DANGEROUS DECISION - This is NO place for a NON-INSTRUMENT PRIVATE PILOT to be!
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- čas přidán 9. 02. 2022
- It's getting dark and I'm stuck above the clouds.
I got this wrong and I'm posting this video to hopefully highlight the dangers of flying above cloud or VFR on top for a non-instrument pilot, especially when under time constraints. . This video is not instructional and I am NOT an instructor. I have learnt a valuable lesson from this mistake and I will think twice before doing this again.
This video depicts a situation that was neither safe nor wise and possibly in breach of VFR rules. I have thought long and hard about whether I should post it on my channel or not, but in the spirit of safety and disclosing my mistakes so that others may learn and hopefully not do the same I have decided it is worth it.
VFR to the MAX video as mentioned: • Pushing VFR TO THE MAX...
For your information I have a UK issued PPL along with an IR(R) rating as well as a night rating. I am an experienced instrument pilot but I am not an instructor and none of my videos should be used for instruction. The little Pipersport I currently fly is certified for Daytime VFR flight only and whilst flying it I am required to always maintain visual flight rules.
My name is Terry Kent and I am a General Aviation PPL private pilot operating out of North Weald EGSX about 12 miles to the north east of London in the UK. Short Field is my channel focused on the lighter side of General Aviation including flight and airfield reviews, equipment unboxing and review plus all things private pilot related. I use various cameras to record my videos including GoPro and Insta 360 and stills and edit them in Adobe Premiere Pro, I am an animator as well and often use animations to describe situations more clearly I use Blender and Adobe After Effects for these. I always attempt to post my videos in the highest possible quality, normally 4k.
I fly a 2011 Pipersport two seat single engine aircraft that is also known as the PS28 or SportCruiser in the USA (America) it is know under the FAA as an LSA or Light Sport Aircraft and can be flown on a very basic license. In the UK it is a Part 21 airplane which requires a full licence but it's generally cheap to run, affordable maintenance and great value for money. It cruises at 100 to 105 knots and has superb short take off and landing or STOL capabilities. I visit farm strips, back country and short airfields, some of them dangerous and I try not to crash :-), as well as international airports and try to learn something new every time I fly.
I fly VFR and IFR as well as visual and instrument approaches.
My videos may give helpful information to pilots but please remember these are just for entertainment, I am not an instructor nor should anything shown in my videos be used for real world aviation, also the airfields I visit may have totally changed or even closed since the making of the video so always consult the latest information for your country.
If you enjoyed this video, please give it a ‘thumbs up’ and leave me a comment in the box below, I love to read them and I also like to hear what you like or dislike about my video. Please share it with anyone you think would be interested and I'd so love it if you ticked SUBSCRIBE and DING THE NOTIFICATION BELL to be informed by CZcams when I upload my next video. Thank you so much.
If you are interested, my video content is available to purchase as stock footage, please contact me via my email address in the ABOUT section of my channel for more information.
If you like my content you could buy me a coffee but no worries if you don't want too, I'm just chuffed that you are even interested in my videos, and if you ever see me at any airfields please come over and say 'Hi' and I'll probably buy you a coffee.
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I love the idea of a british person climbing through clouds just to see the sun
Ironic isn’t it 😂😂😂
Made me think of the end of The Matrix Revolutions actually...
LOLOL
@@mikes6216liking your own comment is though mate! 😂
we have to. we get sad
In 1984 in California in a Cessna 152, I greatly exceeded my abilities and made some poor, rookie decisions. I had about 88 hours total experience, about 35 hours since the private license, and took my friend on a Sunday afternoon round trip flight from Hayward (HWD--southern part of San Francisco Bay) southeast to San Luis Obispo (SBP) in central California, in very late October (short days). We made it fine to San Luis, but lingered too long on the ground at an Oktoberfest event (I did not drink any alcohol). By the time we were at the airport for the return journey it was clearly too late in the afternoon for my experience level. The sun was lowering and it became starkly clear I would be flying at night on the final portion. I was not current at night and had only several hours total of night experience, and that with an instructor, in Miami, Florida, 5 years previous (had a several year gap of non-flying from getting the license in Florida to taking it up again in California). Soon, things deteriorated further; it was clear from ATIS that my home airport was socked in with coastal fog. I didn't let my passenger know how concerned I was. He wasn't at all aware of my gathering fright and I kept it successfully to myself. And, he had that classic and potentially deadly get-there-itis, had to be at work the next morning in San Francisco. I thought about diversion airports, but with that low level of experience, any significant changes to plan were daunting. Was thinking about flying northeast over a maybe 2,000 foot mountain ridge to inland Livermore (ATIS said clear sky), away from fog. That didn't sound inviting, flying over the dark ridge. I noted on the sectional Reid Hillview Airport, in San Jose, with its less than 3,000 foot runway. That was the decision. I had never landed there before, and it is tucked into a very densely built up area. Luckily there was no traffic, no fog, and we came in over a shopping center in the dark. And as it turned out, the landing light was non-functioning in this rented aircraft. We dropped in like a ton of bricks. We survived. Left the airplane there and we took trains and a taxi back to the departure airport and our car; quite the hassle---hours, getting home in the wee hours. The next morning had to take trains and buses about 50 miles back to pick up the airplane so as to return it to the departure airport where the flight school needed it. To this day I have never had the courage to tell my friend how frightened and over my head I was, and what kind of danger we were in. I did fly some hours after that but flying even back then became prohibitively expensive and I stopped at 94.5 hours in the log book, and that was it. Lesson: don't push the daylight, and don't push your abilities, and certainly don't take friends up with you until you're fully ready and confident. I have had a recurring DREAM, for years, being non-current, getting ready to fly late in the afternoon, taking up unsuspecting friends. Your on-top, winter season/late afternoon video brought back these memories. Perhaps by telling this true tale, someone will not make the stupid mistakes I made that day.
Woah, what a story. Thanks for sharing Jon.
I've made that trip. And diverted to Livermore on more than one occasion. At least the gas was cheaper there!
They say the most dangerous time for new pilots is when they have 200 to 300 hours. They get cocky and think they can do it all. I have 3700 hours and stopped flying in the 80’s. Out of that 3700 around maybe 60 were single engine. I had bought a King Air for my last plane.
Great story and lesson for new pilots! Thank you for sharing with us!
As pilots we all make mistakes, particularly when inexperienced. The most important thing is to learn from them and from those of others. The one thing I have learned is that flying is a binary decision. Is it safe yes or no? If no there is no pressure, you just have to wait till things improve, don’t ever let anything else influence you.
I am a beginner student pilot. Sharing your “poor judgment calls“ and how you resolved them is priceless to me. Thank you so much for sharing your experiences as I feel they give me a lot to think about as I begin my journey to the skies. Safe flying!
Taking off is optional. Getting back down is mandatory! Thanks for the lesson.
:-) I need to tell myself this sometimes. Thanks Val
So mandatory that if you don’t comply on your will, you’ll be forced with the graveness of gravity... 😬
Its amazing how quickly things can change and how a slight change in atmospherics can have such a drastic change on the situation. Nicely put together, as always.
Thanks Giles and so right.
An instrument rating is probably one of the best things you can do to improve the safety of your flying. It gives you SO many more options.
Thank you Scotty I have one but the aircraft is VFR only.
@Pero Djuric
the aircraft is VFR only
Not true. Having an instrument rating does not make you any safer than a VFR pilot with the same amount of flying experience. In some ways its more dangerous because some may think having that rating lets them fly into IMC when they should not...the weather doesn't care if you have an instrument rating, it will close in on you the same way as any other pilot.
@@speedomars3869 What kind of idiotic statement is that? Having an instrument rating means when you are VFR, facing IMC, you can file IFR at that point, enter the system, and continue on, rather than attempting VFR into IMC. THAT is the "more options" I am talking about.
@@ScottsSynthStuff You missed the point. Twenty-five percent of all aviation accidents are due to weather. A fraction of those are VFR pilot inadvertently flying into IMC. Having an instrument rating is a good thing, but is not a magic shield. There are VFR pilots that have flown into and out of IMC and lived to tell about it, it is not an automatic death sentence. So a statement like, it is safer to have an instrument rating is nonsense. Safety is an attitude. If an instrument rated pilot challenges weather because they think they are invincible, then they are not being safe and will pay the price the same as anyone. In fact, VFR pilots never challenge weather by definition...they KNOW they lack the skill to fly without reference to the horizon so they don't do it - on purpose.
I love the fact that you decided to share your story. Because of pilots like you aviation will get saver, mistakes are our greatest learning tool and you sharing yours is fantastic. Great job and thank you.
So appreciate this comment Timothy thank you Sir
Good lessons. I was interested to hear that you were in contact with ATC for traffic and terrain info. No matter how embarrassed you may be about the situation you've put yourself in, IT'S OK TO ASK FOR HELP. ATC is there to support your safety, if you need it, use it.
Exactly. Pilot, then communicate. No law against asking for help. Likewise, all pilots will misjudge weather. Heck, who can predict the weather. So, if anything, I'd be proud that I did take the action to ask for assistance and didn't try to the be the guy who 'wings' it. :) That would be dangerous. This was just beautiful, and no need to stress. I would have enjoyed it as long as possible. I miss the clouds. :( Just makes me sad to see how beautiful it was up there and be away from flying for so long.
I was there myself, building solo hours pre- PPL. I took off one evening and within 10 mins found I'd lost sight of the surface. I called the tower (EGHH), explained the situation and asked for a QDM back to the field. The controller gave me an SRA, during which the anxiety in his voice was palpable. I was calm, right up until the time I landed, parked up and got out. I nearly collapsed with exhaustion. That was back in '74, but you don't forget something like that.
I think that's one problem we all have and it is the reason you have to do all those dam circles of your local field painstakingly picking out all the little features that stick out like dogs balls 10yrs later. It does sound like your controller was a bit new at the job. Mine might of said something like "You were dumb enough to get yourself up there. When you get back down see the senior instructor." They would watch you and some kind soul might put on the tower strobe light.
A friend of mine years ago was flying in a remote area and the clouds formed up hard with a sudden storm. He'd had no IFR training. Once he realized how bad of a pickle he was in, he put out an emergency call. A very calm TWA captain who was a few miles away talked him through the descent through the cloud cover, and then the ATC controller gave him vectors through the storm until he got close enough to home. The very next weekend he signed up for instrument training!
Before I was instrument rated, I tried to do VFR on top twice, but I got uncomfortable and figured it was a bad idea and turned around and went back through the same hole.
Really informative video, and another quality production. I think it just shows how quickly the situation can change, especially when your having so much fun, plus it’s easy to get carried away with views like that. Thanks for sharing.
Cheers Dave, as a fellow VFR to the MAX man you know all this stuff 🙂
This would have to be top of the list for unintentional situations pilot intentionally lead themselves into. I’ve done it.
I tuned into a local VOR/DME, centred the CDI onto a radial, drew a corresponding line on my map, found the ground level plus 300 feet set the altitude alert, brought up the flight director, set 500 FPM descent, pitot heat ON, carb heat ON, came out of the cloud prior to my pre-selected altitude, took a breath.
It was a quite flight home.
Brilliant comment, I agree it's like sticking your finger on a candle and then wondering why it burnt you :-) Good advice thanks Patrick.
I'm not a pilot (wish I could) but I stumbled across this video and cheers mate. That was pretty cool of you to share that experience. In a world where people blame everyone and everything for their mistakes it was great to see you use that and turn it around as a lesson for others.. Happy flying mate
Welcome aboard and thank you so much 👍👍👍
I am glad you posted this video. I only just passed my PPL and I get a good deal of benefit from watching videos where things didn't go without drama. This includes my own videos - I learn areas to improve upon when I watch them back.
What a great video, just subscribed. Always appreciate anyone able to publicly acknowledge a mistake and allow others to benefit from the lessons learnt, we all make mistakes but not everyone is so comfortable talking about them.
Thank you so much Matthew, I hope I get to keep your sub. Really appreciated buddy thank you again. Terry
Don’t be too hard on yourself. It appears you have plenty of experience and in an emergency situation you could’ve done a IFR Descent in altitude to get you under the scud again . I started flying when I was 15, private pilots license when I was 16, commercial license when I was 18, and then that same year I did the IFR and multi engine jet course as well. I flew up time all over Canada mainly on wheels. My first job was flying from Vancouver to Qualicum Beach On Vancouver Island. Ironically, where I live half the year now. When I graduated from multi engine turbo props to a jet position my first was a 737 200. One day flying from Edmonton to Winnipeg, it was -20 Celsius, I knew I had to deice. I checked the weight and balance, had the first officer do the walk around, took on fuel for the flight, and the alternate, and another 30 mins . Plane was deiced, but it was snowing hard and disability was only 500 feet horizontal. I knew I had to get going quick or I wouldn’t get out of the airport. Ground transferred me to Tower and I was cleared to position and hold. Everything looked good. Clearance given for takeoff with a straight out departure to 8000 feet. On the roll something just felt odd. I didn’t hear the same sound that I normally would. Nothing to abort the takeoff as everything was green, but the noise was wrong. I continued with the takeoff. As soon as I rotated, the first officer said trim forward. Nose felt extremely light and I had to apply forward pressure immediately to keep my airspeed at V-1. . Essentially, I missed an item on the weight and balance report. The plane was loaded improperly. I had 2000 pounds or more of farming equipment into pods at the extreme rear of the aircraft. They should’ve been in the middle. It put me tail heavy by a long shot. Thankfully I was able to control the pitch and thought about continuing with the flight as the weather was much better in Winnipeg. The plane was more or less stable so I continued on to Winnipeg. I probably aged four years in that three hour flight. It was my error not to check where the pods placed . I assumed load Tech would’ve done the math as they usually do. I learned a good lesson. Never assume flight operations, the low tech, the jet fuel guys, are going to do your job. Your job is your job. Double check theirs. That was about 10,000 hours ago. I have had the good fortune I’m flying those hours in complete safety. Commercial aircraft have just gotten easier and easier to fly. For all you young pilots out there, take it off auto pilot frequently and fly legs by hand and feet. The training will help you immensely in a tough time. You get to be one with your aircraft. Not just simply monitoring systems.God bless and level wings.
I'd love to fly in Northern Canada although it has it's own challenges as you point out. Great if scary story, thank you.
agree . . . improving decision making is always enhanced when the decision is challenging. This event turned out fine and many of others can learn from the decision and his humble approach about 'judgment', for this I say thank you sir!
Not a Pilot here, So what happens in this situation, where you are above the clouds, weather conditions change and you need to get back below the cloud layer. And you cannot find a hole in the clouds. What do you do in that situation? I am just trying to understand.
@@conan58del it depends on the situation and your fuel load. If you if you feel like the clouds will break can you have a lot of fuel, you can ride it out up top visually. If you don't have the fuel or conditions are worsening, you have to depend on your instrument skills. This is why I think instrument skills should be taught in private pilot level more than it is. Sometimes you get trapped in darkness or in clouds despite your cautious nature. Having a IFR - instrument endorsement is the best, but feeling that a good instructor that puts you on instruments and you practice it occasionally as a private pilot. The thing is you just have to set things up as a control decent , keep calm, keep your wings level and do your scans, maybe even notify ATC that you are trapped above with a VFR license . Sometimes they can find holes for you from pilot reports some reason traffic, that you cant see . Ask for flight following from ATC . Hopefully the bottom of the clouds are much above the terrain :-) . Good question .
@@javar888 Thank you for the response I really appreciate it. So as I understand it, depending on what is going on, Fuel/Time/Conditions... etc. Even though you are only VFR in this case. Rely on all of your recourses like ATC, other pilots, and weather instruments. But if conditions are staying the same, and or getting worse. If you have to put the plane on the ground, you notify ATC, tell them what is going on and you do what you have to do. Would that be correct?
Great video, i think you made the right decision to post. It was a brave & selfless act. "To make no mistakes is not in the power of man; but from their errors and mistakes the wise and good learn wisdom for the future."
This is a great video. Very open and honest and doesn't pull any punches. The instructors should get their students to watch this.
I think if more people would share their mistakes it would show how often things go wrong quickly and then they would be more aware of what's happening to them! Great job keeping your cool and thanks for sharing your mistake!
So true, I know I make mistakes that I never even know I've made and never will. Until we all become machines humans will always be unreliable. Fantastic comment.
Hi. Probably one of your best videos, thanks for sharing! I can see that you fully managed the situation and executed your recovery plan really well. Speaking to Southend Radar was perfect, plus having your IR (R) in your back pocket gives that confidence. But this is a good learning exercise for less experienced pilots.
Cheers Vince, it wasn't that bad but just shows how such a thin layer of cloud can change everything.
This happend to me and my very experienced instructor many years ago over north wales, the silence between us as we both where scanning the clouds looking for a hole when he suddenly said THERE !, I HAVE CONTROL and put the aircraft into a spiral decent. We were only a few hundred feet from the ground when we poked through and we were getting tossed about, we landed in a farmers field and sat it out while the weather front passed. It was one of my more memorable lessons.
At least I was over flat terrain, that's a story Col. Thanks for the great comment
As a new pilot, these videos are gold. Thanks for sharing.
Loved the narrative - honest and straight. I felt like I was flying with you. Glad you got a glimpse of the sun and got back safe.
Thank you so much.
climbed through overcast and got stuck....no holes and under time pressure to meet friend at destination airport....took a giant risk..using my gps over the location airport, descended through thick cloud with unknown base....wings level, low power, no turn, broke out at 1000ft agl...found airport and landed....pucker factor...high.
Scary story and so glad it worked out. Thanks for the watch and educational comment Sir.
That reminds me of a lesson I learned as an inexperienced pilot just after gaining my license. I went flying one evening after work, it was the most beautiful evening and I was really enjoying the flight at around 3000ft. I was watching the sun getting lower and the lights of the towns and villages coming on, it was amazing and I didn't want to go back to the airfield. It was only when I finally started my decent to the circuit that I realised the sun had already set at ground level and I could hardly make out the airfield. I was thinking I would have to ask for a couple of cars to be parked at the end of the runway with their headlights on so I could see the way but as it turned out I made it with just enough light left. When I walked into the clubhouse my former instructor said sarcastically "I didn't know you had a night rating Ian" .... lesson learned 🙄
I've taken off twice with a paraglider from a mountain in non VFR conditions, not able to see the ground or landing before descending through the layer. not very thick but enough to cause me worries. This video reminded me of those mistakes. thanks!
Thank you for sharing this experience. I think many pilots been in similar situations but wouldn’t talk about it. Good lesson for all of us.
Clearly, the key variable here, as always, is the TIME.
First to comment on that, yes that was the pressure point. Cheers Johnny
@@ShortField you could have not made it
Thanks Terry, good learning points. If having just popped up through a hole you can always do a 180 turn and go back to that if there's nothing ahead - that was the story of my first ever flight! Further on, gaining height definitely gives a better perspective to look for the holes in the cloud, as you say. Definitely better to play it safe! Thanks for the vid and the learning points.
Cheers Mike, I keep thinking oh well I can just go IMC but the Pipersport is not allowed so I'm always trying to keep within the rules and sometimes I go the wrong side of the wire.
Despite the beauty of that video flying over the sunny clouds, Such an awkward situation to find a hole. I’m working on my PPL so every pieces of pilot experiences are valuable. Thanks for your honesty and sharing your knowledge. Flying makes us humble. Greeting from windy NZWN New Zealand
Thanks for another great video. I'm currently doing the IR(R) and can't wait to get above the clouds! Such a rewarding rating. I'm appreciative that you share your mistakes so that others can learn. Keep safe.
Cheers Chris.
Hi Terry, really appreciate you sharing this video (Top notch production too). We are all continually learning and reviewing our performance in the sky, we inherently all want to be safer and learning from each others experiences is a great way to make us better/safer. Lee
Cheers Lee. I think pushing your yourself is OK and a great way to expand your abilities but there is a limit. Love your support, thanks again buddy.
Good lesson, thanks for sharing! I've been VFR on top before and always managed to find a hole to punch through or passed a front with clear weather on the other side. But when you get up there, it's not always obvious that you'll be able to find a way to get below the clouds again. So that's something that should be considered in advance.
Great video Terry and very informative. Really liked the external under-wing camera views you used in this video too, that's a great perspective for the take-off.
Cheers Sean, I started using a 360 cam, what it gives with versatile footage is marred by not that great quality but it's useful as a 'catch all' cam.
This was a fantastic video! Great job and thank you! Your experiences are very valuable to aviators like myself.
Jeff you are awesome, thank you for this wonderful comment.
Thank you for an honest and thorough explanation. I don't fly any more (just a few hours in gliders years ago) but I do scuba dive and the same safety lessons apply there. What seems like a small risk can easily turn into a disaster. Know your limits and that of your equipment. Be conservative. Be safe.
Glad you got down ok.
So kind thank you.
You felt confident the whole time.
A. Because, as you said, you could mostly see the ground the whole time (even though the video may not look like it)
B. You have your instrument & night ratings (even if your bird isn't rated for them)
But for a new pilot or unrated pilot this could quickly become a nightmare.
Thanks for sharing your error so that all my learn.
I did 'over-egg' the danger in this video but I did say it was never really unsafe. Felt it was worth showing for those tempted to pop-upstairs without training just what you might be faced with. Great comment.
Thank you for posting. This clearly shows the difficulties you can experience when flying VFR on top. You have the benefit of being IFR rated, and if needed, you could have requested IFR clearance to descend below the clouds, and filed a report afterwards.
Beautiful description of our Privilege ...and then the Chain and your breaking of it. Thanks...so artfully done
I did the same thing while vfr flying in East Texas. The clouds became thick and closed in. I had to use instruments to lose altitude and I was scared to death. I remembered what my dad (WWII pilot) told me; rely on the instruments and not how it feels. Made it ok, but I never let that happen again.
I was flying back from my first big trip when I realized over Louisiana the weather had not held up to the forecast. I asked ATC for the nearest VFR airport, and he quickly gave me a vector. Most ATC folks are really awesome.
It took me 25 minutes to find a non legal, but plenty adequate hole. I had plenty of fuel. Since I was on following with ATC I wasn’t worried about IFR traffic. I spent two nights in some little town waiting for legal weather.
Once I got my IFR rating I realized how little of it was spent learning the skills needed to make a safe descent through a high ceiling. There really, really needs to be an intermediate IFR certification that gives training and privileges to fly in clouds well away from terrain while using flight following or IFR plan. It would prevent a lot of emergencies, make safer pilots, and help people use certified light aircraft for travel as they were intended to be. Learning and staying current on approaches ought to be something separate.
That is a good idea, but the US government is the one making the decision, unfortunately.@@nunyabidness3075
Just do what Dad (a flight test engineer) said the Convair chief test pilot did once in a 880 airliner on the way home (not sure why they were flying VFR except it was the 1950s and maybe the field didn't have the right facilities for a full instrument approach): Just tell the tower: *"I see a hole in the clouds. Keep us on RADAR while we descend."* (Do make sure you're over an area where there are no significant hills. This was San Diego and descending in the wrong place could go badly.)
Your dad sounds awesome. Thank you.
Thanks for the video. At least, you kept your wits about you, and communicated with ground controllers. You also had the moving map, so that was a major help. Glad everything worked out.
Thank you Thomas most appreciated.
Nice one Terry - We all make mistakes, but not everybody owns up to them, so good to see your mistake highlighted so we can all learn from it - Hope your well ........
Thank you Chris. I need to remember the limitations of the Pipersport. Too kind buddy thanks again.
Great video man. Pilots can't just cross their fingers hoping everything will go smoothly, it's down on them! Thanks for sharing your story, it's always nice to learn from others and my own mistakes!
So appreciate that Kalle thanks buddy.
My dad told me a story about him getting into this situation back in the '50s in Kansas City with his 1947 Taylorcraft. He didn't have an artificial horizon indicator just a turn and bank which would be worthless attempting to descend through. He said he put his plane into a spin and held it there until he came out under the clouds and could see the ground. He said he knew a spin would not allow the plane to accelerate past the structural limits of the plane. Thanks for sharing your video!
You have a beautiful life Sir. I often dream of selling everything, retiring, and moving to a less expensive land with a runway, and my very own plane. :) I salute you Sir.
This reminded me of US Army helicopter flight school in 1968 when the heliport tower erroneously cleared us novice peter-pilots" to take off, we had absolutely no instrument training at that time, and we almost immediately went into a cloud layer and popped out in between two cloud layers a like flying in a huge room horizontally but with minimum height with a cloud floor and a cloud ceiling it was fun seeing other helicopter popping up into the room. I was flying with another student who was from Hawaii. Not knowing what to do, I remember while keeping an eye on the instruments (but not really trusting them), taking our dog-tags out and holding them up by their chains, and dangling them to see them hanging vertically to give us a visual perspective, of how we were flying. Since we were over Texas, we knew we didn't have mountains to contend with, we kept looking for a hole in the cloud floor, and when we found one, I pushed the collective stick down, and we dropped through it. Whew! No problem. It was a very interesting experience, one I'm glad to have had, but a bit scary at the time. I'll never forget the visual of that "room" we were flying in.
Dangling your dog tag on its chain would not have worked reliably to show you are in level flight. For example, in a coordinated turn it would have dangled straight down on its chain. It's much better to use the instruments. Hopefully you had an attitude indicator.
let's just say he isn't just a pilot. This man is a poet!
So embarrassing why did I say that what a bozo I am :-)
Like he's reading a book
Scud running is dangerous and going up top and then not being able to see the ground is very dangerous for us VFR VMC pilots. I can imagine you had a real nail biter
going there. Glad you made it back safely. I am sure you learned from the mistake and we did too! Thanks for sharing!
I suppose it helped that it was the aircraft that was VFR only, still not wise but it ended up OK. Thank you Terrall
Loved your description of being above the clouds!
I don't know why I put that in there very embarrassing :-)
Nice video mate. Really enjoyed that flight, good airmanship by recognising the situation.
Appreciated thank you
Been there and done that as well, and that was in the days before GPS let alone Garmin 750 or 1000. Critical thing is not to panic but to contact ATC and, if necessary, have them give you a radar guided talk down until VFR. I contacted Odiham and they vectored me. I was always told by my instructor that I spent too much time flying on instruments but it served me well on that ocassion! That was many years ago and I now only fly on MS Flight Simulator. With that tool there is simply no excuse not to be instrument capable even if not IR rated.
Two key things: If you get approach involved, declare an emergency, then your decent would be protected with help from controllers making it much safer, and the limitation of your plane is negated by it being an emergency, (U.S.). The second thing is that holes are going to close at sunrise. I will add that anyone thinking that the chance of hitting someone is so low, just descend and don't worry about it -they should not be flying.
Superb comment and advice thanks John.
Would this be a Pan Pan ?
@@lollipopjuggs I wouldn't use either pan or mayday. If you have fuel, it's just a call to approach while you can still see and avoid, but definitely convey that it is an emergency situation in a VFR aircraft.
Another great video terry. Well done, nice work and good to share!
Thank you Tim, but why do things have to go wrong to get a decent video together 🤣
glad you got some vitamin D.
seriously though that sunny fluffy cloud top view... breathtaking. I wouldn't want to come down from that.
It's just too tempting but very naughty :-)
Glad you’re safe back on the ground and thank God for people like you that are brave enough to put that out there for others to learn from. They say that wisdom is the best thing to learn by because you’re learning from someone else’s mistakes bravo friend!
Thanks David, it wasn't that unsafe as the cloud was very thin but it shows how an unqualified pilot can get into trouble just through curiosity. Thanks again Sir
Thanks for sharing this. I think there is a long period in the process of learning to fly in which newer pilots (like me) make a ton of mistakes and learn from them. Usually those mistakes are not dangerous (an error in a radio call, a misunderstanding with ATC, misjudging the weather, etc). These mistakes are frightening because they reveal how little we know and how fallible our judgment is. But they are just part of the process. It looked to me like nothing unsafe happened here. A bad call to fly on top, but even if you had to descend through a thin layer of clouds, you could almost certainly have done it safely. It is easy to let mistakes like this psych you out, but I think that is a mistake. Your job is to be a safe pilot, not a perfect pilot. I’d say learn from what you did wrong here but don’t beat yourself up for having an opportunity to learn from your mistakes.
Thank you Robin excellent advice.
I miss VFR!
Looks like you had an amazing adventure up there captain!
You make breaking VFR minimums sound absolutely lovely.
It was wrong and stupid I agree. I do cringe at my poetic attempt or is that pathetic attempt at whimsy :-)
This is a very common situation that you can easily get into even on a planned route. Most VFR pilots have experienced similar situations during longer fly-outs. It is therefore crucial to study the weather charts of the destination and the alternate. I have also been flying on top for a while and got a bit nervous towards the end of a longer leg. Looking at the fuel reserve, this is the moment when one hopes that the ATIS has not changed significantly. ;-) Thank you for sharing this video. A very valuable reminder.
Always fly the airplane I couldn’t believe how bumpy those clouds where and how nervous it was
On my first student pilot long XC solo, I flew out on a beautiful day. Landed and enjoyed a nice FBO. Flight back looked good but needed to get going. On the way back the clouds started to fill in. I remembered my instructor saying "don't go under scud running, you can get trapped", so I climbed above. By the time I got to my destination airport it was a total cloud layer, oops. I knew I had plenty of fuel so I didn't panic. Spotted a decent size hole and luckily was able to make a descending spiral to get out. Was very close to having to just turn around and find clearer skies, but it was a good lesson in how quickly those gaps can fill in.
Great story and well done. Good Job. Thank you
Wow, had a VERY similar experience on my own long XC as a student pilot! I bet a lot of us have similar stories.
Thank-you for sharing!!
I'm just starting lessons as a retirement hobby. I appreciate videos like yours to reinforce good judgment.... thanks. Also, my son, as a young VFR pilot rented a plane and took off for weekend flight to a destination about 200 miles away. The weather was marginal for VFR for his return, and even after delaying a day or two wasn't improving . Forced with the cost and embarrassment of having a couple of IFR pilots come and retrieve him and the plane he decided to accept the advise of another pilot - against his own gut feel - and attempt the flight back. He ended up in between cloud layers over some mountains and called ATC for some help. He managed to get the plane down through the clouds because there wasn't any other option. He's lucky to be alive and learned the same lessons you mentioned.
Appears scary. Loved the words.
Don't put yourself in situation that will create pressure on you
Agree 100% Rohit
My "I won't do that again" flight was single engine in IMC at night. Had a missed approach at a small airport with a non-precision approach due to worse than forecast weather, but I got on the ground at a larger airport with an ILS. The flight went OK, but I realized that I was putting complete faith in the engine. If there had been a problem, I'd be dead.
"You paid for your licence, use all of it" 😬
Thanks Terry, great video, good decision to share, lots of learning for all.
Thank you Allan, it was a difficult call to share something when you know you've made a poor decision but I've never admitted I was perfect and I never will until the day I stop flying.
Sharing these videos, save lives for new pilots, and the way you narrated letting new pilots know that you’re going to make mistakes, but as long as you learn a lesson from your mistake. You are becoming a better pilot. The best way to stay safe, is prevention, know your limits and checklist, checklist, checklist before takeoff and landing.
I lost some work mates in a situation like this. They were climbing, the hole they were in closed, and that was that. The pilot lost it and they cartwheeled across a field, 2dead, one with a broken back. They should never have taken off, VFR was pretty much not available.
Oh I am so sorry Jim, this is why I titled the video 'Dangerous decision'. Thank you
Watching this video gave me heart palpitations as I got myself in a similar situation. I have a mppl licence and my plane had basic instrumentation/ VFR only. On this trip the broken cloud was getting down to around 1,400 ft but I heard on the radio a Cessna was VFR in sunshine above the clouds. As the cloud base was broken I flew up through a large hole and into sunshine. As you say it was magical for about 2 minutes when ahead of me was a huge wall of cumulus clouds and the ground had disappeared below me!!! Luckily I had been speaking to a controller minutes before and also running Skydemon and so communicated that I was doing a 180 and was there any conflicting traffic under me. " no traffic near you". I eventually found a narrow opening and dropped down through but had around 15 seconds of white out on the way through. The moral of this story is that a Cessna can be VFR and IFR, something that I had not Computed when making that wrong decision.
Wow what a story and hopefully something that other non-instrument pilots will take heed of. Thank you Peter.
that's why we call them sucker holes!!
Great video Terry, keep them coming.👍
Cheers Graeme
Glad you got down safely! I was in a situation similar to this a little while ago. Got lucky..
I had planned a VFR cross country from my home airport down to a nearby airport about 50nm away to pick a friend of mine up and fly him back to my home airport. The weather was clear skies. The GFA’s, TAFs, METARs, and even the weather briefing centre we’re all clear as well. It was supposed to be a sunny day.
Shortly after departure, once I was at cruise, I noticed a light wispy layer of cloud starting to appear below me. I thought that was really odd, I was 20nm into my flight and there wasn’t supposed to be anything at all. So I kept flying towards my destination, and within about 10minutes, I was above a cloud layer that I couldn’t see through. I had lost ground contact completely…
I thought, “ah, no worries. I’ll text my buddy and tell him that I had to turn around cause of a cloud layer.. I’ll just fly back to my home base, where it is clear still…..” Little did I realize, that cloud layer developed across the whole region, including my home base… I was working on my IFR at the time, so I knew I could fly an approach, but the aircraft was only equipped with LOC equipment.
By the time I had joined a right downwind (in controlled airspace, so at least the controller was aware of my situation) I was still at 4000ft ASL above the clouds… The circuit altitude is 2900ft ASL. NOT A GOOD PLACE TO BE IN. I was moments away from declaring an emergency, which would’ve allowed me to fly a LOC only approach without legal repercussions, when I saw a road through the low part of a cloud layer.
I asked tower what the reported ceiling was, and he stated 2800ft ASL. I told him that I found a spot, and that I’m going to descend through it to get below the cloud layer… I lost sight of the ground for about 3 seconds, had to focus on my instruments to make sure I didn’t lose control of the aircraft. Fortunately I popped out below the cloud at 2800ft, and was able to land safely.
All around, a VERY bad situation. The legality of everything was GREY at best. Fortunately I did have a backup plan if need be, but it wasn’t ideal.
The new SPECI METAR was released after I landed. I also called the weather briefing centre to see what was going on, and they had updated everything about 15minutes after I had landed.
There’s obviously a lot to unpack with this situation. I felt this video really describes the emotion/stress of this sort of situation really well.
If I can give any tips on when this sort of stuff happens, all I can say is, BREATH. Just, sit back for a few moments and just breath. Talk to someone on frequency, maybe ask what the weather is like somewhere else, or try to contact a controller (they’re always there to help). Remember, there’s always an option. Even in IMC, focus on your training, hold straight and level, breath… Ask for help.
I absolutely love videos like this, it always brings people with different experiences together for discussion, which I find is a GREAT learning opportunity.
Cheers!
"No worries" ?? You must be an Aussie or maybe a Kiwi ? 😄
I told all my flight students about the value of having an instrument rating. It changes your life and it can save your life, because all you have to do in that circumstance is call up ATC and tell them you need an emergency pop up clearance……and 99.999% of the time they are going to be happy to give you that clearance. Drama over. Being in the IFR system is the safest place to be when flying.
100% agree Art, but not all aircraft are suitable as instrument platforms. IFR means you will most likely need to fly in IMC and there's so many pilots out there that file IFR and use the airways system but either route around any weather or only ever fly in IMC on autopilot. It's such a perishable skill that I feel is being eroded by the likes of highly automated GA aircraft like the Cirrus. Stick a Cirrus (not picking on Cirrus pilots) jockey in a C152 with basic instruments put them in the clouds and ask them to manoeuvre and I imagine many will lose control. The good thing about NOT having an IR means you are less likely to fly in conditions where most light SEP's should never really be anyway. Just my thoughts, thanks for the watch and great comment Sir.
@@ShortField You have identified another pet peeve I have...the Button Pusher Pilot. You need to hand fly the aircraft in all conditions. If you can't, it means you need more flight time perfecting that skill. I think a lot of airlines are hiring automation managers and not guys who can fly the plane when the SHTF. While not every aircraft is a worthy platform, the people who get caught on top or fly into IMC are usually flying a plane which is a good and capable IFR aircraft. While even a skilled guy can leave a gust lock in place and die like Dale, survival favors the pilot with more skill. Thanks for the content.
@@arthouston7361 Cheers Art. RIP Dale
Well done: that was the sort of cloud/inversion that looks worse than it is from above due to the light. But aht doesn't make it any the less challenging! Well done sharing to warn others. Andy
Thanks Andy, really appreciate your comment and view.
I subbed just because this is so well presented.
That is wonderful really appreciated and I hope I can keep it.
Thanks for sharing.
“Experience is the hardest kind of teacher. It gives you the test first and the lesson afterward.”
― Oscar Wilde
I almost got caught out by ground fog just after sunset in Seattle. On the down wind fog was forming at both ends of the runway and closing on the middle. The tower approved a midfield landing and I was able to get on the ground before entering the fog bank on rollout. After that I paid more attention to the split between temperature and dew point before taking off on a flight I would be landing after sunset.
It can catch us all out. Thank you David
It has happened to me also, a winter's ground fog was lifting as morning wore on. All forecasts were showing expected improvement. I took off for a short flight of around an hour. Once in the air, I got on top of the cloudbase and then the clouds dropped to the deck again, only 20 or 30 minutes into the flight I discovered from pilot reports that my departure airfield was now enshrouded in thick fog. In fact no where close by was within IFR minima. I pressed on looking for better conditions and fortunately found that my destination airfield was sitting pretty much in a hole in the fog. I went for it and landed successfully. Only to observe the fog close over the airfield within 15 mins of being on the ground. I was not at any point in any real danger, I was very much aware the weather to the North, well within range of fuel was CAVOK. None-the-less, always have a plan B when you have these marginal conditions.
That scenery while skimming the cloud tops is just jaw dropping gorgeous...
You seem so humble and calm.
Nice.
Keep on . . .
Thank you Sir.
I’m a glider pilot and was flying out of Aboyne in Scotland. The lift was strong , and I was quickly climbing through 20,000 feet. On the descent the gaps filled in and had to drop through cloud to get back to the airfield. Yes , it’s wonderful above cloud , but you must be aware of the dangers at all times.
I am used to being above cloud as I am an instrument rated pilot, however with the restrictions on this aircraft to VFR only it was a bit naughty going upstairs. Great story Julian, glad it worked out OK. Glider pilots are awesome.
20,000 without oxygen? Yikes!
20,000 without oxygen! Yikes indeed. Comments please, Julian.
@@hairybear7705 on a wave site like Scotland in the lee of mountains , much greater heights are possible. Indeed the world record in a glider is in excess of 76,000 feet in the Andes ,Argentina. Oxygen is carried on all glider flights above 10,000 feet.
Something of the same thing happened to me flying in the US. Thank goodness, my flight instructor had given me about 3 hours of hood time before I got my private license. Like this guy, I let myself down through a sketchy hole and managed a safe landing. This was years ago. I kept at it until I get my instrument, multi-engine and commercial ratings, which I found useful working in the pr department for Beech Aircraft in Wichita, KS. They were happy, too . . . I didn't bend any of their pretty new planes.
I sort of was the architect of my own mistake. I have an IR but not twin or commercial, in the UK LSA types can't fly in IMC so the IR is pretty useless in this aircraft. Your story Dick is a great lesson, thank you Sir.
@@ShortField You know, guys . . . there comes a time in life and death situations that having the proper rating and the proper situation isn't worth a fig. My private instructor gave me the barest of tools before turning me loose, and they saved my life. So, I broke all the rules. It cost me some interesting chats with guys in suits but I didn't lose my license . . . went on to fly some very nice equipment. I also learned the value of getting very clear instructions on each phase of flying.
You gotta love the accent!!! Thank you for being transparent that takes maturity!!
Thx for that video and for info about your error. Your video can help up not to do same error in our pilot life.
I have read that here in the USA, during the barnstorming days, pilots caught on top in old basic VFR aircraft, knowing that there was sufficient cloud height below, would enter a spin which would safely get them through the cloud deck. They must have had nerves of steel. I was flying VFR on top on a long cross country once which is allowed in the USA. I was cutting across a section over Canada on top and contacted Canadian ATC who shocked me when they told me I was illegal because VFR on top was not allowed in Canada. Fortunately both I and my aircraft were IFR certified so they let me file an IFR flight plan so that I could continue my cross country.
Thank goodness you were qualified. Thanks Ray.
In my early Navy flight training, two of my instructors told me to spin through a hole. I was nervous, but said "Aye-aye, Sir" and did it. Exciting!
My dad learned to fly in a cub in 60s and my grandfather was a WW2 p-47 pilot and I can confirm this is true. My dad had a citabria when he was really young and it was IFR equipped, he climbed up through an overcast layer on a long cross country and lost his vacuum system. Got the ceilings from a local weather station and spun it through the layer with no issue.
@@benjigault9043 yep, pull the power all the way back, keep pulling the stick back to lose airspeed, when the stall breaks, hit and hold full left rudder, keep the stick all the way back, no aileron, and down you go! Use right rudder to stop the spin, then recover from the stall being careful not to overstress the aircraft.
@@rayraycthree5784 Oh yeah I love to spin the cuby! I think every pilot could gain from some simple aerobatic instruction. Cheers.
Be careful. While you're enjoying the views above the cloud it's possible for the base to drop down to become ground level mist and fog.
Thank you for posting this! Great video.
Really appreciated and from a fellow pilot and CZcamsr.
my son has almost completed his PPL and I keep sending him your videos as a heads up but he already watched them everytime!! Keep up the great work thanks for the videos
Oh that is such a lovely comment, thank you sir and to your son.
Rotflmao one day he will start sending you back videos just like this one or worse.
He completed his PPL now and is at Skyborne doing his ATPL 👍
Just a remark: In some countries, the licenses/airspace doesn't allow to fly VFR on top. For example, in the Czech Republic, we are only allowed to fly over 4/8 of the cloud layer if we are not able to switch to IFR. This means that only if you are IR certified, current, and your aircraft is certified for IFR, only then you are allowed to be VFR on top. Strangely, it also extends to other FIRs. So even when flying in the UK, I cannot fly VFR on top (in VFR-only aircraft) because my license doesn't allow it. Even tho I'm CPL(A)/IR, and the UK airspace allows it too.
If your licence is EASA (UK recognises it) you can do it in the UK. TBH in UK FIR VFR is defined by SERA which is unamended and is the ICAO standard. Czech may not allow it through local amendment but that shouldn't stop you in UK or France (same definition)?
@@ShortField The problem is not in recognition of the license or airspace limitations but in the limitation of my license. As my license is issued by the Czech CAA (under EASA), I had to follow the limitations of that license even when flying abroad. So by flying abroad, the limitation of the license is not lifted - if I'm not able to go IFR, I'm not allowed to fly VFR on top (of > 4/8). Noone in the UK would probably know about such a limitation, so I would probably be fine unless there would be an accident/incident that would require an investigation.
Been there, done that many times. In an aerobatic biplane, I simply circle above a hole in the clouds and fly straight down the hole quickly punching out the bottom of the clouds. I've climbed vertically through a cloud hole also. Lots of fun. The odds of hitting another aircraft with that approach is nearly zero.
I see you guys doing that all the time and I always think it must be disorientating. I suppose with a high performance machine you are in and out very quickly. Thank you
“Nearly zero”. You may be willing to accept that risk but what about the pilot and passengers of the plane you hit ?
@@mrgreen4688 There were no airplanes or people to hit. Just the beautiful clear sky.
@@pittss2c601 that’s great. just referring to your comment that the odds were nearly zero. VFR and IFR rules are there for a reason. getting stuck like this should not be something that doesn’t concern a pilot. as a general aviation pilot, I don’t want people punching thru clouds above me because they think there are no other aircraft. understand you felt it was safe but it shouldn’t be considered fun.
@@mrgreen4688 I didn't 'feel' that it was safe I used my eyes. Just like I do when I drive a car in good and bad weather. And I always consider GA flying fun.
Thanks for posting your story as cautionary tale for other VFR pilots. Getting your instrument rating is a very rewarding endeavor, even some advanced IFR training will be a great safety margin for inadvertent IMC if you decide to stay with your VFR rating. Blue Skies.
Thanks for the kind comment sir.
Great video - thanks for sharing your learning moments
Thank you David
This is why all pilots should learn IFR even if they just do it on their own and don't actually get the rating.
And just as you did, a controller can advise you where traffic is and/or direct them away from you so you can drop through the clouds in relative safety.
Yes Fredashay it's good to have and I am instrument rated but aircraft is VFR only, sadly.
@@ShortField Thanks for replying! :-)
Fly safe!
If you are trained in IFR and your plane has both artificial horizon and speed indicators, there is no safety concern here. If the speed deviates from the desired speed then control it with your pitch until your altitude decreases enough to get below the clouds.
The clouds were high enough to see the ground at a safe altitude after passing through them. Sometimes I think that we make a lot more ado about "safety" than is appropriate. Safety is getting through those clouds before your fuel gets too low and a diversion becomes impossible. Spending a lot of time hunting around for the clearest part of a wispy cloud layer actually costs a lot in terms of safety by depleting fuel and light and stamina and pilotage.
If you weren't IFR trained enough to use the artificial horizon and other instruments to control the plane to maintain proper attitude with wings level, or if the clouds were too low, then I could see the point about safety. Even if you aren't instrument rated, any PPL should be able to keep their wings level with an artificial horizon and manage speed and descent using pitch and power.
I agree and did say it wasn't that dangerous, my title is really saying it's always a dangerous option for a visual only pilot to be tempted above cloud. Great comment and I agree with you 100%
Very similar thing happened to me. A fairly new private pilot in the mid 90s, I had a Piper Arrow all to myself, 2 friends excited about going flying, and the CAF Airshow (my favorite airshow) in Harlingen Texas to get to from San Antonio. It was around 3 hours flying I think, and my weather brief revealed something weird & ominous. From 30 miles south of San Antonio to 50 miles north of Harlingen there was fog. Serious, thick ground fog up to 300 ft AGL. Forecast to remain there all morning, with almost no visibility in the fog. Some airports on my route were reporting visibility in double-digit feet! Young & dumb, we departed & flew over the most incredible blanket of white I've ever seen. I was hyper-aware of an engine failure meaning I wouldn't have a clue what I was descending into. The realization that we would very possibly not live through whatever we hit on the ground after a descent weighed on me every minute of that long flight. Approaching Harlingen the fog opened up to clear, bright, beautiful VFR as I joined the parade of approaching traffic, landed, and enjoyed the magnificent CAF Airshow. I think of this often since I still fly. Huge risk taken with the lives of two friends. Stupid, dangerous, but a lesson learned & I'll never do this again.
Great story and a lesson for us all. Thank you sir.
Good video. Always consider that least possible thing to occur, to actually be that which does occur.
Thank you Will.
Can't resist: "if you can see through it you can fly through it" ... and it doesn't sound like there was any serious danger of LOC with the IR(R) ... but no, this shouldn't have been done without an IFR capable aircraft. And on a day like that I'd have been at least interested in the possibility of icing, so may not have planned to go through cloud even if the aircraft were allowed to.
I love it that you actually watched it properly Tim. Most people just say "Get your IR" Thank you.
The short answer is yes. You may legally fly on top as long as you can maintain the appropriate VFR cloud clearances. Which also means you cannot legally descend thru the clouds to get back under them, you have to find a break in the clouds.
Agree Sir
Bad judgement. Whenever time is an issue, always err on the side of caution and go home. Always y'all. Thanks for the video. We need these reminders regularly.
Great video and lessons. I did something similar a few weeks ago, but I think keeping in the VFR minimals all the time. I was flying higher about 8000ft from an area to another, targeting an airfiled (a cross country flight), and found the layer about 5000ft. It's border was very well defined, and I could just go back and abort the rest of the flight, or go back, go down and enter below the layer (still about 2000ft above ground), or continue - and I decided to continue, as I knew I had a 100% clear sky behind me - if not being able to descend I could return. As in your video I had contact to the groung thru the holes (a little larger than yours). I even contacted an helicopter around to ask how were the conditions near the field I was targetting below the layer. After a while I had do descend, and searched for holes, and could find some. Once below I continued the flight about 4000ft altitude, or 1500ft above the ground. The situation was not comfortable as flying above a layer was totally new for me, but I never was really out of options - if not being able to descend seeing the ground (it is not IFR) I could go back.
Thanks for sharing.
if you are an nstrument rated pilot why were you so afraid to dive through the clouds?