"Encourage Creativity" XENOTILT Pinball Shmup Developer Interview
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- čas přidán 31. 05. 2024
- "Encourage Creativity" XENOTILT Pinball Developer Shmup Interview. Today I am joined by WIZNWAR, the developer of the much loved shmup pinball hybrid, Demon's Tilt, to discuss his actual sequel, XENOTILT! This discussion is not just a bunch of PR however, we also get into a meaty discussions about game mechanics, DLC, game vs simulation, scoring system design, intrinsic vs. extrinsic motivation (a game design model I am highly skeptical of), context sensitivity, and how to design a compelling leader board that doesn't just hide ignored in a menu that three players ever use. We also talk about the struggles of marketing a niche hardcore game and how to use Steam as a platform to do so.
Overall, WIZNWAR makes game that I not only like and respect, but also have a lot of great insight into arcade game design and how to naturally build a compelling set of systems to keep players engaged and coming back. Xenotilt is currently in early access on Steam, so check that out, and I'm willing to bet it's going to get a wider release on other platforms in the future. So if you are a fan of pinball, shmups, arcade games, or just fun gameplay dense design, generally, be sure to check this bad boy out.
Steam link: store.steampowered.com/app/20...
Twitter link: / xenotilt
Soundtrack for game (and background music for video) is by ec2151 !
Follow the XenoTilt composer and contact for commissions here!
/ ec2151
ec2151.bandcamp.com/
Patreon
/ electricunderground
[$2 tier = Monthly Game Review Vote, Name in Credits, Exclusive Monthly Podcast]
[$5 tier = Double Monthly Game Review Vote, By Name Shout-out, Name in Credits, Exclusive Monthly Podcast]
Website: theelectricundergr.wixsite.co...
STG Revision 2020 Discord:
/ discord
00:00 A Sequel to an INDIE GAME?! Madness
08:00 New Mechanics That Naturally Build on Core Design
14:00 Game Design is greater than Simulation Design
19:00 Screen Filling Bosses are HYPE
21:30 Pixel Art is Freedom
24:00 Raiden Toothpaste Lasers
28:00 Scoring is More than Chopping Wood
31:00 Marketing XENOTILT at PAX and on Steam
35:40 Siri: How Do You Make a Sequel to a Hidden Gem?
38:30 Extrinsic Game Design Discussion
41:30 Acknowledge the Player, Don't MANIPULATE the Player
45:00 SHOVE the Leader board in the Players' Faces, Don't segregate it.
50:00 What is a Hidden Gem?
#xenotilt, #shmup, #pinball - Hry
I hope this dude keeps making new Pinball games. Demons Tilt and Xeno Tilt are super fun to hop in and play when you don't have a lot of time!
An absolute breath of fresh air in digital pinball. Shump and Flarb have shone a torch for others to follow, though I'd pay cash money for Extra Ball DLC ;) but I know the updates are gonna blow everyone's mind. Historic stuff!
This is a great reminder to play some more Demon Tilt!
For sure!
Love both of the Tilt games! Thanks for posting this interview.
Thanks for tuning in my dude!
Definitely gonna check out Demon's Tilt now
Oh for sure!!! It s my fav pinball game ha
Hell yeah thanks for this interview. Xenotilt even in early access is my personal game of the year! Really like the changes in XT and its an improvement in every way
Yes it does seem like a step up overall which is really cool!
New Super Mario Bros 2 on 3ds had a goal of collect 1000000 coins, and you got nothing for it. But it fundamentally changed everything about that game and a Mario game in general. It was actually fun but such brazen manipulation too, your brain could not play the game normally with that goal in mind. I liked that talking point here, this game looks amazing too.
That sounds like a really fun challenge! I agree that I like the idea of having these sort of overall achievements that link together the different game sessions. :-)
This might very well be the Devil's crush game we're all looking for. Please come to switch or Xbox asap :) Thanks for the great interview!
Thank you beat! Yes I'm willing to be it comes to consoles as well :-)
Marks does the best interviews. love your Channel i rewatch all your videos all day while im working.
Game looks great, big fan of Demon's Tilt on the Switch. Day 1 once it comes to console!
I feel like being successful as an indie dev is a lot like being successful on CZcams. It's a mix of either luck, trend chasing and brand recognition (either being a big name outside of youtube, being friends with a big channel, starting a second channel after getting big or making stuff based on properties millions of people are familiar with).
While indie games are still mostly in a better place than AAA games are, there's still a dark side to it. Even though the risks of making an unpopular game are less severe than in the AAA scene, it's still very risky, especially if you have other team members and have been working on a game for a long time. Because of that, a lot of devs try to copy elements from other front page games and then those games end up on the front page and get copied.
There's also the fear of Steam potentially pulling something like a Unity, which would have catastrophic effects on the industry. It would likely be even worst than Unity because Steam doesn't really have comparable competition and it directly affects the consumer. Either devs would have to quit making games altogether or it'd be like CZcams where devs just throw up their hands and accept unethical business practices that also negatively affect the consumer.
Valve's a private company so you dont have to worry about Steam going away or whatever
@@majormelthesackboy I think there's still a chance of them making a stupid decision that effects the industry. Though admittedly compared to most other companies, Valve has been extremely good with that avoiding sort of thing. I just don't know what will happen if that day comes, it's scary to think an an entire industry could collapse all because one company thought they could push around their consumer base and get away with it.
What a great observation! It is actually incredibly similar ha. Boghog and I talk about this all the time but indie devs and youtubers exist in basically the same ecosystem ha. It's just that indie devs tend to be treated with more prestige than us dirty youtubers lol. But youtubers get more attention overall, so it's sort of a trade off.
@@TheElectricUndergroundfor what it’s worth, I respect you Mark, and I respect other CZcamsrs as well. I appreciate the discussions and content generally. Even if I have a different viewpoint sometimes, it’s all good - we’re ultimately talking about games here! Also enjoyed your recent video on the Steam Shmup Fest. Found a couple of interesting games through that, like Eigengrau. Hope you have a great evening and weekend.
we await the spotify version
Ha I usually delay the audio versions of podcasts for a good while (since podcasts views don't build viewership as well as CZcams) so it ll be a while ha
Always appreciate the dev interviews! It's always insightful to see the behind the scenes thought process in design. Been on the fence for Demon's Tilt for a year since I haven't played pinball in like 20+ years, but I'll give it a shot this week. A shame that there doesn't sound like there's a parry system though :)
There's so many indie games I would have loved to see a sequel for!
I know right! I'm still waiting for the Fight N' Rage Sequel ...
@@TheElectricUnderground Oof. That would be nice but from that interview you did doesn't seem likely 😭
This is really tangential to the video but is there another podcast where you talk about the concept of context sensitivity? I really like that idea so I'm interested in hearing differing opinions.
I definitely should, context sensitivity - a rebuttal ha
@@TheElectricUnderground I would enjoy the shit out of that video!
I'd love that because I found Matthew Matosis' video to be very persuasive. Still not clear on why he's wrong other than "it's a meme"
@@n2oshotandironman The claim that context sensitivity comes with a set of issues is obviously true. It's the categorical nature of the vid that makes it halfassed along with the overall thesis. It ends up being a pretty surface-level analysis because the focus is on essentially a *design tool* rather than the *decision making* made by the designers. This focus on context sensitivity also creates ambiguity in his argument that he struggles to account for (why is player-side context sensitivity perceived as such, while enemy-side isn't?)
When you get down to it, the loss of manual control due to context sensitivity (& assists, the argument applies to both) isn't an issue by itself. Certain things aren't important enough to warrant a high degree of manual input such as interact buttons in action games. And certain dynamics can *only* exist as a result of context sensitivity - RE4's kicks being a good example. Because kicks are context sensitive instead of manual, this allows the game to tie in all of its major mechanics together. You aren't moving in a good place and doing a kick, instead you are funneling enemies (with their own AI & attacks) into specific spots, aiming and shooting at specific parts of their bodies & spacing yourself properly. 2D beat em up throws have a similar dynamic, grazing-based abilities in shmups also do. The real problem here is *focus* .
Fundamentally, games are sets of challenges ordered by importance - there are central skills games will inevitably tests, and there are secondary/tertiary/whatever the fuck skills that are unimportant to the core but are still part of the games. Platformers will test your general ability to judge distance, time your jumps, predict moving object trajectories because those are primary skills, but they will not test your ability to time your jump at the exact frame of landing - hence input buffers. Context sensitivity is at its best when it's either applied to those unimportant skills, or is used to enhance primary skills by using them as context. This accounts for some things "not feeling like context sensitivity", or the random distinction between player-side context sensitivity and enemy side context sensitivity - they're simply a type of context sensitivity that jives well with the core challenges of the game.
Analyzing it from the POV of focus also lets you more easily understand why context sensitivity is (mis)used. A lot of the negative examples he brings up aren't some simple mistakes by game designers - they are from games that are mish mashes of different genres/experiences that either try to do a little bit of everything, or have no strong mechanical focus to begin with. That's why you see so much context sensitivity in movie games, and why licensed games historically had a lot of this (along with minigames). They don't have a strong identity, and as a result don't want to cause friction for players who are playing the games to experience the story or exploration but struggle with combat.
Another big problem is that he just doesn't do a good enough job in demonstrating (or even defining) his thesis that a lack of context sensitivity makes games stand the test of time. FPS are an exception here but even there you can see a slow drift towards more context sensitivity as games without reloads, limb damage & finishers are relegated to the indie space. It doesn't hold across other genres either - shmups are extremely context insensitive, but they are as obscure as you can get. Same deal with light gun shooters and a lot of other arcade games. I think the vid would be better if he cut that whole claim out.
Sorry if the comment's hard to follow but hopefully you get the point lol
@@boghogSTG Okay you have to make a video "My Response to Matthew Matosis context sensitivity" you already have the scrip, now you need a good editor.
Demon's Tilt is really fun, always come back to it. Xenotilt looks awesome. Pinball is rad
Yes I love how gamey this version of pinball is too. i don't think I could sit through a normal pinball game that much, but adding in the shmup elements takes it to the next level ha.
@@TheElectricUnderground I have to admit SIM tables are a guilty pleasure of mine as well. Learning the ins and outs of a table and highscore chasing can be quite satisfying.
gane looks beautiful good work!
I was introduced to the first game on GamePass. Bought a copy once it left GamePass and still fire it up for a quick session every now and then. Hope the sequel comes to XBox at some stage 🤞
I think it will, but that's just a guess :-)
I absolutely RINSED dragons Fury on the Megadrive in my youth so Demon's Tilt was a pleasure to see (shame they couldn't match the music though). Glad to see Xeno getting some attention.
I'm looking forward to getting it running on my Atgames PInball machine!!!!
The term “chopping wood” reminds me of our shmup term for “milk”
Now I want DeityTilt. Give me an ancient Egypt pinball machine decked out in gold and turquoise!
Ha yes complete the trilogy!
Look forward to plugging PC into the new 4k atgames at putting hours into this game
Reminds me of Grand Cross Pinball from Excellent Systems
Game looks awesome but I wish there was a physical release for both of them on either xbox one or ps4 that would make a sick bundle pack for like 30-40 bucks.
Just knowing the personality of the dev, I'm willing to bet he'd do a physical release at some point.
given that you have steam input you could just reassign the stick and play in tate mode, i think i saw a video of someone playing crimson clover that way
sicc game
For sure!
flip grip is going to be difficult on steam deck because of the airflow, i guess
I really love this game! It just kinda sucks that that top scores are already maxed. All the top scores on the leaderboards are the exact same.
It kinda kills any motivation I had on playing the game and improving my score:(
Oh wow counterstops already discovered! Well the good news is that the game is in early access, so I'm sure the dev will patch this up before the final release.
Steam has a 32 bit int limit for leaderboards, so you just go to the Billionaires Board to see the Billionaire's scores. there's also additional information here like time played.
Any chance it will hit the switch?
I would think there is a high chance! That's not confirmed though I don't think?
I'm getting a Toaplan vibe from the graphics.
My fave games are shmups, Tetris grand master 2 and pinballs. I bought demon pinball, played for a few hours and believe m😮e tryed to like it, but could not get into. Very small ball and too fast.flippers Also small. Pinball is a game of Precision. It was hard to get the Angeles right with só small flippers. Also the board was small, trying to to show portions of upper/lower floors at the same time was not a idea that i AM big fan, considering i play Tate mode on pinballs.Also some visual effects are excessive and deteriorarem the ball visibility. Still i give some crédit for trying something new. It is pinball on steroids. Still my fave pinball videogame was pinball arcade that was providing a great serviçe until zen studio bought the rights for them, published a good version of some arcade tables and suddenly stopped.
I'm personally not a huge pinball guy myself, so for me the added gamey elements of demon's tilt and xenotilt are big draws ha. I don't think I could really sit through a pure pinball game, so it's interesting how the design of the game is in-between both audiences. I do agree the ball could be bigger though, it can be tricky to keep track of at times but I'm assuming it's that size because he wanted the table to be giant ha. I do love all the visual effects though, you'll never see me complaining about too many explosions ha.
Alright... yesterday and the day before, I played Demon's tilt.
I'm really bad at video games, but hey : you don't have to be good at your hobbies 🦥. I was kinda looking up the internet if Demon's Tilt offered other "tables" than the first one only to discover that there is only 1 table. At first I was wtf.. BUT God I like that decision/contraint because it allows me to focus on what's important with this game (the gameplay) and no superfluous what-ev. Soooo I manage to complete the Hermit ritual after a lots of attemps 😅 and Woooow ! Haha the game suddently change different with a lots of wooo hooo and wahhh haa tabarnak ( in my native language) Hhahaha 😂 anyways... lots of fun for the old man in me. Thanks for the video Mark and thanks for the game from Adam 🫡🙆 pure gaming experience ! The music by ec2151 is suiting 👌. Looking foward a physical release of Xenotilt on NSW
Not my kind of game, but always interested in dev talks.
It warms my heart when people tune into my vids, even for games they're not interested in, so Thank you ha! I do try to keep the conversations larger than just being PR for the game.
@@TheElectricUnderground Makes sense, keep it up.
What’s the game at 9:44?
Look in the upper right corner its spikeout final. Never heard of it
I love this game but there is nothing shmup about it
Tried this game and xemomorph tilt. Unfortunately thought they were kinda crap. The aesthetic and vibe is spot on, but the gameplay and tables are extremely shallow and boring
-You're not a fan of this channel if you don't like screen-filling bosses 😂🫡