Audiophile-grade computer? Really? How do I get one?
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- čas přidán 19. 10. 2020
- #hifi #powersupply #audiophile #stereo #audioreviews
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My experience with upgrading my computer to an audiophile-grade computer.
Gear used in this review
HDPLEX 300W Linear Power Supply
Matrix element H Hi-Fi USB 3.0 Interface
Exasound E28 DAC
Mcintosh MAC 6700
Triangle GENÈSE TRIO speakers
Focal 1008 speakers
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Thanks Thomas ! Apos I will have to look them up 😃 thanks for the video
Amazing production quality Thomas! Keep em coming
Much appreciated!
Hard Drives always drove me nuts with their noise.. SSD was such an relief..
Yeah and it is getting cheaper too.
Great video, thanks. I use a raspberry pi with usb out from the company Allo, streaming from smartphone to the raspberry Pi transferring data to the DAC. Low powered barebone mini computer with linear power supply is the way to go 🤗
Thanks, great informative video. I have been interested in these power supplies for a while.
As for room treatments absolutely agree. I think a real difficulty for most people is measuring the room before and after. I am not saying you can't do it by ear. It's just quicker and more likely to be more accurate if you can measure the changes to see ( in addition to hearing) what effect the treatment is having.
The difference after room treatment will be so obvious that although have measurements is more precise, it is not necessary.
Hi Thomas. I saw your video on the Topping D90 so I purchased that and a laptop and use the two for all my windows music using both Jriver and iTunes. Sounds awesome.
Congrats, glad it worked out for you.
This is so cool. I was just thinking about upgrading my computer to a little bit more music friendly option. It’s like you read my mind Thomas. Flawless victory.
Only do it as a last tweak!
@@ThomasAndStereo Roger thank you. I’m trying to find a good dac for my system that would be compatible with mqa files and could fold them so I could listen to master quality and do all three of the unfolds on tidal. And it also looking for a good streamer
I think like in many audio discussions it depends on the audio chain. Using a PC you have 2 main noise issues. The fan and electronic noise. I found a high quality CPU fan is key and for an audio system skip the video card (they generate so much heat) For electronic noise find a DAC /PC that uses USB in Asynchronous mode if you have a high quality DAC and the DAC needs to galvanically isolate the USD connection to remove the electronic noise
amazing video!
Its a couple years later and my dac has circuits to kill USB noise.
No need for crazy expensive cables either. Thank you topping.
Very interesting Thomas. I always enjoy your content/reviews. I think as long as I don’t listen to anyone’s system that “sounds better” than mine or step foot in a high end hifi store, I may be able to keep myself from spending anymore money on tweaks and upgrades. Ignorance is bliss in my case thank you very much😉
Watching Thomas and Stereo can be dangerous to your wallet. 🤣
Couldn’t agree more. When I go to a high end store I never listen to anything I could t realistically afford.
It is also possible to add the Burson Audio Stack (swing, fun, bang) into the CD player slot of the case.
Perfect timing Thomas! I just started investing in some room treatment. Actually, two bass traps from gik acoustics just arrived. I have the KEF LSX for nearfield use and I was honestly thinking of selling them. At that time, I didn't think they sounded bad but I didn't love its tonality. So, I decided to start on some room treatment first and gik acoustics helped me out and gave some great advice. I knew a treated room can be the difference between keeping or selling the speaker but I had no experience for myself. Now that I have my bass traps, the difference was real and effective! So glad that I started treating my room. Now, instead of saving up for speakers (decided to keep the LSX for now because of how much of a positive difference the bass traps made), I'll save it for room treatment! lol
Nice, it's incredible what room treatment can do.
GIK was a great choice! What I have --7 different pieces. They wanted me to go with 2 ceiling pieces as well but I am not quite comfortable hanging up there I think.
@@petekutheis3822 me too! Kind of don't want to drill holes on the ceiling. But I'll probably change my mind some time in the future.
My living room audio pc is a gigabyte auros ga 270x and i use it with a smsl sk10 usb dac(using the motherboard usb Dac up feature for more control of the voltage and cleaner signal theatrically) utilizing foobar ASIO payback . On my second gaming/audio computer i use a cheaper b350 strix motherboard with amd cpu and A Evga NU audio soundcard that i really like for it's sound quality on both the rca Output and headphone output that you can use at the same time. All of my power supply are seosonic gold.Thank you for sharing your experience.
Thomas, wow you make so many really great videos! I wanted to just comment that I had used the mac mini with Audirvana for my headphone amps and thought it would work well with my stereo system too. I tried it and then saw your video on Zenith streamer which then made me want to try out a streamer. Bluesound Node 2i was for me obvious starting point. The improvement over mac mini was huge. Darker background, then paired with smsl M400 a wider soundstage. When I removed the M400 the sound stage was slightly narrower but still present. Also, i think BlueOS app has a slightly better UI than Audirvana. Wish I could get my $100 back from Audirvana lol. Happy Listening!
Yeah, the difference is subtle but it is there.
Hello Thomas,
Did you try external linear power supply for the Matrix Element H-card though? Looking back at my exploration on this audiophile pc topic, I initially found out adding an external LPS to my JCAT USB Femto was at least as substantial if not more than adding a separate "HiFi-USB card" itself. That's the reason I thought to comment this video since you felt the external LPS to be added last in the computer audio setup. I don't know what would be the best way to compare my experience on sound difference than without LPS the sound was more "flatter" and more centered. Sound stage also expaned quite a lot when LPS was in play. Overall sound signature I felt was more natural without some grainness that comes with motherboard USB output using your standard ATX power supply. I have not tried separate LPS's powering up the computer, yet.
Although this has to be mentioned that of course it is first and foremost one's budget dependent issue. In prior buying the USB card I was somewhat uncomfortable to put few hundreds of euros for such card. You know, ones-and-zeros digital yada yada. I have added some fancy gear over time to my setup and few times I have occasionally tried temporary downgrading using just motherboards USB-outputs only to find out them to be quite unlistenable in relation to external LPS powered USB-card.
I once tried Matrix Element H also just to compare to JCAT USB Femto. I felt they were quite close in sound performance, slightly favored JCAT though but also to note that I owned it that time. Since then I upgraded recently to JCAT USB Xe card. Price is hefty but also are the improvement (especially with external good quality LPS). Of course, again one needs to prioritize own budget on this matter but once/if audiophile bug bites you, the journey is just beginning and few hundreds maybe are just small investment then :) But all in all sometimes it could be sensible to invest in source tweaks if one is hearing harshness and sibilants. I think on a good quality gear one's "sibilant" headphones can be more listenable.
I feel the saying "garbage in, garbage out" stands here. Good quality power seems to be important in these digital audio devices.
Also to note that some people are quite loud expressing about proven science and engineering theory. Well can't argue against science but just on philosophical standpoint, is one's learned engineering background everything that there is into this topic. What I have read on some computer audiophile related forums where also electric engineers and manufacturers post giving out some information about their devices, there might be more science yielding better sound on these noisy environments (computers and switching mode power supply's than most loudest ones can master and measure.
Keep on listening :)
Thanks Thomas, really enjoyed the video. I wonder if spending the money on a Innuos re-clocker and linear power supply would make a more significant improvement than changing the internal components on a PC. You are right, the room treatment and linear power supply would make more of a difference, but sadly those two areas don’t have the glamour of a new component in the hifi rack. Plus the partner factor has a big part to play with room acoustic treatment.
Yeah, sadly I would not know which is the better solution.
@@ThomasAndStereo I wouldn’t expect you to know, just food for thought as they say 🤔
Hey I love these audio nerd videos. Even though it want the desire you and I were hoping for but still excellent information.
Thanks!
My sunscreen is audiophile grade!
Have the Mk3. The difference between that and my iMac as a server was amazing, it lifts a veil you never realized was there because my system sounded pretty darn good before. I then added the Innuos Phoenix USB Reclocker and, my goodness, further improvement. Great video as always Thomas thank you
I currently run a Marantz 2325 with Yamaha NS-1000M speakers. My Source is a VPI Classic 3. My setup is in a 12x12 room. I could barely turn my volume up and I would get feedback into my system that would build upon itself and sounded dangerous. I could not have this!!! So I bought some bass traps for the rear corners and some sound foam panels for the side walls. Completely eliminated all bass bounce and feedback. My stereo never sounded so good. Room treatments are amazing.
I have the matrix element powered by an Sbooster also added the matrix spdif2 using the iIs port to your recommended smsl m400. Also have the tp-link for fiber optic connection . Very pleased with the sound sq from amazon hd and CZcams.
Nice! Hope the SMSL M400 is still keeping you happy.
I use the Matrix Element H connected to the Matrix SPDIF 2 via Matrix USB cable. I then connect up my active monitors set for digital input and connect with an AES Mogami Gold 3173 XLR cable. The SPDIF 2 is powered by external LPSU (@ 7v). Fantastic clean sound even from You tube etc. Monitors are studio level (Adam Audio SV3s), I built my PC and use an 850W Seasonic Titanium PSU with X299 MSI board and i9-7980XE (used and de-lidded).
What is your opinion about taking a motherboard with a ESS Sabre 9118 DAC built in and running high quality optical directly to a high end receiver? Such as a Sony ES, Marantz, or any other quality receiver brand. Or even a mid-range integrated amplifier such as a Cambridge audio CXA 81 or an Audiolab 6000A. Do you feel that there are inherent problems with noise going that route?
Thanks!
I use some iFi power adapter and usb adapter, at least better than stock. Did it work ? I dont think so, and i am glad it didnt, cos while it may clean up the higher end, it may also restrict the lower end according to others, or maybe the change is not to my liking. So I mostly tweak at the software level (wasapi, resampler, eq etc), and room acoustics.
This is one of the very Best T & S Videos Ever. With Truly Profound Advice for all those Computer based Audiophiles.
Thank you.
Thank Thomas, you are right , those upgrade are the last things to think of. It's more like testing if we can improve sound better and better, but when it's too much, we will lose something. Like i test many cables, even the most expansive power cord, it's not good in the front. Balancing a system to our ears it's hard. Like you said, ppl have to hear the different in room treated, and none to have an idea. Many give up because it's become insane, i must say it. but your passion is still there, so thank for testing for us :P
Thanks Khoa. Yeah, I have heard some systems where the owner 'over tweaked it' and I prefer before the 'upgrades'.
Thomas I’m listening to you, I stopped buying gear till I did room treatments and now fix my pc
Another way of upgrading your computer sound without getting into its internals is to install a high-end PCIe USB card like the JCAT FEMTO. You can then upgrade the card even more with an external power supply like the Uptone Audio LPS-1.2
Yeah, those are quite pricey.
I have the Matrix Element H USB card - Matrix Audio has confirmed to me via email that the card is entirely powered via the 3.3V PCIE connection - adding an external PSU via the 2.1mm barrel plug will only provide power to the device that is connected to the card via the USB plug - not the card itself
When I upgraded from Bluesound node 2i streamer to AURALIC Aries G2 the deference was huge (as it should be)
Thank you for another great video Thomas
Yup, you are the 2nd type of audiophile if you can hear the difference.
agree. I went from node 2i to a mytek dac+ and the upgrade was phenomenal.
Boris: “Heavy is good, heavy is reliable”
pc parts manufacturer's:WRITE THAT DOWN! ADD MORE WEIGHT TO OUR PRODUCTS
:D
next year we will have 10kg gpus :D
haha...add some sandbags to it.
@@ThomasAndStereo :D
@@ThomasAndStereo when i was like 15 years old i had pc speakers that had weights added to them ,i saw that because i took them apart and i thought that it was funny :D
Would be amazing if you could test a few streamers just as streamers. Not their DACs to see how different they are. For example. Is the Node as good as the Innuos just as a streamer using the same external DAc?
Great channel !
i have a HP Z840 for using the digital out to my denon A100 sacd player's digtal In,
Hello. I am using Matrix X-Hi USB 3.0 card on my desktop computer. It makes real big difference. Do you think Matrix Element H is much better than Matrix X-Hi USB card? I am also using ifi micro idac2 DAC and feeding it with powerbank. I also have ifi gemini 3.0 dual-headed USB cable. Power connector is connected to powerbank and data connector is connected to Matrix X-Hi USB card. Should I feed the card with linear power supply or is it enough to feed the Dac with powerbank? Thanks
I wonder if the power supply would improve the sound of the node 2i when used as a dac and streamer?
I think the power supply is build in the node 2i unlike the exasound which is external. So I don't think you can use it with the Node 2i.
Great video. I bypass a PC in the listening room by using a NAS. I recently upgraded my streamer to an Allo USBridge signature. To my ears it made a difference over the Hatted raspberry pi I was using. I will have a look at this power supply since the USBridge's power supply can be upgraded.
Yeah, streamer is the way to go, only thing is I can't listen to music from youtube with a streamer.
@@ThomasAndStereo You dont have any sort of video streaming box or a game console? They will all most certainly have CZcams along with an optical output for your DAC. It will also allow you to use your phone as a remote.
@@dajikbatarang1 I have an Xbox 360 but that thing is noisy. I use my computer also with Jriver.
@@ThomasAndStereo Maybe try something like the Nvidia shield or Xiaomi Mi box. Darko made a video on the latter. If Jriver supports upnp or dlna, put your music on a NAS and control via Jriver on a laptop. Noisy PC completely removed and streamer in full use.
I’ve been interested in a USB streamer, I want to move away from Coax on the Allo Digione Signature. I’m investiging in to DSD music, which is the reason I want to move on to USB. Possibly the Innuos Zen Mini or see what Bluesound have to offer
Is this all required if I have my laptop connected to a router via a Ethernet cable and then music streamed wirelessly to a Roon endpoint? The endpoint has a LPS. It then connects via USB to the RME ADI-2 DAC FS. Roon lifetime is probably cheaper than upgrading the computer.
Hey, Thomas! I haven't commented on your videos lately because I've just been too bust enjoying my system as it is.
I purchased the Musical Paradise MP301 tube amp because of your review , and have been very happy with it.
Later, also because of your review, I added the Musical Paradise MP-D1 tube dac. For me, this was a killer combo.
I then added the Musical Paradise MP Berry music server, which is a windows 10 computer running Foobar.
It is a fanless computer with a linear power supply and a cpu that doesn't draw much power.
I find that all three products have a good synergy, and I do believe that the value and quality far surpass the very affordable prices for these units.
I( have implicated almost all of the suggestions made by Shingnosis in his (her?) comment regarding computers as a source, except that I use the USB software that Musical Paradise supplies.
I am sure that there are better setups out there, but they are all way more costly than these Musical Paradise products, and frankly, using these products gives me a very satisfying sound that i enjoy enough that I rarely think of trying to improve it!
Wow! Good to hear from you, I should call you Mr Musical Paradise 🤣
@@ThomasAndStereo Sounds good!
I use Denon SACD DCD-A100 which has a superb DAC to connect to the TV (connected to my mini PC). bypassing the PC soundcard. I enjoy the youtube music via this SACD DAC and Sansui amplifier.
Nice, the big question is if you upgraded the USB and power supply of your mini PC, will it improve the sound further?
I've connected my laptop, and my TV to different DACs, and the computer always sounds better. A TV is a horrible source. And it's still adding the computer noise to your DAC too, in fact it's just adding more noise to your whole system. LCD screens make a ton of noise. And it's not galvanically separated. So now you have computer, and TV noise. Instead of just computer noise.
Do yourself a favor, and try the computer hooked directly to the SACD player. If it doesn't have a USB input. Go get a Topping D10 USB DAC. It has optical, and coaxial out. Plus a really good USB input. It's only about $65,or so. I got one for $50. And don't be surprised if the Topping sounds better then the SACD player on its own either. Get it from Amazon, or somewhere you can return it, just in case. But I'm quite sure you'll be keeping it. Good luck. ✌️
Would you please explain what technical aspect of the digital signal transmission alters the analogue production of the DAC? (i.e. blacker background, wider soundstage, etc.)
Can't get my head around it. Given that any crappy machine can send a complete and identical digital information to another machine (but possibly at different speed/timing), seems like if the DAC design is slightly intelligent and does some data buffering before the D to A conversion, then the power supply of the digital source shouldn't matter, having perfect digital data in its cache. So is it possibly the DAC's fault for being sensitive to "bad" digital signal? (Sorry, this just my rudimentary logic)
If I can explain it, I will be rich. This is a bit like cable debate, can anyone explain the science? Many have tried but not convincing enough in my opinion. Can anyone hear the difference with cables and music servers? A significant amount of people can and cannot. Just need to have a controlled blind AB test to put all this debating to rest.
@@ThomasAndStereo Lol, true. Personally, I do understand the rationale behind differences if signals are already analogue (e.g. speaker cable, interconnects, etc), but can't get my head around digital (not saying it's not true)
@@netnakul check out Hans B. Channel he explains the ones and zeros very well.
Less noise and distortions in general, but also better shape and quality of digital signal.
Funny enough even music media player programs can sometimes sound different.
Thomas i just tried something new and my laptop streamer is at a new level.
I created an hybrid usb cable with 2 usb A on one side(for the computer and a 5v lpsu) and one Usb B on the other side for the dac.
That way no need for a fancy usb module. I bypassed the 2 wires in the usb cable physically to create a plug for it's own power supply that way the bad power coming from the computer doesn't get to the dac. The 3 wires for data + data - and otg are still connected between the computer and dac.
The results are amazing ! And it cost almost nothing to create such a cable. You'll need a 5v lpsu tho but it is less expensive than those audiophile usb card and more effective because you start with a new non tainted power.
I also added a lpsu to my laptop. I gotta find a way to put my hands on those innuos thing for comparison because I feel i made it.
Wow! Thanks for sharing.
@@ThomasAndStereo *add on : When i added the lpsu to the laptop, the difference was small. When i changed the cable for this new tweak the difference was major. Bigger than the lpsu on the laptop. But LPSU on laptop + LPSU on usb cable was a Big Jump.
But this thing is easier to do on a laptop than a desktop computer. On a desktop you'll need to build a massive LPSU ( a proper one with different winding on the transformer for everything in the computer) But the gain can be massive, to the innuos statement level.
That is my next goal.
I'm learning LPSU design and filters designs. I just succeded reverse engineering the JCAT optimo 3 duo for 300 euro instead of 1500. Same components, same design and i can even go further they use mid level capacitors and active regulators. I can put Mundorf AG instead and Muse passive regulators.
I'm feeling good today :)
single board computer is the way to go because you don't need to spend a lot on power supply. the lower clock also useful for reducing the noise. i build a linear PSU for my UDOO x86 and the change was significant : exactly as you described. and the best part is i don't need a single fan to cool it off. total silence !
Yeah, there is so much to learn on tweaking computers.
thomas: have you done a/b blind testing video or thoughts on the camp that believes all good measuring amps and dacs should sound the same, otherwise placebo effect is in play? like the asr forum members.. would be an interesting topic
Nah, it will be an endless pointless argument and my goal is not to convince anyone. People who are open minded and have similar experience as me will understand me and that is all I need. Jay at the next best thing did a blind test video with cables.
Can u find out if there is audiograde HD docking usb ? Thanks
Hi Thomas, I have a keen interest in putting all my CDs onto a NAS drive, but would like to build my own using an existing pc which I no longer use. Would this be possible if I upgraded the fan, drive units, power supply and CPU? Would you consider putting together a video of such a project for novices like me? Thanks for the interesting video.
I am moving towards making video on streamers actually as I am no expert with Audiophile PC.
Hi. For pc i recomand siching off all usb that you don t use. ( keep just 1 on ) disable HT, disable intel speed ( is modulatinc the power and speed that you cpu is running ) not use anything like hhd jus ssd, izolating the vibtions and use a longer usb cable to put the pc out of the lisening room. And tray a streamer the cc audio or the new old xiaomi mi x box. With a nas on the same network. Xiaomi can be use with usb dac and you can a/b :D
Not gonna lie, I paused at 6:23 to judge your thermal paste application 🤣.
Haha, I had to scratch off the original ones and the new one was on the fan already.
I am going to start with a question what is your source for daily listening ok what I really what to know is do you listen to music by watching you tube? its okay if you do I am not doubting your audiophile street cred I was just curious I do listen that way sometimes but I prefer playing thru cd player or my library thru dac to intergrated amp. or do you show the videos just for effect when making videos, thanks for the videos I enjoy them
I use CDs, CZcams and jriver playing cdrips from my hard drive. I used to only listen to good recorded music but now is everything. I was also using sportify and Tidal for a while. The thing is I like covers and some Chinese oldies and I can only find those on CZcams.
Cool toys ! I had no idea anyone made a linear pc power supply ! I want to ask if you use a power conditioner or just a filtered power strip? I keep getting advertisement for PS Audios power regenerators. I don't think im up to that level yet.
None but I do have a dedicated outlet installed.
Would love to hear your thoughts on Allo Usbridge vs an audiophile computer as a music streamer or server. That would be an interesting shootout.
I actually was looking at those solutions at one point but gave up because I needed the flexibility of windows.
@@ThomasAndStereo can you borrow from allo to review?
When I have time, I can email them. Right now, too many things lined up.
The proper use is to connect the computer to the USBridge over the network, and that into the DAC.
This is what the USBridge was designed to do, it is a renderer like the micro-rendu or sotm neo 200.
Leave playing and serving to the computer, and let the USBridge do the rendering.
You are a mad lad , great job . I was wondering about this USB card and if it was snake oil. Also I'm worried that you built that computer on the carpet due to the ESD , but if you had bare feet on the carpet you are probably ok .
Some USB chips are better than others, and generally USB is not preferred for audio signals. So yes, I can see a point in having dedicated USB card just for audio, especially if it can be isolated from other devices on MB with cleaner voltage supply.
I would love to hear a comparison between zenith and macmini running audirvana. From the other hand I will get a zen mk3 on trial and do this precise comparison.
Let me know the results.
@@ThomasAndStereo Will do here, under this comment
I’m waiting for that comment)
@@Another_Audiophile waiting.
@@adelkharisov @Oleksii Filippov I tried the zen mk3 3 on my room with my speakers and gear, I used mainly Harbeth P3ESR and monitor audio gold 200 5G connected to my Yamaha A-S300. The dac was the Chord Qutest. I listened to a variety of music and genres with audiophile and heavily compressed tunes. I tried but I couldn't hear the difference. Maybe is my gear, room or taste of music but in my case the macmini running audirvana was as good as the zen mk 3.
After switching to Vintage Sansui g-7500 and nice streamer , modern problems ,statistics , wires , and all that crap is gone to me WHAT A RELIEF !!!!!!
Thomas have you tried the Roon Nucleus?
No I have not. Roon is 'expensive'!
Hi Thomas, excellent video on tweaking your audio system, please keep them coming! I did notice those lovely Triangle Genese Trio speakers in the background, are you planning to critique them in the future? I believe your viewers would appreciate your opinion of them. Cheers.
Yes I will review them.
Fantastic! Many viewers enthusiastically await your critique !
You can use a massively overpowered PSU and a massive radiator. I use a 560mm rad with an rtx3080 and Ryzen 7800x with a 1000w PSU. The water loop needs 3 liters of water so it basically cools by thermal mass and with the massive rad passively when not under load and without oc.
Ah, this is a whole new world. Shingnosis is 100% correct; bypass of the windows audio driver is essential. If you're feeling adventurous, I highly recommend www.phasure.com/index.php?topic=4218.msg44532#msg44532 the xxHighEnd software for Windows. It is a tweaker's dream. You will drive yourself crazy tuning everything to your delight. If nothing else, the "Minimal OS" playback setting is a revelation. Additionally, EVERY computer part makes a difference, including the amazingly smooth sound I get from an old internal WD7200RPM hard drive compared to a SSD (common wisdom says I should get a cleaner sound from the SSD!!) or even USB sources. Must be synergy. I wish I had the budget to go linear supply, but I'm a dabbler and use comp for my Sennheiser HD580s. Love your channel!
Oh my are those the Genese Trio or Sig. Thetas? Please do a comparison against the S400.
Those are the Trio, I no longer have the S400 :(
Hi Thomas, could you pls review the Matrix element X DAC/Amp since Apos carries it. Appears to be a v highly rated all-in-one player. Thks
$3k! Omg, I probably can get it but how many people are willing to spend $3k on a Chinese DAC?!!!
@@ThomasAndStereo it's much more than just a dac
i would love to upgrade my old pc server in regards to audio quality. However, my system is in another room connected via ethernet. it doesnt seem any of your proposal (i maybe incorrect) would improve my pc sound quality?
I would say deal with this after you have upgraded everything else. Probably you get more return by upgrading your streamer.
@@ThomasAndStereo thanks for that advice. a streamer is the way to go for me. just need a good one for a reasonable price
Hi Thomas I want to know about the acoustic panels n where to buy
They are vicoustic panels, sold at many dealers.
Im using an older Mac book pro (early 2011), ssd, iTunes, Audirvana+, USB connection to a benchmark DAC2 (with external power supply), Class D Poweramplifiers and AOS Studio 24XL speakers with additional subwoofer.
All together sounding excellent.
Congrats!
This might be a holy grail of a thread.
Hello Thomas, while it seems reasonable that a more stable power supply can improve the analog output of a DAC, I cannot understand what the tuning of the PC - when it does not contain the DAC - could improve sonically besides the PC itself having less noise.
Anyway, I always enjoy your videos, BR, Joe
Sure, it could have done nothing and what I heard was simply from the USB card or better linear power supply with the DAC. I changed multiple things at the same time and unfortunately, I cannot AB test it. So that is why I had to be clear what I did because what you ask is a valid question.
@@ThomasAndStereo there's no logical reason for usb card to make a difference. Maybe it would effect latency but that's it. If you heard a difference it's a placibo effect. Your power supply upgrade for the DAC could definitely make an improvement though.
@@ThomasAndStereo
Main thing it would be to isolate Audio USB signal from others. Also not all USB chips are alike. Best would be to look at the signal with Spectrum Analyzer to see which signal is cleaner.
dont ever work on a computer on a carpet. cheers another great video
Ah, static, you are right!
I'm an IT Systems Architect with 28 years experience building servers, clusters and CDN Networks all around the globe. If you would have asked me a few years ago if this level of detail/effort spent on 'audiophile' PC's was necessary, I would have laughed in your face.
Then, some years ago I listened to a USB DAC with a tube-rectified power supply. Since you could turn off the tube-rectifier with a dedicated button on the DAC, it was very easy to compare the output with rectified power vs without. So, imagine my surprise when the sound noticeably changed depending on the rectifier being on or off. The rectifier isn't even part of the signal chain, all it does is convert AC to DC, the DC being used internally by the actual circuitry. But, without the rectifier the sound was noticeable 'grainier', and less focused, and it was very noticeable. And no - 'confirmation bias' doesn't apply, since I considered that on/off switch and rectifier to be a bit of a gimmick, and didn't expect it to do anything:)
There's plenty of good advice in the video and the comments, if you're into digital audio keeping the signal as clean as possible is an absolute must. The only thing I would add is the importance of bit-matched playback, which is a topic you can google and find plenty of information on.
Yeah, I have met computer engineers and electrical engineers myself who told me that although they cannot explain it, they can hear differences.
@@ThomasAndStereo I also can't explain why output coupling caps, typically found in tube pre-amplifiers, also have a distinct 'sound', even though their electrical properties/capacitance are identical... it makes no sense, at all. On my main pre-amp I 've added two outputs, each one with it's own pair of coupling caps, one pair being Teflon based, the other Copper based. Despite the caps having identical capacitance, they sound completely different, which to the amazement of my friends, I have demo'ed many times over the years. There's obviously some quantum effect going on, and smarter people than me will hopefully figure it out one day:)
@@decoryder Yep it kinda blows a hole in the thinking of the ''if you can't measure it it does not exist'' crowd. Components that measure the same can sound vastly different.
I usually open the PS to check what's in it, then modify if necessary to get cleaner voltage lines. Sometimes I do same to MB, add or change caps here and there. Generally PC is not the best place for music signal, especially if used for something else at the same time as load goes up and down, voltage changes as well as PWM duty cycle, traces and signal pads crisscross. Then ground loops, bla, bla, bla. Yeah, Linear PS is the best option but even then, MB has its own PS section and voltage regulation. As for serious DAC, always get one with separate PS that has actually good voltage regulator in it. Ah, many years ago I played with AC line filters and took measurements of AC line frequency, but the DMM would show 120Hz. Later I did the same thing but it showed 60Hz - problem was that the PCs rather economical power supply would somehow inject 2nd harmonic back into power line. Too bad I don't have Spectrum Analyzer, it would be interesting what kind of junk is ridding on top of the AC line sine wave.
@@decoryder
Paul Carlson, I think, did explain why in tube equipment caps actually have directionality, no BS, as he showed the distortion and other measurements. Also some caps winding technique, materials used introduce distortions. Cyril Bateman wrote articles for Electronics World re capacitor distortions with measurements, especially electrolitics. Worth reading.
a 50€ raspberry with volumio will do the job. Expecially powered through battery
Hi there .. the linear power supply .. can it be used for 2 turntables and a mixer
It should, just take a look at the photo of the back of this PS and see if the voltage and AMP matches what you need.
@@ThomasAndStereo thanks for the heads up ... not sure about compatibility but it would save money if it could do 4 components .. an average linear supply is prob £300/400 .. obviously there’s a bit more to it but yeah, I’ll run it by an engineer .. DJ Equipment is notoriously poor on sound unless you go boutique rotary and then there’s less sound manipulation available .. thanks again x
DACs have been isolating signals for quite some time. If your DAC is that much affected by USB input and power supply, it's not a very good DAC.
According to it's specification page, your ExaSound e28 ALREADY has shielding from USB interference, so that Matrix Audio USB card adds absolutely nothing and does not change audio quality. And by measurements we know that jitter over USB is not a thing, no matter the cable quality.
From ExaSound e28 page:
Host Noise Rejection: Galvanic isolation between the USB subsystem and the DAC circuitry eliminates ground loop noise and blocks computer-generated interference
The one caveat to using a soundcard is that the PCIe bus is VERY noisy and generates broadband, gaussian switching noise that often gets thru the soundcard with at least a few mV of amplitude. By the time this goes thru the amplifier, it can be well over a volt or more p-p, which will cause some faint hiss (think good quality analog tape type hiss). Its not as bad as it appears as most of this goes well up into the RF spectrum, and will be knocked out by the RF filtering in the input stages of the amplifier. A bigger problem is if the amplifier is not VERY well isolated (grounded input stages will be a disaster if they do not use good star-point grounding in the amp). I ended up building my own amplifier with an SMPS because it was much easier to isolate than a large transformer with its large inter-winding capacitance. If the isolation is poor, there will be extreme noise and harsh 50/60Hz background hum from the computers power supply (and even the amplifier's) forming AC ground loops with the amplifier. If you can, get something external with its own dedicated power supply that will be quieter. Another issue I ran into with the Soundblaster Z is large DC offsets in the 5.1 outputs. Up to 30-40mV, which may cause issues if there is not good DC compensation in the amplifiers. At the very least, it caused lots of turn-on thump in the powered sub, so Im using the standard stereo output that has DC blocking caps on the card so I dont have an earthquake when the PC powers up. Downside is a 45Hz roll-off in the bass response, but it will do for the time being.
Interesting. Thanks for sharing.
This is not a sound card, but a USB card. There is no analog signal here. It is just having a better isolated USB port (not sharing with computers generic USB hub) and using as a transport to DAC's USB input instead of a generic motherboard USB port as a transport.
@@ridingdreamer My comments were more general, if I recall. Something to be mindful of when using a PC as a source if you are using the internal hardware. Some soundcards actually do have near SOTA performance, which is nice as you don't have to have the dongle to deal with, and some can also drive multiple outputs with one-click source selection which is a plus if you have speakers or headphones. There are enough of the internal ones worth using that it warrants consideration. The Soundblaster AE-7 with a class-AB onboard amp is the best one I have found thus far, with very low noise and distortion
One day we will get audiophile-grade homes LOL!!! I have good hopes!! :)
Amazing video like always Thomas :)
Not going to lie, the first thing that popped into my mind is that Costco sweat top. Back onto topic, great subject for the PC master race who want to get into audio.
It is!
Why do you have a Mac mini in your thumbnail when it is not mentioned at all in the video?
I APPRECIATE YOUR OBJECTIVE HARD WORK
BUT I HAVE TO KEEP IT SIMPLE AND THAT MEANS JUST OBSERVING 😊
Knowing you’re helping many others who can use what you are doing
Thomas, I have an off subject question for you. I thought a while back you reviewed an Emotiva amp, so that's why I'm asking you. I never heard any of their products before, but saw a lot of reviews with satisfied owners. I wanted an external two channel amp to run my front main towers on a surround sound system in one of my living rooms. I do sometimes play stereo through that system, but it's not one of my dedicated stereo systems, so I wasn't looking for high ender, but something with good power, clean signal and lowish cost. So I ordered what looked to me as their best stereo amp, that being the XPA Gen3 Differential Reference. This has two amp boards per channel, making a stated 650W per channel output into 8ohms. On paper, that would be the most powerful amp I've ever purchased. I bought it as new, not refurbished. When I got it, I heard a rattle inside the chassis. Turns out there was a small screw rolling around in there, so I took the top of and removed it. Could not find where it should go if at all, may have been accidentally dropped in during assembly. So right out of the gate, I'm not feeling confident in the purchase. Hooked it up to the front mains and it only sounded marginally louder than going directly out of the AV receiver at any given volume. This was shocking as I expected it to be twice as loud and have to drop it a few DBs to match the center and surround speakers balance, but didn't have to. Then there is the sound. The bass seems strong, but the highs are rolled off and mids were way laid back. Not at all what I expected. I switched out the input cables to very bright cables and that did improve the top end, but it sounded kind of gritty with what seems like a touch of distortion. I tried the amp on a different pair of speakers and got the same result. My question is, did you get a similar impression from the amp you tested, i.e is this just the way Emotivas sound? I have several other amps that are 200Wpc and less that seem just as powerful and more detailed, both warm and bright sounding amps. Not sure what to do with this amp I just want to get an understanding of what to expect so I know nothing is wrong with it, especially after finding that loose screw in it. Thanks
Hi Taz, I remember mentioning that one issue I had with the Emotiva amp is the top end. I wish it was a bit more refined because I find it a bit harsh. That might be why you find it 'gritty'. The non-differential version top end was not roll-off, but at the same time not hyper detail when compared to a higher-end amp.
For me, more power does not mean more volume. More power means you can bring it to a higher volume without distortion. If you feel that it is not as powerful, it could be because you are used to higher-end amps and quality watts? Why don't you just return it if it does not work for you?
@@ThomasAndStereo Thanks Thomas. The amp does its job well as part of a surround system, but I agree, the top end is not refined enough for me to like it for stereo listening and I like a more prevalent midrange. It is powerful and I have not maxed it out, but I did find it's shortcomings to be consistent at any volume, so it isn't like falling apart at high volumes. I completely agree about the volume vs power analysis. In fact, one of my "weakest" amps (a hybrid integrated tube amp), is also amongst my favorites. It only has 65 Wpc, and seems to effortlessly push a lot of different speakers (efficient or not) to fairly high volume (all but those concert like levels) with linearity and clarity. It's the sound quality that I can listen to for hours on end. With the Emotiva, I'm still a bit intrigued with the differential reference setup, so I'm going to try pairing it with a few different components before I decide to liquidate it. Thanks T.
@@CUDAbuster They have a trial period so if it does not work for you, return it.
Thomas, just giving a quick update on my findings with the Emotiva XPA-DR. As I mentioned previously, I was initially experiencing a gritty sound on the top end and lackluster detail. After that, I ran the amp continuously for about a day and a half and since then ran it about two hours each day. It seems to have broken in and actually sounds very clean now with good detail. I'm guessing the capacitors needed a lot of cycling before they settled in. Remember that there are two amps per channel in the chassis (i.e. differential). I currently have it hooked up to a pair of Polk Lsim707 towers and have been playing a lot of classical music to hear the nuances. I have become quite pleased with this amp, especially considering I did not purchase it for dedicated stereo application, but to run the front channels in a surround system. I now think the DR can serve as a good primary stereo amp if coupled with a good DAC and preamp. Another benefit is that it stays relatively cool after working it hard for a couple hours continuous.
@@CUDAbuster Hey Taz, so it needed break in then. Thanks for the update and glad you are enjoying it. Perhaps one day I should give their DR line a try. Right now I am reviewing a pair of speakers from them.
I really appreciate you taking the time to type up an update for me and glad it pairs well with the 707.
Just because the mac mini has a clean looking exterior doesn't mean it's good for sound. I watch with amusement as audiophiles rush towards them because they think they look "clean". They've got the same careless crap inside as any computer. But it's amusing to watch. So thanks fellas for providing the show!
Do audiophile buy Mac mini because they think it is a great audiophile computer? Where did you hear that? I don't follow forums so I don't know.
I use battery to power my Dac. No noise.
is there a good mobile or tablet control for pc streaming?
Sorry, I don't know. Roon?
@@ThomasAndStereo ya i have debated it just being cheap lol
Try Audirvana on the pC and the iPhone app. I think Audirvana do a trial period
Man if people only spent half as much $ on acoustic treatment as they do dac's , fancy cables, and various snake-oil devices like "anti resonance audio racks to improve the sound quality of solid state devices" - they would very quickly hear very significant and appreciable improvements in sound quality . After buying quality components to begin with, acoustic treatment should always be the next "upgrade", theres much better bang for buck and its future proof/gear-agnostic - a good treated room will always provide good improvements with any gear going forward.
(I dont know why so man dont get this... theres a reason theatres and good concert halls and studios etc. are full of acoustic treatment ...)
Sound treatment requires dedicated room and/or understanding wife. Slipping a new DAC into a system might be an easier upgrade path then convincing her that a giant base trap in the corner is acceptable.
@@theallblack1407 Does she display the balls she took from you on the mantle of her extravagantly appointed living room as well? If you do not even have a single room you can arrange as you see fit, just FFS.
There it is, watching now
Yeah, I reuploaded the video cause the other one had mistakes.
@@ThomasAndStereo glad I watched it. Its not something I would ever do but I keep learning. I use a laptop mainly to control my streamer and show what the streamer is playing. Might use it for playing CZcams music on rare occasions (or your videos!)
Have you tried HQ Player yet? Recommended!
Link?
@@ThomasAndStereo www.signalyst.com/consumer.html I use it to cover PCM to DSD256/512, which makes a difference with certain DACs.
Was sound improvement better than from a battery powered laptop?
Good question, I don't know.
but at least you're happy with the power unit, aren't you?
Have you listened to focal kanta 3?
No I have not.
@@ThomasAndStereo Thank you for the response. intrigued but apparently they're new and not many used units for sale yet. I did find a sit on ebay up and Canada I guess not that far for you but I'm in Kentucky so I don't wanna go through the passport thing and all that.I'll probably just wait on these and get something more available and then you know year or so search for these.
Pure silver cables, Tripp Lite Isobar (no chord) and NCF filtering all the way!
I clean it even further by adding a small obsidian crystal pyramid touching the Tripp Lite.
12 ga USB cable next?
I just can't see using a 800$ power supply for a 800$ computer to drive a $200 sound card... but back a few years I was keen to improve things... I did 3 things to my computer, and the sound improvements were quit dramatic. I put in a Pangea power cord and a Seasonic power supply (2nd from top of line, $130). That improved things considerably. I also installed one of these- Elfidelity USB Power Source PC HiFi Preamp Internal Filter For USB Audio Device - which you can find on the Ebay for about $60, a less costly version of the same idea as the 250$ unit you're talking about here. This item I have a/b tested and the difference had me purchasing one, for the 2nd audio computer here at my lodge, within 2 minutes... All in all quite a good upgrade, but unlikely anywhere near the 5k$ innuos unit.
Nice, yeah there are more cost-efficient solutions out there.
Same. I use some iFi power adapter and usb adapter, at least better than stock. Did it work ? I dont think so, and i am glad it didnt, cos while it may clean up the higher end, it may also restrict the lower end according to others, or maybe the change is not to my liking. So I mostly tweak at the software level (wasapi, resampler, eq etc), and room acoustics.
@@ThomasAndStereo Funny thing, after this post of yours and my commenting I thought about things for a bit and realized I never put a better (shielded etc~ the pangea unit...$65, not a lot, and hardly more than building an insufficient cable) on the project rigs source computer. So I pirated one from the other source computer... a decided improvement, not one that somebody unfamiliar with the rig would mention casually, but for sure lower noise and better everything... in audio land... worth the $65... Cheers.
Hi,Thomas
recently I just bought sotm audio switch, it changes the sound when listening music via tidal,Qubuz and Nas. It provide more clarity, separation and especially the bass more deeper and impact.
it is worthy to upgrade.
Nice, I have a SOTM too. I never spent time with it, maybe I should.
What happened to the SVS amp review?
Still breaking in.
@@ThomasAndStereo I'm looking forward to it, no pressure! Lol.
Hi Thomas, since you're familiar with PC building and PC components, why don't you explore the audiophile PC soundcards (mostly PCIe soundcards), for example: Creative Soundblasters, ASUS Essence Series, EVGA Nu Audio etc. I know it's old school but it's very convenience that you use PC and many audio enthusiasts are still using PC.
I do have one of those Asus Xonar sound cards actually. That one does lag behind my DAC in performance. It is not as analog-sounding as I like. Maybe I should try changing the OPAMPs in it.
I just dont see the need for my pc to be even close to my hifi, it seems irrelevant and my digital files are on a nas.
I do however use componants chosen for better audio quality, but thats because i record and produce on it.
Appreciate the videos you do and that you are happy to simply listen and enjoy your music, but im afraid im someone who believes that zeros and ones cannot be anything other than zeros or ones, so if your dac does the jitter and timing im not surprised i never hear a difference in, say, usb cables, despite hearing big differences for analogue cables.
Better power supplies for almost any hifi companant seem to help... Electrical ones of course!
My 10 year old MacBook Pro outputs full resolution Amazon HD via USB direct to my DAC. Without spending a fortune, I can’t think of a significant improvement over this basic setup.
Yeah, a lot of people us this kind of solution. Probably one of the best performance you can get for the money.
I'm not convinced by the linear power supply actually is better and might be adding more noise in the 50 60 and 120hz range what is not good for audio, what is eliminated in a good quality switch mode power supply running at 120 kilohertz. The biggest problem I think with computers switch-mode power supplies is they are inside the unit causing admitting radio interference emi, with a switch mode power supply has to be in its own case grounded outside the unit a little distance away the cables have to be shielded in a metal conduit shower hose would be good, that is grounded. ideally with a ferrite bead of one turn on the positive leads and filter caps of 1uF and 0.1uF on each power terminal that would be the 3- volts 5-volt and 12- volts respectively. Switch mode power supplies should be used on valve equipment for the purposes I'm saying is a lot of noise on valve equipment at 50/60 and 120Hz this is completely eliminated with a smps above the audio spectrum
With modern streamers, a PC isn’t necessary for playback only systems. Properly designed audio equipment doesn’t need: power conditioning, re-clocking, etc. An example in the computer realm is the Cherry USB, which delivers an electrically isolated coax SPDIF stream to drive an external DAC. The Cherry 130dB+ DAC DAC 2 HS eliminates the concern over jitter with internal re-clocking and drives amplifiers directly with true balanced, DC coupled outputs. As far as streamers go, we use a Node 2i (
Yup, that is the advantage of a streamer. I forgot to mention it in the video, the reason why I did not get a streamer is because part of my source is youtube and streamers can't stream from youtube. That is why I need to use a computer. I had it in the original video this comment but forgot about it when I re-filmed it. I will be making some videos on streamers and this is a talking point.
I compliment the systems appearance, it is very clean and will sell visually to a general consumer base.... No hard intentions meant, so please pardon the constructive criticism ......One cannot achieve any kind of uncolored, clean audio reproduction using flimsy electronics. That modular PC audio cards board has no visible/logical components to harness/execute proper signaling. The amplifier seems robust to an untrained eye, with a decent looking transformer in the housing, but look close at the capacitors......can't see the output IC's clearly, they are type and configuration is important as well as others. Software based processing can help, but must be used with real electrical hardware. Having been in the AV Engineering, design and development for over 4 decades have I never heard or seen such products promoted in the Pro AV Industry as well as long time HIFI enthusiasts. The word Audiophile is a ruse. Good work though, keep experimenting.....Just think there is a little snake oil in the presentation. Good luck!
I didn't quite get how you supply the power to a PC? PC uses multiple voltages, doesn't it
Yes, it has 4 output and different voltage.
Ok. Got it. there is a voltage divider available on the same website
Grasping at straws…….sibilance……hours later….broken in quieted down, my ears that is. My ears are now broken in. Ta-dah!
NUC i5 8GB RAM
SSD 1TB Samsung 860Evo
USB cable spliced into earth into power point, fixes ground loop hum and gives a massive noise floor drop.. Get new wall adaptor strip USB cable, outer jacket wired into Earth Pin (do not leave any stray wires to live or neutral, you blow it up or kill someone)
Upgrade PSU to lager external brick, older HP Laptops came with monster brick power supplies, re-terminate 19V input, massive noise floor drop.
Kill all start-up programs
Run JRiver
USB output, power data isolator (doukmall Ebay), isolates the PC noise on the power lines of USB
USB to DAC to PA
Cheap and super clean, no streaming if you use local SSD stored FLAC. Can be run without monitor, boot with no password run JRiver on startup and use Gizmodo app to control library.
Cool, thanks.
XLR-3 for DC Output is not a good idea...XLR-3 should be dedicated to microphone and line-in / line-out
The XLR-4 will be a better choice.
Thomas......, now upgrade your DC Cord to one from either Teddy Pardo or Gent Audio, but be certain to match both the type of DC barrel connector size, as well as polarity and thank me later.
I should reach out to Teddy Pardo, I always was curious about their stuff.
Good info but sonic transport i5 from small green computer with optic sig rendu blows the innuos away ..buy American Gear
Nice, So you got a chance to AB test it and the i5 is better? The Sonic transporter i5 looks amazing. I would love to get something like that but unfortunately I also need optical and coaxial output.
I did not ab was invited to hear at my green computer i trust andrew ive been threw two yrs of ab n demo n computer set ups just buying the rendu sig and i think im going with the i 9 sonic transport not saying innuos is not nice this is g cheaper and the i 9 with sig rendu smokes innuos signature model i should have rendu and transport monday then ill demo innuos against it for myself because ive spent 3 yrs loaning buying selling streamers and all ways of configuring and also found that with few gz or more streaming and files blow away any cd players n transports i have had my opinion ofcoarse . And i will get inniuos for demo and hear in my house a/b he wouldn't of said take few hour ride to hear it . If wasn't a solid measured and a/b ear tested statement .. great to see you do more with streaming . Thats the future .