SIG 44/16: The Best Service Pistol, But The Road Not Traveled
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- čas přidán 6. 02. 2020
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When SIG was developing the pistol that would ultimately be adopted as the m/49 by the Danish Army and the P49 by the Swiss Army (P210 commercially), they initially experimented with both single stack and double stack variations. Today, we will take a look at a SIG 44/16, the double stack version - both on the table and out at the range.
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As soon as you cycled the slide, I knew you would compliment the action. That sound alone said a lot.
1947 when almost the whole world is broke and has more weapons than it knows what to do with was probably not the best time to bring out a beautiful but expensive sidearm.
And yet that's what the Swiss and Danes did, just one with less rounds to use between reloads.
well... it tends to be more like:
Hey! The war have ended, so lets prepare for the next one!" way of thinking.
example? AK-47
Nah, new developmental programs were thriving at that time, and many of them were beautiful but expensive, like SIG here or EM-2
@GYPSY KING FURY sort of. They were expensive to produce Individually but once the Soviets hurt HUGE dedicated factories they were cheap just because of huge economies of scal
@DR. JOE ROGAN the original milled versions were, but they quickly made it much cheaper to produce using stamped parts
Shot show 2021...
Sig USA introduces the all new P216 after an early prototype was featured on Forgotten Weapons.
Gun Jesus raises another one!!!!!!
That would actually be great.
I'd dream of buying it.
@@Jscot1001 My sentiments exactly- They really left a wide ass open space for the CZ 75. If Sig had been making these double stack P210's and kept making them, the CZ 75 might not exist as it does. It might be entirely different. What I mean is- I think there is a good chance that, when they made the CZ 75, they were thinking to themselves, "let's make a P210, but with a staggered magazine".
@Dutchy sorry, I didn't realize the P216 was actually a thing. I thought I was just making up a name for the new P210 with a 16 round magazine....
@Dutchy LMAO! Gary MADE UP the P216 as a name for the double stack P210, as a JOKE, because Sig Sauer wouldn't come out with a "Sig 44/16" and it follows their naming scheme.
Quick Google next time?
Recently Sig has been re-releasing 210's, it would be cool if they dug up this design for the modern market.
I'd jump on that so fast.
SIG doesn't re-release anything, because SIG doesn't really exist anymore. SIG SAUER released a reproduction model based on the SIG P210.
IMHO:
The SIG SAUER P210 Legend failed to do the original justice, because they compromised its accuracy and reliability in one fell swoop.
The SIG SAUER P210 Target isn't really a P210 to begin with, so that's that.
@@jovankaynak2159
That's what I learned too. The reproduction guns (german Legends) tried to cut costs anywhere they could. I.e. The frame is no longer forged, but cast. The internals are no longer milled and hardened, but MIM-ed. They used the stainless steel, which is softer and less wear-resistent than the original carbon steel. The guns are no longer polished and blued, but QPQ-baked (which hides imperfections, but looks cool). They redesigned the safety and added 12 additional potential failure points and so on and so forth. Here's a nice review for those interested in the details:
larvatus.livejournal.com/283813.html
Also, SIG SAUER now fires 5 shots at 25 m to test the precision. SIG fired 10 shots at 50 m. Let that sink in.
The SIG Sauer P210 Target is basically a P220 with internal rails. They got rid of basically anything that made the SIG P210 so precise.
Btw.: Leon Crottet will add a lateral magazin release for ~ 800.- CHF. If you want a true SIG P210 but don't like the heel mag release, it's definetly worth it.
www.waffen-crottet.ch/
I use the -2 for regular training as well. It might be less accurate (not less precise tho) than the -5 and -6, but I'm not nearly good enough to justifiy switching to a -5/-6.
Wish the new p210s looked like old p210s
I'm not going to buy a standard 210 but I'd love one configured like this to bad there are so few mags that use that grip angle maybe a styre m9 mag?
So they could have had a higher quality equivalent of the CZ 75 30 years earlier. What a shame that they didn’t develop it further.
I have to wonder if building that as a typical DA/SA would have compromised some of the desirable features on that gun. For sure none of the DA/SA Sigs are as sleek as that gun.
Now when you put it that way.... wow...
@@dbmail545 the standard CZ75 is really more of a SA/DA design, with the DA meant for second strike on a hard Primer. But yeah I get your point.
That’s what I thought when I saw it. It looks very similar to a cz75
Lol wat? 210 is by no means higher quality then the cz75. Sincerely 210 owner.
I had the weirdest dream last night. Gun Jesus sold me a 10/22 for 800$
$800??? Was it a WWRD 10/22?
@@bigretardhalo just pay the man. It will be the final preproduction prototype with matching numbers and a unique thirty shot magazine.
Lol it was a standard one with a sticker on the side that said 1998. I took his word for it
@@JackedRado71 🙈🤣
Mine was even weirder. The Zip 22 went successful and now people mount these on drones
Someone should buy the production rights and tool up. This is a winner, and with a decent trigger job would become an instant modern classic.
But it would be FAR too expensive - even the surplus 210's sell for more than what a modern SIG costs
@@noremorsewoodworking2258 The SIG P210 Legend is currently in production (Made in Germany costs about $3000, made in USA $2300). A used P210-2 can be had for as little as $800 in Switzerland. SIG-SAUER in Exeter might be your best bet to get this into production.
@@Haaraff, In the U.S. the older P210s are fairly expensive. A used 210-2 would probably start at $2000 and go up from there depending on condition. I've seen pristine examples selling for $8000.
@@noremorsewoodworking2258 besides the beautiful machining, this looks no more complex to manufacture than a high end 1911. And, hey, if it's good, people will buy it.
@@Haaraff Actually, P210-2s now typically go for around $1200-$1500. Demand has recently risen sharply, notably on behalf of collectors. The 210 Legend addresses what I consider a major problem with the original design, namely the magazine heel release (arrgh!), but in terms of machining, it's not quite in the same league.
I purchased a SIG P230 in 1996, albeit a smaller pistol and caliber, and it was the most accurate pistol I have ever fired. Bullseye straight, right out of the box. I cannot imagine, nor have I experienced anything but accurate performance for any SIG, speaking as a US Army Infantryman, NCO and Officer. I have fired many of the world’s military sidearms, and I am in complete agreement, that a combat pistol should not be measured against a target pistol. Great website, by the way. 👍
My profile picture has never been so relevant
_We have to go back!_
@@piotrgrzelak2613 LoL 10/10
This gun is a legend in Sweden. Still ranks high in many competitions due to its superb precision. And its revered as one of the best service type pistols. It kinda has an occult following to be honest 😚
Honestly I think they could have filed down the grip a bit to the metal and have about the same dimensions as the 8 round pistol. There's a significant amount of wood around the handle.
@@jason200912 I thought that had more to do with the reliability of the mags. The grip is ergonomic enough as is.
Though these days a reliable double stacked mag should be doable in a modern 1911 clone.
Ian i hope you read this. From a Swedish perspective more than 6 rounds don't make sense. Our traditional biggest shooting sports called fältskytte (field shooting) and militär snabbmatch (military speedmatch) you only use 6 rounds. Basicly field shooting is 1-6 targets set in terrain and you got between 5-20 seconds to shot. You don't see the stage before you arrive and you travel by foot or transport with a assigned shooting squad. It's more like IPSC than bullseye shooting. Think IPSC with no reloads and shooter can't move but targets up to 90 m and targets can move such as fall or pop up. Traditional targets include such as car weels, drive hatch for tanks, attack dogs etc
This is the 210 Sig should've reproduced. What a beaut.
Yeap. This should have been the "Carry" version of the Sig 210.
@@Dominik189 I agree entirely. I don't think the new Sig will take off, it really doesn't make any sense. Most people who know and appreciate the Sig P210, they are going to stick with the Target version with the beautiful wood grips that are suited towards what the P210 is so good at.
@@bearcat648 exactly. Although it could develop a smallish cult like following. The carry isn't bad. It's just low capacity and that's it's main drawback which, for some people isn't a deal-breaker.
I could see this on archer.
"Ha, you've got a sig 2/10 and you just fired eight bullets, so you're out of- OW LAAAAANAAAAAA"
A 16 round P 210. My coolness meter just exploded!
I could list you a lot of benefits that come with living in Switzerland, but to start out, the flag is a big plus. :)
The Black Baron
Can’t be said in Austria - Big minus ;)
@@rammuh1029 Well, it is the same for Latvia, except the bars are of an uneven size. It's a quite slim/narrow minus.
@@rammuh1029 Germany is THREE minuses! :^D
One of the benefits that come with living in Switzerland being.... that as an expat with permanent residency, you can own as many guns as you can afford / accommodate. The Swiss ask very few questions, and automatically assume you have the requisite skills and sense of responsibility. If that isn't unique in Europe, I dunno what is. And like the Brits, they laugh in the face of Brussels. ;^)
Very good video I never heard of that pistol and am pretty impressed, Iv'e only handled a Sig 210 but never shot one. Really nice guns.
Competition shooters ruin everything good: the Buffington v. Crozier rear sight wars, the marines cocking up the m16a2, and now apparently the nascent p210
So, the idea that "competition shooters ruin everything" doe that includes such things as'modern pistol technique,' which includes things like the high grip, the reliance on the 'wondernine' concept, speed reloads, etc.
The competition shooters were looking for a competition pistol, not a 'fighting pistol'.
Remember up well into the 1980's much of the world was considering the various .380 /9mm Kurz/9mm Makarov as a 'fighting pistol,' suitable for police and military uses. As someone else has pointed out the martial pistol has been considered quite the secondary weapon often more of a status symbol in the military. The rise of the 9 mm in the US is more a function of the bullet improvements than many other factors.
@@charlesadams1721 But this was supposed to be designed as a fighting pistol, not a competition pistol. So yes, they ruined it.
@@charlesadams1721 I agree. you see all the "serious" folks at the range practicing these ridiculous techniques that are not nearly as applicable to real life self defense as they think. Don't get me wrong, it's great to practice but compared to the guy that practices weaver and slow firing they aren't getting much more value as it applies to real life.
I'd argue the army people argued for more of the 'undesirable' features of the M16A2 than the marines did. It was the army people that wanted the longer stock, finger bump grip and a couple other features that people commonly complain about. Heck, for the grip, they wanted a full finger groove one, but had to compromise down to the singular bump because the marines said no. Really the main feature that really can be credited/blamed on the marines is the sights, because they wanted the functionality of the M1 and M14 sights back, in fact the reason for the square front post was to mimic the M14's sight picture as perfectly as possible.
@@charlesadams1721 Bullet improvements? Seems to me they are still using plain old FMJ ball at this time and the old Hague Convention still pretty much dictates that (assuming countries still choose to follow it). The M9 served it's entire career with FMJ ball that was not really much different than the German service load of 1908 (9mm Parabellum/Luger/Nato itself dates to 1902, making it actually older than .45 ACP). I don't think the loading has been changed in any substantial way since they dropped the truncated cone shaped bullet for the round nosed shape we know now because it fed better in the 32 rd. 'snail drum' for the Luger and MP18.
"All things being Equal, the winner is the soldier with one more round in their magazine." - paraphrase EJE Rommel, 'Infantry Attacks'.
For some reason, when Ian mentioned the NRA and focus on target shooting made me think of the Savage 19-NRA which had a bit more military-style long foregrip originally, but then was changed later with the Savage 19-33-NRA to a heavier barrel and a thicker, shorter beavertail stock.
Today is my birthday, as usual Gun Jesus brings some interesting stuff to the table.
Thank you, Ian!
Awesome Banger!
The fictional “hand-howitzer” is based on the 210.
"Swedish Shooter's Association" - is that "Skarpskytterörelsen"?
Doesn't translate to English as the same but that's probably what he meant no?
I think it was Svenska SportSkytteFörbundet (SSF) at the time as they were the predecessor formed in 1943 to the current organization which was formed in 2009 as a combination of three different associations. Frivilliga Skytterörelsen, Skarpskytterörelsen and Skytterörelsens Ungdomsorganisation.
Today it's name is confusingly enough, Svenska SkytteSportFörbundet (SvSF), basically moving the words around.
I would also assume he actually meant to say "Swedish Sport Shooters Association".
Never mind. Today it's not the indigenous Swedes who does the shooting in Sweden.
@@Memovox Kan du inte hålla ditt rassegnäll någon annanstans? Det har liksom noll och intet att göra med Forgotten Weapons...
@ . Ahh yes.. The old "racist" card..
I don't know of any of my friends in the military wouldn't prefer more rounds in the magazine. Well that's bureaucracy for you.
Different priorities for different purposes. If you're in combat, you want more rounds, if you're firing slowly at a static paper target, you care more about a better hold that allows better accuracy and don't mind reloading more often.
Leroy Thompson has written some wonderful pieces on the P210, and really covers the salient points as to its superiority over its contemporaries.
To me, it is one of the finest examples of firearms engineering meets aesthetically pleasing design. The result: pure functionality...
Beautiful piece
Thank you, I learn so much from this channel
man they need to start making this pistol again!!
Very interesting report. I never know about a two line magazin to swiss service pistol, cause the 210 with eigth rounds is a very popular weapon in sportshooting here in Germany. Unfortunetly a very expensive weapon, but in high quality👍
Greatings from Berlin, Germany🙋♂️🍀
“Glass buttery smooth”
My favorite is SIG and I never heard of this SIG pistol this should be interesting thanks for making the video.
Great gun. Thanks for showing us something else that we did not know existed.
I would love it if you could do a video on the Luger Rifle M1906. I’ve always been fascinated in the design and have always wanted a video showing the real thing because there are only 3 pictures on the internet of it.
Old military think:
"Less bullets to fire means less ammo used - saves us money"
Modern military think:
"More bullets to fire means more targets hit - wins us battles"
I mean... things have changed.
More Dakka
Also that bullets are still pennies per round, for the government, but that everything else has inflated in price.
PassiveDestroyer the benefits of buying in bulk.
I think it was less about the money and more about having to actually haul all the ammo around in times where outside of train and ship lines you had to use literal horse power to move ammo (and everything else).
I would LOVE one of these! I was just thinking last week that as long as SIG is making new P210s, they really should produce a double stack version. I'm very comfortable with wide grips, as my favorite carry pistol is an HK USP45 fullsize and I shoot USPSA with an Elite.
Very, very interesting. Thanks for the vid. I do like my Sig Target, but if they got the enginerds who designed the P365 mag to design a double stack mag for the 210 Carry inspired by this old pistol, they'd sell a lot of them. Again thanks, Ian.
That sound! Lovely
I know there was some experimental danish ones with longer barrels and other things added sold on auction recently. I can't recall if they were double stack, but they were being tossed around as replacements for the danish army. It never happened and they are only just now changing to a new pistol.
The same target bullseye competition also occurred with handguns...in the US. .22,.38,.45. Were fired in the course of competition.
I never realized that Swedes had Teeny,Tiny, Baby hands!
In fairness, holding a single-stack P210 with Nill walnut grips is like your palm having an orgasm 😂
"Its as if the universe cried out in an instant ""Biiiiiiiiiiitch"" after hearing the swedes complaints."
Darn, I think I might just have stumbled on the junction where Forgotten weapons subscribers intersect and overlap with Garand Thumb ones.
You mean just like Trumps?
@@knightowl3577 Libs be like: "body shaming is wrong!" and "Small hands and small dick drumpfers"
I so thoroughly enjoy this channel. ... Are you left-handed/right-eyed? If so, your form seems very accommodating. Nice work.
Gorgeous gun.
Weird seeing the grip on this compared to the absolutely massive grip on the Swedish K
this is probably a situation where the company should go all apple on the client and just decide they know better than the customer and decide what's best for them 😂
Yay! A Sunday video, I knew this was a good week
As an professional army officer back in the 1980-90's and a member of the pistol shooting club at my regiment, I had the opportunity to borrow the p210/8 (44/8) including the 22lr conversion kit for a long time. It was a really nice experience compared with the standard service pistol, the m40 by Husqvarna (Licensed Lahti). The m40 was for obvious reasons nick named: "the cast iron owen" 😉.
Good! Next time, I'd like to watch the video related on type 64 battle rifle used by JSDF.
9:17 Never heard a pistol sneezing before.
Love to see the boys at 9 hole reviews give it a run.
Add a Ghost Ring Novak Rear sight and Fiber Optic Front sight, Square off the trigger Guard, replace the Steel Frame with a Polymer Frame, make all controls Ambidextrous (Lefty's Matter too), Make the Ejection Port 360°, use a Recoil Reduction System in place of a Guide Rod to cut down on the Wear and Tear, and add Finger Grooves....... I'd definitely go for it (I'm very Practical in my choices of design)
Are the Slides interchangeable? What about the Recoil spring and the barrel?
It's so cool to see SIG design elements and concepts have stayed consistent for so long.
Aaaaah what a shame this design wasn't followed up on more closely. Thanks for the vid, Ian. I had no idea this existed.
Beautiful pistol
Since Sig is already doing a modern 210 now again, it can't be too hard for them to tool up and bring us a 44/16 variant as well by the end of the year... One can hope...
SIG doesn't re-do anything, because SIG doesn't really exist anymore. SIG SAUER released a reproduction model based on the SIG P210.
IMHO:
The SIG SAUER P210 Legend failed to do the original justice, because they compromised its accuracy and reliability in one fell swoop.
The SIG SAUER P210 Target isn't really a P210 to begin with, so that's that.
There is no point or market for a 44/16, they already have far more modern polymer "fighting pistols" on offer...
@@lukethespook4361 "The P210 isn't really a P210"... lmao.
Great handle! Nice for large hands I’d imagine.
6:21 a sick feature indeed!
I once took a test to see what pistol matches my personality, and I got the P210. I'm not certain what that means, but from what I've seen the handgun is quite good.
Your channel is awesome! Keep up the great work!
Anyone know how to find more Information on old guns? I have a 1968 franchi 12ga shotgun that was bought brand new in Italy by my grandfather and has never been shot, I've tried looking up information about it but I can't find anything. I've tried googling the serial number and everything but can't find any info
Please do an episode on the phased plasma rifle in a 40 watt range. It's so forgotten that I asked my local gun shop owner and he had never heard of it.
Hey. Just what you see here buddy.
Damn that thing is smooth!
My god I thought I really wanted a 210. Now I want this version!!! Wow that is cool
hey man was wondering if you could do a video on the rapid fire training for bolt actions that ww2 germans underwent, a friend of mine described to me the intense and accurate rate of fire the german soldiers trained with such efficient skills and im pretty sure in my years of research ive seen it mentioned but i feel like you may know just how fast you can fire a k98 rifle.
When fudds attack.... we adopt an inferior pistol. Lol
Sweden is kind of the land of fudds, so yeah. Grumpy old men with wooden guns that hade everything else.
@@handlebullshit don't get me wrong. I love me some fud guns. But I love me some mg, and black rifles. Old, weird, ugly, massive, rube Goldberg, cool. If it has 1 or more and gose bang I'm in.
yes I like it but how did you do that, drop the mag and see a bullet then fire one shot? or was the mag empty? early Browning Hi Power.
I was one of the first to order a PARA 45 frame. this gun in production would have hurried double stack 45 along.
The gun was tested by Svenska Pistolskytteförbundet (Swedish Pistol Shooters Association). They mainly shoot a discipline called Fältskytte (Field Shooting), which is a practical type of shooting in the field with many targets in short time. The SIG P210 was like the informal standard pistol of Sweden in the late 20th century.
Hi Ian, it appears you are using a new camera for slow motion footage, may I ask what model you are using? Thanks.
Ian I have a gwyn campbel carbine #3172 and was wondering how you find out if it was issued and to who.
Nice pistol love to have this one on my side!
There is something about the looks of this pistol that I love.
It feels retrofuturistic to me or smt 'advanced'
Some drawings from the P210 seems to have half cock and some not. Does the 210 have half cock feature or not? I had two Berettas without half cock and I just can't understand why not to employ a half cock on a gun where it is needed, since there is no firing pin safety on the design.
Thanks for makin
The other day I was actually wondering why the P210 got adopted as a single stack 9mm when guns like the Hi Power had been around for a while, question answered!
They just needed to lose the heel mag release and it would be perfect.
IAN! huge fan form south africa here.
If it is at all possible, could you see if you can track down the Lobaev Arms DVL-10? I've only heard rumours of it, and i'd love to find out more about the history of it
Sig has always made beautiful firearms. Just look at the color and how that magazine looks and this is 1947
Don't think I'll every spend the money on a real 210 but that is why I bought an Armalite AR 24/15 TC. The AR 24/15 TC looks as though the love child of a CZ 75 and a Sig 210.
Thanks for this excellent video. I want one !
I think that is a great looking gun!
Don't know specifically why but at first glance the pistol triggers the thought, "I'm looking at a Hi-power variant . . . no I'm not." Still it is a fine looking weapon that unfortunately didn't make it to market. Very much enjoyed the segment and was educated as well.
If the mag tapers to a single feed I can't help but wonder if you could reliably load and fire 8 round magazines through it.
That's the coolest looking pistol I've seen
I wasn't aware Forgotten Weapons did metallic pornography.
This video should have the Pornhub intro.
It is called a "field stripping".
@@mrkeogh with intrduction by Larry Vickers
What? Metallic pornography is ALL Ian does ...
@@jayzenitram9621 beat me to saying it.
The action is video-game smooth.
"And that has made all the difference."
Awww, dammit! Now I absolutely want one of these! Could we convince Sig to start making them again?
Wonder if the 6 inch barrel from The p210-5 drops in... That would be a awsome target pistol
Will you do a meetup in Sweden or are you back stateside?
That is a Super Cool Pistol and even better than the Browning P35 which was not as accurate but did have a 13rd capacity back then and would have been it only competitor at the time.
Shooting in at Swedish ranges in the 70s I came across many old timers using the P210.
I often wonder why manufacturers do not put thin slab synthetic handles on the double stack guns to minimise the increase in handle size.
A double stack P210! Take my money! I shot a friend's P210 last weekend. Wow. What an amazing handgun. The only thing that would make it better would be double stack.
Those darned competition shooters have done it again.
Reminds me a LOT of the CZ 75 with that inverted slide rail design. I wonder, did CZ's designers get that idea from this gun, or did they come up with it on their own?
Jesus, that gun is beautiful. A P210 is good, but this is even better!
That is an awesome pistol.
Good looking gun.
"Superior military capability rejected because it wasn't as good for target shooting" ranks up there with the old legend about why Teletype machines (which didn't have the bandwidth to transmit mixed-case text) printed in ALL CAPS. The story, almost certainly apocryphal but strangely plausible, goes that the company commissioned a study to determine which case would be better, received conclusive evidence that lower case had superior readability and clarity, and then went with upper case instead because, as the company's chairman pointed out, in lower case "it would be impossible to spell the name of the Deity correctly."
With the 8 rounder you can really shoot more accurate than with a double stacked pistol. Can't tell you why but I noticed it too.
Ergonomics 🤷
It looks so futuristic.