W+F Bern P43: A Swiss Take on the Browning High Power
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In 1940, Switzerland began a series of trials to replace their Luger service pistols with something equally high quality, but more economical. They had squeezed as much simplification out of the Luger as they could in 1929, and by this time the guns just needed to be replaced. The first 1940 trial had only two entrants (a Petter prototype from SIG and an Astra 900), but a second trial in 1941 included a large assortment of modern handguns, including a French 1935A, a Polish Vis-35, and prototypes from both SIG and W+F Bern.
One of the most tenacious competitors (aside form the winning SIG/Petter design) was the Bern factory's series of Browning High Power copies. In this video, we will be looking at three progressive versions of this gun as they were modified through the course of the trials (which would last until 1949). While they are all mechanically very similar to the High Power, they will get progressively less visually similar as the trials progressed. In addition, we will see features like the slide lock, manual safety, and magazine release evolve and change.
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Switzerland: "we need to go cheaper"
also Switzerland: *adopts the SIG P210*
"Hey wanna adopt an improved 16 rounder version of this excellent rugged battle proven Browning High Power?"
"No thanks. We will stick to the single stack magazine and overengenired Sig P210, because we are Swiss, and all that matters to us is to make a perfect bullseye on a target at 50 yards."
"Shortly before World War I, the German Kaiser was the guest of the
Swiss government to observe military maneuvers. The Kaiser asked a
Swiss militiaman: 'You are 500,000 and you shoot well, but if we
attack with 1,000,000 men what will you do?' The soldier replied: 'We
will shoot twice and go home.'"
I have shot, many moons ago a .22 LR version of the Sig. It is a beautiful piece of kit. Though if I was getting into trouble, I'd like a HI Power to get me out.
maybe it matters to them to employ their own infrastructure and workforce and not just export their wealth abroad, because the import is 0,02$ cheaper, there is a well known country who didn't do that and now every member of that country is basically in debt for the foreseeable future
doesn't have to be mountainous, woods and snow work just fine, ask Finns :)
oldirty` I heard that was the Swiss Prime Minister.
The Swiss. The only people on earth who could look at a John Browning design and go, "meh".
amin johari
meh, we can do better
Nah, the following P-49 (SIG-210) was based on Browning as well but its still one of the most expensive amd accurate weapons made. Even today they still produce it as the "P-210 Legend".. . ;-). Usually we make things more expensive, but much better as well.
They make clocks for a reason i guess
Lol exactly
Isn't the point of Browning's guns that they are 'meh'.
They work and are reliable without being another special. They are cheap and easy to make without being rough.
They are unremarkable and that's what makes them great at what they do.
So really. Wouldn't it be more odd that someone think a browning pistol is odd or outside the box
Swiss...cheapening...simplifying? *Head explodes from impossible equation*
Got to give all the Gnomes of Zurich and Cuckoo Clock makers something to do. Note Black Forest Cuckoo Clocks= Good guns from there, Swiss Clock makers= Good Guns.
A cheap low quality Swiss meets a rude Canadian and a black hole is created.
We usually make it 10x more expensive than competition, and 10x more complex, too
One exception seems to be the sig pro series of pistols that SIG Switzerland made, which was their final weapon produced. It's simplicity is what makes it so affordabe & reliable.
@@DL-ij7tf you might be surprised but there are rude canadians. I worked at a gun store near a hunting preserve where they had exotic game animals in Pennsylvania, I met a lot of rude canadians. So many that I thought that the stereotype of the polite Canadian was a myth when I heard it latter in life.
swiss, the only country to hold a weapons trial through the entirity of ww2
Your knowledge and the way you present it is fantastic . Thank you for your time and hard work!
Hey! Absolutely love your videos. I am mostly interested in the engineering and design part, than shoot/kill part of weapons. Could you do a couple of videos on various system development? How gas piston developed over time? How trigger mechanisms, bolt types, locking mechanisms, recoil management, etc evolved. Thanks
It would be awesome if you could do a series of videos focusing on weapons trials, with all of the competitors, some range time and just side by side comparisons as as well as history surrounding the process and of course the findings/results.
Perhaps the change to the magazine disconnect was due to the old version negatively affecting the trigger pull? HPs are known for their "meh" triggers (despite being single action, the trigger feel is pretty much ruined by the magazine disconnect). A less-than-perfect trigger might have been unacceptable for the Swiss ;)
The trick is to polish the front face of the magazine... every magazine you have. A different kind of trigger job.
You'll note that the FN GP Competition model moved the magazine safety from the trigger to the frame for much the same reason.
FWIW: I've seen some BHP magazine safeties that were extremely rough internally where its plunger spring is recessed. The spring coils riding over a bunch of rough tool marks does not lend itself to the clean trigger pull. It is such a tiny hole that it makes it hard to polish out the tool marks.
yeah i had the magazine safety removed from my hi power for this very reason. its not necessary on a 1911, and its not necessary on the hi power.
removal of the safety along with a trigger job and having the slide had fitted to the frame. its a literal tack driver now... now i just need some adjustable sights for it.
When I got my Mauser SA80 Hi-power clone, it didn't even come with a magazine disconnect. +1 for a previous owner as far as I'm concerned.
Aside from the trigger, I think prototype #9 also looks like Tokarev TT-33.
or like an early Browning or Colt Design (Because it is somehow)
That makes sense because the TT-33 was...lets say heavily inspired by the Hi Power.
Year it's also a Browning system
Jesse Sisolack The Tokerav predates the Hi-Power by a couple of years...
The TT-33 was mostly inspired by the M1911, however the first Hi-Powers were developed in 1922 (only mass production started in 1935), so it's possible that the TT-33 took some elements from the Hi-Power...
Fun to see what the P210 beat out. The Hi-Power is a good design in its own right but you can see where the various Swiss obsessions made them go for the P210 instead.
Now if I could only actually _afford_ a nice P210...
SIG Sauer in New Hampshire will produce the SIG Sauer P210 in Exeter, N.H. in the United States beginning in 2017. hopefully the prices will come down.
Michael they're gonna be just as accurate as the swiss. How will They be inferior?
Swiss gunsmith vs minimum wage jokel, that´s how. Not even the german made guns are on par with the swiss original. Now they are going to make it in beancounting New Hampshire? Good luck with that one.
sgthl agreed. A lot of Sig USA products crapped when they are praised to high heaven on build quality everywhere else.
My guess for the change in the way the trigger work on pistol no. 40 was to improve the trigger pull. By far the biggest gripe about the Hi Power is its fairly heavy trigger, and the design of the magazine disconnect -- a plunger on the back of the trigger, pressing back against the face of the magazine -- adds just a little bit of weight to the trigger pull. People trying to improve the Hi Power's trigger frequently remove the magazine disconnect, which is chancy in our overly litigious society (removing a safety device, even if it's one most pistols don't have in the first place, has become an issue in a couple of court cases, so a lot of people recommend against this). As Ian said, the Swiss were big proponents of accuracy, and a heavier trigger pull makes accurate shooting harder, so the change in the trigger mechanism was possibly meant to eliminate that plunger's deleterious effect on the trigger pull.
Thanks Ian.
Yea, I asked a Swiss guy one time, what time is it, He's still telling me how to build a clock.
jerryw66 While I was stationed in Schweinfurt, my wife and I took a package trip to Lucerne. We happened to visit a Käeserie and I asked the owner for some Swiss cheese. He took great pleasure in reeducating me: “Dis ist Schvitzerlant! All de Chizz you see is vas made in meine Käezerie unt iss all SCHVISS!” Me: “Yeah well in AMERRIKA where all the money in your SCHVISS banks comes from, we call that Emmentaller with the holes all through it SWISS because none of your other cheeses are interesting enough to be well known. Ich nehme ein viertel kilo of Emmentaler, bitte!”
@@edbecka233 rude
If you see a train in Switzerland that's late, it's either not a Swiss train or it's not a Swiss watch. (Popular saying here in Switzerland).
@@edbecka233 So you went to an artisan shop and told the owner all his products suck and you want the only thing you ever heard of. Rude doesn't really begin to cover it...
Is the titlecard at the start of the video supposed to say Breda PG (Costa Rican)?
+Cain Nope
Forgotten Weapons haha, sorry to call you out Ian! Was just wondering if the Breda might have been an odd variant of the handguns you were talking about. Great stuff as always, even with the odd title card error ;)
damn it i did a doubletake
It looks like they tried to get out of any potential copyright trouble with these changes, removing them more and more from the Browning designs. But they still did not quite get it far enough removed to not have to pay license fees, so they binned this attempt and went with the P47.
Finalmente un canale che fa vedere le bellissimearmi svizzere
Dubito parli italiano però
Excellent, fascinating video Ian. I didn't know this model but it is certainly possible to see the first signs of the P49 with the changes they made to John Browning/Dieudonné Saive's design.
Dieudonné Saive deserves more recognition: he had a hand in the FN FAL an iconic rifle, which I own as well as a Browning HP. All the best, Rob
That was a great video on a cool pistol!
I would almost bet that the thinking behind the 'rough cast" was indeed not a short cut but a 'test' in providing more grip. To get a casting so close to finale size can be tricky and is indeed a test to the casting process. Today this very feature can be seen in many of the tools (ie Crescent Wrench) and has been used (and still is) in many heavy equipment and tractor implements. I think this was a forethought, but not one that would be appreciated compared to a smother machine finish. Thank-You Ian Great comparison.
Makes a lot of sense. Especially if you have to wear heavy winter gloves. Would bite well even on wet leather.
Very interesting. For some reason i've never heard of these. Interesting to see the Swiss take. The first one looks visually like a cross between a P35 and a Tokarev. The one without the slide release seems practical, although it makes administrative handling a little more difficult. I have a 1994 vintage HP Mark 3, bought new right before the onerous mag capacity law, when i was working in a gun shop. It's still one of my favorites. Bone stock except for Hogue cocobolo grips that i put on later. Still one of my favorites, and it was the second auto and 4th or 5th handgun i ever bought. Yes, the trigger could be better, but you don't notice it much once you start shooting. One of these days i may change the sights, but the factory ones are fairly good. A lot of savvy cops carried them in the 70's and early 80's. They were popular in plainclothes work due to their capacity and fairly slender nature. They are also about 7 oz lighter than a full size 1911, despite being all steel. Great video as always. Thank you
Hmm, a Swiss Browning High Power. Cool.
very awesome. they likely changed the magazine safety mechanism because the original design causes the trigger to drag the mag safety across the magazine face during pull. and can be the cause of a gritty and heavy trigger. it might have just been a simplification to keep the safety and improve the trigger slightly?
As I watched you take down the Hi Power, I remembered that you are left handed. That'll help me with my lefty son as he grows up since I am totally right handed. Thanks.
STG44VOLVO - Do you run ambi controls or just whatever's there? I had problems lefty with a non-ambi 1911. I couldn't figure out a way to flip off that safety with my left hand. Other than a manual safety I can run all standadr controls with my left hand.
That last iteration is interesting. As this video didn't include the gas delay mechanism, is there a subsequent video detailing that development? Also, as FN and WF Bern both tackled the task of improving the 1911, and neither one incorporated the trigger yoke, is it somehow inferior to the transfer trigger system, or were there other issues at play? It seems to me that as triggers go, the yoke is the best SA design extant. Am I missing something?
I wonder that the change to the magazine safety disconnect was an attempt to improve the trigger pull.
Is there a video on the Breda PG on the way? Would love to see that!
Yep, there is.
Given the intro slide I guess there's a video on a Costa Rican Breda PG in the works?
I smell the progress of Breda PG video, the gun that i been searching for a long time because so little information about it. Can't wait to see
Hey Ian, how did they get some of the trials pistols while war was going on and some of the countries of the trials pistols were occupied?
(Shoots cheese with Swiss gun) Swiss cheese
I'm pretty sure he meant shooting at cheese with it.
Werner Brüngger the joke was you shoot the cheese with the gun and make Swiss cheese because ya know, bullet holes
FED CONFIRM CONFIRM CONFIRM CONFIRM Q FVZXYJSH FVZXYJSH FVZXYJSH Q
Did anyone else notice the extra pin at the rear of the frame tang on #37 and #40? I wonder if W+F didn't redesign the pistol to use en bloc lockwork like the SIS P210.
Whole new meaning to the phrase "feel the Bern".
I would tend to agree that they are improvements, though I do like an external slide stop/release.
I have an idea as to why they changed the magazine disconnect. On a 'standard' Hi-power, that little plunger has to rub against the front of the magazine as you pull the trigger and if the surfaces are not well polished, it can really mess up your trigger pull. My dad got a .40 S&W Hungarian made Hi-power copy a couple of years ago and it had a horrible, gritty trigger until I figured out that if we polished up the spot on the magazines that contacts the magazine disconnect, it would correct the trigger problem. Polishing that spot mirror-bright was an easy fix, but if we find any more spare mags, we'll need to do it all over again.
im not sure about the FEG's but on hi power's, like mine.. we just remove the magazine disconnect entirely. makes the trigger pull hugely better.
I know that is an option and it's a close enough copy that that would likely work, but it's almost a collector item as it's from (I think) a failed Lithuanian police contract and not too terribly many were made. One interesting thing about it is that it trades the Browning cam slot for a Smith & Wesson style of cam setup as found on S & W's old DA/SA semiauto's like the model 59, otherwise it's a close copy of a Hi-power. It's not really likely to see anything other than target use anyway as I prefer a Ruger GP 100 Match Champion right now and Dad has other things that he'd rather use.
Changing the magazine safety feature probably improved the trigger pull
Remarkable how similar that HiPower mag looks like my CZ's from MecGar. Shows you the lineage.
This is like funky, you can see with every iteration the gun got more and more complex and bulky and was like transforming more into a sig p210 style target pistol from the original Svelte(especially for the time) FN Hi power
You overlooked the change in the triggers.
Did you get one of these from one of the auction houses?
Ian, do you know anything about the Hungarian/FÉG Hi-Power copies?
The Hi-Power is the classic 9mm single action autoloader. Nothing beats it yet imnsho. I've had two and never had a single jam.
The Swiss are big on accuracy period. Look at Zeiss CMM machines. The use of a coil main spring in the hi-power is a big change over M1911 too.
How come haven't seen highpowers in the custom gun market as much as 1911s? Seem like a fantastic platform for modern iterations.
Good question.. But.. I like the way the pistols look.. And an accurized barrel, double stack, and trigger mods.. Would be sweet.
well its probably due to our American fascination with .45... but Cylinder and Slide make some bad ass custom hi powers.
also everyone makes a 1911. but only FN/Browning makes hi powers. and they're not cheap brand new.
Disassembly of #40 looks kind of kooky. Can you field strip this pistol with a round in the chamber?
For some reason I thought that Ruger pioneered casting for gun parts. Obviously casting gun parts has been going on for some time. Maybe there is a video or videos on some of the manufacturing techniques for gun parts and how they have evolved.
When I click on W+F Bern P43: A Swiss Take on the Browning High Power, why does Breda PG come up?
A friend worked on, reloaded for and competed with his Government issued 1911. Guns & Ammo magazine still printed warnings on how unreliable semi-auto handguns were. In 1975 the movie Serpico was released and Browning got a free plug and reminded us of the Hi-Power's high capacity.
Poor Ian, really had SiG on the mind :)
The very first pistol I bought at 21 I lay awayed it and timed the last payment to be the day of my 21st Bday. It was a beautiful Hi Power with ambi safety and FNs Highest grade of polish and blueing. I love these weapons. I think I paid 600 for it some 30 years ago.Though iv had so many pistols over the years I could build a aircraft carrier if all the steel were scraped lol It would be their high grade model. I should of went their standard service finnish. I had it a year and didnt want to holster it and start the wear on the slide. I ran 2 mags through it. But it was just so nice I kept it boxed lol. When I sold it I got my 600 back as the fellow had been wanting one of and other than order it and wait He wanted it now lol. He did get an unused holster with it
Honestly I don't see why every military didn't adopt the Hi Power. Save for the small thumb safety, and sights (which would have been easy to modify for a large military contract) it stands toe to toe with even modern polymer wonder nines today.
I think by the time the Hi-Power came out, everyone had already adopted their pistol and didn't feel like changing again (cost prohibitive). When the war ended, of course they needed to update their arsenals _even less_ because it's peacetime and who needs a better pistol? I dunno, I could be wrong but that makes sense to me.
All that is very true, but the Sig that beat this pistol out was rather nice and modern as well. The only major draw-back of that Sig is it was a single stack, limited round count.
well a lot of armies were still using revolvers around this time. and many were updating when going into ww2 or coming out of ww2 cuz they couldnt afford to during wartime. so i think there are many countries who had the opportunity.
granted the mk1 hi power isnt AS nice as the later models with the external extractor and improved safety lever.
that aside it was still widely adopted around the world. and hugely popular. even among european police agencies too
the slide tail is tokarev
I love the Sig P210 and have a new one on preorder but it's surprising that the Swiss adopted a single stack 9mm over a double stack. The P210 must have run that much better.
i suspect its due to it being a native design more so. that ends up counting for a lot in military contracts.
My wild guess about why they may have altered the mag safety mechanism is that the BHP's can be relatively easily removed. The modification they did might make it more of an integral part of the gun's function. Less chance of someone attempting to disable it on their duty weapon?
As nice as the P210 is these were a more practical design. I am quite fond of the Browning Hi Power and carried one in Afghanistan.
Wonder if any of these pistols ever went to the range after thier prototype service life.
If I absolutely had to have a magazine safety in my pistol, I'd like the one from #40: It looks far less likely to ruin the trigger than the vanilla Hi-Power's method, and it also seems elegant, just like how the Hi-Power's firing mechanism going up through the slide integrally contains an out-of-battery safety. The only problem I can see is that this method might be more fragile, with the transfer piece being on a hinge and being regularly smacked by the magazine instead of being one solid piece safely out of the way, but I don't know that for sure.
On the other hand, the internal-only slide stop seems like a step back. I don't think it's a coincidence that the #40 both only has that teeny internal piece for a slide stop and is the only one of the bunch to have a malfunctioning slide stop, and at the cost of a manual slide release to boot. Still, if the #40 had a traditional slide stop I'd scoop it up in a heartbeat.
nice vid as always prononciaation tip tough dieu don "a" save would be more accurate dieu donné as in french for god given
Browning Hi-Power: One of the first DAO pistols. :P Trigger reset sucks so bad it might as well be DAO.
Anyone else notice that the title card says “Breda PG (Costa Rican)”?
nice
Is this your privet collection or are you overseas?
Does it take Hi Power mags?
Why is the first 3 seconds of the video saying its a Breda PG?
so ah Ian, there was an ad on this video, if the ads are supposed to be turned off, youtube might be skimming here
Did you mean to show the internal slide hold open twice?
Yes, absolutely. I *never* make mistakes.
ah, so the other name of this swiss pistol is the "a Costa Rican Breda PG" :P now I'm curious though Breda guns are rare as heck to find info on
Oh good. That's what I thought.
Sig should return to production of these and market them as - ''Feel the Bern''
Oh Toblerone that Swiss design! Sweet!
I bet this would have been cheaper to produce than P210.
Teppo Kuusisto Kiitosta vaan, nyt iski kauhea himo valkosuklaa tobleroneen.
...and now the Berthier magic is gone with that interruption. ;)
Inside, I see Browning High Power. Outside, I see a touch of Tokarev!
At long last you have found a gun that I don't think I would like to have in my collection! Don't get me wrong, I would love to have a High Power, but never came across one I could bargain for at a gun show, however what the Swiss did to her, while probably making her a better combat pistol simply ruined the sleek lines of the wonderful old handgun. Funny, a buddy of mine had a High Power, and swore by it as being the best pistol for duty carry in the world. He had the front strap stippled for better gripability and said that simple upgrade increased his score at the range. Nice try you fellows with the Swiss accent, but no gold medal for what you did to a fine looking firearm, in an effort to improve on an already perfect pistol
picked mine up on gun broker for like 450. its a mk2 but has the external extractor and larger safety lever. i love it to death.
i dont think what they did to them would make them any better in my opinion. the mechanism is the exact same. only visible difference is the better sights in some of them.
83 like and 13th comment!! Thanks Ian for the AMAZING VIDEOS! You should post more to the other social media!
But why the SIG 210 has a single stack Magazin ?
It has a thinner grip, it's more comfortable to shoot, and easier to shoot accurately.
what is the reasoning behind a magazine safety?
A dollar a month. You cannot beat that.
Wait, wait, wait... They wanted a cheaper gun than the Luger... and their solution was the Sig 210???
The Hi Power was originally intended by Browning to be a 9.8mm, wasn't it?
For some reason whenever the word "pistol" pops up the first thing I think about is a Browning HP '_'
Just want the No. 37 model. No need for further "improvements".
the swiss tried to make a gun cheaper? *gasp*
Wait, they are not Breda PG
Intro Card: "Breda PG (Costa Rican)"
Why so much hate for the hi-power?
Why have magazine safeties in the first place, does it really matter if you can operate the weapon with no magazine fitted?
I would guess it's to guard against people not being cautious enough and assuming the weapon is unloaded just because there's no mag. Obviously, you should pretty much always treat it as loaded, but someone might not think about a round still being chambered.
Who has pistol trials in the middle of a war? The Swiss.
Is it double action?
Blankman 9406 probably not
Blankman 9406 Hi-Powers are single action.
Blankman 9406 No, the transfer bar in the slide doesn't allow for it. You really need a trigger bar pushing back through the frame directly to the hammer to achieve double action, here you have an up/down movement instead which impacts the sear.
I wonder how many changes were made not for any practical purpose but so that they wouldn't get sued by FN.
CAN U DO THE XM29 OICW THE LOOKS WEIRD MAN ITS LIKE AN ABOMINATION AND I JUST REALIZED IM TYPING IN CAPS OR DO THE XM8 AND Y IT NEVER ENTERED SERVICE
Wow, 16-round mag for a 40s pistol
so there all 1 of 1 guns basically
How to take Swiss Steak with a Browning HighPower
I thought TT-33 when I saw number 9
In WW1 Kaiser Wilhelm II asked a Swiss unit what they would do if they were invaded by a German Army twice their size. The Swiss answer, "Shoot twice, and go home".
it's like a tokarev and a high power had a child...
I wonder how much money they wasted in modifications, when they could have just as easily used the P35 in their trials? Maybe it was the National Pride at work?
Isnt it Hi-Power?
Neither Browning nor FN were ever consistent about it. Prior to sometime in the 50s, it was the High Power.
"pistolE" ... the E isn't silent... :)
C'est la Guerre
During WW2, how did the french/polish travel to Switzerland and bring demo/prototype guns?
Did normal civilian/commercial travel still happen? esp from the occupied countries?
As a neutral country commercial travel was still possible to a certain point.
Very sexy pistol I would make love to it also the rogak, AK, valmet, fal, colt commando, FAMAS, g36, mp5, Mauser c96, m44 pistol, mp44, mp40, walther Olympia, luger p08, tokarev, and 1911 colt model
At firs glance, I would have said TT-33.