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Problem With Peco Points At The Frogs
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- čas přidán 2. 01. 2017
- As conversion progresses of Layout from DC to DCC a few problems have been occurring.
Here i show you an issue I have found with the frogs on Peco points installed around the layout.
Thanks for this video! I've been having shorting problems with my Peco Insulfrogs and suspected it was due to this. You've confirmed my suspicion. Now, I just need to decide how to fix it.
Glad I could help!
Hi Glad you made this video since i had the same problem but with only one locomotive , athearn genesis challenger which was shorting out the entire layout just because of what you showed, no other loco did this. I used nail polish and painted the frogs just a little farther from the plastic so the wheels did not toutch the other rail , worked perfect, cheers and thanks for the info
Thank you for your comment.
I used all Insulfrog points on mine initially so when I decided to go DCC, rather than buy all new Electrofrog points I simply got a couple of packs of Hornbys DCC point clips. Whilst fiddly to place, these have worked perfectly since being put in place.
Thank you for your comment.
Hi, Yes the nail varnish on the two rails near the frog is so easy it is well worth a try. If it wears through just replace it. The hardest part is going into the chemist's shop to ask for it with a straight face. Stuart
just pinch the better halves :) lol
Stuart de Boer
Nope, the hardest part is getting them to order British Rail colours of nail varnish ha ha. Sorry, I'm in one of my silly moods...again :-)
You need to check and alter the wheel back to back measurements. The reason it does this is because some of your wheels have a too narrow back to back setting. You'd be surprised how often they are badly set up at the factory
The reality is not so much the Peco frogs but the lack of taper on the tread of the wheels. The better quality wheels won't short where you indicate, that is, it's an intermittent problem and a quality one!
There are a few things that can be done to help eleviate the problem.
Upgrade your wheelsets, a bit expensive?
Paint a small section of the frog rails behind the plastic with clear nail varnish, works very well but in time you will have to repeat the exercise. This is the cheapest option too!
Ditch the turnouts and use Peco live frog, the best alternative by far
Build custom made turnouts. This might sound complicated but is very easy to do.
I have converted the insulfrog turnouts to be dcc friendly but it a bit of a chore.
Good luck with your fix.
Thank you for your comment.
easy fix!! It's called add a few drops of clear finger nail enamel to the points of where the metal wheels of your rail car or loco touch the opposing track.. Mind you, this doesn't provide a 'Fix - all' Method but it helps! Add a couple of drops - one after the other dries and you should get some longer lasting coats of nail polish that will resist wear a bit longer but not as I said - a fix all or permanent. I ended up having to replace the turnout all together. This I find is what happens when we buy items off the internet and we can't pick and choose...
Thank you for your comment.
I have a problem with one loco over one particular point, will investigate.
The wheel spacing must be adjusted, but to what value? I also have this problem with brand new Pecos but on only one machine. Other heavier machines work very well.
I have had the same problem and as a temporary fix I painted the rail with clear nail varnish lacquer or grey emulsion paint as both can be easily removed if needed . The worst loco of my stock is the 9F due to the long wheel arrangement with plenty of play .
.........Peter
Thank you for your comment.
Maybe a little bit of paint on the closest most rail can solve the issue?
I'm looking at getting started again and all I'm finding is problems.
I came to the conclusion Peco seems to be best track. But was planning on older Hornby and Lima . The Lima from late 80's, already have.
Converted all of my set-track points to electro frogs and painted the plastic tips with silver conducting paint - now all my points work in the same way. Bit of wire chopping and soldering involved but worth the effort.
Thank you for your comment.
Yup, I have the exact same problem with some Peco slips. I kick myself for not waiting to fitting electrofrog versions (like I did for the rest of my points)...
For me it happens with Hornby MkIIs (new tooling) and the pony truck of my Hornby L1 - and I imagine any steam loco with a single axel pony truck which moves very freely would also suffer quite badly on these points. As you said you're experiencing problems with a Hornby loco as well there must be something about the dimensions of Hornby wheels that creates this problem! I find this highly frustrating because you'd think Hornby would test their locos on a variety of track wouldn't you... It's interesting that you're also suffering the same problem with a Bachmann 37 as I don't have problems with mine. You could try changing the wheelsets but I've had very little success of this actually working.
The only way I've found to mitigate the problem in a reasonably non destructive manner is to *paint* either the track or the offending wheelset - This effectively insulates the electrical connection. I use some generic black paint designed for interior metals and all you need to do is dab a couple of drops onto the rails to expand the dead zone of the frog - basically to make it look like the point you don't have any problems with. Let it dry for a few hours and I think you'll be pleasantly surprised with the results. Now admittedly this method is not without it's drawbacks, and I'm sure people will chastise me for even thinking about painting the track but here's what you should be aware of. Firstly the paint won't last forever - the constant running of trains will wear it down over time so you'll have to re apply every so often. Secondly, that wearing paint is going to get spread about. Not so much that it's going to cause major problems but it'll just mean you'll have to pay more attention to regular track and wheel cleaning to get rid of any excess grime. Thirdly, whilst we're on the subject of cleaning - if you use a track cleaning car/wagon to clean your track this will most likely remove any paint you DO want on the frogs, so again you'd have to re apply. (But it shows that the process of painting the rails is not very destructive and if it all goes wrong you can just clean it up and try something else). Lastly, be aware that if you increase the dead zone you're going to make it harder for short wheelbase locos (like shunters) to make a pass without stalling. The only true solution to avoid this is to install electrofrog points, but we know that's not an option.
For *particularly* stubborn locos (like my Hornby L1 or any steam loco with freely moving pony trucks) I've had to be more drastic and actually paint the offending wheelset itself. This should only be a last resort and I'd not recommend doing it to a loco like the 37 where all wheels are needed as pick ups.
Hope this helps or at least provides some food for thought! :) Good luck.
Calling All Stations Many thanks for this excellent advice, it would seem it's a common issue. Hopefully a simple resolve will be ample to fix it even it is only temporary. It would be a lot more trouble to replace.
Hi there! Can you paint a tiny bit of clear varnish or black paint over that area to increase the insulated area and prevent the wheels from being able to touch both the rails at this part of the points? If you cover the metal to match the Hornby points then hopefully it'll eliminate the issues?! 🤔😁
Regards, Richard. 😁
Hi Richard, yes that is a good short term fix. Thanks for the comment.
Bit of black paint sorted mine out :)
Thank you for your comment.
I notice that you have metal fish plates on the V of the frog. You should always use INSULATED fishplates and NOT metal at that point. As the points are already laid, would suggest you cut through the metal fishplates you have installed. Also, it is worth checking the back to back of the wheels as Hornby in particular are usually closer than the recommended distance and they could make the wheels 'jump' as they progress through the frog.
If you check the Peco instructions that come with the points, I seem to remember they show a diagram with insulated fishplates.
Hope this is of help.
Alan Brian Many thanks for the advice, I have done just as you said and have an update video due to be published with the outcome.
Hi. I would suggest 2 options.1 cut the tracks at the end of the frogs to insulate them
2 go a step further and if your point motors allow ad a wire to turn them into electrofrog. I've done it and it was very successful..
Did you reported the fault to the Peco? Peco still mass produce same turnouts with same defaults.
I will do just that now, do not know why i haven't done so already.
Did you fix the problem ? Its a big issue you have to isolate the 2 tracks with isolated fish plates then then fit a polarity switch or on some point motors there is a switch on that basically its the same process as electro frog .dave class37 has a good tutorial on modifying the points for the same problem.hope this helps .
Thank you for your comment.
Can I ask what type of piko track you are using please/
The points are peco insulfrog points.
Another great video....Mathew
Thank you for your comment.
Did you ever get a resolution to this?
Yes look under follow up video saying SOLVED
You've wired them up wrong I'm afraid. You have to use insulating fish plates on both rails at the frog end of the point. You can leave it there and rely on the blades making contact with the rails to pass current, but this can be unreliable as they get dirty and are difficult to clean. You can add dropper wires to each rail and then feed them to a polarity switch that changes with your point motor - some point motors have this built in. The two rails at the frog end will then share the same polarity, eliminating the short.
I have since fitted insulting fish plates which cured the issue. Yes point blades are then a further issue but i am fitting point motors soon as you state above and should then give smooth faultless running.
Just wire an insul frog point the same way as an electro frog point. No grinding or nail varnish for heavens sake.
So, should it be PECO or Piko? I think I've experienced the same issue with Piko
Leon Zhou PECO
Any insulated switch frog with close clearances may do this, unfortunately.
From your description it seems the locos "roll" when crossing the points.
Thank you for your comment.
Peco finescale as they are, is too narrow. Back to back on wheels cause the problem.
Peco code 100
Let us know how you get on with the problem.
Thank you for your comment.
just add a bit of paint over the rails,,
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Check your guard rail ...
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Just paint a little fingernail polish on the troublesome area.
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Those ancient turnouts are not DCC friendly.
Thank you for your comment.
A little nit picking: The 'points' are the rails which move from side to side on a switch. You are here dealing with the 'frog'..not points..So, Vid title is incorrect..Other than this, I've incurred the same either shorting out or dead spot stall-outs on Shinohara switches.. More so, dead spot stall outs while trying to go slow. Worst is on a Shino 3-way .. If ALL DCC locos were equipped with 'keep alive' the plastic gaps could be manufactured a tad longer preventing all short outs and all stall outs...Nice visual I came up with is painting the brown plastic insulators on Atlas and Shino switches with 'chrome' color paint. I was worried though that a Brightboy rail cleaner would scratch the paint away. But it doesn't. The silver really does a great job of making the switch more realistic looking..
You are quite right about title, i will add to it
50 ways to fix this
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mine did the same
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It's not Peco's fault, you are relying on the factory setting the wheels correctly, buy the right back to back gauge and check the wheels!!
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Use. Clear babe posele
Thank you