Tolkien and Norse Myth (with Dr. Kelsey A. Fuller-Shafer)
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- čas přidán 27. 08. 2024
- Dr. Kelsey A. Fuller-Shafer (Fairfield University) answers questions about J.R.R. Tolkien's use of Norse mythology in his works from Patreon supporters of Jackson Crawford in a live Zoom interview recorded July 2, 2023.
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The first shot of the video was very Simon Roper-esque
I think all creative and introspective type people benefit from nature exposure. The best inspiration comes from there I think.
That’s what I was thinking
A crossover of two of my favourite topics. Great work as always.
The Lord of the Rings was the first stretch of my path that brought me to your channel
Such a cool video!!! Thank you for your time🖤🖤
I don't know a great deal about Tolkien, or Norse mythology and so this was such a fascinating interview! 🤠💜
Cool interview, something I've always wanted to know a little more about. The Frodo/Faramir One-Ring dialogue is a deep cut of Norse Lore for sure. Really neat to learn that. I went back in read that passage of the book again for better appreciation of it.
A big thanks to Dr. Crawford and an even bigger thank you to Dr. Fuller-Shafer, best of luck with the book launch!
Stay well out there everyone!
The passage Dr. Fuller-Shafer is referring to starting at the 14:45 mark was eventually published, in Morgoth’s Ring, the tenth volume of the History of Middle-earth series. It’s a dialogue entitled ‘Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth’ (The Debate of Finrod and Andreth), and it alludes not to a ‘second coming,’ but to the Incarnation (i.e. the ‘first coming’ of Christ). It’s the only place in any of the published Legendarium texts in which Tolkien directly addresses-albeit still obliquely-the figure of Christ.
A few choice excerpts from the passage in question:
‘They say,’ answered Andreth: ‘they say that the One will himself enter into Arda, and heal Men and all the Marring from the beginning to the end. This they say also, or they feign, is a rumour that has come down through years uncounted, even from the days of our undoing.’
[…]
‘[T]he saying of Hope passes my understanding. How could Eru enter into the thing that He has made, and than which He is beyond measure greater? Can the singer enter into his tale or the designer into his picture?’
‘He is already in it, as well as outside,‘ said Finrod. 'But indeed the “in-dwelling“ and the “out-living“ are not in the same mode.’
‘Truly,’ said Andreth. ‘So may Eru in that mode be present in Eä that proceeded from Him. But they speak of Eru Himself entering into Arda, and that is a thing wholly different. How could He the greater do this? Would it not shatter Arda, or indeed all Ea?’
‘Ask me not,’ said Finrod. ‘These things are beyond the compass of the wisdom of the Eldar, or of the Valar maybe. But I doubt that our words may mislead us, and that when you say “greater” you think of the dimensions of Arda, in which the greater vessel may not be contained in the less.
‘But such words may not be used of the Measureless. If Eru wished to do this, I do not doubt that He would find a way, though I cannot foresee it. For, as it seems to me, even if He in Himself were to enter in, He must still remain also as He is: the Author without. And yet, Andreth, to speak with humility, I cannot conceive how else this healing could be achieved. Since Eru will surely not suffer Melkor to turn the world to his own will and to triumph in the end. Yet there is no power conceivable greater than Melkor save Eru only. Therefore Eru, if He will not relinquish His work to Melkor, who must else proceed to mastery, then Eru must come in to conquer him.’
One of the best interviews so far! I was aware of some of the obvious connections between noese myth and Tolkien, but this was deeper and my mind was blown several times.
As I recall, Quenya was the one based on Finnish, and I'm less confident in saying that I think Sindarin was based on Welsh.
Yes, she got that mixed up.
There was also Adunaic, which I think was inspired by Gothic. @@revylokesh1783
Yes, Sindarin was definitely based on Welsh.
Also I've wanted to see someone redo LOTR in the style of Norse poetry forever. This interview was super cool
You very well might already be aware of it, and its not exactly what you are asking for, but there is the book: "The Lays of Beleriand" which contains some of the stories that eventually became part of the Silmarillion -written in alliterative verse similar to Anglo Saxon poetry as well as some of the Norse poetry. (it is written in modern English though). One of the several "unfinished" versions of "Silmarillion" tales which Christopher Tolkien edited and presented in the History of Middle-earth series. If I am remembering correctly, it mostly contains poetic versions of the tale of Turin and that of Beren and Luthien. If you are not already familiar with this, it might be something you would enjoy.
Very familiar. That's not what I mean either but thank you for the thought.
Forgive my ignorance, but didn't Tolkien deliberately write in a style similar to Anglo-Saxon or Norse sagas when he wrote LotR?
@@Ammoniumbicarbonat there are elements of that yes, but it isnt fully in the poetic form of course. there are definitely loads of alliterative lines in the Lord of the Rings though, he certainly didnt completely abandon the form.
@@Fenyxfire ah well it was worth mentioning at least :)
I didn't see it popping up but the son of Eöl and Aredhel was called Maeglin.
There's the language of Rohan, which is essentially Old English, and the language of the Hobbits is related to it IIRC. But that's as far as Gemanic languages go in the legendarium, as far as I'm aware.
Yep, Tolkien basically took Mercian and made it the language of Rohan, they even call it the Mark or Riddermark.
That Mark cognate is also in Westmarch, eastmarch, etc.
@@rahilario Yep and in Denmark and in the French word margin, ultimately from the Old Frankish language
@@iceomistar4302 Not ultimately (unless you mean "margin" itself), because the root goes beyond Old Frankish all the way back to PIE, showing up in many other PIE languages afterwards that pre-date Old Frankish
Yes I mean the French form.
With the Tolien pantheon I didn't see it as being like a Catholic god with a pagan pantheon underneath it. The way I read it was being fairly Catholic. One God with many different Angels underneath them with different functions to fulfill. To me the theological set up of the world is fairly Catholic with a pagan coat of paint put upon it.
Yeah, like the one God and the Elohim (I think that's the term though it's been a minute since I read the Bible). But the angels in the old testament had much bigger roles I think than people might realize. Lucifer of course being the prime example, who was very, if not the most, prominent angel turning evil, and being allowed to exist, though being cast out along with a third of the other angels of whom he had corrupted or held some sort of sway over, of course just like Melchor being allowed to taint the song and allowed to exist.
Anyway all I mean to say is I agree with the "coat of paint" analogy. Though it is a rather thick coat of paint, so I suppose I can see how it could also be viewed as pagan Gods underneath the main God. Especially in the way the story is told.
@@nocturne000 i say it as i do because there are those that accuse angels in Christianity as being pagan, or Protestants accusing Catholics for being pagan because we believe in Angels (which are mentioned in scripture).
@@AndrewTheFrank I was raised Catholic. I totally understand why you say it that way and was just trying to agree. Hopefully that came across.
Don't get me started on more modern sects of Christianity, or at least certain churches. It's like they've never read scripture themselves and often just go with whatever their church leader says. I mean I suppose some Catholics do the same, but saying that you're Christian but don't believe in Angels, or that Angels are somehow pagan is just stupid. I mean then who came to Mary and told her she was going to birth the Christ then? I mean that's like one example of countless others.
You're right, that's really weird that there are Protestants that say angels are somehow pagan.
@@nocturne000 Hi, Protestant here! I do not know of any Protestant belief that would say that angels are pagan. We have concerns about the appearance of a few Catholic doctrines appearing to teach the direction of worship toward beings other than God, but angels are cool. Definitely in the book.
@@DuffTerrall Hello Protestant there! I should have said certain churches, and not protestants. I was responding hypothetically to a comment that made a claim that I thought would be very strange, since I had never heard of it before. I was raised catholic, and while I'll go to a Catholic church from time to time because I'm a dork who like the pomp of it all, I have a very strong issue with the ideals of other humans being "closer" to God than others. I don't believe in the human hierarchy of the Catholic church itself. Obviously to take all Protestants and put them in a single bubble would be foolhardy, and that wasn't what I was trying to convey. Thanks for reminding me of the importance of being very clear with what I say, especially about this subject.
I would've brought up Eowyn as Valkyrie. I think she contains too many allusions to the valkyries to be coincidence.
She's not a Valkyrie because the principal thing about Valkyries is in the name, they 'kyriss' the 'val', they choose the slaughtered corpses of the battlefield. Eowyn is pretty transparently a take-off of the mortal warrior-women who appear in Norse literature, such as Hervor from the Tyrfing Cycle, specifically down to how she eventually swears off fighting by marrying Faramir, which is one of the main ways in which these women typically find their stories ending in the sagas, excepting Hervor herself who dies iirc.
Also, valkyries in general come across as both war-loving and vexatious in the literature, and most of Tolkien's heroes, including Eowyn, are typically of the 'I'll fight, but I don't intrinsically love fighting or violence' sort.
@@kolsveinnskraevolding it's her relationship to and defense of theoden...the king at his last battle who falls to a monster and her status at his right hand as his cupbearer who offers drink to the victorious warriors of his hall that set me off noticing thiiiings
I don't make any allusions to Tolkien intentions. It's entirely possible for a person's influences to influence them unconsciously. Even someone as intelligent and deliberate as Tolkien. What I'm saying is she has too many allusions to valkyrieness to be total coincidence.
And Eowyn wanted to fight...to defend her lord. She takes on the mantle of warrior for the king of the hall...but changes when sheds that mantle for love.
Something about swan feather cloaks...
Also Rohan is basically a pull from Beowulf. Also theoden is seen as a embodiment of Northern ideals of courage. The valkyries could be argued to serve the same ideal as that's what they seek in the warriors they collect for Odin...presumably the parameters Odin dictates
On oaths, there's a good quote in LOTR , I think it's Gimli, says to Aragorn "Yet sworn word may strengthen the quaking heart." Aragorn replies "Or break it."
Deep Cut B-Side Christianity!! That is the best description of Gnosticism I’ve ever heard.
Amazing interview, absolute pleasure to watch 👌
Now that's an exciting topic
Even non-academic research is like that. Client calls up with a question... you just rummage around until an answer appears no matter what your formal coverage and research agenda is. (I worked for a research firm in Stamford, lived in Milford...) A most excellent discussion!
100% on the perception of time in recent years.
I love your observation that Elrond will not let the Fellowship swear an oath. I actually thought that was a little strange in terms of storytelling when I read it, but it makes sense in light of the Oatg of Feanor. Sidenote: the Oath of Feanor should be the next massive movie trilogy they make. There is so much material there! I would love to see someone flash out the Songs of Feanor as individuals, only some of whom come to understand the damage their oath has caused.
Anyone else notice the Ricki Ticki Tavi poster behind Mr. Crawford?
The rapture is not canon. To be reunited with their bodies will not happen and has never been declared in any of Christ’s teachings. But this nitpicking aside, it is awesome to listen to you two. The old faith is so exciting, and Tolkien made it into a modern tale of myth, philosophy, psychology, folklore, and real life teachings. Thank you
Thanks!
Quenya is the more Finnish-inspired language; Sindarin is more Celtic. Sorry to do a “well actually” here, but I found it necessary.
Can not wait thanks to listen to this one 🤘🏼🤘🏼🤘🏼 Skol from East Anglia
I recall seeing a filmed interview where Tolkien directly cites semitic language speaking cultures as the core inspiration of his dwarves. He describes them in a complex way that leads me to believe he wasn't intentionally invoking harmful tropes, but as Dr. Fuller-Shafer said he was a product of his time, as we all are.
Yeah, and about twenty years went by (and another world war) between the conception of the dwarves' language to his writing Gimli (in contrast to dwarves in his earlier Legendarium) as much more noble, much more human, much more relateable.
In that time he also showed Elvish racism to the Dwarves, as seen in his description of how early on the elves hunted them like animals, not knowing they were *people*
He does similar honour for the Pukel-men, the Druedain, seemingly standing in for remote tribes among the modern world... he calls out the Rohirrim (Anglo-Saxon/Britain stand-in) by saying to Theoden "stop hunting is like animals, you barbarians!" (paraphrased). I love it.
A product of his time, yes, but through his writing we also saw his ideas evolving, growing, improving ❤
Looking forward to her new book! We don't have long to wait now until October3.
Correction; it is Quenya (the language of the Noldor) that is inspired by Finnish. As Jackson rightly points out.
And there are in fact two Germanic languages in Middle-earth; Gothic is the Eotheod language, and Anglo-Saxon is Rohirric, its descendant. Christopher explores that in either UT or one of the HoME.
Did she say Eowyn wears white?
And Orks were supernatural? They are debased and tortured Humans.
Melkor wanted to destroy creation to remake it in his picture (though he could not create). Maioron (Sauron) wanted to reorder it, in order. It is in one of the HoME.
Dark-elves, as a 'vulgarized' (if Tolkien would have said) modern image, might be similar to Gongs or Kaukareldar in a certain degree, but they better fit to the 'elder' images of Andvari, etc., as such. But anyway the concept of Gongs was long abandoned, together with the 'off-spring' concepts of gods. So Middle-earth once had them at the idea-nucleation stage, and then lost them before c. 1930s. Additionally, Kawa/kawka should mean 'a bent figure' rather than 'dark'. Of course the term Dark-elves do exist, but as we all know they are not 'dark' in the sense of their lookings, nor of their hearts. Just attaching some more words.
@@jig5533 until HoME finally decided that Orks were debased humans, not elves or stone, I interpreted the Kaukareldar as the missing link between Elves and Orks.
"And there are in fact two Germanic languages in Middle-earth; Gothic is the Eotheod language, and Anglo-Saxon is Rohirric, its descendant" - three, if you include the names of all the Dwarves, which come from Old Norse.
But these are words or names taken directly from those languages. The two main languages that Tolkien invented are based (at least in terms of how the sound, and how they look when written down) are based on Welsh and Finnish, while Khuzdul is vaguely Semitic-sounding, the Black Speech has been said to resemble an ancient extinct language called Hurrian, and Entish just sounds like a lot of rumbling, booming sounds. None of his invented languages are explicitly based on a Germanic language, in other words.
@@OliverHarris1 the Dwarven names were given by the Northmen living with the Dwarves (that alliance is also described in HoME), but that is all we know of that. It is nowhere said that they spoke a language like Old Norse, though I agree that it can be interpreted as they did from the Edda names. With Eotheod and Rohirric we know from the passage I quoted. So two confirmed, three likely 😉
I would like to know why you say Khuzdul is Semitic? We know nothing Khuzdul except Gimli's warcry; have I forgotten something? I might have, I have moved seven times and lived eleven places in seven years, so my books are packed down.
@@PalleRasmussen I didn't say Khuzdul *is* Semitic - obviously it isn't in any real human language family. But it's been remarked on by many people (including Crawford in this video) that it resembles some Semitic languages, specifically Hebrew, which goes along with Tolkien's Dwarves being inspired partly by Jews in mediaeval Europe (as confirmed by Tolkien). And there's not just Gimli's war-cry: there's also Balin's tomb inscription.
Oh man, right off the bat, I need those Gondor and Rohan banners!
When a Norse character upholds an oath until the dire end in Norse myth... Is it supposed to be cautionary, exemplary, or... What? I'm confused.
Both cautionary and exemplary, I think. Keeping the oath is (usually) a good example, or at least a lot better than breaking it. But swearing most kinds of oaths is dangerous and unwise; it's blindly cursing yourself, and some characters are really flippant about it.
❤❤❤
You missed a perfect alliteration, the sun suddenly stabbed into your eyes!
Rapture isn't a thing Catholic theology.
Since most of our knowledge of gnosticism comes from the discovery of the Nag Hammadi library in 1945 and after it's unlikely other early christianities had much influence on Tolkien.
I immediately eye rolled at the concept of a catholic rapture and went to check the comments.
It is a common misunderstanding but no, our knowledge of Gnosticism does not come from the Nag Hammadi library, it comes from the church father heresiologists. The Nag Hamadi library gives primary sources that can be used to double check the biased claims of the heresiologists but the whole concept of 'gnosticism' is an interpetative framework that modern readers are overlaying on the Nag Hamadi texts to make sense of them. The Nag Hamadi texts weren't even the first Gnostic manuscripts to end up in the hands of European scholars.
There were neo-gnostic societies in the first half of the 20th century and the serious academic study of ancient gnosticism was started by Hans Jonas in the 1930s.
Impressive!
Even when Kelsey Fuller-Shafer gets a question about gnosticism, of which she admits to know nothing, and she has to improvise, she gets it right!
(Of course Tolkien is a Catholic of *_his_* time, the early 20th century, unconfused by Gnostic heresies.)
0:37 Could someone please point me to the poem Jackson talks about here? Is it by Sharon Olds?
Coming to this late but, has anyone thought of Melkor as a Sophia character from the Gnostic traditions?
Nevermind; they do discuss it 🤘
48:50 - Must have!
Got the same banner. Was waiting for something like this! Great stuff guys.
hearing gnosticism described as "deep-cut, b-side christianity" made me lose it lmao.
thank you and dr. fuller-shafer for this! i have admittedly never read the lord of the rings, though i read the hobbit when i was quite young and, as a result, i don't think i appreciated its pacing or themes in... third grade or whatever. i respect tolkien and his parallels to real mythology and culture, and i'd love to see what someone who studies, say, gnosticism or zoroastrianism would have to say about his work.
(also i know it was an offhanded mention re: seeing yourself as tolkienesque, but for what it's worth i have been told that my own perceived lack of creativity is the result of thinking (for years) that it wasn't a responsible use of my time... let yourself daydream a little more?)
I found Tolkien's recurring numerology to be associated both with 7 and 9. I mean, even with the rings of power Sauron gives 7 to the dwarf lords and 9 to mortal men. We also see this with 9 members of the fellowship. So, anyway, my take is that it's both.
Fun fact: Tolkien's „mythology for England“ draws heavily on Irish mythology. This is most obvious in the early drafts (published as „The Book of Lost Tales“) in which Tolkien draws up a mythical prehistory of the island of Britain which is clearly modeled on the Irish pseudohistory laid out in the „Book of Invasions“ (Lebor Gabála Érenn).
Throughout his life, Tolkien avoided mentioning his Irish sources of inspirations when he had no qualms talking about his Norse, Old English or Finnish influences. I imagine he found the fact embarrassing.
How would the king know if an adult or a child had taken a gold ring by the highway?
Tolkien created languages and a world in middle Earth but he uses our naming of months, which implies the existence of the Romans and our history as the prehistory of Middle Earth. Was that deliberate and if so, why?
Tolkein always saw his works as being translations from original sources rather than direct works. He imagined it like he was translating Bilbos red book into English and chose names and translations that would make sense to the audience and kept what references needed to remain untranslated. Like Frodos name isn't actually Frodo, its a translation from his actual name Maura. So the names of months in Tolkeins works just means that he translated the words the characters would have used to ones familiar to us reading the work. If that makes sense.
Thank you @@maluse227 that does explain it.
This was such a cool interview!
There is an interview where Tolkien says "the dwarves are rather like the jews, aren't they?" It was interesting to hear that their language even resembles Hebrew to some degree.
22:50 It's actually Quenya that sounds more like Finnish and Homeric Greek than like anything Germanic. It is also more fleshed out than Sindarin.
Sindarin is more like sounding Welsh and Spanish.
24:12 Not just maybe.
Quenya is inspired by finnish. The similarities are enormous. Sindarin, however, I cannot see how it looks like spanish, and this comes from a spanish speaker.
@@mercianthane2503 Sindarin is clearly more Welsh than Spanish, just as Quenya is more Finnish than Old Greek.
Still, I think some words in Sindarin have some affinity to Spanish over Welsh, perhaps due to antepenultime accent.
Ennorath = énoraz (North Spanish pronuncition), but in Welsh, that word would be impossible. Like the closest in Welsh would be Ynnorath, which would be = inóraz / unóraz. Welsh doesn't have words with antepenultime accent.
@@hglundahl
I speak the mexican way, so, instead of "ennorath" would be "enoras", haha
Quenya is definitely a mixture of Welsh meter and Finnish consonants
Pretty sure the Valkyrie rode side-saddle.
She got one thing wrong: Sindarin is similar to Welsh, not Finnish. Quenya, however is similar to Finnish.
👍
Dr. Crawford has a bad habit, here and in several other videos, of suddenly lowering his voice and speaking rapidly off to the side and in a manner that makes him impossible to understand. Surely this is not his intent. Surely. In the same video Dr. Fuller-Shafer, on the other hand, is always intelligible.
She unravels the way, her way of thinking at the very start. Bless. "Uncommonly happy Marriage" Tainting the past?
Sharon Olds, nice
England: Bland apart from the edgy bits! 😅