When you supersize the airforce you get this…- F-16XL
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The fighter maffia where not good designers
They also said that these things are useless: radar, radio, advanced sensors, missiles and other things that are crucial in today’s air to air landscape
Didnt they also try and use civilian handheld radios for communication?
What do you mean? How could early World War 2 air doctrine be outdated???
@@Willtabixx they wanted no radio at all I believe
Only after pressure from the usaf did they add a radio
Literally stopped watching when Pierre Sprey's photo popped up.
@pseudotasuki
🤣
Glad I'm not alone.
*Pierre Sprey* : claims to have designed the F-16/15
*H.J. Hillaker* : "You're not that guy."
Pierre Sprey actually claimed to designed the F-15 and F-35 but not the F-16
@@Steve_Raglan_aka_William_Afton no what till his death he hated the f35 not surprising as he cant wrap his head around anything
“I’m that guy”
lol is that u amos
Pierre sprey was NOT an aviation engineer. He was a record producer, do research
Finally someone who understands
The whole fighter mafia is a load of shit.
@@M18Hellcat-17 agreed
@@Spaceman20150 well of course, I actually did my own research and watched laserpig
@@Willtabixx yeah
The fighter maffia was conplete bullshit and if they got their way the f16 would NOT look like it does now
When he said fighter mafia, the laserpig inside me woke up
Bro I feel you.
Me too, real engineer also made the same mistake
It felt like Lazerpig was coming inside of me
@@felixknorpp2803 pause. I understand what you mean. I agree but..... Pause
The Light Fighter Mafia (later rebranded itself the "Fighter Mafia" after the F-15 was a rousing success that combined high performance and heavy payload in one airframe) was far less influential than they want people to think in historical retrospect.
They were right in broad strokes, but the way they were right is actually extremely trivial (and they were extremely guilty of pushing things like James Burton's horrifically flawed "Blitzfighter" concept that would have gotten every single man flying it killed - and no, Blitzfighter was not a "precursor" to the A-10 Warthog, it was an attempt to design a smaller, stripped-down, COMPLETELY VULNERABLE A-10 Warthog and it was laughed out of the room every time it was introduced). "A plane with high thrust and low weight will be a better dogfighter than a plane with moderate thrust and high weight"? NO FUCKING SHIT!
The LFM wanted to take the things that made the F-16 a worthwhile fighter aircraft away from it, and leave it as a single-engine light fighter with a maximum capacity of four Sidewinders - and they didn't even really want the Sidewinders.
Oof, lol
Yeah
I'm half convinced the USAF went ahead with the LWF program just to get these guys to shut up.
yea like how do people still believe there shit
one of them wanted the f15 to carry all its fuel externaly and glide back to base
@@croc-biteplays5337 the F-16, honestly should have had a more capable radar and more fuel from the outset. The viper has to sortie with bags for just about everything, and that’s a problem.
Pierre sprey and the fighter mafia being given any credit is a massive red flag to the validity of anything said in this video tbh
They were horrible designers with wrong predictions, Sprey wasnt even a designer he was a jazz label producer who lied to gain fame with his ludicrous claims
Sprey was a scammer who was eventually proved wrong. Even though the Gulf War proved him and his fellow travelers in the liberal media wrong, he tried to point to that war as proof of what he had advocated. That's hutzpah. It's amazing anyone listened to him, and that was only due to his skill at self-promotion.
I find it funny that Hillaker was the only member of the Fighter Mafia who was actually qualified to design a plane, and he tends to be among the lesser known members due to being one of the more reserved ones and even began to distance himself from the group in later years, wich I think speaks volumes.
Still sad to see the blasphemy of Fighter Mafia being spread around, I've lost all respect for Pierre Spray. And regarding the F16XL, regarding how much of a significant improvement it was in all aspects, from weaponry, range, payload, fuel economy, etc; the air force really should've kept the F16XL. Would've opened up so many options for it today.
Lol my man actually hyping up the Fighter Mafia
The F-16XL has nothing in common with the Eurocanards. The cranked arrow wing was designed for super-cruise, not for high manoeuvrability.
Nice thing about the 16 being a cheap parts collection and modular from the start is that it can also serve as the basis for a shitload of experiments, hence why NASA loves them as a starting point.
Ahh the falcon dorito
*Wizard squadron flashbacks*
"No rules in a dogfight. You just have to take the enemy down."
PJ : "Target Acquired. There's Four of Them!.
They Approaching on The Front"
This is why we have LazerPig on speed dial.
So he can say incorrect things and call people names?
@@zee_terminator2850And be a pig?
@@Sveta7 i mean thats just by the nature of his stupidity
@@zee_terminator2850 Oh no, show us where on the T-14 the bad Scotsman touched you...
oh boy oh boy he did not just say engineers and fighter mafia in the same sentence
Oh, to see it come back, with Conformal Fuel Tanks, DSI air intake, GE engine with thrust vectoring and bl. 70 built and avionics, hardpoints rewired for SDBs / JAGMs.... and YF-16 vertical stabilizer for good measure.
The rumored F-36 Kingsnake makes use of a wing similar to the F-16XL.
Let's call it what it is: Fantasized. Not "rumored." The F-16 and F-35 are both built by Lockheed Martin. There is NO REALISTIC WAY that LM is going to offer air forces a product that internally competes with their own flagship aircraft.
@@katherineberger6329the UK could do with f16's. The eurofighter aint that good imma be real
@@katherineberger6329 Then why are they in the competition for the NGAD program? A program that will replace their flagships.
@@katherineberger6329there is more than one role needing played by aircraft. It isn’t one that rules them all.
The USAF has no need for a jet like that to replace the F16
Ah, the American version of the Saab 35 Draken.
true XD
same profile as the Swedish J35 in the -60s. due to export regulations, the USA was not allowed to buy combat aircraft from Sweden then and tried the same profile on the F16 model.
Yes the F-16XL was a good plane, but so was the F-15E and that plane just fit the strike fighter needs better. Remember, this was a competition to replace the F-111 so it had big shoes to fill in speed, range and payload capacity.
Wasn't the F-111 already meant for a ground attack role.
@@merafirewing6591 You are correct, the Aardvark was a Tactical Bomber. The F-16XL was primarily there to fix one of the biggest problems with the F-16, no range. We'd laugh while at Red Flag, when the F-16's would have to fly out last and return first in a mission package, due to their .7 (7/10ths of an hour) average mission times (without external bags). The Blk 50 and up gets an extra 30% or so with CFTs The F-15's could clock 1.5 mission times and my F-111's could do 2.1 on internal fuel only. The base F-16 had to have inflight refueling to carry a load and have range.
@@paulholmes672 a shame that the F-111 was retired.
@merafirewing6591 You are correct. The AMP (Avionics Modification Program) was in full swing but due to the Air Force trying to talk Congress into 3 to 400 more F-22's, by getting rid of all unwanted airframes, they happily yanked them out of depot, unfinished and scrapped them as soon as they could. AMP gave the Vark a full glass cockpit, dual laser gyros, and a bunch of other systems. The F-15E is a good airplane, but it can not do the same nighttime low level (200 ft) penetration effectively. Essentially, it's an accurate higher level bomb truck with some air defense capabilities. It IS a moot point, though, as the F-111 would have only lasted a few more years anyway, the Aussies had them until 2010 and they were still relevant then. Loved the airplane!
More accurately the Air Force determined that the F-15E would be easier to upgrade in the future
People seldom realize just how good the F-14,F-15,F-16 & F-18 really are. All you have to do is look at all the different fighter designs leading up to the teen series designed in the 1970s. Then look at the new fighter designs after the teen series was adopted. There have been four completely different designs and only two of those have been adopted since the teen series came out in the 1970s, those are the F-22 & F-35. But we are still building new F-15, F-16 and F-18 fighters today roughly 50 years after their introduction. The designers really did an amazing job with the designs in the 1970s.
SCAMP was original purpose of the XL, not multirole combat. You don't supercruise and maneuver at supersonic speed when lugging bombs under the wings. The emphasis on bombing came later when the design was repurposed and entered in the Enhanced Tactical Fighter competition, was was won by the F-15E.
The video omits the fact that the XL didn't really achieve supercruise until it was later given a more powerful engine by NASA. It also doesn't mention that the XL was inferior to the production F-16 in subsonic high G maneuvering due to greater energy bleed.
AMERICAN DORITO PLANE
Doritos are just nachos with cheese🤨
Idk what I'm doing
That's the F-22 transformer
@@mig2fivethe superior version
Yes!?!?😊
Funny how the Fighter mafia claims to hate missiles while they claim to build aircraft with lots of missiles on them
This gives me Ace Combat nostalgia
F-16XL does exist in ace combat 7. One problem, that is locked behind a paywall, so that's that.
Is that the ketsusjin Studio game? Ive been trying to find it but havent got a gripe of It so Far. Loved riding on the F86 at high speeds using WEP hehehehej
@@RafaelGarcia-od5rbno, ace combat is made by Bandai namco
@@hi-Larry-ous And Project ACES
This is one of my all time favorite 'what-if' fighters!
I would love to see your take on the Lockheed Martin FB22, which is the ultimate 'I wish they built it' plane IMO!
Along with the RAH-66 Comanche. Damn, I love this helicopter 🥰
f16 in an oversized hoodie
The Thicc F 16 would have been a fine addition to the USAF. Just like the F 23 Black Widow
Indeed.........indeed
_*Wizard 1 happy noises_
After I got to sit in the F16 as a kid when my did flew the BudLight MicroJet in the Airshows, I was hooked on it!
It's still my favorite fighter...
I'm surprised those new integrated Fuel Tanks don't affect the Performance of it
F-16XL is what the F-102 Delta Dagger, F-106 Delta Dart, F-104 Starfighter and F-4 Phantom supposed to be. However, the problem with the F-16XL is the intended role has been filled by F-15C and F-15EX, also the F-16V and the Navy counterpart F/A-18E/F can do the same ground strike missions at the same time carry air to air missiles for self defense. On the other hand, how to compete against Rafale in the international market is a big question.
The F16XL lost out to the F15E Strike Eagle, that was the only reason. F15EX and Rafale were much later and never were contenders.
The F-16XL was a contender for the Advanced Tactical Fighter (which the F-15E won because of upgradability) role not an interceptor and many of the technologies developed for it have found their way into newer F-16 variants
I’ve always wondered why this project couldn’t be revived and sold primarily to foreign governments.
I also have thought that the F-16XL could have been paired with a revived F-20 program, the proposed upgraded F-5, as an export only, technology transfer program. Both being sold as a low cost, multi-role, air/ground/interceptor system, with overlapping technologies, interchangeable avionics and engines.
Why when they can buy the F-15E and later block F-16s...
@@soulsphere9242 International export technology sharing, like the Korean KF-21, on a single model, that does the missions of both the F-16 and F-15; to be manufactured in the buyer's country, without having to turn over the technology to build anything equivalent to a Block 70 F-16 and/or F-15QA?
If the F-16XL had been built, it would have had to replace either the base F-16, or the F-15E. The budget wasn't there to do reasonable numbers of all three. You could have replaced the base F-16, but that would result in fewer total as due to the increased cost of the XL. You could have replaced the F-15E, but that would have been buying less capable airframes for the same cost., especially maintenance costs due to it being a third separate airframe.
In the end, it was just more cost-effective to use a high/low procurement of F-15Es and F-16s.
Wrong, it would be replacing the then recently retired F-111 actually.
@@HYDRAdude It would have replaced the F-111, but the F-111 wasn't retired until the mid 90s.
It would have replaced the F-111, and the F-15E would have never been built. That's how military competitions work.
The USAF may use the F16 for strike missions a lot but for many export customers it is their air superiority aircraft. Hillaker got it right the first time. The second version F16XL would have been great for its intended role too.
I have been waiting for a video on this aircraft. Thank you.
The F16XL is my favorite jet that never got a chance. It's a gorgeous design.
Wing planform is suspiciously akin to the genius SAAB Draken.
Somewhere, I heard that this plane needed longer runways. That's a deal-breaker for a combat aircraft.
The fact that the XL never went into production should have been a crime. :)
6:31 I seriously love how those Alaskan F-16s are painted with the Russian liveries 😂
Someone’s gotta be the opfor in exercises.
Aggressor Squadron
The problem with the F-16XL is that for purely the strike fighter role, the F-15E Strike Eagle was better. And for a multi-role fighter...it's a lot more expensive than the standard F-16.
same profile as the Swedish J35 in the -60s. due to export regulations, the USA was not allowed to buy combat aircraft from Sweden then and tried the same profile on the F16 model.
the Super Phantom upgrade and the F-16XL are the alternate reality we never got.
Thank you for the video, I read an article about these about 1990 or so and wondered why I never saw them again. It's no wonder they were outclassed by the f-15. Another mystery solved.
Imagine this with the 3d thrust vectoring F-16 engine built for the Vista, you’d get the F-16U, “U” standing for “ultimate”
delete the ) at the end of the url cause i cant edit on mobile
No... what happened is that the Phantom IIs were kicking butt!
However.... after a friendly kill incident, the "Brass" ordered thereafter that all engagements must be in visual range.... and so, the Phantom that had no internal Gun had a major disadvantage since the Phantom II was pretty much designed as a middle boat designed for long range engagements.... not dog fighting.....
F-16 Extra Large is my favorate plan of all time...truely appreciated that you made this great video! :D
US Air force wanted F-16s.. The designers had half of DARPA funds..
just to create an F-16 based on Tejas Aircraft of India 😂😂😂
Bro the F16 is 40 years older than the Tejas. Wth are you talking about?
The F-16XL was designed and built in the early '80s, the HAL Tejas was designed in the '90s and built in the 2000s based on the Dassault Mirage series.
F-16XL was definitely one of the great what if
They should call the F-16XL the Magnum.
F-16 eXceeding the Limit
I always liked this thing cause it's like someone needed a new truck design, so they started with their best little 2 seat sportscar design.
The F-16XL should return as the F-16EX, and become the new standard for both domestic and export F-16s. Esp. as range and carrying capacity on a relative budget becomes important again.
So apparently the Intrepid museum has been hiding an F-16?! Finally saw it when I went for the eclipse, and dang, it's adorably (and lethally) tiny.
Did you get to Totality under clear skies? We ended up in Jackman, ME.
@@BlueTrane2028 from how far off, what state
@@virtual5448 I live just outside of Philadelphia, PA.
@@BlueTrane2028 decently far from us then, long way to go for an eclipse, i went to houlton, its only about 3O minutes from me
@@virtual5448 I’d go continents away if I could afford to. By distance we were 30 miles closer than 2017’s trip to Cookeville TN.
It's a shame that we never got to see the XL in service, but hey the Strike Eagle is one helluva badass. So no complaints.
Yea
You are first!
@@FoundAndExplained thanks man I've been here before 80k subs
Only if it was bit cheaper so it could compete with F-16 not F-15
Not to be nitpicking, but I have to nitpick - at 11:35 ; the European 4th generation fighters did not follow the designed proved effective by the F-16XL, the delta and double delta wing had already been proven long before that (for example the Saab Draken first flew in 1955, and Saab Viggen first flew in 1967). Europe always liked the short takeoff/landing distances that the delta wing provided, even better with the canards.
With that said, the F-16XL is a beautiful plane, and it's truly a shame it never got to be put in operational service.
"Strike Falcon"
Thanks, Found & Explained. I need me some laserpig thinking.
Over last 30 years, I still wonder why F-16XL had never been produced.
I've seen that exact F-16XL (the one at 11:07) as a static display on the apron at the 2022 Edwards AFB Airshow.
I was hoping for you to make a video about the f-16XL , thanks you very much ❤
I remember first seeing this version or something very much like it in a Chevy Chase film from 1983 called ‘Deal of the Century’ which also featured combat between it and an advanced UAV. The movie wasn’t very good but I thought those scenes were pretty rad for the time.
The F-16XL looks like it took the same design direction / logic with mirage F1 that was primarily ground attack aircraft and secondary a " fighter"
Also, the XF-17 later became the F/A-18 for the Navy and it also used a bit of the "cranked wing" design.
YF*
This cranked wign design is perfect for high G maneuvers, because it helps the airflow to stick to the wings (because it creates vortices) =)
i know someone who has a RC jet one of these and it uses a real jet engine,cool to know some of its history
To see some of the footage -- that was great, the way that the author tried to 'talk up' the XL (I assume it was because he liked it -- not practical -- that's a kids' concept) showed that they knew of very little in both comparison(s) and capabilities.
Didn’t know that the F16 got a child with the J35
The Air Force generals in charge are F-15 veterans. Who wanted the F-15E over the F-16XL. Had the air force ever ordered additional F-16’s the XL would likely have been produced
The last tranche of F-16s ordered were delivered from 2006-2010. We got a LOT of Vipers, and relatively few Eagles. The XL was proposed to replace the F-111, a very large tactical bomber.
The air force did order more F-16s, but they stuck to the standard design.
@@katherineberger6329 Pretty sure the USAF got its last F-16s around 1997 (and the last of the F-15Es were around 2001). But yes, this was all long after the XL was canned.
While I love the idea of the F-16XL, I wonder what would’ve happened to European aerospace if it was approved. Going by what happened with the F-100, F-104, and the F-4, we’ve might not’ve had such beautiful European designs.
F-16 XL:
The Falcon, but Mirage
If should F-16Xl in production, a nice US Army joke would be: Send the "Delta Force".
I love the f-16, it's a beauty
2:37 ND Air National Guard Happy Hooligans, my local unit hell ya.
Yes my favorite jet from Ace Combat
7:24 wow, nice footage
The air force hardly ever justifies it's choice. It's stupid because there are always better options. Like the Yf22 and the yf23. The yf23 was the better choice, but the looks of the yf22 won.
Trivia: the YF 22 has bellyflopped on the ground twice once before it went into production.
The F16XL is being reevaluated because it has the same number of weapon stations as an A10. For much of the last year the A10s were being tested in a different role in the Pacific. A MLD launch platform. The problem is there are less than 300 serviceable ones left. That is why none will go to Ukraine. A large number of MLDs plus a respectable range. The F16XL or its upgraded version would fill that role nicely. It’s all about the money as usual.
Can we all just take a sec to appreciate the Nasa livery on F-16 XL!
When your country has air supremacy almost instantly in any conflict, you are going to need multirole fighters.
Love the F16XL in every way, what could have been the cousin to fly next to the f16 on missions. Even though not successful the f16XL shows many similarities to what happened with the F15 and F15E, the two single greatest aircraft ever made
Each aircraft is defined by parameters such as wing/loading and thrust/weight. Someone is lying here. For a maximum engine power of 29,500 lbf and a mass of 48,000 lb, you cannot get anything other than a thrust/weight of 0.61, which means that the engine is too heavy and the rate of climb cannot be 62,000 ft/min but 27,604 ft/min. There is also mention of an engine upgrade to the regular F 16 that allows a rate of climb of 62,000 ft/min, but then the F 16XL would have a rate of climb of only 34,229 ft/min.
War Thunder Community: its not accurate enough here's some classified documents on the f16s wing specs to prove that I'm right
I actually have a manual of the F-15
Now I'm crazy sure but what if there was a modern variant of the English Electric Lightning or MiG-21 Fishbed or F-104 Starfighter
XF-108 Rapier
@@everypitchcounts4875 I'll give it a look
The XL would have have dominated today. Foriegn airforces would have placed a lot of orders for it.
The XL wasn't going to win against the Eagle. It's unfortunate indeed. The XL came along at the wrong time.
There's two Decepticons in Transformers called Needlenose and Windsweeper that transforms into one of those.
"We didn't lose. But we could have won bigger."
I think the french Mirage series were more famous compared to the Saab Bracken lol, these delta wing aurcraft were exported all over the world
Japans F-2 is kinda a F-16XL, except for the wings.
I have a hypothesis, that is if these went into production the IAF would have purchased up to 16 of them. Then nobody's Mooslim nuclear weapons reactor program would have been out of range of Israel. Also, the platform would have given the U.S. air force and its Allies significant reach in the Pacific ocean. Wonder for a moment how that matters today? So they cooked up an uneven match with an enlarged F-15 to give BillyBoy the President political cover from the Israelis for ditching the program.
the Rafale, grippen and Eurofighter actually have straight delta wings, not cranked delta wings. They also all have Canards, which the F-16XL didn't have
Yep. The design philosophy is completely different. The video is kind of trash.
You should take a look at the scimitar wing of the Handley Page Victor if you want an interestingly shaped wing
Honestly people, how do you think McDonald's got the "Super Size Me' idea. 😂😂😂 You gotta admit it, the F-16 XL is a great looking aircraft. Plus the F-16 has always been 1 of my favorite aircraft of all time. It turned out to be an outstanding platform that many countries realized & are still using.
I like the look of the F-16XL however, the viper just looks completely menacing, ready to tear other planes apart.
So I’m kinda glad we (Denmark) got the F-16
F16XL with a power plant that’s more powerful would’ve gone crazy.
I'm not certain on laws regarding military aircraft NOT adopted by the US. I dont know they have the same restrictions preventing the manufacturer from building a model and shopping it around. I do realize that other nations would hesitate to invest in an aircraft that the US turned down,. This was the sad fate of the NorthropF20 Tigershark. Then again this would be different as the Tigershark was a completely new aircraft and the XL was truly a heavily modified F16, a well known design. This is simply another aircraft I'd had loved to seen come to fruition along with the YF23 and Super Tomcat.
The MIC should have sold it abroad. Not everyone can afford or qualify for an F15, so give them the choice of this. I mean that's long past now but its a lost opportunity.
The XL was cool but didn't have the range/payload/BFM/radar/higher G-limit as the Mudhen. The Strike was the right choice
Both of the F-16XLs are at Edwards AFB's Flight Test Museum's on base air part.
One of the failures to be built was a fly-off against the original F16 where it's air-air abilities showed it to be compromised. Plus the newest F16 added leading edge and additional integral fuel to its wings "borrowing" some of the XL advantages. Just look at a brand new F16, it's obvious
One of my all-time favorite X-planes.
Eurofighter has that title over the F-16 lol... F-16 got whooped multiple times by the Typhoon XD
And the Typhoon has been "whooped" multiple times by the F-16. They fly and train with and against each other regularly. The Typhoon would have the advantage in close, but a modern or modernised F-16 would have the advantage at longer changes due to better radar.
See Lazerpig who debunks the Fighter mafia. Its founding/head members in particular.