The Vedas and their Monsters (with Michael Fiden)
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- čas přidán 13. 06. 2023
- Michael Fiden (University of Texas) answers questions about the Vedas and especially their demons and monsters from Patreon supporters of Dr. Jackson Crawford in this live Zoom conversation taped June 4, 2023. For more, see sites.utexas.edu/sanskrit
Jackson Crawford, Ph.D.: Sharing real expertise in Norse language and myth with people hungry to learn, free of both ivory tower elitism and the agendas of self-appointed gurus. Visit jacksonwcrawford.com/ (includes bio and linked list of all videos).
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At around 55', Jackson jokes that "we think of angels with swords, not rifles". As a matter of fact, prominently displayed in the cathedral in Cuzco, Peru, there is a very old painting of St. Michael, who is traditionally thought of as a scary guy with a flaming sword, with which he once struck down Satan and is said to cut sin from the hearts of men. An uncompromising figure. But in this painting he has a musket, and is dressed like a Spaniard of the Conquest. The painting is said to have been the work of a native, whose idea of a truly scary figure was inevitably a European with a gun. And no joke.
A European with a gun displaced the original bloodthirsty gods. That says something right there.
Relationship between Sanskrit and Malayalam is like that between Latin and English. Malayalam is a Dravidian language full of Sanskrit derived vocabulary
The study of the Vedas is fascinating. For the tiny bit I know, I know even less of the demons connected to them. It's really a lifelong study. Thank you, great guest, great video.
When I was studying Sanskrit I used “Samskrta Subodhini: A Sanskrit Primer” by Deshpande and had a good experience with that
This is nice. For whatever reason, works by Indians, especially those from India, are not given any shine in Western academia regarding "Indology" and even Sanskrit. Almost uniquely so amongst the 'ethnic' specific fields.
@@anonymouslyopinionated656 This one’s legit. It’s from U Michigan Press I believe.
You’re so lucky you got to interview Michael. He’s such a blast to be around.
Im learning Taittiriya Shakha of Krishna Yajurveda from a Nambudiri guruji. Dr. Crawfords last video on veda inspired me to learn
Go to " Arya samaj" Gurukul or Temple they will teach about all about it.
These Vedas came into existence between 5 to 3 years 😊😊😊
1:02:01 The BIG Rig, yes, pls encourage him to follow that thread of an idea..
WOW! this is a great one. you got answers, discussion about questions i did not remember i had. MUCH appreciation to Michael and u 2 Jackson..
Re : the topic discussed around 20:00. A lot of intentional borrowing of words and ideas from Sanskrit happened in Gujarati - a western Indian language. During the golden age of its literature in late 19th century and early 20th - called the scholar era, the prominent writers and poets also more or less knew classical Sanskrit. There’s also a name for words directly borrowed from Sanskrit - તત્સમ ( as is ). And that word ironically is also a Sanskrit compound word.
The first known grammar of language came from a book that also gave grammar of Sanskrit and other languages. So there are two parallel currents in Gujarati - natural and cultured. Natural dialects have their own unique features. And on top there’s the cultured Gujarati. Almost like Sanskrit and Prakrit. And you can tell when a speaker is trying to speak “clean” Gujarati but is not used to it. I can reliably place a person based on how they speak gujarati. Hell I can even place them based on their accent when they speak English, if they haven’t worked on it.
To the question asked about Hindi, its predecessors are Hindavi with significant influences from Bhojpuri (Prakrit languages spoken in today’s Uttar Pradesh).
The Vrtra and Vrtra's mother thing has some Typhon/Echidna vibes, especially coupled with Zeus and Apollo contesting with them.
Rudra is much more ferocious than the later Shiva. The worship of Rudra from Vedic ages continues in today’s Hinduism as the chant/prayer/rite called “Rudram” - frequently recited in Hindu homes to the present.
7:40 Atharva Veda can be understood as the "Popular religion" as opposed to "Priestly religion" of Ríg Veda. As some rituals there have contemproray descendants still which technically aren't "worshipping" but "warding" or "magic".
Mind kind of blown by the possibility of Indra not being originally a storm deity. I'd already spent a lot of time looking into various supposedly storm related monster battling deities who turned out to only be storm deities in 100 year out of date German studies but was sure that at least Indra had to be a real storm god.
Maybe this discussion could be segmented before 25 min on timeline...and offered as an intro. The rest is closer in scope to title given. Many Respectful Thanks! Success to Michael Fiden! Many Thanks for Posting & Participation.
etad cAlanacitram mama manase ati jñAnapoSakam.
This video is knowledge-conducive to my mind
I remember watching some stuff a while back about bronze age culture and the PIE people and it pointed out many similarities between Hercules, Thor and Indra. Then the guy talked about an archeological find up where we know the PIE people lived where there was a bronze club was found in a grave with a man. It was shaped just like the weapon that Indra is described as having.
The big take away the guy had is that they probably stim from the same striking deity. We'd have to remember that the formation of such a being would have come from a time of stone tools and potentially predated the bronze age. So if we think of stones striking each other or bronze striking stone there would be a loud thunderous noise. Potentially a spark of light.
It seems like in both lines of languages and myths there seems to be a connection between striking and thunder. And of course if something gets associated with thunder it soon is associated with lightning. But most likely the dude started out as big strong guy with club/hammer.
I’m sure you can find this in plenty of non-IE pagan religions.
Hercules≠ Indra and Thor.
@@dharmrakshak6735 didn't say he did, but they share general themes. One of the big ones is large striking weapon.
@@AndrewTheFrank Sounds like one of Dan Davis' videos, he's an English author who writes pre-historic heroic fantasy. He seems pretty good at reseach but isn't beholden to scholarly standards.
Maces are common in Egyptian and Sumerian culture so there's nothing specially Indo-European about them.
Storm/battle metaphores/similies are common no matter the technology level. Assault Rifle is a translation of German Sturmgerhwer after all.
@@AC-dk4fp yeah that might be the guy.
There isn't a claim that maces or clubs are unique to PIE. Rather the connection is that there seems to be a common theme of a type of deity in the PIE derived pantheons of club/hammer deities which often later become thunder/lightning related. A similarity as well is that words for strike are often synonymous with words for thunder.
And yes he isn't beholden to scholarly standards (of which personally having been trained in such am not personally impressed by) he does seem to do good research on scholarly work. And personally think he isn't making huge leaps and conclusions like many others are want to do.
32:02 ‘sons and cows, usually….rain’
Re. the separable preverbs in Vedic and (possibly) in other I.E. languages, I've seen a Latvian verse in J. Endzelin's 'Comparative phonology and morphology of the Baltic languages' with a verb prefix at the start of the verse, the rest of the verb at the end, and everything else between them. Surely that used to be more common in earlier stages of the language, but unfortunately, Baltic languages weren't attested until fairly recently so nobody knows. Something very similar still existed in Old Irish too, although it was much more limited there since the rest of the verb never strayed too far away from its preverb - i.e. object personal pronouns could be inserted after the preverb (i.e. suffixed to it), as in: ad-ciam (we see); ata-ciam (we see them), ad/t- being the prefix/preverb.
how interesting. I read translations into English years ago.
55:30 chariots are also archaic for the codifier of the Ilias (Homer). as far as I can remember he presents the heroes just using them to arrive at the scene of the battle and not to fight at all.
that was actually a valid usage of them even at the time that they were more in vogue. chariot dragoons if you will.
Yo this was super interesting. I just finished my master's thesis in engineering and had friends working on dissertations and ours seem insanely easy in comparison. I only had to learn C++ to do my thesis, not an entire ancient ritual language.
By now C++ is an ancient ritual language.
@@TheMaginorHave the Vedas been rewritten in Rust yet?
Question for Michael, in case he's keeping an eye on the comments for this video:
If Vedic Sanskrit was already no longer a regularly spoken tongue when the Rg Veda was composed, then how exactly does that jibe with some [I don't know how many--maybe it's just one?] of the verses in it being, as I've heard, verbatim with verses in the Avesta? Were they composed in one language and then just translated into the other?
Vedic period of Ancient India, & the period of Avesta runs parallel, Middle Rigvedic period is supposed to be the early recordings of Avesta.
Everything happened after the war of 10 kings mentioned in Rigved.
Sorry, we got really chatty that day. I sorta started something with my Rikki-Tikki-Tavi reference 😆
For an expert, the speaker confuses Brahma with Brahman, but they are entirely different!
he's getting the entities confused because they have the same etymology. he likely means to posit that there is no brahma in the RV, and the Brahma evolved as a conept from Brahman, hence the linguistic similarity.
think about it... a very non-involved background god dealing with the essence of all creation..
Slight correction on Jainism and intention. Intention does play some role in karmic build up, despite karma being material. This aspect of Jaina thought isn't really my expertise, so take what I say with a grain of salt, but intention is important insofar as it primes an jīva (soul) to accept karmic matter. As I understand, just to what extent intent matters is a big question, but most Jains would say that someone taking care when walking, but happened to step on a crush some bug despite this, would at least acrue less karma than someone who was careless, or worse, someone who deliberately sought out the bug to crush. I believe the metaphor is that the passions (i.e. intent) make the soul like a sponge, ready to soak up karma.
jackson "serious face" crawford
Buddhists will not agree that they are closer to Vedas as Hindus
yes, because a lot of original point of differentiation was a rejection of the vedic order. that doesn't mean that it didn't stem from the same cultural milleu and share ideological influences. a lot if it has to do with preserving an identity, nothing else. modern hinduism in practice pays lip service to the primacy of the vedas, nothing more.
@@anonymouslyopinionated656modern hinduism is nothing but stone worshipping cult.
först
I am a Brahmin 🕉️
You are cast based Brahmin not actual Brahmin.
@@Sharmila-hr2ru belonging to good Brahmin family definitely makes a difference , not all people are good it's kalyug
so?
@@anonymouslyopinionated656 I am proud of my ancestors