balls for the Navy. Just a little tough to find lead every now and then.
@@stephenbridges2791 lead, aluminum, copper, brass.... whatever melts
Awesome stuff. I had no clue skin cartridges existed.
There were even metal foil ones
Authenticity in historical firearms is something of a passion of mine, you can count me as a loyal subscriber
Excellent! Thank you for posting
Thank you, Sir. Another great video.
very good video, i love these old guns.
This is the first video of yours I believe I have watched. Outstandingly done Sir. The reason for my comment is simple. Call Pietta and let them know. More than likely they will solve your issue. LOL Be sure to let them know of your channel. Bad press is just that. Bad for a company. I bet they fix it at no cost under warranty.
Also, something I learned working at a gunsmith shop. New gun, used gun or a gun you have owned a long time. If it does not pattern well. Re-do or at least check the barrel crown. I have bought a number of guns at the range that shot badly. Like 10 inch or bigger groups at a 100. Crown them and take out of stock and clear it of touching action or barrel. Checking the crowns, they were always bad. Would bring them into a 1 to a 1 1/2 group at a 100. No joke, the Crown "IS" the most important thing on any firearm in my opinion. If it is bad. I do not care how good you or the firearm is. Your shooting will stink.
fantastic!! Thank you Mark, it's a very rare and interesting argument!😊
Awesome! I was watching the vid and noticed the range looks similar/Familiar. Yep, that's my local favorite range in north AL. I usually shoot at plastic targets on the 50 yd berm with pistols.
Thanks for keeping the old stuff alive!
Yes, I normally shoot at Swan Creek, but when it is closed during water fowl season, I drive over to Skyline.
imagine being that badass that rocked a skin cartridge revolver as your self defense EDC.
For legal reasons the only firearms I can legally own are black powder guns. My everyday pistol that I tote around with me is a Pietta 1860 Army cut down snub nose with a bird's head grip. It's surprisingly ergonomic easily fits in the pockets of my coat and jacket, and shoots best with heavy (30+ grain) powder loads. The only real drawback these guns have is the slowness of reloading but with prepared cartridges the cap and ball revolvers actually reload as fast or faster than cartridge weapons like the 1873 Single Action Army because you don't have to eject cases first. Most altercations involving the legal use of a firearm are settled in two or three shots anyway so I'm not terribly concerned about reloading but I would like to have some reloads in the carry bag I use just in case. It's easy to make paper cartridges and if you use flash paper you need not ever worry about ignition. But moisture is the bane of both primers and powder and I keep some big packets of silica gel in my gun tote bags to keep them dry. I would trust the reloads more if they were semi-waterproof like these skin cartridges. I'm going to check out that book.
I wonder if the synthetic tubes almost universally used now for commercial sausage making (supposedly because using actual intestine is a disease risk) would work for this. I've made sausage with it and with natural intestine both, and there's very little difference between the two. It would be interesting to experiment with it.
My home defense weapons are a ludicrous - huge Walker Colt (Uberti) with maximum loads, and I also have one of the AGC Desperado 12-gauge shotgun pistols I keep loaded with 70 grains of black powder and ten .31 balls in each barrel.
Anyone who tries to rob me is going to have a bad day.
How often. Do you change the charges in your weapons? I always worry that if they sit to long they won't fire when needed.
@@patrickscalia5088 There was a recent supreme court ruling that ruled it's unconstitutional to ban felons from owning/buying firearms. With that being the case, how then can the still have background checks? If even convicted felons can get guns, then who the hell can they still deny? In the end though... ALL FREE PEOPLE have the RIGHT to bear arms. Period. It is a fundamental Human Right, as is the Right to Self Defense and Self Preservation. Yes, a black powder gun is as lethal as a smokeless powder gun... but a modern semi-auto is a Far better weapon for self defense. I always say that nobody disarms a Free Person, but himself. It is a fundamental Human Right and as such, it does not require permission or approval. In the days where Anyone can buy/build a firearm, the only way for any Free person to be disarmed is for him to disarm himself.
@@Sleepindragon2 They can sit for decades without a problem. As long as the caps stay seated the gun will shoot. There is an extremely slight chance that black powder can pick up humidity from the air, but being in a mostly sealed chamber, it's unlikely to happen. As long as it doesn't get wet, it should still work. There have been cases where people fired Civil War weapons with well over 100 year old charges in them. Samuel Colt actually loaded his revolvers and then dropped them into a bucket of water for hours before then pulling them out of the water and shooting them, to display how well they are at remaining loaded and viable. For that to be the case though, the percussion caps have to be seated/sealed against the nipple... and of course the bullet has to be sealed too... but the bullets are always sealed if you press them in and get that ring of lead shaving. For the caps though, you have to be certain that they perfectly fit the nipple/taper and have to be pressed on with force, so the cap can seal along the very edge where it contacts the taper. If the gun is well loaded and has the natural mechanical seal, then you could (theoretically) carry it for years without having to reload it.
Like the 1st ID hat, served with 1/5 FA at Ft Riley during the early 90's including Desert Storm. Great times, great military base. Love the black powder gun info, just getting started in them.
this was very interesting thank you for making this video
Great video with great info and I Thank You Kindly for your service as well! Many Blessings! DaveyJO in Pennsylvania
Great video Mark, you have the one channel where I always learn something new and different. I also have the same model Pietta in .44cal, it is not a good design for paper cartridges.
Highly interesting, new, I learned!
That is extremely cool!
Interesting...
iam a old dog that can be taught new tricks. this is seeing your video the first time a greatly enjoyed it. I’ve shot muzzle loading rifles and hunting with them about all my adult life and outher weapons rifles, shot guns, pistols, bows. it was all wonderful it with age and health issues I already know one day i just can’t no more and it’s 👍 ok . many men will dream to have thehunts the memories, the blessings that iam not worthy of so now i can still teach ours that will listen. Nana and papa wishing you well.
beautiful cartridges
Fine vid Sir. Thank you.
I'm getting a real 'Bob Ross' vibe from this guy. Really interesting video. Liked, saved and subscribed from the UK! Thanks 👍
I'm gettin a real, Bob Sponge, Pre apocalyptic Bikini,!! feeling going on. Didn't this guy play a workman, blocking off the the only road out of town in the first Tremors move.
Thanks for the sub! I'll take Bob Ross as a comparison.
I've never heard of skin cartridges before, very interesting! Also, I tried the trick of blowing down the barrel after the shot of my 50 Cal and was able to get ten shots before the powder fouling got excessive, that actually does work!
WELL DONE SIR THANKS FOR THE VIDEO
Thanks Blackie!
Skin Cartridges- no shortage of skin on a battlefield
Blood Marines in the comment section
Love that Big Red One baseball cap on the range!! 16th Infantry - Semper Paratus!
Wife - what are you doing with my sausage casings?
Me - making skin cartridges for my revolver.
Wife - Out of the kitchen - NOW!!!
And that's why I stick with paper cartridges.
God invented pimp smacks for a reason. I suspect that the making of homemade skin cartridges was one of them.
Hi Mark, I bought a 1851 Uberti and had two shots go wild every cylinder. Checked the cylinder to find the chambers were oval with two being much worse than the others. These two were in line with the heaviest part of the engraving, the roller engraving had distorted the chambers. Reamed them back round, overall not overly happy with the gun. Had to put in a lot of time to sort out the poor egineering finishing, although it shoots well now and I do like the gun I shouldn't have had to do what I had to do to a new gun to get it working well!
Colin
QC can be pretty spotty for all the Italian makers. Did you to the reaming job yourself?
@@erasgonehistoricalmolds2400 Yes I used a hand reamer which are tapered and helped guide it. I fudged it a little towards the outside of the cylinder as that was where the distortion was. I thought I might have to cut the end of the reamer off for a second pass to get the correct dia. to the chamber because of the taper, but it worked out fine with one pass.
I think I ended up with a max variation between the chambers of around 2/10ths of a thou. I also cut a wider angle to the forcing cone.
The gun now shoots better than I can shoot it!
Colin
Glad to see a video Mark. Hope your well. Thanks for the info.
Ireally wish we could get consistent cap and ball revolvers that worked reliably with out fiddling lol. Every single revolver ive found has its own set of gimmes right off the shelf, then its own set of individual small issues.
Could hone those chambers and get them consistent... Not sure where to find a hone that small... Ive been meaning to go looking for them... Kind of an annoying problem to fix in Pietta and Uberti guns. Only thing worse then inconsistent chamber sizes, is oblong chambers... Seen those too
An easy modification using an adjustable reamer.
@@453421abcdefg12345 An adjustable reamer you say? Would this require a lathe or could it be done by hand with a T-handled tool?
@@MrBillinoregon An adjustable reamer, because its make up, can be increased by very small increments, and can be turned in with a tap wrench, the cylinder would need to be secured in a fixed vice to make the job easier, but I have reamed out many repro percussion pistols like this, there is a need to use copious amounts of cutting fluid to prevent "juddering" but it is not a difficult job, and the results are very rewarding, obviously a lead slug driven into the barrel to ascertain groove size would be a requirement, but that is an easy task, good luck! Chris B.
@@453421abcdefg12345 Thanks Chris. I will have to look into this. Although I am no gunsmith or machinist, it can be rewarding to tweak the Italian revolvers for improved performance.
@@MrBillinoregon Glad to hear you are having a go ! The adjustable reamers are available giving a range around the size you want, and I would suggest a good make rather than a chinese thing, the type you need is one with multiple flutes in which the blades slide, they are moved up the tapered flutes by turning a collet at each end, so you unscrew one, and tighten the other, take care and increment very slowly! Chris B.
He’s definitely correct with pietta!!! I have a Remington new model army and a Remington (1858 carbine) by Uberti.
The pietta is way smaller cylinders with no provision for easily loading conicals. Although with practice it is workable just far from convenient like the Uberti
Excellent, thanks!
Very informative
Very interesting...thnx
i have a pair of 1858 remington ubirty then a retired colt gunsmith went through them which was the guy i got them from. with a bunch of cylinders and converters to 45 long colt with 5 lb of black caps and 300 ball, ball mold flask with 15,20,25,30,35,40 and 45 grain tips all for 1000 bucks with a navy 36 petta for 100 bucks. all 3 are over 50 years old. the remingtons took first place in state one year against modern guns in hand gun shooting contest. after shooting them i believe him on that even all my friends say the same thing they shoot perfect in every way . the guy i got them from said he had to file the end of the barrel to get them to shoot perfectly straight i never new they did that to guns . even the cylinder fits perfect when u pull the hammer back the cylinder goes tight against the barrel very little blow bye i can't put a 1000th in it on a fuller gauge the 36 massive blow bye but he never did any thing to it, it is stock.the ubirties are my fav gun to shoot and i have a lot of original colts even a model 1897 38 acp colt which had to be made in 1897 to 1901 then in 1902 they updated it to a 1897/1902 model which i have one of them too which was from ww1 pilot side arm
Thank you for this video :) I use rislas to make my cartridges( cigarette rolling papers in UK ) Best regardas
Sausage Bullets!
Bangers!
Great video, very interesting! Would you think about a video filling in where the book leaves off (mandrel dimensions)? Thinking a maker film on the skin cartridge would be an idea. Sure you’re busy enough without my two pence worth mind…
That chamber diameter is easy to fix. Just order a reamer and gently turn it until it bottums up. I do remove the nipples, and I made a fixture using a turned dowl inserted into a hardwood block which diameter matches the diameter for the cyinder pin... Mine loads and shoots much better now!
I made up some skin cartridges in 44 caliber several years ago, and found them to be very clean shooting. However the extra work to make them wasn't appealing to me. I now use paper carts exclusively. But I recommend trying the skins anyway. They're an interesting bit of history.
With modern technology, there are Many ways to make the paper cartridges waterproof. Even that stuff that comes in spray cans to waterproof shoes works really well... but I'm sure there are many better, cheaper methods. You could probably also make skin cartridges easier and better with modern technology too, instead of making exact replicas.
My father passed down a 44 dragoon to me and ive yet to shoot it but this is something interesting to me for sure. i wonder if i could get a few rounds like these for the 44 of mine.
SMOKED SAUSAGES!! XD
You can use a Uberti plunger, they are conical. A .375 reamer would fix the chambers with little effort, probably just pre drilled at the factory and not reamed.
Great video but I was wondering if you get some mould block's soon, I have been on your site and almost everything is out of stock
I have .36 Richmond Labs molds in stock now. Everything else is on order, some long over due according to original estimates. I'm hoping LEE Precision will be able to step up production after Christmas.
With your chambers being so tight, you should check your bore. If your chambers are that tight, they're going to make smaller bullets as the lead is shaved off while pressing them in. If your bore is not as small as the chambers, then the bullets will not seal and that can cause all sorts of problems, especially with accuracy, but also with slowly damaging the barrel (would be damaged a lot faster if you were shooting smokeless powder). I don't recall the term, but hot gas escapes through the grooves in the bore and it strips lead from the bullets causing leading and steel from the barrel causing bore damage.
This was interesting
What an interesting video, Mark! I had heard of skin cartridges but have never seen one! I've also read that there were cartridges made from foil...that has got to be very rare today!
Mark, where can I find copies of .36 and .44 caliber semi-circular (envelope?) templates for the paper cartridges? I have all the tools but no full-sized templates that I can transfer to card stock.
Thanks for the great video!!!
I'd make the cappers with 7 or 8 caps per piece - that way if you drop a cap you aren't fumbling around trying to find it on the ground or having to pull another capper out of the box to complete the cylinder. Yes, you will more often than not have an extra cap or two, no problem, just put the capper back in the box. I'm going to go look and see if they are on Thingiverse - it'd be interesting to print one's own.
As always very informative 👍
quite good
Black powder caseless ammo essentially. It'd be an interesting exercise to see modernized versions of these for modern revolvers.
that's a moot point though as metallic cartridges replaces this earlier style of ammunition because it was completely self contained with the primer in the cartridge. Skin and paper cartridges are slower to load and more susceptible to moisture than metallic ones. There wouldn't be a reason nor good way to replicate these for modern cartridges.
Love my 1851-36cal & 1858-44cal & 50cal long gun
so hotdog bullets
Something I have always wondered about is if there are any records of breech loading carbines that were designed to take the ready made skin/paper revolver cartridges? Kind of like an 19th century pistol caliber carbine
Yes, in fact several of the skin cartridge companies made Sharps Carbine and Rifle Musket ammunition on contract to the US Army.
Is the Euroarms .36 caliber a smaller frame than the .44 caliber version, or is it like the newer .36 caliber ones with the same frame as the .44s?
the .44's are the same as the .36's... they use a stepped cylinder like the 1860 model did. The 1860 frame is more or less the same as the 1851.
@@wildrangeringreen That would be for the Colt type open frame revolvers. I should have specified in my comment that I was asking about the Remington type revolver. I have heard that some early production 36 caliber Remington repros were made with a smaller frame like the original ones were. All of the recent Remington repros use the big 44 caliber frame for the 36 caliber. There's just smaller holes bored in the cylinder for the 36 caliber, and a smaller bore in the same size barrel that's used for the 44. The original Remington 36 caliber revolvers were a bit smaller and weighed a bit less.
@@amberyooper I do wish someone would reproduce the Beals revolver in navy caliber 👍
If I’m not mistaken I believe that the two bullets may have gone through one hole on the target out of the first gun
Greetings from Apacheria in the Arizona Territories Ahe'hye'e
The intro image looks like a joint
.366 .368, chambers not good if bore is .375.
Was thinking the same and left a long comment explaining. I think that may be why his accuracy is so terrible. The chambers are drilled while the bore is made in a different way with different tools (regardless of what method they use).... so his chambers being so undersized probably means that his bullets will be undersized and won't create a seal in the bore/rifling... and that can be very bad for accuracy and the life of the barrel. It can cause very bad accuracy and very bad leading problems to start with... and in time will eat away at the walls of the bore. Depending on how bad it is, that can destroy a barrel in a couple thousand rounds... or even with just a couple hundred rounds. (With smokeless powder, I'm not sure if black powder is as destructive though. I would guess that black powder is not as bad as smokeless, but that it will still ruin the barrel if the hot gas can escape through the bore). I would ask Pietta for a new cylinder, because it's so far off that I would bet it's not within spec and should have never been sold. When it comes to bullets/bore, even a 0.005" difference can be a real problem... but 0.007 to 0.009 just seems beyond unacceptable.
Its quite surreal seeing a cap revolver instantaneously fire with no delay.
??? you shouldnt have a delay on a cap fired revolver at all, ever. Flint, yes, you'll get a delay from the flash pan to the main charge going off. Cap and ball pistols should be pretty much instantaneous. Ive got half a dozen cap and ball pistols and none of them have any delay in firing.
The internet is fine and all really cool however there is nothing like reading a book you think you know it all read a book I had no idea this even exist when that solar flare hits and the internet's down me and my books are going to be quite valuable I'm more books this subject School
I'll bet a mohel can make a nice one.
Good little sideline.
Neat
Cabela's used to sell Sausage making supplies. I wonder if the Synthetic Sausage Skin tubing could be used for making Cartridges. Also has anyone done anything with Black Powder Substitutes with Skin Cartridges due to the Goex Plant situation?
I would do some research into what chemicals or compounds the synthetic tubing is made of. Usually, synthetics have different pyrotechnic properties than organic materials. The fouling of the synthetic material(s) may also corrode or damage the gun, quicker, or at a greater rate than sheep's gut. If it were I, I would go with the natural, organic materials that were available in the era that these firearms were originally produced. There weren't too many synthetics around back then. If you do decide to use the synthetic tubing, please share your conclusions. 🤙🏻
The artificial skin for a sausage is usually gelatin. It's probably extremely similar to the properties of intestine but you're right that a range report would be interesting. I actually wonder if this could be done with nitrated gelatin.
Why only 6 caps in each of those cappers? You could fit at least double that, probably 3x without it being any more difficult to deploy. Might be a bit harder to load...
It would would be a tight squeeze onto the nipples with 12 flanges. Plus, 6 equals the number of chambers on the cylinder
Interesting that a new colt style clone is not shooting high
Not finding the cappers on either the Crossen site or in a google search. Any ideas?
how about a video on period caps? How to produce your own percussion caps?
Would love that. Not quite as easy to do, but it can definitely be done. There are many ways if you're not making replicas, but are just making caps that work. They have lead and mercury though, both of which can be bad for your health. I believe that most modern primers still contain lead and that's where the lead exposure from shooting comes from (and not the bullets). Mercury one's are corrosive, so you have to clean your gun out after each use. I believe Mercury Fulminate and Lead Styphnate ae the two main chemicals used in percussion caps.
Can you find a competent gunsmith who can hone out those chambers to what you need? I would use my Emco Compact 5 to turn a new pressing plug with the correct shape of the end so as not to deform your standard bullet.
Are under sized chambers becoming a problem in new revolvers?
Absolutely yes
Tooling wearing out. I would much rather have undersize than over size.....undesize I can correct.