What went wrong during this take off?
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- čas přidán 15. 06. 2024
- See what went wrong with this take off. Your latest Decision Making Debrief.
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"I learnt about flying from that".
Another good honest report Jon. We should never be too embarrassed in educating others about out mistakes it could save a life.
I had a similar experience shortly after buying my PA32 Saratoga. I flew across to Sywell, a familiar haunt, on arrival the runway in use was their shortest, Rwy23 grass just 603m. It's always 21R hard. However, i repositioned for it and landed without incident and plenty to spare.
I stopped for a cuppa, fuelled her up to the gunwales and proceeded to Rwy 23 grass. didnt' think much about performance apart from i have lots and it's 600m...tons ...surely? I was given the option for 21R hard but i was lined up now so i'll go with 23. So short softfield take off, i remeber doing that ONCE! Flaps 25, full power, brakes off, back on the yoke, rotate at 75IAS. My goodness that hedge at the end of the runway came up pretty quick. Gear up, cleared the obstacle just, accellerate, flaps up and away we go. Phew that felt a little too close for comfort.
On my return that evening i sat down with the POH. Apart from not calculating anything i had worked on rotate at 75, it should have been 70...bugger! I remeber that last five knots taking forever, at least 100m of that short ish runway, and on grass.
Lesson learn't! know your aeroplane, learn the numbers and do the calculations. The Swiss Cheese didn't get me that day...thank goodness! I'm just about to embark on my MEP rating where the numbers literally are life or death.
A great lesson to share, Jon. Thanks also for your honest self-criticism on what happened 👌🏻👏🏻👏🏻
Aircraft performance is an interesting subject, at one time under the U.K. CAA every three years an airtest to a published schedule was required. Part of this test was a five minute climb, this part of the test found out the aircraft with performance issues, the list of problems I found is far too long for this thread but usually revolved around engine power output or inaccurate weight schedules. I was once told by the late Mike Tate ( who ran an engine overhaul business ) that he would regularly see in the test cell a new 200HP engine make 205HP and he held the opinion that at 200-400 hours a 200 HP engine would make 210-215 HP. In contrast he once put a 2400 hour 200 hp engine ( TBO+20%) in the test cell and got 180 Hp out of it. Back when the U.K. became part of EASA the requirement for three yearly test flights disappeared and I have absolutely no doubt that this has increased the number of aircraft flying around with performance issues that no one knows about.
I often remind my students that a, for example, 5 knot tailwind equates to a difference in relative airspeed of 10 knots if you were to just drive to the other end! We are extremely cautious about taking off with tailwinds in gliders, and will often go to the hassle of changing ends in even a slight breeze (it's much more faff than just taxiing to the other end lol). When we practice winch launch failures, a tailwind can make the recovery extremely exciting! The only advantage of taking off with a tailwind is that it makes the reciprocal landing in the event of a launch failure a piece of cake (only advisable in a glider, though!)
Well John,
I had a scare last week flying back from Durango, Colorado. The altitude there is 7,000 feet above sea level, but the day I took off, it was reporting a density altitude of 12,000 feet. It’s a very long runway, but I had fully refueled the plane with 70 gallons of fuel and, luckily, I was by myself. I struggled to lift off, and when I finally got airborne, the performance was definitely less than half of what it usually is at sea level.
A great example of humility and willingness to learn and improve 👏🏾👏🏾👏🏾 I had a bit of a moment recently, taking off from Sandown. I assured the passengers but boy was I shaken up. One of the benefits of filming flights is being able to do debriefs like these. Thank you for sharing!
Your analysis strongly suggests you have all the knowledge. I make (small, checklist related) mistakes often so i cannot judge. How do we intercept these potentially dangerous errors?
I find having PAX on board to be a challenge. Somehow it changes my process negatively. I feel rushed. Not by them but by me.
Another possibility is that it was more than 5kt tail wind. A tail wind makes it feel much shallower because you're eating much more ground distance than usual which means the trees are really close by as you reach the airfield boundary. Usually it's the other way around. And yes, as you climb you pick up more tail wind and the aircraft's inertia works against you, meaning you find yourself having to reduce the climb with any gust. Whilst it's unsettling it may not be as marginal as you thought, you just reduced your climb and kept an eye on your airspeed. That's exactly what you should do. I accepted about 5kt tail wind out of Wellesbourne... never again.
wow, amazing
Excellent video! Love the ability to proactively review what could have been done better. We never stop learning. I wonder if density altitude compounded the situation?
Hi Jon, you just flew right over me in MIV
I would say the main error here was the last minute change in the type of take off you were doing. You hadn't done a proper departure briefing for a short-field take off. You hadn't reviewed the POH for such a take off. You just decided on a whim to use some flaps. Doing a short-field take off from that runway may or may not have been a good decision, but the decision should have been made before you started the engine.
You mean exactly as he said……..
@@classicraceruk1337 He didn't say that at all. Nowhere in his list of lessons learned does he say anything about not changing the plan at the last second.
@@thomasdalton1508 Re watch it, he used two stages of flap at the last minute for a start. He also retracted them on the climb out. All last minute decisions.
@@classicraceruk1337 Yes, which I'm saying was his biggest mistake. A point he neglected in his conclusion. I'm really not sure what you are disagreeing with...
Enjoy your aircraft while you still can and squeeze every hour of pleasure out of it! Sadly, in the risk adverse world we now live in, I can see a time when older general aircraft will be banned and historic aircraft will be grounded. Of course in the case of your aircraft, you documented how a few years on from this, you found out that it needed a major engine overhaul. It’s like a cars performance - on paper you may think you’ve got x number of horses under the bonnet, but mechanical parts age and wear out. Probably in truth, the reality is that the biggest risk is flying around in old aircraft, with all the engine and airframe hours! It’s like the rules on MOT exemption for classic cars. How many would pass a modern MOT test with all the advisories nowadays? But you cannot blame the owners as it’s human nature to take advantage of an exemption in a society where we now have ULEZ and 15 minute towns and cities enforced upon us. Enjoy your freedom while we still can, as it’s only a matter of time before the Green lobby come after GA. We’re seeing it already with the airfields themselves now going to greedy developers with Local Authority backing. I had the best years in the 80s and 90s. Thruxton Airport has now changed hands so it remains to be seen what happens next! Not much plane spotting to be had there, Old Sarum or even Compton Abbas these days as new owners make changes which is their privilege of course, but they also want to see a return on their investment. It’s crazy how places I took for granted are changing and the pace of change across the GA and automotive worlds.
I used one of my 9 lives up on a Tiger Moth experience at Compton Abbas. Took 20 mins of playing with the mags and spinning the prop before the engine started! I then had an enjoyable flight around Blandford Forum. A week later, a guy my age and the pilot both tragically killed after it crashed on take-off. These are the truly sobering occurrences that cause you to reflect, and thank our lucky stars!
This was my second lucky escape after experiencing aerobatics at Thruxton in the school’s T67B Slingsby Firefly with a lovely instructor. Jean Herridge phoned me in the evening to inform me that both he and his student pilot had been killed over Oxfordshire that afternoon performing spin awareness exercises when the aircraft failed to recover. Probably just wrote myself out of ever having a ride with you Jon! Ha ha. Anyway, happy landings and keep enjoying what you do while you can!
Seems you did pretty well Jon with your flight planning just some minor methodological errors which we all can make. Was density altitude an issue? All were lightly dressed, so I’m guessing this was summer.
Ahem…now the outcome might have been different in the USA as you would probably be loading up two orca-sized passengers.😂😂😂
There does seem to be a dilemma with the short field technique. With 25% flaps you have a shorter take-off roll and leave the ground at a lower speed, but at the price of having poorer climb performance - that's going to be especially problematic at MTOW. If there simply is not enough runway length for a normal take-off, then you've got no choice - but when you do have the choice, having the best possible climb performance is very desirable. It's not always a simple choice, each case needs to be evaluated depending on the situation presenting.
Almost everything wrong. But no crash, so not "everything". Glad ya got to fly another day....
yeah I'm not a believer in flaps at take off and barely during landing. It's an airbrake and you have ground effect
I notice you have your iPad with EFB mounted on the right hand yoke…do you find this safer, better for control and still easy to read? I’ve got my iPad on my left hand yoke ( on a Foxbat, so it’s tight) and it takes up a lot of room , but am pondering if it’s the safest thing to do
Buy an iPad mini ?