Insulfrog, Electrofrog, Unifrog--What's The Difference And Why Does It Matter? (263)
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- čas přidán 29. 06. 2024
- For some time Peco has made the Insulfrog and Electrofrog turnouts, and a few years ago they added the Unifrog to the mix. All these froggy turnouts has led to a lot of confusion on the part of model railroaders who wonder what's the difference and why does it matter? So in this video I'll attempt to answer this ancient question and give you some tips on why it matters.
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Thanks for a very detailed explanation. I do use Insulfrog turnouts for the isolation of sidings. If all sidings are powered, then all locos will be sitting there using power. When I isolate a siding, that loco is dead and I don't have to listen to so many steam engines at once. As for point feed. I've had no problems - except for one time. I simply cleaned the point & contact rail with Mineral Spirits, dabbed a bit of graphite and have had no trouble since. i.e. Clean track and graphite is all that is needed for a simple shelf layout like mine. No turnouts powered, etc.
I've just started thinking about building a small shelf HO layout in a spare bedroom / office, and doing so with DCC controlled motive power, and your videos are invaluable.
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Just bought one of your books on wiring. I can't wait to start flipping pages tomorrow! FYI, if any of you visit San Diego, visit the oldest model train store in the nation at 80 this year! Frank the Trainman!
Nice clear explanation with good use of the pointer. More people should make use of a simple tool like this.
Great information and very clear and easy to understand, thank you. I am 70, built my first railroad table and getting ready for the track. This is exactly the information I needed. Keep up the good work. You’re a very good instructor! I have most of your books, but listening to you makes it clear.
I used to run Atlas turnouts with Hex Frog Juicers. When my local hobby shop was going out of business, their sale on #5 Peco insulfrog turnouts was too good to pass up. I took a chance and bought a bunch. I wired jumpers between the stock rails and closure rails to not rely solely on the points. Running 4 axle diesels as the smallest powered units, I've never had stalling issues, because the frogs are so short. That being said, having powered frogs will always be my first choice, and the Peco Unifrogs or new Walthers will be my future purchases (if I ever build another layout).
Thanks for a nice video.
PECO has now made a switch (Unifrog) in the same way that TILLIG has done for at least 10 years, clearly interesting.
Always look forward to your videos, great content to watch while doing research for my own model railway projects.
In relation to turnout, I originally started to plan using Peco Code 75 (I model british 00 or 4mm) Long radius Electrofrog points on mainline and branchlines with medium radius in yards. But when I heard Unifrog were being released I almost waited.
Nethertheless, since this I have opted to hand lay all my own rails :D But It doesn't mean I don't enjoy learning about them.
Keep it up Larry!
James - LWR
Thank you so much for this video. As always so informative and clearly described. Honestly I use the electro frogs and appreciate the short when another locomotive creeps onto the turnout. This reminds me the turnout is thrown the wrong way. It avoids derailment. I am in the process of an expansion of my layout and am considering the new Walthers turnouts after watching your video on those. Thanks again.
Larry very good information. I just added some unifrog turnouts to my layout work well. Have a Happy 4th
Thank you for sharing. Enjoyed.
Confused !! Looking forward to watching your video 🇬🇧🇺🇸🇬🇧
Larry,
Thank you for the excellent discussion. Your explanation you made it so simple and easy. I have been reading your book on DCC. Unfortunately for me my comprehension is low so seeing it first hand is best for me.
Great explanation Larry thank you. Happy 4th to you as well.
Glad I found this one! Answered all my questions. Wasn’t aware of the new one. I always thought insulfrogs were the DCC friendly version. Will look for the newer ones. Thanks for another great video.
Glad I could help!
It seems to me that insulfrog would be the best option. What i got from this was that if i have feeders on each leg of an insulfrog turnout, that i can override power routing, and always have power, and always in phase unless of course its a wye, or reverse loop. More feeders sounds alot easier to me, than modifying and modifying, cut gaps here and here, and there, and jumping this, that, possibly here, solder this one too. And dont forget that one.. maybe im wrong but that's what i took away from this video. I haven't purchased any track yet because im completely overwhelmed with the turnout confusion. Im building my first serious layout and don't want to make unnecessary purchases so im constantly watching videos on turnouts. This was the clearest video I've watched yet and if im understanding everything correctly, i took away from this what i stated above. Any further help from anyone is appreciated
Same here, I'm currently starting a layout, I need the track to be bullet proof, for smooth operation..with that being said I need to be realistic with my needs and wants..at some point I need to say I'm ok with this..I'm running DC, and although DCC is great I have far far to much equipment to convert over..(been collecting) for many years. I'm making this decision to go with the insul frog.. knowing small locos may have a issue..iv already done testing with the smaller locomotives..aside from maybe a 0-4-0 the rest seem to run very nice over the insulfrog..as nice as the powered seems more reliable, its just not something I'd see a benefit in with my situation..
same too, i have a lot od rails and insulfrog turouts inherited and i want to start in ddc, and what i take is, if don't have small steamers(and i don't), insulfrog do their work good enough and there is no need for more complicated and expensive rails
Great videoLarry👍👍👍Happy 4th of July, it’s our holiday in Canada today
Great explanation, thank you.
Very helpful to this DCC newbie!
Hey Larry, I have been using insulfrog turnouts for 30 years and am part of a large club that uses them. I started out in DC. More and more I noticed shorting on the unifrogs using our DCC system. This was really apparent with a string of Athearn passenger cars. Because we run DCC the switch is feed from both the point end and the normal and thrown ends. The result is power right at the frog and certain wheels bridging causing the short. I recently bought a brand new three switch and normal Switch the instructions said to use insulating rail joiners on the frogs. I found a set of old blue box Peco instructions and there is no mention of insulators instead they say the wheels should be made to meet some standard. The required insulators defeat the route selecting purpose of the switch. My question is WHY doesn’t anyone talk about this and rip PECO for not resigning their switch. I believe this has been an issue since day one but in DC the shorting wasn’t significant enough for anyone to notice but in DCC your circuit protection clicking or sound locomotive’s sound shutting off its obvious. Steve McCoy
I seem to remember another viewer relating that on the early ones the space between rails next to the frog was too close and the loco wheel tread could hit both rails at the same time creating a short. I think he also said they had been modified in later runs. This also used to be ab issue with Atlas N scale turnouts. We used to either take a Dremel to them or less drastically just paint the rails head with Hard as Nails nail polish. It would last a few months then require another application.
I model HOn3 those Peco turnouts are Unifrog at the frog end and still have point rails on moving pivots. I’m trying these on my Durango module. They tested out just fine while leaving the frogs dead. The only equipment that might pose a problem are galloping geese and a rather short rail bus. All the small steam locomotives run right through.
There’s some concern about DCC in older turnouts. We run DCC using unaltered Shinohara turnouts, older hand made turnouts and others not generally considered DCC friendly with very few problems. Check your wheel gauge and dragging coupler hoses.
This video gives excellent information in a similarly excellent presentation. That doesn’t mean older products are junk, it just means the new ones have gone a long way to getting the bugs out.
My most repeated advice to those operating on our club’s modules is don’t run into the back of a turnout switched against you. That’s our number one short circuit.
Thanks for another great video!
Steve
The new turnouts are built to help prevent shorts. They still work with DCC but if your goal is to prevent shorts making them DCC friendly will help.
@@TheDCCGuy thanks Larry
Thank you!
Thanks for the important info. I don't understand why they do not make the frog rails independent of each other. Possibly by separating that V shape with a small gap right where it comes to a point.
Seems that would make these electro frogs work perfectly.
It can be done which is why I prefer Micro Engineering turnouts, the frog rails are dead and individually isolated. This mens they are the same polarity as the running rails you attach them to.
Interesting, regarding the electrofrog - you state (around 11:22) that you put additional cuts in the rails very close to the frog. Yes you have removed all areas where a short could occur if you run into the turnout on the route that is not set, but have you not just turned that into a dead frog, even longer than the insulfrog dead area, or do you power the frog through a juicer or similar. If you do power the frog then it is still a area of a possible short if entering the turnout from wrong route?
Without watching again, my impression was that the place where the dead short occurs just moves an inch or two nearer the frog, which seems to achieve nothing.
Great video would like to see a comparison of the new peco insulfrog compared with Atlas, Micro Engineering, Walthers etc....
See video #260.
I'm building a on30 layout using peco track and switches, not knowing that the switches I purchased were the peco elecofrog ones, needless to say, my track always shorted out when a switch was opened to a siding. Lesson learned, I removed all of them and purchased the insulofrog switches today. I tested each switch and they worked perfectly!
Insulfrog Atlas code 80 #4 manual and remote switch.
I usted in My layout.
Bachmann switch with insulfrog.
Electrofrog switch Atlas #8 .
Very informative video on Peco turnouts ! However, I'm running all Shinohara/ Walthers code 83 turnouts and they have 3,4, and 5-digit suffixes for all their #4,#5,#6, #8 and #10 turnouts being DC and DC/DCC friendly, including their very useful curved turnouts. Can someone translate Peco to Shinohara in this respect ? - Insulated rail joiners and soldered jumpers are not an issue for me but time saving advice would certainly help me before I start fastening my small branchline (3 industry) yard down. Thanks, everyone.
Which switch should I use for a yard? #6 unifrog? It's also a DCC system.
It depends on what rolling stock you will be running into the yard. For long cars including passenger coaches you will likely want #6 but I use #5 in yards where 40-50’ cars are the norm.
Hello Larry
Thank you very much for your videos, I have enjoyed them and learned a lot from them.
Very well explained.
I want to ask you a question please.
I have a digital mockup with Z21, Roco multimouse on H0.
But I have problems with the Peco detours. They are code 75 - H0 - Electrofrog.
I use slow MP1 MTB motors, but they give me shorts even though the connections are well made, as you show in your videos.
I would appreciate your advice please.
Excuse my English but it is done with the translator.
Regards, and thank you very much.
I suspect you have installed them in the as built configuration and they are acting as power routing turnouts instead of as all live turnouts. If so then the frog rails need to be insulated at their ends to prevent shorts.
Thank you very much for the quick response Larry.
Indeed this is how I have done it. The two central rails have insulating plastic plates. That's why I don't understand short circuits.
You may need to connect the MP1 MTB motor positions that go to the track rails differently.
I will continue doing tests.
Thanks again.
Greetings.
Yes, check your wire connections, that is a common point where shorts get wired into turnouts.
Thank you very much for your instructions.
I will do the appropriate tests with the connections that must be the problem.
Greetings
I'm just getting back into the hobby with code 100 flex and Atlas/Tyco switches. I've been told they won't cut it with DCC. Would you suggest "switching" to code 83 Peco unifrog's and code 83 flex? Need to make this change before I lay the first rail.
The only reason to use code 100 is if you have a lot of it and old cars and locos that have the oversized flanges. With anything smaller than code 100 the flanges may bump along on the cast-in spikes. I have a bunch of old Atlas code 100 track I plan to use on my second helix simply because I have it and it will be hidden and no one will see it. However if you are not concerned with the esthetics of track and the fact that code 100 is oversized except for some of the heaviest track in use then go for it. Atlas turnouts will work and the more modern stuff looks a lot better than it used to.
Larry, This applies to a different subject. I am setting up a programming track with a Soundtraxx PTB-100 and would like to obtain an optimal transformer to be dedicated to it. They recommend 15 volt DC and 500 ma. Can you remind me where you obtain your transformers and what you would recommend? Thank you, p wells.
I checked my usual sources and it looks like your best bet is Amazon.
How do you mix electrofrog and insulfrog without having a problem? Say you have a yard and you have a mix of these? If you had plastic rail joiners on the frog rails would you be okay from shorts?
You could do it but I don’t recommend the use of Insulfrogs since short wheelbase locos tend to stall on the dead frog. This would be especially true of yards where slow speed operations are necessary so you can’t “coast” over a dead frog. Plastic rail joiners are a necessity on the older ones but the new Unifrogs don’t require them.
Hello Larry- I’m starting out again in hobby after 30 years. I’m new to DCC. I have atlas custom code 83 switches. Should they be reconfigured in the same manner you did for the peco switches? Thanks in advance and really do enjoy your channel.
You’ll be fine with them as built.
@@TheDCCGuy
thank you.
Larry, I and my son are new to larger scale model railroading. I’m currently reading your “Wiring Your MR” book on turnouts. We’ve got all new Atlas dcc friendly turnouts. Am I correct in interpreting your info that there should be no need to do extra to these turnouts to make the more safe from short circuits as opposed to what you recommend for power routing ones? I just want to make sure before installation and operation. Thanks!!
They are fine as sold. Note that unless they recently changed it the frogs are cast aluminum or pot metal and do not accept solder, thus the small opening for a screw on the frog. It is there to allow users to attach the feeder wire using a screw that Atlas sells. Some folks put the screw in from the bottom and solder to its head in order to hide the connection.
@@TheDCCGuy thanks for the reply, but I see some differences on the turnouts. One looks lie the frog is all plastic as the others isolated with plastic frogs and metal jumper underneath from frog to closure rail. The one with all plastic frog looks like it has a jumper between the stock and closure rail and the throw bar is insulated. The one with a jumper between the frog and closure rail doesn’t appear to have a jumper between the stock and closure rail. I’m a bit confused with the mix of dcc friendly features (some there, some not) and unsure what do. Sorry for the long reply.
Looked again at the one that looks like it doesn’t have jumper between the stock and closure rails. There are plastic humps under the track at those spots where you can’t see the metal connection that may be molded into the plastic and not visible.
3:44 he knows my pain.😼
What is recommended for DC block operation?
Although I covered that in my wiring book since this is primarily a DCC channel I don’t get into it here.
Doesn't matter to people like me that have no power running through the track. We are all battery powered. No shorts, no worry about wiring problems, no worry about reversing loops, no worry about wiring of the "Y's", and frog wiring is just not a problem at all...
So, am I understanding correctly that Insulfrog is the same thing (out of the box) that you've created by modifying the Electrofrog (except for the smoother switching rail geometry)?
No, the Insulfrog turnout has a plastic frog which cannot be powered. My Electrofrog modifications create a turnout essentially the same as a Unifrog.
@@TheDCCGuy ugh.... I meant Unifrog, not Insulfrog. Oops!
Sir I want to connect frog juice and switch motor in electrofrog how will I connect these wires because there is only one wire undneath in the frog please reply sir 🥺🥺🥺🥺🥺🥺
Please reply sir
Does Peco make anything other than a #6 unifrog? I've been searching but I can't find a #5 unifrog.
It is my understanding that they are in the process of replacing all versions of the Insulfrog and Electrofrog with the Unifrog. However it will not be an instantaneous replacement so during the transition I expect periods where you will be able to get one or the other of a specific configuration and also times when none will be available.
@@TheDCCGuy ok. So I need Peco #5 Turnouts. Which version would you recommend for my DCC layout. I am just learning to solder so which turnout would be best for me?
I don’t think Peco have made #5 Unifrogs yet and if not then you will likely have to go with what ever you can find. If you are in the USA then the Walthers #5 is a good choice. In the Uk I would go Unifrog, Electrofrog, Insulfrog in that order based on what is available. I also would not go out and buy all you can find as the next day a shipment of exactly what you want will appear at the local dealer. I bought a bunch of MicroEngineering turnouts last year and of course now I would buy the Walthers turnouts had I not bought the others.
Sir we cannot use frog juice to power in unifrog please reply
Please reply
Any suppliers of small gauge solid bare wire for making jumpers? Tried an eBay search. Nothing came up.
I get 99% of my wire from allelectronics.com. In a pinch you can use little pieces of the brass wire available at hobby shops.
@@TheDCCGuy ok Thanks!
I did see one youtuber who doesn't jump the gaps, instead wiring droppers on all the rails, and splicing the feed for the stock rail and associated closing rail under the board. I kind of like this approach as you don't have the added problem of trying to hide the jumpers.
Sir how to power the frog in unifrog please reply sir 🥺🥺🥺
The unifrog has a wire underneath the frog that is designed for providing power to it. You can use either a motorized switch machine, such as a Tortoise or DCC Concepts iP Digital, to throw the points and also provide the correct polarity of power to the frog or use a manual method with a built in switch to change polarity. I have videos showing how to power frogs as well as one on manual methods.
How can I make a insul frog into a dcc friendly turnout?
It comes that way.
Oh, I thought you said it had to be adjusted ,
I want power constant on both tracks when the switch is thrown.
Not the insulfrog, the frog is basically plastic and in most very short so few stumbles. It comes DCC Friendly.
HELP, I bought 30 Peco insulfrog switches awhile ago in advance of building my layout, being told that was the way to go for dcc now after watching this video i see it was the wrong way to go. What do I do? I am on a fixed income and can't afford to buy different switches.
The Insulfrog is DC Friendly so that is likely why they told you they would be good for DCC whereas the Electrofrog needs modifications. The main issue I have with Insulfrogs is the inability to power the frog. If you are an N scale modeler the dead frog will likely create problems with stalling as locos go through it and as I said there is nothing you can do to fix that. With HO scale it will depend on your locos. Long wheelbase diesel locos should be OK. Short wheelbase diesel switchers may be problematic. Steam locos can be an issue since the long stiff wheelbase of their drivers can lift them clear of the powered rails as they navigate the frog and cause them to stall. Set up a test track on your workbench and see how your various locos do on the Insulfrogs, you may be OK.
I've been buying the insulfrog turnouts for my dcc layout for years and have had no problems with my trains shorting out. How
Rodney-Did you read the reply? As I said Insulfrogs are DCC Friendly its the Electrofrogs that can pop a short if not modified.
Are unifrogs DC friendly? I’m DC guy.
Short answer is yes. You can leave the frog unwired, and thus would work similarly to an insulfrog, but with the benefit of all the other tracks being powered with correct polarity. But if you really desire to power the frog, you can use a switch machine to power the frog as the switch changes.
Informative yes, but please don't repeat three times, all we have to do is repeat the video or parts of it thank you.
In reality viewers don’t pay attention, skip around and miss things, and don’t bother to rewatch the video, instead they ask me, so to preserve my sanity I repeat important things. Ever notice how teachers in school repeat a lot?
I still can't understand why this hobby hasn't gone to RC. Sure, it would cost a lot to retrofit locos, but think of a layout where you don't have to worry about wiring the rails at all. With the popularity of drones, RC has gotten smaller and cheaper. Anyone who has ever spent an afternoon on their back trying to diagnose and fix some turnout wiring should be ripe for this change. Even switches can be controlled by RC and servos with no wiring. MR's are all about prototype. Let's go full prototype and make the engines carry their own power instead of having to get an electric engineering degree to figure out how DCC works. The hobby went from DC to DCC. It's time for the next generation - RC/bluetooth/wireless.
Watch my video on the Blunami decoders from SoundTraxx.
Check out Railpro from Ring Engineering.
❗ 𝙥𝙧𝙤𝙢𝙤𝙨𝙢
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