Music Server/ Streamer. Its just a computer. Whats the big deal ?
Vložit
- čas přidán 12. 04. 2021
- Hey Gang, so here I reinforce my basic thought on Music servers and streamers is that they are computers optimized to output a music data bitstream, nothing more. In this video , I show pieces that start at $35 and go to $8K. and from $1500 to $8K they look to be pretty dang close at least hardware wise. Most software is available for either free, or about $300 . My point in this vid is that with a good basic computer that you put a Linux based OS on such as Euphony, or Volumio, or if you like Windows and prefer Fidelizer , Jriver or the like or ROON which works on both. The main idea is to have a decent computer (if you want to build one it means fanless chassis, motherboard with imbedded cpu say from Jetway (with PCIE slot for USB card), Memory 8GB minumum, outboard linear power supply with 2 outputs (One for Motherboard, one for the USB Card) and a USB output card/board from Matrix Audio if you choose to support China or for the audio purist the best available by many peoples accounts is the Jcat for $800. Once you have all these youll have in my opinion just as good sound as ANY server /streamer up to the big dog $30K Taiko Extreme which is where shit changes. And that server does you no good unless you have a very high perf rig.
This being said, It is my opinion. I could be wrong. I am open to be proven wrong by anyone who would like to showcase a product that will beat my homebuild with Jcat output card.
One step simpler is to buy a barebones computer from say Jetway which means its already in a fanless chassis ready to go with cpu and everything else except the memory sticks which you'll add. Keep in mind for the low price and convenience it will not be pretty as these are industrial computers which means they can be left turned on for like 10 years with no issues (see: built tough) and they may not have a slot for a USB card from a pcie slot.
In lieu of all the craziness building your own there are very reasonable solutions like the Fidelizer Nimitra for instance (I am the USA Distributor) and again I represent things I feel are the best for one reason or another. Fidelizer has a complete solution for roughly $2900 that includes a very good streamer along with an outboard Audiophile Ethernet data reconditioner (for your incoming feed) and a very high quality outboard linear power supply with 2 outputs , one for the Motherboard, and one for the Ethernet reconditioner. This price includes full support from Fidelizer who is able to handle support remotely including the ability to troubleshoot and get you up and running if you are down. This is rarely needed however, but a nice safety backup just in case. Fidelizer is my choice for the $3K server arena for a prebuilt plug and play.
Stay tuned as we keep on exploring the server thing ...
Great video on the explanation. I also built my own PC but do need to make some improvements. Question: In place of the dedicated USB Card, like the JCAT, have you heard of a product called the Optical Rendu by Sonore? It outputs from ethernet from your PC to fiber (through the Optical Rendu) then to your DAC. The Fiber run supposedly transfers Zero Noise. Seems like a cool concept and product. Wanted to see if you have an opinion or any experience with that? Thnx
Yes, its backwards, it changes =ethernet to optical then back to ethernet at the audio system.. so all that money spent, just to turn it back into wire so it can get polluted 1M before the DAC. The exact opposite makes sense. Change it from lossy to killer right before the DAC, My DAC does this , it accepts a ST glass digital fiber input..
Hi Mike,
Haven't watched your videos in a while but glad you are learning more and have a bit different opinions now since your original video from 2 years ago debunking music server/streamers. From my experience - the most important factors in determining how good a music server/streamers audio quality output will be the quality of the power supply feeding all the components in the server (net/usb cards, ssds, cpu etc) and also the playback software/operating system optimizations to minimize interfering processes that can affect CPU utilization and playback quality. I have gone through a variety of upgrades and my favourite server before was the Antipodes EX. Now though I am running just my regular PC with JCAT Net XE and USB XE powered by an external LPSU and windows 10 with headless playback from my android using either Bubble UPNP or TIDAL. Sounding quite sublime. Also, draining a lot of noise from my digital components into a CAD GC3 grounding unit. Digital audio is improving by the day. As always great to see this and I'm up for talking/discussion. Have a good one sir :)
Yeah, I'm getting older and chilling out as well..lol. I think the DAC is by far the most important part of a digital rig. The higher one goes the less the source affects the overall sound. I'll be trying Jcat today !
Sorry to hijack the convo, can you please clarify if the usb card is recommended because it is meant to be connected to a DAC directly connecting to the server?
Wouldn't the least amount of conversions and shortest distance to the amplified sound the best? Such as a CD playing vs converting it to a file format, storing on a computer and then playing it thru a streamer? There is alot going on in between till it hits the amplifier.
What a great tutorial man. I just bought an evo 432 for 2800 a demo unit which are 3500 new. I know they probably only have a grand in it or less so it was very hard to spend this much but what are we gonna do if we can't build our own! I don't have the unit yet but I can't understand how do I get a library on it? I have to stream from another source so do I need a streamer also? Any help appreciated.
I just built a fanless mini itx pc with fanless dc to dc power supply, and it has optical spdif output that supports 192k, so I will stream all my library from a 12GB External USB 3.0 HDD to my DAC in DoP mode. My first comparison test was switching from a notmal pc to an Intel NUC via usb and somehow noticed better sound and less noise obviosly from removing power supply and CPU fans off the equation. I am using JRiver and Fidelizer software and Gizmo in my android device to control the server via WiFi.
This is helpful at least in reinforcing what I suspected...would you also do any correction at server/streamer level? I'm experimenting with Volumio and it has plug ins for DSP and equalizer...I'm always hopeful I can make some of my great music/crappy recordings sound better. So improving at server would keep everything in digital realm until DAC ...make sense? any views on this?
Hey Fergy, let me make a distinction. There is noise on the line and there is noise in the signal. Noise in the signal has no antidote. So a "crappy" recording with a bunch of noise that was recorded is dead in the water. It will always be crappy. a good system will just tell you exactly and precisely how crappy and what part of the spectrum that crap resides. So the truth is nobody can ever make music sound any better than the original recording . So what we truly are doing is trying to limit loss from the original recording. Playback of an original event by nature will always be less than the original. The more times its copied or rehashed and the more stuff it has to go through , the more lossy it gets. so the highest quality equipment preserves the signal at its input and gives you exactly that with no loss at the output. sometimes gear will add things. Sometimes those additional things sound very nice, like the harmonic distortion of a vacuum tube for instance. Sometimes gear will end up bumping certain frequencies like bass or highs are common. This frequency bumping is a telltale sign of cheap equipment as it tries to sound "Rich" by bumping lows. "Rich" is a marketing term for those that know absolutely zero about audio by the way. If you dont have a collection of clean recordings just pay for a Tidal or Quobuz membership and you can stream endless amounts of good sounding music.. the streamer is the cheap one, the DAC is the expensive one if you want to make priorities. Thanks for watching !
@@OCDHIFiGuy what I meant by crappy is 1970's recordings for example that were so compressed for radio that they lost a lot of range and dynamics....kind of like what Levinson was talking about that fixing the recording is the next frontier
@@bferguson001 yes, although compression can't be fixed. Mark is talking about EQ. It goes a very long way however, especially to get the sound to fit the room sonic. The better the DAC is the better old recordings get because it will extract the most out of the music. I did a vid the other day with the 21" open baffles and played a Lead Belly tune recorded in the 1940s to show how not crappy it sounded.
Great and well prepared video for ALL Mickey. Listen you MUST review or buy the Q Audio Concept 500 speakers. It will take your breath away. It sounds close to my own hand built panels. Pura vida
Hmmm. $6K ? Same price as my 11stereo floorstanders including shipping and I'll bet mine sound better... AND mine are made in USA. I assume the Q acoustics are British label made in China. Or they would be advertising made in Great Britain. And nowadays who wants to support China ? Not me. Chinese own CR dude... for making a port at Limon and highways ... now CRs ass belongs to the Red Star. It's a strategic position for them from a military standpoint. Sorry my brother!! TUANIS !!
Do you have a limit of music on a drive that a computer will not ba able to operate correctly? Like 2 10T disk drives of music ?
Here is something else for you Mike: Is there any difference between the fiber to Ethernet converter modules that some hifi companies may sell for over $300 and a TP Link unit which you can buy on Amazon for about $28? Of course you will want to put nice power supplies on both. So $300 vs $28. Sounds like another good video idea.
Rich,
To me fiber is no good unless the DAC receives it. So you're quiet a the way to the converter, then you put noise back on for the run to the streamer from converter ? No sir. Not me. I'm not buying it. It's the same as going wire to an audiophile switch then wire out. Does not matter how signal gets to the recocker/switch/converter as it comes out cleaned on wire where it's susceptible to RF. Unlike fiber. So for fiber to be meaningful the server would have to accept it at the least and transmit it to the DAC for 100% no BS integrity.
@@OCDHIFiGuy Hi Mike. Thanks for the reply. Ok. I understand that. It gives me something to think about.
I am currently looking at various streamers to get for my system. I am currently looking at the Hifi Rose RS150, the Innuous Statement, the Aurender N20, and the Antipodes K50 as possible options. I will be using it to feed an external DAC, the Kitsume KTE Holo May DAC. I currently use an M1 Mac Mini as my server/streamer source, and it’s pretty good as it’s totally silent and has a low noise floor for a stock off the shelf computer (as most PC’s are very noisy because they have non optimized power supplies and noisy components like GPUs inside that add noise to your stream.)
Antipodes is the best brand of what you named IMHO
@@OCDHIFiGuy If you have a better option I would love to hear it…provided it doesn’t cost as much as a new car. lol Also what are your thoughts on the new Apple lossless high res streaming for iTunes? I don’t know of any dedicated streamers that support Apple iTunes. Do you?
Ahh the $8,000 black box streamer you showed was an Antipodes wasn’t it? lol
What is the best software (that isnt Roon) to run on a PC based streamer? Preferably headless.
can i use any old mini pc and add a dac ? woul it have noise anyway ?
Hi Mike, I see you have an Allo Sparky board. Have you tried running it together with Allo USBridge board? The original one, not usbridge signature although that's worth looking into as well
I have original with Kali and battery, isolator. The whole stack. Also I just received USbridge sig player plus the new DAC and Power supply ill feature this weekend
@@OCDHIFiGuy looking forward to the new video
Where can I buy one of these?
A USB type-B output pcb, for a desktop PC?
I think the better products seperat the bus and channels that the different devices operate on. Most PCs have the USB on the same bus with one of the storage devices or PCI devices.
Yes, of course they do. It's what makes a regular computer a music server. It's optimized for audio playback. Separate USB and PCI bus is one of those details.
I only have 1 question for you there young Mikey: What is the meaning of life?
about network vs hard drive, i play the music from the ram, i have no problems, sounds great (the files are pulled from a hard drive, some on a ssd some on a hhd, no difference there). Greetings from Argentina, i dont agree with everything you say in your videos, but sometimes i learn something new.
Hello, I have family in Buenos Aires ..I'm pretty sure we all play from RAM regardless if it comes from local drive or internet, it all buffers in RAM, no ?
@@OCDHIFiGuy Great! i do not know that for sure, i'll investigate and get back at you (if i remember to do so...) but i remember getting a specific complement for foobar2000 to specifically load tracks to the RAM before starting playing, 500mb+ dsf files takes up a split second to start playing (i dont use them, i have a few because im curious, i use flac 20-30 mb per file average) I'm currently building something similar to you 4ch active analog crossover, thanks for the inspiration.
i wrote it wrong, what i mean is that in large files it takes up a few seconds (to load entire track, not just a buffered part of a track) to start playing where a normal size file starts right away, when i disable ramdisk complement, large files start right away too, i don't hear any difference, but it's free.
Mike, Great topic and video. As I mentioned in the comments of one of your prior videos, it took some time. But I finally came to the realization that my Innuos Zenith Mk3 was not giving me my money’s worth. So I sold it. I then experimented with an Intel NUC. But I sent it back to Amazon bc it had a fan and I wanted fanless because I wanted my server in my listening room. So I discovered the Azulle Inspire Mini PC. It is fanless and runs an i5. You load up your own RAM and M.2 SSD plus Roon ROCK and you are all set. I power it work a 50W LPS. I turned off Bluetooth and Wifi. I optimized the Bios to overdrive the i5. It is connected to my SOtM network switch etc. Bottom line, my SQ is definitely no worse and perhaps better with the Azulle and ROCK than the Innuos. The moral of the story in this hobby is that not everything is worth the money. Some things are and have substance and somethings are just hype and marketing. It takes a little while in the hobby before you catch on to that.
Fascinating.... I am in the market for a streamer/CDRipper and just auditioned the Innuous Zenith Mark3 and Statement. They sound amazing with an amazing price tag so I held off. Curious, what streaming service do you use with your home made network streamer, if any ? I really like Amazon Music HD hence ROON is not possible here. And I am having a tough time finding network streamers, CD Rippers, up to DSD256 players with native playback of Amazon Music HD, all in one box... Bluesound Vault2i (w/ an external DAC) is the closest but they do not handle DSD's.
@@ptg01 I use Roon which manages my Qobuz and Tidal subscriptions. I have my Core on my Azulle i5 Inspire Mini PC. I use Ethernet out with a nice cable to my SOTM sNH-10G switch which has an SOtM master clock attached. Out of the switch I am to an UpTone EtherRegen which then goes via Ethernet to a Sonore UltraRendu streamer. From there the UltraRendu outputs USB to an Innuos PhoenixUSB that I still have and haven’t decided to sell yet. USB out of the Phoenix goes to my DAC setup. I am very pleased with the sound. Roon runs snappier with the i5 then with the Zenith Mk3. The SQ is outstanding, though, yes I do have it surrounded by good equipment. But I built this Azulle Core for I think around $800 and it has replaced a $4500-5000 unit. This is money I can redeploy into gear that actually does make a difference like a tube integrated for instance.
@@RJ_Chicago No CD ripping ?
@@ptg01 Hi. Sorry I forgot to answer that. No I don’t rip CDs. I only stream. I have a lot of CDs. But I have a CD transport if I want to play them. My streamer is the Sonore UltraRendu on one system and a LUMIN U1 mini on another system.
@@RJ_Chicago Thanks. In my case, CD Ripping would be wonderful to get rid of my physical CD media once and for all.. PLUS, I really like Amazon Music HD (as I have about a dozen of Echo devices around the house for background music)... Hate to pay for another subscription service if I don't have to...To make sure I understand correctly, you have three different streaming devices ? Azulle Inspire Mini PC based, Sonore Ultra Rendu and Lumin U1 ? .
Very curious what you think about the Apple TVs. I’m kinda becoming a fanboy of them I just can’t help it!
If you told me in high school I’d be fanboying an Apple product I wouldn’t believe you!
I dont buy Apple and never did. The company stands on the side of the CCP
@@OCDHIFiGuy Interesting! I don’t blame ya for avoiding them good sir!
I want to clarify something that is always overlooked. That power supply jack on the Matrix USB card DOES NOT power the PCI board, it is ONLY to provide a good external 5V for the USB link between server/streamer and the DAC (for DACs that need that 5V link). The Matrix board is ALWAYS powered by the motherboard's 3.3V. This info is official from the Matrix company. Anyone who's brave enough can power the Matrix PCIe board with linear 3.3V on his own risk by hacking the link between the board and the PCIe slot.
Wow. Lame. That blows chunks. Good info. I'm unplugging that bastard today ..lol
I wish you could cover software options for us who 'roll our own' servers/streamers that dont use Roon
Euphony or Volumio
@@OCDHIFiGuy I had issues with Volumio in the past not working and being real flaky... even now one of my DACs doesnt work with it...
@@neccros007 that's a drag. Euphony then.
@@OCDHIFiGuy Wonder if someone will ever roll a open source Linux distro... If I knew more about Linux than I do, Id roll one!
Direct ethernet between server and streamer is better than usb, is it not?
Im not sure how you are using the word server. If you are talking about a regular computer server in the classic sense then yes, we may refer to the server part as the NAS Drive. But in this video the server or streamer are both the unit used for playback at the audio system, with server being more powerful and holding the library.
@@OCDHIFiGuy I mean server with the library one.
What’s the lowest cost Airplay streamer so that I can stream from my iOS devices in all rooms
Roku's ?
You got me my man, I'm not an Apple dude. Something about closed source that's not my deal.
With my cheap system my Node 2i works just fine for me, much like you state
Got no idea what that is , is it contagious ?
@@OCDHIFiGuy it is if you are a tight wad like me! 😁
I'd be all over the Vault2i (+ an external DAC) if it can play back DSD files....
I like the node. It beats the hell out messing around with a pi, it intergrates all your music well, easy to use and it doesn't cost 1000's of bucks.
@@backrack01 awesome ! So tell us what is your thing you spend thousands on ? This will be interesting to ask people. Cars, watches, golf, sports collectibles ??
I have a device that can stream video and music. It streams video via HDMI and streams audio via tosslink. It also plays any disc you give it. It will also rip any CD to the built in hard drive for storage. There is only one device that can do all these things and more. There is no other device for sale that can do this. This one plug in device I bought in 2007 is called a PS3.
That funny I still have my PS3 and it has a lot of music stored on it, aren't they only MP3s though? I can't remember as Its been a long time since I used it.
@@scottyo64 just so you know you can rip music in aac, atrac, and mp3 in a variety of kbps up to 320kbps.
all you have to do is put the cd in. goto music settings and select what format you want to use, then goto the cd --> triangle, import, then goto the folder you imported and -->triangle copy, choose your destination, such as a USB fob or your hard drive. Unfortunately they stopped the service of finding the album name and track list for you. So you have to manually type in the titles and the best thing is you can choose what kbps you want.. how cool is that.
So to compare, I streamed a song off spotify on its highest setting. I'm a paid subscriber, so I can download and set everything to the highest quality. Then I played the same song off the hard drive.
The CD ripped and played off the hard drive had a way cleaner sound than Spotify.
Cool, All I know that unit for is it can be hacked to rip SACD. same as DSD files off a SACD currently the only known way to rip SACD is PS3 Hacked.
I kept wanting to scroll up to see more of what you are showing... LOL
I* know my bad..sorry !
@@OCDHIFiGuy No worries!
Server + Streamer + DAC
vs
Server + StreamingDAC
Pros/Cons?
I always like the versatility of separates, especially DAC. DAC wont change but streamer will for sure. I would want to know that the streamer on my DAC was FPGA based so it could be updated with technology. Also, if someone is a purist putting a network device inside the DAC will make it a noisier DAC vs the same DAC without a network device inside. There may be an exception, Im not aware of it though. Personally I like a DAC to only have Volume control as far as extras, and only if its very well done. But im an audio snoot.
@@OCDHIFiGuy I acquired Antipodes CX in a very good deal. Now I am at a crossroad. I can go and buy Antipodes S30 (which can be upgraded with an external S60 hybrid power supply) and one of Denafripses. Or I can shoot for dCS Bartok in 8000s range used (but be prepared to wait a year as nobody is selling). Or PS Audio DirectStream w Bridge II that bunch sold for $3000, few including 1yr warranty (but it is 5yr old design already).
@@Burevestnik9M730 No on PS Audio. Don't do it. Bartok better than Denafrips for sure. Better to keep CX and spend all the money on DAC. How much total will you spend ? Let's see if I have a solution
I'm here because I think I can build a music server with an old 1tb dvr drive. I have an maudio pci card for breakout to rca. I would like bluetooth control from my phone.
IMP. Ain’t nothing gonna be better than an Apple TV device running their max file format.
Your DAC will matter slightly with that but me should be good with most anything!
In my opinion the best output card is not Jcat, it’s Pink faun. Much more musical. You also need a very good linear power supply
Well surprise surprise surprise, I've got a Pink Faun as well. We can compare.
@@OCDHIFiGuy I compared Jcat Femto, Jcat Xe and Pink Faun powered by Uptone JS2 in a high power AMD Ryzen 16 core audio PC powered by 2 linear power supplies (one for CPU, one for MB). Let me know what you find! Really excited if you post video. You also have 2 clock upgrades for the pink faun: OCXO and Ultra OCXO. High power is the Taiko route which I highly recommend for a big, full and dynamic sound. But that’s another story.
my Oppo 103 can stream lossless from the internet and also server flac files from my NAS. hard to till the difference. you do not need to spend more than $600. rest is pure hype
Not hard to tell the difference here. Oppo is out of business so zero support ... $600 is a cheap thing ...Ill show something for 700 that includes outboard power supply and Seperate DAC and Streamer
That's nothing ! Now they are selling us internet switches and all the PSU which go with. Expensier than an expensive dac. There is no limit to madness. That starts at 400$ to 15'000$.
I sell the Fidelizer audiophile switch for $395 and it works great.
15:49 8k for that?
Yeah man its common. Computer guys came flocking to HiFi when they realized how much they could sell a simple computer for .. I actually was a dealer for that DAC and sold like 20 of them then I decided to take a closer look with a critical eye which I had never done, I just believed the story , well I cloned the thing for $1200 and thats my homebuild... cloned from New Egg and I made mine sound better by using outboard LPSU, etc ... Nuts and Im trying to tell people dont waste your money ..
Getting different sounds from onboard USB vs USB on sound card is total freaking lunacy. Digital is digital no matter if it comes from a PC or a potato. Digital either works or it doesn't. There is no noise in digital data. You could easily test this by transferring a file over each port and then run a checksum on both and they would match identical. There is no difference other than your insanity.
You blab your mouth like a fart... Ever heard of correlated jitter, Genius ? Nope because you think digital is "Ones and zeroes" you dont even consider for a second those ones and zeroes have a spec and tolerance ? LOL> sheesh... You are the insane one...
Come on OCD Guy, I am a fan, but this is wrong. Of course anyone can make a pc for music. But what about customized BIOS (yes how the processor cores and the memory is set can affect sound), customized OS, Linear Power Supply, better implemented ports, better crystals and capacitors, app for remote management, electromagnetic shielding, vibration treatment, low noise SDD operation through customization (to reduce noise), etc. It all counts, and whoever takes the difficult job to customize all of these tweaks is entitled to sell their product at a price they consider fair. If anyone wants a DIY or to use a simple NUC with ROCK, of course they can do it, it will work, but will hardly achieve the levels of refinement of a well developed music server.
Great video, it is really a ridiculous idea to spend money on that. First of all why put a server in your listening room ?? put it in the basement and run a cat6 cable or use wifi on your streamer. There will be no difference whatsoever when it's located far away from the streamer.
this guy burning this money to get simple services, people and devlopers try to avoid online services and make simple come server which any old 100$ can do, this guy buy 300$ usb pci hahaha , you can hide it the roof to avoid noise better than make it fanless , you can't cooling all motherboard's caps without air flow, at least get low rpm fans
The fidelizer nikola2 lps is amazing for these computer based severs