Unfair vs Unfun Yu-Gi-Oh Design
Vložit
- čas přidán 20. 10. 2023
- From the unbeatable Tearlament to the new Floodgate overlords Kashtira, Yu-Gi-Oh has seen its fair share of insufferable metas. And with Kashtira's arrival to Yu-Gi-Oh Master Duel, why not take a look at what makes our card game fun. Why do Duelists keep coming back? Who should rule the tier lists? And is this new design style the right way for Konami to go?
My mum always said "fun is only when everyone has it" therefor I can safely say floodgates are no fun
I like to say "you only inow if you like a game when you lose at it".
Disagree. Floodgates shouldn’t be turn ending, but they should punish over-specialized deckbuilding.
I’m sorry everybody but if you aren’t running main deck backrow removal when mystic mine existed when will you? You deserve the loss against the deck of you have 0 preparation for it when it’s a known entity.
@@Exisist5151 Literally mystic mine copypasta
@@majickman For the record:
Do I like mystic mine?
No
Have I ever ran mystic mine?
No
Are the games mystic mine creates fun & interesting?
No
What I am saying is that people are so used to now their extra deck and monster effects in good decks that put out a lot of link material being their only way of doing pretty much anything, including backrow removal. So they forego main deck backrow removal cards in favor of just more extenders. And this is greedy deck design that only gets punished by floodgates, that we’ve just accepted is the norm now.
100% right
Choose your poison:
- interactive combo deck that can only be beaten by its mirror or floodgates
Or
- floodgate decks that can only be beaten by drawing the out
Do I chose at the point of activation or resolution?
@@kindlingking at the point of suffering sadge
Suggest playing 2014 format pre pendulums, i remember that being a good format before pendulums killed, set 1 monster and backrow and end my turn.
@@RavensEagle you're thinking of either Edison or Goat
Before pepe we still have Necroz, Dragon Ruler, Spellbook, and Windup
All of those fits into the 2 categories i mentioned
UNinteractive combo deck. They all end on mass negate boards, the only difference is needing more cards/time, but the end result is the same, not letting the opponent play the game. Floodgates have very clear outs; spell and trap removal. Just because you *can* let all your removal be in the extra deck, doesn't mean you should. I'm not advocating for Mystic Mine, but combo needs limitations that aren't "run hand traps and pray you draw enough of them".
Due to their mixtures, my favorite archetype is Shaddolls; they've got El Shaddoll Winda, which needs to be beaten over or non-destruction removed if you want to special summon more than once. Anoyatillis floodgates the hand and GY from S/T effects, but has no innate protection. They have a few negates in their fusions, but they're specific, and need the commitment of choosing to summon those cards when you activate your fusions. My longest turn with my Invoked Shaddoll deck is 2 minutes, and the craziest turn one I ended with was Mechaba, Winda, and a Construct on board, with a Schism prepared. In other words, nothing special. They Kaiju'd my Winda, baited my Mechaba with a destruction effect, and went on their merry way regardless.. Because floodgates are fair and just apply a little puzzle to deckbuilding without forcing hyper specific cards. There's many Kaiju's, many destruction effects. But to break a negate board, you need either DRNM, Droplet, or something else that basically tells the opponent they can't negate you this turn, or else you can't even TRY to break it. And those cards are so few, and tend to also be so high investment, that not everyone can run it, either in their deck or at all. And even if you do end up with one of those, it tends to be played by combo decks yet again.
Eh, I'm done ranting. But my preference between floodgates and negate combo decks, is floodgates. Because slower gameplay is better than no gameplay at all.
I think the main reason why Tear and Kash are unfair AND unfun is because they can put YOUR cards out of comission on turn one. It's like starting the duel with less card than your opponent just because they said so and it's really frustrating.
They then ban them after all the money has been made just in time for a new archetype to take its place and the cycle repeats
try play kash-scarclaw, are funny as fuck and more combo, kash tearla the big problem is tearla need the GY and kash will ban the GY but with kash and some new cards like vicius stralord feel good
Tbf it does solve the issue of turn 1 being broken if both players can play turn 1
The idea that there are archetypes that basically just make it more of a problem to even attempt taking on these decks, like Kashtira and runic which punish you for playing the game, flowandereeze, tearlements, and labrynth taking up more time in a duel than need be, and now with snake eyes and other archetypes it has created this situation where you basically have to run those decks to have some chance of competing. Consistency and recursion of resources, all these decks I’ve listed can do this without much interruption and that in my opinion is very unhealthy for the game. If they had more restrictions for what they could do in a single turn then maybe I’d say something different but its Yugioh at the end of the day and Konami will just keep creating more and more absurd power creep for more money.
Why does Kash banish facedown? Other than Konami wanted them banned eventually?
Unfair _can_ be fun, but it's also bullsh*t any time there's a considerable mismatch, such as Tear vs anything else that isn't a direct counter, and in such matchups it can be very easy to see like 2 cards played in a duel and already know who the hydrogen bomb is and who the coughing baby is, which is where it crosses into unfun. Unfun from across the table just sucks to even be there for regardless of how well the duel works out for you, it's only a matter of to what extent it feels like your soul was dragged across a lathe.
A mismatch CAN be fun on occasion. In a well-balanced game, there's an undeniable thrill to seeing, or even executing a rare FTK or complete lockout. But when decks are designed to do that on the regular, it looses that thrill and just becomes routine.
Coughing baby is a goated archetype tho
In terms of the things it actually did, tear genuinely wasn't bad. It wasnt like gumblar loops or pend ftk, where the actual fundamental end goals of the deck were cancer. Tear was just WAY overtuned, especially after the ishizu cards. It was like a combo deck from 5 years in the future just got dropped into the tcg and we all had to deal with it. It felt like a full power pepe deck in an Edison tournament.
Can't time just go faster already this future absolutely rules
No, man, Tear, even though it's a fun deck, was pretty toxic because of the Ishizu cards. Those should have never been printed at all
You're not wrong. And oddly, I think Kash is most unfun not because of it's locks on zones, but because it banishes face down.
How you can say a deck that can interrupt your opponent and make them minus 1+, and in the same time you can get up to 4+ advantages after you make your opponent minus, a "wasn't bad" design?
.
People really like to say "Tear is okay" but never explain why the design is "okay".
@@renaldyhaenthey literally explained how tear was okay
A friendly reminder that the Tearlaments archetype has more negates than the Kashtira archetype
Tear even has a omni negate
MACRO COSMOS ON LEGS
I can have fun in two unfair situations, one of which applies to both winning and losing: Topdeck battles. Win or lose, it's hella fun seeing who can tap into the heart of the cards first and pull through in an awkward game state.
Tear was a deck designed around trying to do a bit of everything around the concept of interaction. But as you said, it just had way too many points of interaction that it was unfair. Every card just about is a starter, you could play turn zero with a good havnis mill. The ishizu retrains feel like a mistake in deaign by themselves with tear being the next archtype to follow. Kashtira would actually look a bit better if they released at the same time though, because tear struggled to slot hand traps or non archtype interaction meaning an eatablished Ariseheart usually ment scoop phase cause that tasty GY is gone.
And this isnt even considering were at the same time in thrust meta, q card that by itself juat says out your opponent if they did a monster effect on your turn and have a monster. So now you only need to slot maybe 3 real boars breakers with three thrust and save on deck space while having both going first and second tools at your disposal.
actually, during testing. many pro players said kash couldn't beat tear. from what i saw wehn going second kash just loses outright. abd goiing first kekbeck, havnis and orange light are insanely good vs kash (not to mention kash bricks alot in it's own right). kash honestly doesn't have a chance vs tear even without taking into account "tearalament kashtira" being playable in tear and being another way to play on turn zero. in my opinion kash floodgating most decks and losing to tear would have made tear more dominant( tho kash would prob see more representation than other decks bc pple wouldn't be siding against it as much)
OCG had kash and tear at full power together for a short while. All kash did was replacing floo and exo as the best "anti-meta" option. Meanwhile, tear themselves adopted kash engine which pushed their ceiling even higher.
Tear not struggle to put ht. The reason they have minimum ht in master duel because they semi limit all name in masterduel and limit field. At full power they even play 3 Bystial to counter other tear or just another 3 orange light. Maybe less in ocg because max c. ofcourse no ash since that card less impact.
Yugioh can be called a lot of things, “fair” ain’t one of them.
I think the main that would even make me feel that Tear is unfair is that it has so few bad matchups whereas playing random duel with a deck to beat only Tear would mean my deck now has holes in it versus any of the other fun decks to play. Also really like your work!
The fact of the matter is that the game feels unfair regardless of the meta. You either go against the meta and get bullied by meta players or you play the meta and still get your ass kicked because your open pulled an instant board clearing card out of their ass like kaiju, dark ruler no more, or evenly matched. The only choice you get to make in either situation is whether you want to lose due to your own stubborn decisions or lose due to complete random luck. Additionally, the point about archetypes, even kastira, having various weaknesses is moot because first, you need to make sure you run a deck that is capable of exploiting those specific weaknesses, and second, most high level players include various supplementary engines into their decks design specifically to counter their decks weaknesses. This game is upsetting rigid to the point where the outcome of the game has already decided by deck match up and starting hands, and giving konami credit for banning FTK cards is setting the bar way too low in terms of balancing given all the other broken combos and mechanics they allow and encourage
Im on the verge of quitting masterduel because it's gotten so boring and unfun. They also added 2 extremely bad decks recently: Mikanko and Purrely. Both decks got no reason to exist at all.
@@-schattenpflanze-3755 you really should. i can't speak on behalf of edison format since MD has been my only yugioh experience, but that aside, yugioh is a game of bullying where the only way to have fun is by not being on the receiving end, and there's no real plausible way to make the game more focused on strategy and creativity when so much of it is dedicated to setting up negates and floodgates to leave your opponent helpless and straight up unable to play the game
@@-schattenpflanze-3755just quit.
Trust me, it's better for your mental state, Master Duel is in a terminal cancer state.
Always the same 3-4 decks: purrely, Kash, Tear and then the outlier that created the full board of negates as always.
@@calibula95Tear is not even strong. It's relegated to a small engine status. Pure tear is trash.
@@myoblivion420Ban every tear card 😊
Yugioh is only fun when the duel is a back and forth, and you don't lose on your first turn. That's why as you said, tear isn't unfun, because when both players are playing tear both sides are interacting with each others cards, there's no "you can't play that" card (other than handtraps and dweller, but tbf those are problems on their own)
Yugioh used to be fun when the game lasted 20 minutes not each turn lasted 20 minutes
@@moebino2685Now each turn last 20 min and there’s usually only 2 turns lmao . How any can find the current state of yu gi oh fun is beyond me
@@moebino2685each turn 20 minutes I always asked myself how and against who are you playing and if it’s online why aren’t you immediately scooping?🤦🏾♂️😂
@@maniachd324 I already scooped from the game itself don't worry xD, imagine playing a videogame and surrendering on the first turn or minute and think the game is good that way, the fact you suggested leaving or surrendering says a lot about the state of the game 🫤
@@moebino2685No such turn takes that long. If that were the case every tournament in modern ygo would be won by time out. This is a falicy.
Most online simulators have time limits. Those that don't such as EdoPro are a minority
Old school ygo duels do not last 20 minutes unless both players brick or playing terrible decks. Saying otherwise is a lie.
This proves you don't play ygo beyond 2004 playground
For me the problem with md is that it doesnt reward casual play. All multiplayer game have casual and ranked and they both reward you; master duel doesnt. So if you want to play casual you either play the “casual” gamemode and win nothing or play ranked and not have fun. If they just let you earn reward in casual(less gems idk) it would actually make the game more accesible and fun
I wish MD did give rewards for casual as well but, sadly, bots ruin everything. If you could earn rewards from casual it would become bot infested over night like it did with Duel Links.
Also the "casual" queue is full of tier 1 decks
Make solo more rewarding to encourage players to get better.
I was debating swapping back to duelist legacy to play my odd eyes deck but that game doesn't have the newest support.
I'm not sure how it would look on the programming side, but with SP challenge one and two gate, all they really need to add is the duelist score rewards we get from online modes.
The worst part for any game with a ranked and casual mode is that it always ends the same:
"Casual is just Ranked without consequences."
So there isn't actually a difference and there can't be a proper casual mode. That's where stuff like Solo modes, custom banlists, alternate formats and giving actual rewards for playing everything in the game would help.
seeing the Act Man show up in random Yu-Gi-Oh videos like some kind of bigfoot is the funniest thing ever to me and I hope it never stops
Decks nowadays have to be broken to be considered “playable” so the game isn’t exactly fun for most people nowadays. Even these people who say they love the tear format think it’s not fun. The game was never really balanced in the first place but it only got worse from there. I have a lot more complaints,about Konami,the community and the game itself but I won’t bother with typing a wall of text for all of that.
worse is, even when your deck is broken, it'll still consider as unplayable if it's not as broken as the meta decks... my harpie deck for example, it can shut down deck with infinite negate, it can board wipe, it have floodgate, it can even OTK, but it's still consider as unplayable low tier deck... that is just sad.
@@zerocalvin At the very least,it’s considered a rouge deck but with tear format,might not be considered one anymore. And I always fucking hate this whole thing of,if it’s not completely viable competitively,then it’s not “playable”. I also hate how obsessive most of the community is when it comes to the competitive scene. Caring more about winning then usually anything else at times.
Konami has gone full retard for the past 5 years non stop
Qliphorts are more fun than this
@@zerocalvin While there are people who downplay decks, I believe a lot of people consider a deck's playability pretty fairly. Like a lot of people consider the link 1 genex support make genex playable despite being bad going second.
Side note: talking about a deck's strength without talking about its weakness doesn't show how good a deck is. Example: My FTK deck can FTK.
@@vipersniperpiper6093 I only have 3 reasons for playing meta decks. One is obvious, tryhards want to win with any costs, and the best way to do it is by playing meta.
Two, you really like a certain archteype or you want to try to play it, and coincidentally it's a meta deck
Three, money. In my locals (and lots of locals I think), The winners gets more packs so higher chance to get a good card that sells, with the lower ranked ones only get a single pack
Wow I literally just found your channel and you just uploaded! I personally find interaction to be the most fun of any multiplayer game. People who play Call of duty to camp or play Yu-Gi-Oh to do a crazy combo that stops your opponent from playing spoil the fun for me. It's the same thing as if I'm much more skilled than my opponent or vice versa. Challenge is what makes things fun and challenge comes from interaction
I'd like to add that I find making an effect fizzle in yugioh satisfying.
it's all fun and games until Kashtira pulls the Mushroom Man #2 🗿
Tear looks like such a fun game design! It's a shame that
- I'm much too stupid and inattentive to pilot it
- It's so much stronger than everything else
Thanks Sanae for the intelligente sight
At least the 2nd point is no longer an issue, since it's been nerfed to kingdom come
@@sanstheskeleton679 yep, i love the current format
I think you forgot that tearlameants would run cyber stein or shadoll winda as WELL as abyss dweller.
Most of my games against tear in MD on turn one ended in some variation of
c stein, Barkion, spright elf, abyss dweller/winda Rulkal and both backrow, with immediate access in MP1 to fuse into almost anything (elf into merrli +sulliek on first summon) plus merrli mill 3 could hit more.
I’m not unconvinced that MD players don’t actually enjoy ygo.
master duel isn't an accurate representation of tear, tear in md didn't have access to bystials like the tcg/ocg did which solved most floodgates like dweller / winda, it was also nerfed on release so it was an inconsistent sacky mess because of the limits, making the rng factor of the deck skyrocket, in tcg both players almost always had access to a shuffler and a bystial, as well as multiple milling opportunities every turn making it very interactive and forcing you to think when to use each effect, you had 2-3 combo routes. and you had to be aware of your opponent's hand or gy every turn. where as in master duel, it was an uninteractive sack fest/ click yes turbo deck for the most part because of the early limits, it bricked alot, and the absence of 6 to 12 (depending on the build) interaction cards (bystials) meant you get way less agency in a duel and get to just lose to a floodgate like dweller or winda
This is a somewhat accurate representation of Tear in MD ladders though. Cyber-Stein Exterio (existed for 1 month), Winda, Dark Law were kinda bad in the mirror but saw a lot of play in ladders. People in MD ranked just liked to win games faster.
@@HoangNguyen-ej4wb this defo feels like more of an argument against md more so than tear tho, but yea i agree. i played the format too, and although i feel like cards like winda and exterio were "win more" that required you to play bricks to work making the deck worse(imo), when they went off they made the format even less interactive and fun. i swear we were robbed of the best format master duel had to offer so far because konami balancers don't play their own game
@@poopoo7107 if you think the best game was tear mirror that might be true but not everyone wanted to play tear mirror, i particularly liked tear, kash and runick, and i missed the tear meta format, but i'm pretty sure being locked to play only tear vs tear would have sucked a lot, they limited a lot of tear cards to bring then down closer to other decks, they failed but their objective was to nerf tear enough to not create a tier 0 format and i don't blame then for trying to rein down tear when the deck was a menace in both world and japan meta games
The sheer power creep and ridiculously broken design of a few archetypes favoured by Konami is what turned me off from Master Duel. It doesn't let you play the decks you want to play, it actively punishes you for doing so. What kind of game does that?
I'm not defending konami or anything, but does't exist a single tcg gsme, that all decks can compete, the only ones that como close to it are rotation formats, but even in them about 50% of the availeble card are usable max, 30 ~ 20% normally
A lot of games as it turns out. Anything with a competitive side will have stronger and weaker tools, and sometimes the disparity can be colossal. It's not pretty but in an asymmetrical game there always has to be something stronger and something weaker.
Name one game that is competitive and rewards you for playing literally any strategy available.
This is literally every card game.
Clash royale
Keep up the good work man. Your content is interesting and so well put together. Cheers 👏👏
Just to add some context: DD Dynamite was an FTK simple enough to be performed by a bot, which lead to otk bots ALL OVER the ladder. The card was banned in order to make botting harder
So basically, a guide to design meta deck only has one sentence:
"Make an archetype that can do unfair and unfun bullsh*t with consistency and high price*
tears shows the need for multiple formats. tears mirrors were fun (if repetive) due to it being an everybodys turn at once kind of game but it needs all decks to be able to be an unstoppable or unmoveable object. tears being in a high powerlevel format would solve the issue of reptition and poeple who want more discint turns.
Tears enabled my NemesysemeN deck before Kashtira dropped on Master Duel
If all decks are broken no deck is
And also theres other problem the old decks, like how much time takes Konami in make support for old decks, and even so how many cards do You need to make idk aliens be tear0lament level? And even with pure new stuff the powercreep is real so making every card broken is just a thing of time that Even more broken cards Will be around and people Will complain, me included
@@changeling6450 the main problem that extra support does solve is the issue of making sweeping changes to how the game is played. the companion mechanic is a good example of changes not fitting in a general set of rules
Tear mirrors maybe could be fun in the tcg
But with master duel the mirror is solved now
I feel like saying the weakness to a towers being a Kaiju is like saying the weakness of a super soldier is dropping a nuke on him
Seeing Genex Controller pop up in the tier list just made me laugh my ass off
Nothing more fun than playing Tearlaments.
Nothing less fun than playing Against Tearlaments.
very entertaining. i am watching some of ur past videos. u, sir, have gotten a subscriber.
Someone mentioned this and I thought it was very fascinating to hear.
That Tearlaments would have been fine... even somewhat revolutionary for the state of yugioh... if other decks could do what Tearlaments could do on a similar level. That is saying going first didn't win you most of the games, and actual sequences of interaction with the other player instead of watching monologues, do what the game is meant to do which is to have both players play the game.
The issue is that only Tearlaments can currently do this, and it itself is not fun to play nor play against, so its the most unfair thing instead. Arguably you'd have to imagine this being somewhat better than the Exchange of Spirit meta where the coin toss of who goes first determined the games outcome.
No amount of meta changes can fix the foundational problems Yu-Gi-Oh is built upon.
I believe the last time I had actual fun playing this game was in HAT format.
What are some foundational issues with the game?
1) If you don't already know both decks inside and out then its impossible to understand a game state by looking at the game state. Most cards just exist to get other cards. And even if they do exist for their own sake, they are likely a wall of text and create hidden condition such as locking you into a summoning type. This is why people don't like playing against rogue decks and why new players find YGO unapproachable.
2) Powercreep has risen to the point that most games are blowouts. Either player 1 locks player 2 out of the game. Or player 2 blows up player 1s board with very little that they could do about it. Because the game is so fast you don't really have any option to hedge your plays. You try full combo because you will not get a 2nd shot. One does not play around Nibiru, they either have a combo that is safe from it or a combo that isn't safe from it. The same could be said for most board breakers.
3) IMHO the pacing of the game is awful. In most 20 min games someone makes a move than the other person makes a move and your moves are spread mostly evenly over the course of the game. I know many players of MD who just do something else during the opponents turn. I've certainly sat through games trying to care about my opponent combing knowing full well it didn't matter what they summoned it was going to be turned into a Sphere Mode.
Duellist Alliance was way better
As a gamer the fun aspect comes from finding combos and playing nobody thinks of which is great.
A middle ground between Unfun and Unfair is hard for Modern Yugioh design. However, A meta deck that can lose to any deck (meaning You'll always have a chance to Beat it even a Rogue or Blue-eyes players) while still having the back-and-forth resource advantage to contend with the best is always Gold Design.
I think they should focus in strong VS the weakness of meta (few spell trap destroy a.k.a Mystic mine, but better design to not be pure floodgates) while being vulnerable to Casual (Beatdown Battlephase, Simple Destroy like Mirror force- Raigeki, Flip facedown, Spell trap removal) .Example is the design of Kashtira with battle protection 🎉
Unfair vs. Unfun. In unfun I am basically not playing the game. I have no hope to compete and everyone knows it. Worse, I'm not even capable of doing *anything*. My combos get negated, my spells and traps destroyed before used and my monsters are so weak they may as well not exist. I may as well not have dueled at all. But in unfair things may be powerful and potent but I'm still capable of DOING things and fighting back. Using your RTS analogy, I can make an impegnable defense, but my opponent can still at least consider rolling out a treb to knock down my castle walls. I still got options. I still got things I can do. I can still fight back. It's not that I'm fighting God that's the problem (well, it IS, but it's not the problem here), it's that I'm fighting him and I got no way to realistically win.
The second main issue... Is duel time.
Yes that may sound silly, but most people remember the duels they played in.
Tears was the worst offender as there are videos where you have someone stuck waiting ten minutes for the enemy turn to end... Just for the enemy to spend another ten minutes during YOUR TURN.
All because you didn't draw the one card you needed on your first turn... Or had it countered by the enemy.
Kash suffers from a different problem, but an easier to manage problem. While the effects are annoying there are a whole lot more counters that can stop or break it.
The issue is when the wall is built and you realise you lack a counter.
That is where a lot of the newer toxic decks filter into.
All UR cards so only the wales or those who got really lucky got all the cards... With everyone else smashing their face against a wall waiting for the latest brand of toxic to end their turn.
Yugioh at its best is when both players swing at one another trying to beat the other.
Yugioh at its worst is watching one person play by themselves and then chuckle when they pet you crash into their board and lose.
I honestly think the solution to the whole fun debate is the tearlaments, but not in the tear zero sense but almost all strategies to be on a similar power level (they would obviously have to have their own identity, strengths, weaknesses and all that), I mean think about it the tears at their peek were so powerful that almost no floodgates were enough to slow them down for more than a turn at best and the gameplay was flashy and fast-paced but also let the other players interact on both players turns and gain advantage off of activations like the millers which made decision making in the mirror an incredibly skill testing experience, if we had a format of 5 or more not even ishizu tear level decks that adhered to the same design principles of the tearlaments (non-oppressive interaction, flashy turns, both players being able to interact on eachothers turns to an extent, and skill testing decision making to name a few) the format would be a diverse meta that rewards skilled players and made duels exciting for both players at the table.
So make turn 0 a thing for more decks ? Sign me up. I think it would be better to make semi-generic "turn 0" cards to cover more decks without printing 1000 cards.
No, that's a horrible fucking idea and the main reason this game is such a dumpster fire as it is. At what point is power creep too much for you? Because if we embrace Tear's power level, then that only enables Konami to go even further and make decks even stronger than that, making even casual play with slightly weaker decks near impossible, let alone anything below Tier 2 or Rogue.
If anything this game needs to go in the opposite direction. Tearlaments were a mistake that should not be replicated by any means.
tear mirror was pretty nice, until you faced someone who hard drew mask change II and made it just a one-sided game. Where it's basically an ftk.
@@felixdaniels37 I can see where your coming from but in the past power creep was more represented as "build the biggest monster combo bourd" style of gameplay like adimancipator or the gumblar loops but tears playstyle is almost entirely different, sure it's extremely robust and consistent and puts up a strong bourd but at no point are you fully out of the game (with the exact exception of abyss dweller esc effects) you always have a chance to break the bourd due to the immense power of tear and I think that kind of gameplay is very rewarding to skilled pilots
Ah yes, if every deck is OP, then no decks are OP. Imagine seeing a Volcanic vs Yazing duel but both decks are on the power level of Tear. I would pay money to see that
I don't really like the unfun vs unfair categorization. During tear 0 I often saw people say things like "tear is fun, interactive, and skill intensive. The format is good actually." The missing qualifier being "tear mirror matches" are those things. Try bringing literally any other deck besides tear and the match very quickly stops being fun, interactive, or skill intensive. As someone who doesn't like playing endless mirrors generally and wasn't a big fan of playing tears specifically I found the kash format 100x more fun than the tear 0 meta.
Also, don't give Konami too much credit. Remember how for months they hit everything around tears in the TCG to avoid touching them or the ishizu cards? Even brought back graveyard floodgates to avoid hurting sales. They did a trash job in OCG and TCG and let tears ride for far longer than was reasonable.
So you are suggesting they should be massacred since first banlist until they become tier 2? Is that agenda i am sensing?
Honestly now i only see dogmatika amd kashitra in dueling nexus in my opinion ygo was far better in synchro era and at beggining of xyz era(before draglubion and some utopia or galaxy supports)cuz varyability in decks was big like most of archetypes were used
@@MihajloNastic Try Dueling Book, now that both Kash and Tear have been heavily reigned in, the TCG is the most versatile and viable it's been a while to play any deck. Me personally, I've been playing Adventure Synchrons, Supreme King Pends and Unchained recently
@@darethepolarbear5647 i tried it too but ppl were mostly playing those decks too after 10 duels against same decks i got bored and gone for roblox ygo with casual decks
@@darethepolarbear5647 but i will try again anyway thx for advicce
I was scared of kashtira but the only time I got all 10 zones locked was before diablosis was banned and it only happend once. I’m more annoyed by getting my one if’s banished from the top of my deck than anything else.
I think konami had decided that archetype that can start spamming,stun and otk will be the "competitive" Yu-Gi-Oh and they're trying to balance the game with this 3 things in mind which is very odd since Yu-Gi-Oh is supposed to be a turn base card battle game.
But i guess it's alright since spamming,stun and otk "strategies" beat each other out so it's balance i guess 😅.
Don’t think I was ever expecting the Dodoco event music to play outside of the event lol. Good video though. The summon thing for Elden Ring definitely struck me but it does help with pacing of the game for me. Feel like its extremely justified to use an ash during a double boss fight though
What did you edit this video in? Just curious.
I have very little editing knowledge, but I feel like I should ask regardless because it’s very clean.
Floodgate decks are the “tragedy is when I stub my toe; comedy is when you fall down a manhole and die” of YGO.
aren't flood gates just combo build-a-board negates with less steps? The worst experience for me is waiting forever for an opponent to mass-build a board, at least with a flood gate they can save me time sitting around waitig
@@hyoroemongaming569 depends on who you ask. I tend to hate floodgates and enjoy combo for a few reasons.
For one, I’d argue the big difference is in volume. Typically, outside monsters like VFD or Rhongo, build-a-boards end on a finite number of negates. On average, a modern board ends on 3 points of interaction. Meaning it’s possible, however difficult, to power through them and play the game.
Floodgates represent infinite disruption. If you flip up anti-spell, all spells are dead. Whether your opponent has one in hand or 30. The only counterplay or ability to play through comes from happening to open the one out to the floodgate.
Combos are also fragile and able to be interacted with. A single well-placed imperm can lead to a board with but one negate. By contrast, floodgates have none of that interaction. You draw them, you set them, you pass turn.
What rts is that?
I was A kashtira player; the lack of negates forced you to play considering outs, causing players to use unique variations to the threat they think they might face.
Tearlement showed us what the game could be.
so underrated considering your editing skills
Too much Interaction vs Too Restrictive/limiting Interaction
Can I have the actual spreadsheet for that DDD combo
As someone who has a background in fighting games, when I got back to Master duel early this year, and I know it's a stretch, I legit liked how to play Tearlaments, and kept playing them not caring if people called me a meta slave. I genuinelyt like the Archetype and play in a way i feel comfortable with regarding Fusions. Up until them, if I played a Fusion oriented Deck, I preferred it to be Contact Fusion oriented.
So if something you like happens to be a Tier 1 or zero Deck is like, sweet but I don't think too much about it. I like characters who at one point were bottom tier so I do know what it feels.
Hey, don't take the whole "meta sheep" nonsense. I've played both meta and rogue and I found meta decks like Tearlament are just often harder to play. So honestly, I respect meta players... *except when the meta is stun oriented*
Nothing to feel bad about. And Tear's have some beautiful art as well. It's not a you problem. It's a Konami problem. And the game has progressed so far that I don't think there's a way to fix it.
Yep. If a deck you really like happens to be meta. Take that advantage and have a blast. It'll be the most playable moment of that deck's time That privilege doesnt last forever and it doesnt exactly happen for everyone. I love Sky Striker, Metalfoes, and Chaos Dragons when those used to be meta. Currently love RAce. Others shouldn't dictate your choices.
Ishizu cards came to masterduel before tearlaments cards , before you rebuke telling in TCG it was the other way around you were talking deeply about MD context by that part of the video.
I really cannot say i agree with your points, I don't understand why are people unhappy with kashtira being actually beatable?, isn't it a good thing that the deck has consistency issues in MD and you can actually play your favourite decks with the right tech? I feel full power tearlaments Meta which allowed only tear, and a few decks that could play against it namely floo and exosister to exist and rest were kicked out was way worse of a format
He wasn't saying that it being beatable is the problem, but that winning or losing against Kash is a non-game
Either you don't have the out and you lose on the spot, or you have the out and kadh gets folded, even against other competent decks.
I hate tear as well, but I'm not gonna pretend that tear mirrors aren't objectively really interactive and intense.
The whole point of the video is that both of these decks are at completely opposite ends of what makes a format controversial or disliked usually
@@magiv7573 and I am saying that MD made sure kashtira isn't as oppressive and consistent it was in TCG where one or two interruptions weren't enough and you just needed to draw the out, but they made kashtira bad and inconsistent so they can be stopped a lot more as you have more options to deal with them and the so called draw the out is significantly reduced in MD, why are people specially pissed at kashtira being bad in MD? Do they want an oppressive format where kash players always reach the ariseheart and you are forced to draw the out?
Rn In MD, there are several outs to most kash plays, like the only way to activate the alternative condition for ariseheart is by activating riseheart with a Shangri on field, but if you negate the riseheart with an imperm or veiler they are forced to be end on just Shangri pass, if you ash theosis they mostly don't have any plays unless they hard draw scareclaw or riseheart or birth and make a Shangri pass, the kash of MD is much more fair, why are people salty that's it's fair? Wtf
that has nothing to do with the video though???
the video said kash is fair
the focus of kash was it being UNFUN
it is not fun to insta win or lose depending on having the out or not, even if its more fair@@vivanmaurya
the point being made with kash is the same regardless of its tier status, and that was even acknowledged when the video mentions that there are many UNFUN decks that could be said to be FAIR because they suck and are easily countered.
the salt isn't that kash is worse, its that kash still just sucks to play against, and some people misinterpreted why people dreaded kash in tcg.
@@magiv7573 no, he specially mentioned that kash is worse than people hyped it for and people are angry at that, all my previous arguments still stand
Imo, tear and i mean just the tear cards are completely fine.
It was the ishizus the made it so much stronger.
But kitkallos at 1 is still a good idea
Tear without Ishizu could still bullshit you into oblivion, but would need really lucky mills. So extra mills would make the bullshit more common. Tear, by being a deck that relies on milling, is meant to not be very consistent.
Well, when life gives you lemons, you negate it.
i wouldn't care about kashtira but somethings just have the cherry on top
did they really need a floodgate?
the spell thats summons from gy or banish really needs that second effect?
Honestly, getting handlooped by Dark World and start with literally zero hand cards is … unfun. You can just surrender
And because of these two designs of decks, I completely scooped and decided to play a different game. Digimon regardless of power creep still lets you actually play the game.
I play physical only and mostly galaxy eyes, dark magician, and cyber dragon. I like the modular builds that are easy to plan for, though I play in as pure a form as I can. It's fun and my friends have never gotten upset about it
Bruh Tearlaments made it's own fucking tier
Tier 0 was brought just to put tearlaments in
Dark law is such a good friend back then, now plasma is your best friend in kashtira era
Hero bois rise up 😎🤙
Another Banger from KeyYGO, you will absolutely get my vote for best newcomer.
I’ve been thinking of going into yugioh for a while now with orcusts, and shaddolls, even the qli, but it just seems so daunting that if I DONT play the meta, I’m instantly screwed without even a chance to fight back
as a qli enjoyer, if you lose the coin toss, dont have floodgates, or fail to turbo out towers or skybase... you lose
@@toazzy9336 you don’t even get a chance to recover? You just loose?
@@Beepers559 well with labyrinth anyway, theyll pop a card from your hand then trap hole your summons by turn 2, regardless of who went first
@@Beepers559 you got a good chance against the rest if you go first or have an interrupt
@@toazzy9336 I see
"i just want to queue up with runick stun" yup that tracks
1. The problem is that decks like Tearlaments are given ridicilously overtuned cards that leave previous ones in the dust.
The best way to fix this would be to simply give other, older, archetypes cards of a similar power level to bakance things out, but for some reasom they don't really seem to be doing that, or at least not as much as they should.
2. This sh!t is why I play the game *super casually* , either with friends or on lower ranks where people use more casual strategies. The game basically *punishes* you if you're not using a meta deck, there's no room for actually having fun and experimenting past a certain point.
This video is definitely gonna blow up
On one hand it was great how powerful tear was because it didnt just immediately lose of your opponent drew kaiju/darl ruler/evenly. It's just that it was the only one that did that. If it had come out with maybe a couple more archetypes like it to compete with it, people might have emjoyed it more
Pretty nuch the entire Visas lore decks revolved around this philosophy, something I could never understand
The thumbnail game is PEAK!
Kashtira and Tearlaments are so very opposite.
One at least lets you pretend you can win, or ar least usually lets you play a bit. And the other either wins the game before the first turn, or punishes you for playing AT ALL.
Out of the two of them, i prefer going up against Tear, because at least im not getting floodgated and being prevented from playing in the first place.
The floodgate turbo one is way easier to beat however
@@Honest_Mids_Masher easier to beat, sure.
It is never even remotely fun though.
@@NexusSpacey Fair point
Flower Cardian enjoyer here.
Thank you for the shoutout. ♥
I just wanna run my dragonmaids and have fun but noone ever goes easy
You can still do it. Just gotta mix some Bystials or Rokket sauce in it!
@@kuma9239 I respect that, but honestly the thing is I dont like disrespecting my opponents time. Its why I run archetypes that use very few card inputs, like dragonmaids, mikankos, the like.
I also have not looked into Rokkets, Ive had to face them multple times, I guess I could check them out. I have no idea what the bystials are tho
That's great and all, but they won't respect yours. And that can be frustrating.
@qzmicronsr9067 yeah, I've hated dealing with kashtiras and purrely. I've gotten better at the game but at the end of the day, I just want to face someone that respects my time and my cards. A duel that makes me feel alive. I once faced someone who was running a relinquished/kaiju deck. That was a phenomenal fight...
Funnily enough during full power tear format on master duel, I actually had a positive win rate against tear with ancient warriors of all things, how? no clue, I just barely had enough gas to beat over their guys and that somehow did the trick
As a former Yugioh player that switched to Magic years ago Yugioh has easily the weirdest community. I've dabbled in a lot of card games and nowhere have I ever seen people defend a tier 0 format. "The mirror is fun and takes skill." If the mirror is the only match up something went very wrong.
Yugioh players also just hate playing answers, for some reason. If you know your deck loses to a flood gate that sees play you put answers to it in your deck. That shouldn't be rocket science.
We don't hate "playing answers", we just straight up can't. With how insane turn 1 can be, you need your first 5 cards to have an immediate impact to the game. This means that you can't just run answers to everything, because having a dead card in hand going second is a big ouch. Picking the most popular decks in the format and running specific outs to those decks is the most optimal solution.
This is why some competitive players hate diverse formats: they can't play the answers to every viable deck and at that point it becomes a pick your poison game.
If the game was slower, then yeah, running the answers to cover your deck's weak point would be viable. As it stands though, going second is THE biggest weak point. Doesn't matter how good your engine is, you ain't playing into a full uninterrupted turn 1 board.
Who would've thought the "boomer complaints" actually had a point all along...
Never forget that there are cards that were made to support tearlament + kashtira decks.
i think i’d have to fist fight someone if they used tearlaments irl
Tell me you never played anything competitively without telling me you never played anything competitively
@@LEGOdewd bro i played yugioh/pokemon tcg from ages 6-13 😭 tearlaments doesn’t even let you play your turn
their parents already tear and lament for what they created 😂
@@LEGOdewd Me when I hate casual players for no reason:
@@LEGOdewd 0:26
Modern yugioh has too many decks that made my decks almost unfunctional:
- Trickstars
- Runicks
- weird other cards that
The problem with floodgates is that you need to adapt you deck to them, you can't just add Macro Cosmos to any deck, only those based on banishing.
Now, Kashtira has a "Macro Cosmos" in the archetype and, to top it all off, combos with it.
Ishizu Tearlament was immune to everything except floodgates (Dweller, Shifter) and not only that, it has the most laziest mechanic of all: milling.
As the one cardian fan I feel appreciated thank you :)
Me and my timelord deck watching my opponent do fancy tricks, knowing full well the bombastic turn I'm about to show them.
I miss bad reaction :( that was so fun. But it is way to slow to hold up today. If they come out with some new support for it 100000% I will be playing that. It was my first deck ever.
I am just happy that I can scoop and go next withouth spending $200+ in masterduel😅
Bro I played against a tear player. I went first and they negated one of my effects with the orange fair thing, then managed to combo off of that discard ti summon shadoll winda and their monster that can negate an effect that would special summon. What deck Inherently even can compete with that? It's like there's no coinflip, going first or second the deck can lock you out before you can play
That's what's outrageous
I remember being gatekept from silver league one time because I was playing InfiniTrain and someone used some cards that wouldn't let me play the game. I forgot what those cards were but if I ever see them again I'm surrendering first turn.
I think, for Master Duel at least, the problem rn is that the Meta decks get too diverse in how they work to consustently improve your deck against them.
While Called by or Ash can be absolute gamechangers in Tearlements or Lab, they are borderline useless bricks against kash or mikanko.
This results, at least for me, in feeling absolutely powerless when it comes to deckbuilding in a BO1 format, since there is no clear middle ground decision I can make to get my overall consistency up in the modern meta.
It's always "am I willing to get absolutely rolled by Lab or by Kashtira this time" in my mind when I edit my deckprofile rn.
That's the draw back of BO 1 if this BO 3 people can win even back when the Alfa tribute benten format still exists just because sideboards exist.
@@vo1ce147
Of course BO1 amplifies the issue, but just 1-2 months back against Dragonlink, Tearlament, Branded and Bystial engines, Ashe and Called by were so big staples that they worked against any of them.
There was a clear anchor you can build your deck around, Rogue or not, to improve your consistency, despite it being BO1.
Rn it feels like, because of the way the decks are working, staples being super solid or super bricks became the norm rather than the exception.
In the current format I would've taken out Ash and called by however there's a certain insect that has evaded the banlist that I need to now dedicate 1/4 of my deck to counter.
@@Honest_Mids_MasherThat insect is keeping going second playable, like it or not.
@@vo1ce147 but how would that solves anything because side deck exist for both players, you can side deck to counter your opponent's deck, but your opponent could just side deck counter to your counter... so basically you are back to square one...
While there absolutly are Commanders I love from the current era, I somewhat miss the times where there were just legendary creatures that did flavour things and you created a deck around them to play the theme...
Look, it's weird to discuss what's fun or not especially in Yugioh personally, I loved Gem Knight FTK it is a very fun deck that, even when stopped, can do an incredible comeback and still try to burn damage you. In the same vein, I just love Genex, and I remember how much fun I had playing traptrix. The point is independent if you think a card is well designed or not; if you want to play against people who only play GOAT, 2010, 2015, whatever format or type of deck, there is a place for you in the community to duel any deck, any time. So I say all of Yugioh is fun because it has something for everyone.
I just wish it was easier to search or set up formats in Master Duel. Nowadays, in Ranked, everyone plays the same, and it's gotten to the point I either gotta do the same or fill half my decks with counters but no synergy. I just want a place to have fun with my Shaddolls, but I just can't.
The problem is that many times it feels like my skill don't matters since I chain properly and stop most of my oponents move however with tierlement it feels like even if you have all the negates in the world they jsu appear double in the original amount this is what stopped me from playing yu gi oh it's just so p2w game and the video games should've been played without the new unbalanced archetypes
I watch this while trying to make a Kashtira Psy Frame Deck
I did not expect to hear the pest control track to play in a yugioh video.
After Konami released Tear, basically everyone in the community agreed that it would be the best format ever if they just released a bunch of decks that were just Tear but slightly different. And then instead of doing that they released Kashtira and then a bunch of filler garbage to go with it (Resuce-ACE is cool though).
This video has impeccable timing for what just happened with Jeff and his exodia deck haha but it still is very true
Thank you. I was worried I had the same opinion. If I see Kash or Tear or anything meta I scoop instantly. I am here for fun, not frustration.
The funny thing is that there isn’t much difference between a huge combo that ends with like 5 negates and a floodgate since they both block the opponent from playing completely
But the reason why people are fine with the combos is because they at least have ways to stop them before they reach that position
Meanwhile for floodgates there isn’t any hand trap that can choke “set 5, pass, stand by phase”
Also, hot take, Konami should have banned all the ishizu and freed every single tear.
In OCG when ishizu weren’t a thing the deck was fine, it wasn’t tier 0, and actually quite the opposite it was less played then spright
I use flower cardian with exodia,it brings life to my matches
MD players when a deck gests 11 cards banned before it's release and it's not as strong people told them
I play Vernusylph *Radolche* for the fun.
Flower Cardian mentioned = new sub
There is in fact shame. there are people who are queuing up with the solo intention of ruining other people's day , people who will say that they are better you and be sore winners despite the fact they are just playing a deck that is inherently better than yours. I was playing at locals a couple weeks ago when one guy I lost to playing unchained while I was playing inzektors told me and I quote "it is part of player skill to have the competence to pick a Better deck"
Switched to magic a while ago, haven’t looked back.
I like big, simple, explosive plays, that doesn't require a galaxy brain to use.
The difference is that if every deck was like Tear but different, the game would be cool, fun, and based, and if every deck was Kashtira, people would stop playing the game (see all of 2018 yugioh). FTKs can be unfun but if they're bonkers and contrived enough, they're funny, if just the one time (see LukeVonKarma for examples) I have never felt good facing or playing floodgates and even though I currently play Virtual World, the part that pains me the most is that the version I have is Winda turbo because it's a based deck that does really cool things and is a genuinely cool midrange deck that focuses on card advantage
Based
Ok ngl I feel responsible lmao. I went from playing toon world to playing kash because I got sick and tired of losing to tears and well when I found out how broken it was I felt awful, and then when I made the switch from Diabolisis to Arise-Hart it just god even worse for my opponent lmao, however I have lost to some amazing decks, heck I think I lost to a toon world owner seal deck and coming from someone who used to play toons I was happy knowing that a toon deck actually beat my kashtira deck. Really taught me that it isn’t the deck it’s the man behind the deck.
So I'm not familiar with MD format since it's one game, no side. I think counter tech has to hit broad to see play. But for the standard match, "drawing the out" is just simple probability.
If you don't want to do the math, in a 40 card deck, 1 card has about a 10% chance to be seen in 5 card hand. So if you really don't want to lose, play about 10 hard counters, and you're generally guaranteed to see at least one.
Again, works with a side deck, doesn't quite work in MD because those 10 cards might become useless against the wrong opponent.
Against an unfair deck like Tear, floodgates. It's all about picking the right counter deck. Unfortunately, Tear has an answer for everything, which is why it's so successful. Not sure if MD has that Gravekeeper Inscription, but because it lingers like D Shifter, Tear can't do anything about it once it resolves.
Wasn't the first song here from a Genshin event lmao
Whenever facing the meta just remember to stay calm and Wing Dragon of Ra otk those bastards.