Toxic Fandom as Ego Self Defense
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- čas přidán 17. 09. 2021
- I've talked about various aspects of toxic fandom before. But this time I want to try and get at the heart of what keeps many people in this mindset and sometimes even gets them to double down on their most toxic behaviors or non-sensical positions. Because sometimes it's more about protecting one's sense of self than about anything actually going on with the world at large.
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I was listening to this and my first thought was 'well, some of them ARE toxic and bigoted.' To which my brain then pointed out 'yes, *some*'. And that, I think, is the point. If anything, assuming everyone on the opposite side is a monster lets the actual fandom monsters hide. Whereas if we all work together to assume the best of each other, the monsters become suddenly very obvious to everyone, and they can be confronted and given the ultimatum to either de-escalate or be banned.
I read somewhere that the main way to change people's minds about anything is to first connect with them as human beings. Discourse from a stranger has less impact, no matter how rational or well-supported it is. Humans tend to only be open to being changed by people we're open to.
Of course, connecting with someone diametrically opposed as a human being is easier said than done. *Especially* on the internet.
The implication of the term "agenda " in this context has always stood out me, and I could never figure out why until you spelled it out here. Great insight.
* clutches pearls * Am I to understand that people *aren't* out to get me? * faints *
The fact that some people think, writers, actors an directors willingly choose to do things in order to damage and ruin a property, its beyond confusing to me.
Why would they do it? It's their profession, if they do a great job they will get other gigs in the future.
Edit:grammar
Well they do actually admit they are changing the properties. To update them for a moder audience or they say and in marketing/public relations . Even CZcams channels are a platform and if you have a platform you have a responsibility ect . They aren't planning on it being terrible but thier definition of terrible and mine are very different. If they are changing what the property is , then it isn't what it was . And as they didn't create it or haven't even read or watched the original work. Then they are ruining it . Agenda is bigger that fandom it applies in advertising and political media and news .
Oh and many writers and directors or entertainment people fail upwards. Why ? Because they toe the party line
If someone genuinely believes that then they're mentally challenged and not worth attempting to reason with.
@@shanenolan8252 I feel like a lot of creators and artists, throughout history, would disagree very heavily with the idea they have a 'responsibility' to consumers. Including ones who make work you like.
@@SavageBroadcast agreed i dont really believe that they do either or artists and creative people from the past . Its a recent idea. Although i read about comics and the public morals people. Complaining about wonder woman comices or music, first rock then pop then rap ect .but you have people today fired from a job over a private opinion or something they said on Twitter. And the employer says its for poorly representing the company. Responsibility isn't the right word but art has an effect and art is often political and often artists hope something will have a positive effect on society. And the power of propaganda has been known for over a century. If not longer ( although they used different language to name it ) writers slip things in to all sorts of entertainment to alter the zietguist of culture. To shift the overton window.
Vera, your journey has taught me more about gender fluidity and personal identification than any article I'd ever read before. I've been here since before you felt able to share. I stay with your channel, not because of that, but for me, you are making huge inroads for normalising acceptance. Huge white middle class straight fan here. Just listened to the Holy Terror last week on your recommendation. Thanks for thatx it was fab!
Vera does a lot for showing that it's *not* an agenda by being on here, just being a person, talking about stuff that interests her. There's always going to be those people who go "A gender-fluid person existing = agenda!".
But them aside, "normalising" is the perfect term. I don't follow the Vera Wylde channel so for me, she's 'just' that interesting person who does the videos I enjoy about Doctor Who and other stuff. For me, her happening to be gender-fluid is neither here or there. It's just normal.
P.S. Does she still go by Nathaniel or is that a deadname now?
It's not a deadname, I just use it less online/professionally than I used to.
I remember once reading a Sherlock Holmes story, and in it there was little spiel about how assumptions kill an investigation, and Holmes/Arthur Conan Doyle were absolutely right. If we allow ourselves to assume things, then it becomes more of a quest to prove that we’re right than it is a quest for truth. We tie up our ego into the fact that we’re right, so when someone comes along with a different opinion, we take it as them saying: “You’re wrong, actually.” Which hurts our ego so we double down, say how wrong they are. Someone brings up Hitler and eventually both parties leave disgusted, convinced that the other is completely wrong about everything.
What's the saying..."When you *assume* , you make an *ass* out of *u* and *me* ...
Politics in a nutshell
This is something that’s come up a lot recently in Vaccine debates. People who want to justify not taking it, jumping on coincidences and assuming they are causal. The toxic part comes though when they start screaming SHILL at anyone challenging their conformational bias, or from the other side, people accusing them of being qannon supporting lunatics, when actually, they could just be scared.
Part of the problem, for me personally, is that social media is public. So every comment we make is potentially read my millions of strangers. Strangers don’t know your history, your traumas, your personality. There is no way for them to know if your question was actually sarcasm. That’s where the misconceptions breed, the anonymity, it creates the perfect environment to presume. And yes, people are quick to take offence and react with knee jerk responses. And that leads to stuff being said or implied without a shred of evidence or justification.
It's hard not to assume the things one thinks are correct, because otherwise we would not think them; we'd wonder about them. But I get what you're saying. I have a hard time sometimes with, say, characters I consider toxic, when I see another person defending them. It's very hard for me not to project the character's toxicity onto the person. I mean, that's if they're defending the character's behavior; not the same as people who are like, wow that character is so fascinating and a horrible person. It's hard to separate these things. And I'm not entirely sure what's right. If someone defends some basic problematic rom com behaviors, is that a person I should be wary of? I want to say no, I really do, but I can't. But I know it's not necessarily a red flag either.
I really appreciate your nuanced thoughts on these matters. They help me to think and question things, and that's always a good thing.
Honestly I'm somewhere in between. I find the number of John Walker defenders disturbing. I tend to think it says more about the culture in which we're raised than what it says about an individual (for the most part).
Then I'll find myself not defending a character but objecting to some of the criticisms e.g. someone once said that a certain character repenting doesn't make them a better person cause they're just doing it cause they feel guilty-- which I disagree with but I don't want it to come across as me defending the character's initial behaviour.
I think there is room for your concerns, the same way there is room for all these assumptions to be unfounded or unnecessary.
Sometimes you will pick up on another person’s defense of a certain character, and you may very well be correct in what worries you about their reaction and appreciation of negative and harmful behavior.
With more details, it will be easier to know.
Perhaps it can even be a bit of both at the same time.
@@Ben-vf5gk At a certain point, the individual is the culture though, so the onus (at least in part) is on them. But I get what you are saying overall.
@@aikaterineillt9876 That certain point definitely exists. To use Walker as an example, people who just said they believed him to be redeemed after only doing one good thing, those I would say it says more about the culture in which the privileged get forgiven to easily. When they start saying Walker was right or he killed a terrorist so it doesn't matter that's when I write a person off.
I struggle the same way, with the Reylo shippers that love the newer Star wars movies. It's so unhealthy a relationship, how can anyone like it?
I try not to get pulled into fandom drama. It's really hard, sometimes, because I actually like a good discussion/debate about things and hearing other people's points of view, but most of the time people aren't debating in good faith - they're not even trying to, in fact - and I just, metaphorically, walk away. Ignoring comments and opinions you think are wrong is not an easy thing to do, but I've found it's a necessary thing to do - for the sake of my own mental health, if nothing else. I don't want to be that kind of person. I don't want to end up a bully. In the end, I don't know any of the people I talk with on the internet, and they don't me, so why should we care that much about each other's opinions? There seems, to me, to be a very, very fine line where healthy social interaction becomes toxic and it's so easy to step over and I'm fairly certain that most of the time people don't even realise they've done it. I've only realised it after the fact, myself. It can be tiring, too. Sometimes you just want to interact without the constant low-grade anxiety of wondering, "Am I going too far with this? Should I say this? Should I add this? Should I point out that this person could have meant something else by what they said?" Living in a state of vague uncertainty about every interaction is so exhausting sometimes.
_Living in a state of vague uncertainty about every interaction is so exhausting sometimes.
_
Yet a much, much more accurate view of reality...
To quote Shatner... "Get a life people, it is just a TV show."
Mark Hamill said “Get a life, nerds!” when Kelly Marie Tran was getting endlessly harassed.
When I hear about views that seem incomprehensible to me, I try to listen to the arguments of the people who hold those views. Usually, what they are saying is more reasonable than what is being reported. Of course they may be lying about what they actually believe, but I think doubting people's sincerity is equivalent to ascribing them an agenda. Even if I don't fully accept their point of view, I usually end up accepting some of their points, and understanding why they believe the rest. It is often striking how people with opposite views on a topic often reason the same way, but with different base assumptions coming from their life experience and where they see themselves. We are all a lot more similar to each other than we like to admit.
This is an excellent articulation of feelings I frequently have when I see Chris Chibnall haters online; personally, I strongly dislike many aspects of Chibnall's take on Doctor Who, but that doesn't mean he's sabotaging the show. He's been watching it since he was a child and he loves it just as much as I do - possibly more - but I suspect that the appeal for Chibnall is the show's boldness (evident in his choices to cast a female doctor, replace established canon with the Timeless Children plot twist, create episodes which are boldly and explicitly political such as Orphan 55 or Praxeus, etc.) whereas the appeal for me is the characters, wit and whimsical fun.
I agree; there is nothing wrong with making bold choices for a Science Fiction TV show, especially a very long-running one like Doctor Who. My issue is with Chibnall's execution of these bold choices is that they come across to me as mostly clumsy and unfocused rather than considered or effective. I don't have a problem with episodes with very obvious and explicit political messages; Doctor Who is rarely subtle (especially with only 45 minute-1 hour episodes) when it comes to it's themes. The difference is that Orphan 55 is a base under siege/attempted rescue story which slaps on it's environmental message near the end, and the Doctor gives a very toothless speech which lays the responsibility at the feet of individuals rather than corporations or governments, (But hey, this is the BBC we're talking about, so what did we expect?) whereas Praxeus was, for all it's faults, very clear throughout that it's about plastic pollution via the premise of microplastics as a disease which slowly kills people. (Very lucky that it aired just before COVID-19 really started spreading, as I could have seen it being pulled had the season aired a few months later) My biggest problem with Praxeus was the Birdemic-esque scene where the side character is left on the beach to die for no reason at all...
I'm someone who dislikes many aspects of Chibnall's run but also likes a few aspects of it, and doesn't find it the end of the world. And it's fascinating to me how often, the instant you post a defence of anything Chibnall, you get accused of being a "Chibnall-lover". Like there's only a binary and the only two options are to mindlessly love his run, or vitriolically hate it. It's weird.
EDIT: Joe Espin's ironic comment below is a brilliant example of what I mean.
I honestly don't think Chibnall's trying to *not* have character, whimsy and wit. He brought us episodes with a sentient universe shaped like a frog, a James-Bond-esque spy romp, and possibly the campest King James ever. He also brought us episodes exploring depression and grief, etc.
He just seems to fall flat on the execution for some reason. It's an interesting insight into how much of the show is the showrunner's influence vs the writer's. If you look at the episodes Chibnall wrote under Moffat like _Dinosaurs on a Spaceship_ or _42_ they have more wit and warmth and characterisation. We got more of a feel for Brian's Dad or John Riddell in a single episode than we did for some of the fam over an entire season or two. (Riddell is kind of a caricature, but at least he's a caricature with *personality).*
This is hardly a unique observation but Chibnall's main flaw seems to be that he can't resist *explaining* things to us. He rarely if ever hints at things and trusts the audience to understand the implications. If he just did that, the show would be at least 75% better, IMO...
@@GeriatricFan1963 99% agree with this. Being the internet, I'm going to focus in on the 1% that I don't. :)
_"near the end, and the Doctor gives a very toothless speech which lays the responsibility at the feet of individuals rather than corporations or governments,"_
IMO in real life these things are intertwined, interacting and inseparable. Governments are elected by individuals. Corporations respond to the actions of individuals, where they choose to spend their money, and where they put pressure. Not to mention all the everyday people who work in and at Governments and Corporations. They aren't these magically separate things at a distant remove from ordinary everyday people. We interact with and influence them all the time. In a very real way they are an extension of the population, and if we go "Oh, that responsibility isn't at our feet, it's those corporations and Governments and there's nothing we can do about that" then we're burying our heads in the sand.
EDIT: Ohey, looks like Kurzgesagt just put out a video that came to basically the same conclusion: The individual personal changes we make have little impact on Climate Change but we still have the power and responsibility to influence the people who *do* have their hands on the levers of major change... czcams.com/video/yiw6_JakZFc/video.html
@@joeespin4377 Most of your comment talks about how Chibnall's episodes are poor because Chibnall just isn't a good writer for Who (which I mostly agree with, though I think he has the potential to improve). Then your final sentence suddenly flips to saying it's somehow due to the gender of the actor? How is that at all relevant? Surely the quality of a Bond would be down to the quality of the writing (and acting), regardless of what gender Bond is?
Fandoms are so much like religion. People read one book like one book but everyone argues about what it says and which parts matter and which need to be ignored. What's canon what's not
There are degrees, but yep, the level of devotion some IP attract is bordering on faith. Which is probably why the reactions to changes can seem like heresy to those particular fans.
the Star Wars fandom is very much like this
@@androstempest yes obviously not every fandom. But many Whovians are like that, and I'm a Bon Jovi fan, music fans can very much be a toxic fandom too.
The very fact we use the word canon says a lot. Canon was originally meant to refer to books meant to go into the Christian Bible. With this in mind, it starts making sense as to why so many fandoms have, dare I say it, religious adherence to the franchise's canon. I think that's why "Remove this from Canon" is one of the most common responses to media they don't like, instead of doing something more constructive like "Well that sucked. How could it have been better?"
Oh my God you're right lol
Having your mind made up about something before entering a conversation about that something is always a recipe for disaster
I’ve never dug into the provenance of this statement, but it’s something that’s stuck with me ever since I first saw it: “Being a fan doesn’t mean you were there from the beginning. It means you’re willing to be there until the end.“ Admittedly, there are certain series‘ and franchises I haven’t completed - despite my early infatuation with them - but they will always be there, and I’m grateful for the opportunity to work them at my own pace, regardless of their popularity in the moment.
Don’t forget the toxic trait that some folks really put to its full use in fandom, the need to feel superior to others.
These folks deliberately create division, bully new people on to their side and then harass others who disagree. Once they get called out for bullying then they switch tactics and claim that the person is ___(fill in the blank with bigotry of some variety)___ and this is why they can’t stand by. 🥴
But I do think many people end up “on a side” for the exact reasons you’ve stated.
This reminds me of a web comic strip of a lady doing a lot of research and development of a comic book or manga character costume - there is a panel where she reads the comic to get a better sense of the character. She then goes to a con cosplaying as the character where a bald guy yells at her for not knowing the character.
The point of the comic was that she was also a fan even though she first gotten into the character because of the costume.
I go by what I call the fanfiction creed: write what you want, read what you want. Don’t like it, don’t read it. You don’t control what other people write or read.
And hoe can a story be ruined by something new that you don’t like? I think the 2018 She Ra is everything awesome in every way. But if someone prefers the original 80’s version, that series isn’t gone. It’s not destroyed. It’s even available for free on CZcams, every episode. What’s the point of being angry about which version is better? Like what you enjoy, and let others do the same.
I want you to know I'm a longtime viewer. I can't tell you how much I appreciate what you mean to many people. As someone who doesn't have to deal with some of the issues that you have, you have b taught me to look at myself and whether or not my views need to be more open. I have shared your videos with many friends. And you have been a light in the darkness. Thank you. I wish I could afford a patreon. But I do like your videos and share when I can.
Part of the problem is that in society backing down in an argument is seen to some extent as a weakness, while stubbornness is rewarded. Being good at debating usually implies "winning" the debate, when intelligent, healthy debate or discourse should always be about learning from each other. It's time we started normalizing re-evaluating one's opinions and being more introspective about ourselves.
This is in the mix yes. Sadly the idea of learning is valued less than the idea of having already been right.
Vera just told me that I'm beautiful 😳💖
Well surely you cannot be surprised when you look like Rin Tin Tin.
I look like ALF.
It's funny that "Watchmen" comes to my mind when we talk "agendas" as one can clearly see that the Centrist Zack Snyder had no grasp on what the Anarchist Alan Moore was telling with the story so he changed it for his movie and turned it into superhero garbage.
So maybe it's less of an actual "agenda" and more of a bias based on someones world view?
Vera had a video a while back that said in a nutshell (or maybe this was just my takeaway from it): *All* films 'have an agenda' - creators are human beings with personalities and values and positions, and their work is going to reflect the things they're interested in. A truly neutral film with no 'agenda' is going to be the blandest thing imaginable.
That stuck with me, even if I probably mangled it...
On the topic of doctor who I do tend to seek out people who like aspects that I don't, not to insult them but because I genuinly love talking about Dr Who, the good and the bad, I never insult people and always do my best to be polite, I also find that it helps me appreciate the bits of the show i don't like so much when they are defended, because the best bits are highlighted.
I should aim to be more like your good self.
I love dr who but I'm not a huge fan of the 12 dr. 9 is my personal favorite. But I can totally see why so many people love 12. And I can see why some done love or even really can't stand 9. Fandom at least is all completely adjective and should be to each their own.
You've coined a really neat phrase with "is all completely adjective" and I think I may steal it. :)
This is absolutely spot on! The problem is I find in fandom, especially in the Doctor Who fandom is the tit for tat, eye for an eye bullshit. We are currently in the midst of a twitter war where a girl said her views on Jodie Whittaker as an ambassador for the show and that she did not think that she made enough effort with fans. This of course rubbed people the wrong way and back and forth discourse began. Now from what I saw the discourse was no different to the usual disagreements within fandom, however this particular girl has mental health problems and reportedly tried to commit suicide. This of course lead to her friends rallying around her but then they launched a counter attack and smear campaign by some people on the her side, this then lead to the other side jumping in.... It's gone one from there with false accusations of bullying etc, I myself had a slagging match with a few of these accounts over the past couple of days. This got me thinking though, this could have been all avoided if the friends of hers just came and explained what was happening, but they decided to outright try and cancel this one guy.
It's this eye for an eye bullshit which needs to stop within the fandom, it seems to be a battle to see who blocks the other first.
What I will say is your take on this is absolutely spot on, brilliant!
Yeh, they made some really nasty attacks on me and it got really out of hand, with some of them talking about violence and so on, over what started from disagreeing on a TV show.
@@joeespin4377 Kind of missing the point of discussion. I think she has been and that being a fan is not necessary. But I don't want to get into another argument on this matter.
@@joeespin4377 Right...
My grandma had a Yiddish name for s**tstirrer: plotke maker.
I don't understand ppl, I try but I don't understand how ppl can get mad over a show, or opinion. That show is someone's art. If you don't like it, don't trash it. If other ppl don't like it who cares. If ppl don't like what you love so what, that dosen't mean you can't. If ppl do things, enjoy things, and live in ways you didn't, if it doesn't hurt everyone, why do ppl care? Why do ppl get like this way? Thank you for sharing this and helping me understand. I live by a few simple rules. Be kind, be honest, and be safe.
It can be so hard to keep an eye on myself for things like this in the heat of the moment. I mean there are even times where I find myself getting heated in a normal conversation with a friend over Facebook messenger. I try not to, but I get frustrated when someone doesn't understand what I'm trying to say because I have difficulty articulating how I feel about something sometimes. I do try my best though. Thank you for shedding light on this aspect of toxic fandom.
Very insightful video. I would add that it is oftentimes a result of weak/insecure people following that behaviour, but the way social media works, it bleeds throughout the fandom.
Agenda and Doctor Who is always a funny arguement, because the fabled Davies era had the showrunner that made an effort to include as many LGBTQIA characters as he could (to the point it was a running joke in the fandom). Current era Doctor Who has a lot of problems, but agenda is hardly one of them.
What's really fun is when this fandom ego defense gets combined with entitlement to fan creator effort/production. I am hated in segments of my primary fandom where I take prompts, and a fair amount of that hate, and most of the most personal hate, comes from a handful of people who found out that I didn't share their headcanon when I decided not to fill their prompts. They're all nice when they think they're going to get something from you, but when you turn them down? They act like incels turned down for a date.
Respect (of intrinsic humanity) IS a protective factor🤝❤️🩹🙌
Thank you for making this. Admitting that you, yourself, are wrong is so very hard to do. That difficulty is daunting & hard to push through. However, I've found that doing so leads to a improved mindset, as you stop having anxiety about the issue.
Brains are dumb.
As always, an excellent video: not an easy topic for some people to listen to, as I don't imagine those that fall into the category of being a toxic gatekeeper imagine themselves as such, but as a champion protecting that which they love.
Anyway, in case you or any of your loyal council members have strolled this far down in the comment section, I thought I might share this story I saw on the website I frequent called Notalwaysright. Mostly the stories there are about customers doing stupid things, but they do have other stories too. Such as this tale about a big Star Wars fan quizzing a younger Star Wars fan about how much they know about the franchise....
(BTW, I appreciate that this might be classified as promoting. It isn't my intention to do so: I think this is a cute story you will hopefully appreciate. I don't work for NAR; I just go there a lot and post puns in the comments. If you don't want this in the comments, please feel free to delete, but please don't block me! I love your videos, and as a middle-aged cis male, I find your perspective extremely informative and it helps me understand many topics that I would otherwise have no understanding of)
Enough of me wittering away... here's the story!
(Every year on New Year’s Eve, my family has a big sleepover at my grandmother’s house. Cousins, grandchildren, and out-of-state relatives will all travel to partake in this. This year, we have someone new participating as my uncle, who lives next door to my grandmother, just got married and now has a 17-year-old stepson. None of us know him very well; most of us are meeting him for the first time at this sleepover. Pretty much all any of us really know about our new cousin is that he really, really likes Star Wars. He notices that one of my younger cousins, who is equally a big fan of Star Wars, is wearing BB-8 pajamas and starts questioning her about her knowledge.)
Cousin #1: “BB-8, huh? Have you seen any of the older movies or just the new ones?”
Cousin #2: “No, I’ve seen them all.”
Cousin #1: “Have you ever actually seen a movie in theaters?”
Cousin #2: “My dad took me to see a free screening of A New Hope at [Local Discount Theater] once.”
Cousin #1: “Oh? Well, then, what about Clone Wars? Have you ever seen either of the Clone Wars cartoons?”
(He eventually starts quizzing her on very specific moments in Star Wars lore and, to her credit, she can answer most of them pretty well until she gets to one question about the show “The Mandalorian” that stumps her.)
Cousin #2: “I don’t know! I haven’t seen it yet because we don’t have Disney+!”
(By this point, I’m starting to worry that he’s gatekeeping and trying to assess whether or not she’s a “true fan,” and I’m getting ready to intervene and defend her if I have to, until I see him smile and get excited.)
Cousin #1: “Yes! I found something you don’t know! Let me get my Xbox so I can show you!”
(He ended up running next door to his house and grabbing his Xbox so they and a bunch of the other kids could stay up all night watching “The Mandalorian” and other Disney shows on his Disney+ account. The next day, the two of them were gushing about Star Wars and he sent her home with a couple of his favorite novels to read. I think he is going to fit in with our family just fine.)
@Thomas Meehan normally I'd agree, but in this case it was just to find something they hadn't seen before so they could let them experience it. If at any point the line "Call yourself a fan?" been used, then absolutely it would be gatekeeping. But that didn't happen here.
I do think most kinds of toxicity are a sort of defense mechanism in one way or another -- what seems to happen most often is that something gives somebody... some kind of feeling, which they never learned how to deal with, and so their only way to continue is to reject that thing's existence.
What feeling it is and what sorts of things can trigger it could vary from person to person, but the vast majority of time when I find myself dealing with a toxic person, their behaviour seems to follow that pattern of rejecting their own feelings and then blaming them on someone else.
It's a fine distinction, but what I've learned about the internet is it makes it very easy for a person to reject the idea of someone else's existence if it conflicts with their worldview. Losing yourself in a big place where you already know many people aren't exactly who they say they are makes it very easy to lash out and essentially say "no, you can't possibly be real".
And it's much easier to tell yourself the other person isn't really a person than to learn, let alone admit to being wrong.
This is a bit unrelated with the topic of the video, but it came to my mind and I suppose it doesn't hurt to share.
I've been actively participating in fandom communities of all kinds for a long time, and 99% of the times I speak to people who have different takes/opinions/feelings about everything related to the geek property which is being discussed. And that's never been an issue, I mean, I wouldn't participate in fandom communities if it was. I never found myself thinking "this is a horrible person" or "this person has an agenda" while speaking Star Wars, Undertale or A Song of Ice and Fire. But recently something happened that made me nope the f out of a fandom entirely, exactly because I realized I was judging people personally - without knowing them and just through their opinion about a piece of media - which is something that I hated to see myself doing. Though I couldn't help it.
I'm talking about the Shingeki no Kyojin (Attack on Titan) fandom. Avoiding spoilers, the ending abruptly leans into some awful misogynistic tropes, other than engaging in a victim blaming, even racist narrative, and a good chunk of the fandom vehemently defended it. It left me speechless at first, then my blood started boiling and I found myself giving very harsh judgement towards those who actively justified it. It was a very weird situation and I had to remind myself that stepping out of the SnK conversation entirely was better than engaging in venomous exchanges, but I really can't help thinking awfully of the people who managed somehow to praise the most godawful romanticization of slavery and abuse, among other things.
I realized that fandom discussions can easily turn toxic, regardless of the people who go with the "the leftists are trying to push their agenda in this and that" leitmotif. It's a complex situation, especially because everybody wants to be right, and no one wants to admit that something they like can be problematic.
okay this is a weird thing to put in the comments of a video but im doing a project on pro-shippers and anti-shippers for my uni course. originally i just wanted to look at the groups on their own, but as i was researching i started to see some trends that are also brought up in this video; the need to take sides, conspiratorial thinking (either 'think of the children' moral panic or 'they're gonna stop gay fanfiction from being avaliable' panic) and one thing i noticed was power and control.
your line about how "it's a show, you can disagree with people about a show without painting them with a brush" definitely reminded me of this conflict, as well as how some people often use this conflict to promote their own agendas (once again, going back to your 'opinions become agendas' comment). i love how you put it down in words, and im pretty sure you do must of these videos unscripted, so it mustve been cathartic to get it off your chest.
also that 'trained actor' comment you mentioned -- not sure why but as someone who has been around terfs it set me off, especially as youre a fellow nonbinary person
I once went into mild shock when I found out that one the creators with the Wonder Woman franchise(comics, not movies) got death threats when he decided to have Diana date a Black man...
I remember once on twitter saying that Clownfish TV was full of shit or something like that in reference to the new Masters of the Universe series, and after a two day argument with a bunch of fanboys, I was accused of working for GLAAD as some sort of agent there to askew the narrative. I wish I worked for GLAAD, it would mean I have a job. But that aside, I've thought of your question about asking yourself why you do what you do, and I have an answer: they ruined it for me, everything. I can't enjoy anything because they won't let me. So, that's the reason behind my revenge. Or rather, the reason behind the satire in my stories. I can't let them get away with it.
I’m a Doctor Who fan, and I love Hell Bent but dislike Journey’s End. But I appreciate your perspective, and I hope I have been respectful.
I feel like we would all benefit from getting used to saying "huh, I'm not sure that's a reading of the text I can get behind, but you do you" or "I didn't really see it that way, but based on your interpretation of X I could see how you would get to Y" or "I don't agree, but also don't really want to argue" or just not say anything (unless someone is being hateful, but I am literally just talking about fan debates here). Half the fun about being a nerd is getting into friendly debate with other people about the things we like and embracing the diversity of opinions among a diverse community (IDIC, y'all). I firmly believe that cultivating that attitude in hobby and fandom circles will have a spillover. positive effect in more serious contexts.
I always appreciate your opinions and how vulnerable you allow yourself to be. While fueled from an emotional place, your reasons are presented logically and rationally, and it is refreshing. I have always been open to others' opinions that differ from mine when it comes to fandoms, as long as they have a good reason when I ask, "Why do you feel that way?" Staying hard-headed on an opinion makes you miss out on interesting and fun conversations.
I would LIKE to think it's a behavior one "matures" out of. (I admit, I was a rather prick-ish 20-something that had "absolute hot takes", and wanted to be confrontational about my opinions.) But now in my early 40's, I know there are things that I like, and things I MAY YET like, but for those I don't like, I don't want to crap on any else's parade because of it, nor do I want to assault a creator for making something I would rather block out of my brain. ... But then again, people that want to cling to this behavior probably won't improve over time and age, which is unfortunate.
Conspiratorial thinking is inherently egotistic ‘n’ narcissistic, in my opinion. 🤔
“They” are out to get *me*. 🤨
Look at “The Mandela Effect”, for example. People would rather believe that there are multiple realities somehow twisting against them, rather than just admit that they misremembered something irrelevant. 🙄
Once upon a time, their $#!+ was kind of entertaining (see every other episode of *The X-Files*), but now it’s damn near ripping our society apart… 😬
It’s entertaining until you truly realise that they actually believe it.
I made a decision at a young age to never stop changing my opinions if facts made a compelling argument. And to always learn more. Its served me well
In my experience, we as people become deeply attached to and invested in our own views and the things we support. We imprint, as it were, and when something we care about gets negative feedback, we get defensive because we feel personally attacked. As a result, what started as an opinion becomes a war of ideologies. Take in the fact that a lot of modern day media promotes divisiveness, and we have the toxic nature of some fandoms today.
I've always thought it a shame that most people who need to see videos like this never will, then something happened that made me realize I am one of those people. I love these videos but something has always felt off, I realized when you mentioned being gender fluid that I was letting myself get a little frustrated because I couldn't place a gender. So I apologize for the insult that neither of us knew I was giving, and I thank you for this content. I have more work than I thought in regards to this kind of thing.
Also remember everyone can have a different interpretation of what a certain piece of media means and represents. There isnt a right or wrong answer.
What I'm always amazed by isn't that so many toxic fans believe in conspiratorial thinking, but that they actually believe anyone would waste their time making them the subject of a conspiracy.
I always find it interesting with large, ongoing franchises and the talk of who is a "true" fan. The biggest example I always think of is Star Wars. So for a vocal group you aren't a "true" fan unless you actively dislike the majority of the franchise. So the more movies and shows you like the less of a fan you actually are.
I’ve seen people on both sides of the debate as to why this happens. In fact I saw this kind of discussion get so bad that I signed up for a few courses in college so I could learn more about this kind of group interaction. In part because I was genuinely fascinated by it and because it fit my education requirements but also because I wanted to study it. And I learned that when people enter an echo chamber like situation and they get riled up enough they see any contradiction of their beliefs as confirmation of them because anyone who disagrees with the accepted beliefs is wrong.
Also the “agenda” argument gets a lot easier to argue when the people involved flat out state their intentions. Like Brie Larson said “this could be my form of activism” when she was offered the part of Captain Marvel. Or Leslie Headland saying she wants to infuse the Star Wars series The Acolyte with “modern day politics.” Neither of those is remotely a joke, look it up. I have seen baseless conspiracy theories, but when the person directly tells you their intentions it leaves less open to interpretation.
This video fits really well with the your review of Infinity Train season 3.
Though admittedly, I am one of those weird people who watch the review without watching the show.
Not sure why the algorithm suggested this video but I'm glad it did.
So glad I watched this despite being uninterested in fandoms, this is great stuff!!
Finding the right balance between humility and confidence is such a hard thing to do. You gotta be able to trust yourself without getting arrogant, and to question yourself constantly without giving in to doubt... I get why and how people fall into these toxic behaviors, even if it doesn't make them ok, obviously.
Ah… the penny drops on your tweet a few days ago. Yeah…. I’ve had my share of being a villain in fan arguments. I suspect there is more than a little decepticon in my make up. The problem I find is that I tend to make statements assuming no one reads them, so it’s unlikely anyone would agree or disagree. But when someone does and the reaction is negative, well, that tends to bring out my defensive side. It was never that I was looking fir a fight as such, but once one found me, that little voice that says “go home, it’s not worth it” isn’t always loud enough.
As for people making assumptions. Hand on heart I’ve done that. I’ve generalised that Trump supporters are stupid and fascists, with no other supporting evidence than my own self righteous indignation. As a result I’ve probably alienated a lot of people over the last five years.
But I’ve also been on the other side. Your opening comment about people assuming an agenda was aimed directly at me several times. I watched, and disliked Black Panther. And as a direct result I was accused of racism. That hurt, because my objections had nothing to do with race.
I guess what I’m saying is that I can see the effects of toxic behaviour in fandom from the side of someone who painted with broad strokes and was also caught by someone else’s brush too,
I’ll try to keep what you’ve said here in mind, because at the end of the day, you are right - we do like to think we are the heroes in our own stories. But to justify that, we need to ACT more heroic, instead of just looking for villains.
Ego defense reminds me a lot of how antis/fantis/fancops work tbh. They see a fanart they don’t like, regardless of legit triggers or made up on the name of ship wars, and decide to make them out to be an abuser bc of the art (or fic or what have you). And it can be from anything from legit dark material not unlike Game of Thrones or Steven King’s It to a fucking child Minotaur licking a bit of chalk bc child that somehow upset these folks and cause them to attack. And the most annoying part is, I agree with them that some of the material is awful! But I will never agree that harassment is the answer. The answer for that is content warnings. But those are never enough for the SWERF wannabes (they’ll swear up and down they aren’t radfems, but the logic lines up, unfortunately). They want it gone and don’t care about the people they hurt in the process. There have even been suicide attempts (and at least a few possible attempts that worked) and an animator I’m mutuals with got kicked out of the industry bc they got doxxed by these fancops. And it all boils down to them not accepting that art and writing are tools and can be used as much as for catharsis as for hurting someone else, but it takes an abuser to do the hurting, not the art existing by itself. And so many refuse to accept that difference. I just wish I knew how to help them get to that realization.
All people defend their ego. It's why we must all be aware of ourselves. Unfortunately we're the heroes of our stories and we need to be empathetic to each other or at least try.
Some of the willingness to believe that there are elements looking to interpret a fandom in a way that fundamentally misunderstands it and actively prevents the core fan base from being able to enjoy it in peace might be projection.
The recent attempt by TERFs to hijack Sir Terry Pratchett comes to mind, as does the frankly confusing attempts by a subset of law enforcement to appropriate The Punisher.
Yeh, that was pretty weird when you had his daughter and friend commenting on this and people assuming they knew better.
I found this video very informative, I never knew I needed to hear this
Life is a very strange game of Simon says.... maybe because it's not actually Simon says it's an obscure version of poker in a pitch dark room with blank cards ,for infiniet stakes ,with a dealer who won't tell you the rules and smiles all the time. Right and wrong is very scary when you have 2 think 4 yourself and that makes people crave rules that they can make everybody obey. And that goes 4 both kind and mean people. They want a game of Simon says. When you stop looking 4 someone or a set of rules 2 obey life gets both easier and way more difficult.
Now granted, a lot of this is just grifters who don't believe what they say; they just say it to make money off of angry nerds. However, I feel like, in some specific cases, that there is a level of jealousy at play: that these women and minorities got to have a go on a franchise they themselves wanted to, but for reasons, never did. That sense of pseudo-entitlement does a number on their ego, that somehow they got 'cheated' out of a job that they wanted but, let's be honest, they were never really in the running for.
Why do you always make me feel feelings when you talk about important topics like this?
There's a lot of overlap I think between what you're talking about and Innuendo Studios' Angry Jack series, have you seen it? He zooms out a little to cover a broad scope of behaviours, like for example how people who eat meat can get irrationally angry at vegans, but he mostly speaks through the lens of gamergate
I'm familiar with Ian's work. Did my best to not just rip him off.
@@CouncilofGeeks Oh shit I wasn't trying to imply that you were ripping him off, I'm sorry. I just generally have no idea who watches whom and I thought that if you weren't already familiar with his work that you'd find it interesting.
I think that being in the Pokémon fandom helped me avoid this mostly because there’s so many ways to enjoy it and so many aspects of it that exist. Even in the main games, you can play competitively, casually, for collecting, engage in side activities or ignore them entirely. It’s a good swath of variety in just one fandom. Some people only care about the anime, and that’s fine. Others the TCG. Some the toys, plushes, side games, etc. I’m not immune to this type of thinking, but I’m more exposed to a fandom with different ways to interact with it
Thanks for giving me food for thought, that's always welcome.
On the other hand, remember that being tolerant with intolerance is a very dangerous thing.
I want to think I only attack haters, i.e. people that have clearly shown hate before, for Kurtzman or for Chibnall in particular, but that doesn't mean I have never been wrong. Anyway, when I read "drekkies", "SJW woke" or some such smut, that's the signal to counterattack and all bets are off. I refuse to respect that kind of people, sorry, Vera.
EDIT: Also when I read "STD is trash, it is not Star Trek". 🤮🤮🤮
EDIT: Sometimes even comments like "White straight men are banned from the future." Please stop whining and stand up for yourselves - without stepping on anyone else's toes!
Your videos are always really insightful and thought-provoking. You're very good at articulating a point, and conveying it in a way that others can understand. Keep being awesome!
Also your eyelashes are pretty.
16:47 valuable information to remember.
I hope fandoms improve someday. Elitism and toxicity sucks!
Thank you for explaining things really well! It's one of my major favorites about your channel!
I've been feeling really stressed out about the debate I've had at several leftist servers about divisive/toxic fandoms being the next level threat for leftists because I compared fans' thoughts on what direction a product should go to their political positions. If fans want a product to be innovative and experimental because they're tired of the same old formulaic structure, then they have a leftist mindset. And if fans want a products to remain as is because "if it ain't broken, don't fix it," then they have a conservative mindset. There's also the artist's vision vs. what the fans want debate too. The leftists argued to me that the comparison is too simplistic and leftists aren't a hivemind and will always disagree with each other on the overall quality of a product post-capitalism. It's making confused, because it's usually leftists who complain about the lack of originality and reliance on nostalgia in their products, and driving me crazy, because of how even in a leftist society, I feel I still can't enjoy the newer entries of my favorite IPs because of fans being divisive on their overall quality.
I just want to live in a post-capitalist world where there's less toxicity in fandoms, now that capitalism will no longer hinder artists' intents in their work, so I can enjoy the new entries with their fullest potential from said artists.
"Don't believe them they're a trained actor" girl what 😭😭😭
I really like Rick and Morty, but I do not want to be associated with the fanbase. And this brought that into sharper focus because I know I'm not the R&M enjoyer who feels this way, but calling ourselves "fans" paints us with labels that ain't us.
Are you sure you are an just fail actor/train mathemagician/CZcamsr/etc.? Not Phsychologist? That was one of the best insights into toxic behaving peoples mindsets.
While I like to think I have some insight, don't mistake me for an educated professional.
I need to examine myself and my beliefs about other people. I think I'm guilty of the bad faith you describe in this video, at least a little bit or in some areas.
But they ARE fake fans, and they've even started admitting it. I have receipts, I can show you. Hit me up on Twitter, and I can walk you through it. They're not there for the content. They're there to make the conversations toxic. They're there for the political fight against actual historical fan groups. I think defining these tourists as fans, at least fans of the things they're railing against is a mistake. Their fandom IS the toxicity and hate, not a natural outgrowth of fandom itself. And if you don't believe me, there's an easy way to prove it. Wait for one to show up, and then read their freaking timeline. You'll be disappointed in them as people... every single time. Fandoms have always had their problems with inclusion and exclusivity. Nobody's arguing that. But they've never had this specific set of problems until fairly recently.
And the big factor: money. You can make a living making people angry now.
To cope I have decided that I’m never wrong but admittedly I do change my mind a great deal lol
I like doctor who before, and I still do. But the chibnall era I don't like much. But people need to explore the Doctor Who universe more. Why people is no talking about Dalek Universe with Tennant? The Dimension Canon with Billie Piper? have many stories to enjoy guys, if you not like to watch the TV now.
You know what i find toxic is repeatedly calling some fandoms toxic
I can definitely believe that people leaving because of toxic fans but some made it their identity
Look no further than the Steven universe hatedom again it's oké not liking or having criticism (have many for my self)
But saying that some taking it way to far is generous and come with the most stupid reason ever and even start attacking those who like it
I am always happy if someone enjoys something no one should be shamed for liking something. What I struggle with is if I don't like a particular story then it must cause I'm a bigot or hate women or something else. All creative people come to project with a goal or agenda. If people like the finial vision wonderful just don't call me good if Iike it or bad if I don't or vise versa. Let's have passionate debates about geek culture but care and respect each other as people and fellow geeks in the end.
8:02 - 8:27 I'm sure that's often the case, but I also think sometimes it's because the video got the commenter riled in spite of how old it is. For example, if years from now you're still blocking people who leave angry comments in your video on why it's supposedly impossible to separate the art from the artist, it might because you made the condescending comment "being an adult sucks, but you've still got to do it" which sounds like something a shit-poster would say and is annoying for someone to hear in the present even if you said it years ago.
And if you leave a video up a year or longer afterward, you should consider that maybe you bear some responsibility for the comments it gets. That's not to say the comments left on an old video are automatically reasonable, but you shouldn't assume someone's anger is unreasonable just because it's over an old video.
If someone hears an insufferable comment for the first time it can feel immediate no matter how long ago it was, kind of like how we can feel things for characters in a movie despite knowing it's just an actor saying lines.
I don't hate you or approve of the accusation thrown at you on your other video channel, but your "Why you can't separate the art from the artist video" was kind of an asshole video.
9:52 - 10:37 As a someone who's not gender fluid, I'm genuinely sorry another not gender fluid person was an ass to you in a situation where it sounds like you didn't do anything wrong. I can only imagine that must've hurt.
10:57 - 11:04 Interesting; were you in some movies, then?
13:01 - 13:14 I apologize for my ignorance, but I thought people who had biologically male bodies and female gender identities were trans women by definition. Is that not the definition of a trans woman? I know you said you're gender fluid but I thought you also said you never use male pronouns, so I'm a little confused.
So glad The Doctor is a patron. It feels right.
VERA!!! RUSSELL IS BACK!!
I think there's also a confounding element, in that people on any side of any dispute tend to find that their own side are nicer people than the other side. This isn't purely an assumption; it's an observation, with a wrongly attributed cause. People on your side are going to be nicer to you, not because they're nicer people, but because you're on their side.
This is not to say all sides are equally good and the truth is exactly in the centre and we should just stop fighting. Some ideas really are better than others and some really do cause massive harm.
But so much discourse, even on important issues -- heck, especially on important issues -- is wasted on explaining away the other side's supposed evil moral character. And so many opportunities are missed to convince people of the truth due to the assumption that if they aren't already on board, they don't count as people. (Have you ever said "Literally no-one in the world thinks X" to someone who clearly did think X? I've been on both sides of that conversation.)
This. All of this.
I was trying to put something further into words, but I'll stick with the endorsement.
I wish people would understand just because you like/or don't like something, doesn't mean that someone else who likes or doesn't like something is a doo doo head and horrible person. I do think sometimes it's important to challenge beliefs like Nazism, autocratic nationalism, etc.... but
I never cared one way or another of the gender of the current Doctor. But I didn't enjoy the Chipnel era because of the focus on real world history. Its just not what I'm looking for in Doctor Who.
That’s a fair reason; I also like Doctor Who more when it goes into the future and/or other worldly, and Chibnall’s era has been fairly earthbound. That said, it’s interesting to me because Chibnall has done some of the better “historical” episodes in my opinion (Rosa, Demons of the Punjab, Nikola Tesla)
That's completely fair. Personally, the historicals have been the best episodes (indeed, that's true for a lot of Who, but I digress) and trying to do something more than simply 'x celebrity meets aliens' is something I admire. Much as I like Capaldi, I think his era suffered because it felt like the show was living in a bubble and not engaging with the times, using its stories as a way to think about them.
i never really cared about The Doctors gender either because back in the past i knew that the character would become female anyway i just didn't know when it would happen but now it has happened i don't really care.
For awhile, I just avoided fan spaces because they were toxic as hell; if you didn't blindly follow the groupthink, you were automatically the enemy and labeled every "ist" in the book. Heaven help you if you're on Tumblr or Twitter and dare to stick up for an artist that draws women in a risque manner: the people who are supposed to be so pure and innocent sink to the lowest levels quick, fast, and in a hurry! You're allowed to like/dislike a cartoon/movie/comic book/whatever, but when you start resorting to personal attacks, threats of violence, doxxing, etc just because someone dares to have a different opinion than you, you need help
Well your example is a little tricky, it’s definitely possible for that type of drawing to be harmful and objectifying. Context is key. Some opinions and actions do need to be criticized.
You are right about the groupthink in fan spaces though, there have been a lot of groups and forums I have decided not to participate in because I see all the people with valid criticisms (or the opposite) being edged out of the conversation, until the entire place is an echo chamber (of the worst kind). Tons of “ist” accusations, just as you described.
@@aikaterineillt9876 Agreed it's alittle bit more complicated and most of it is to blame the fandom itself to put the blame more so than understanding the fandom itself.
Hmm. I leave comments on old videos all the time (though not usually argumentative ones). In my case that has nothing to do with setting out to stir sh_t, and everything to do with *the CZcams algorithm constantly throwing videos at me that are years old.* When I've just watched a thought-provoking video, of *course* I'm going to want to comment on it, regardless of how old it is.
Most of the time I agree with your videos and my comments reflect that. But I think the same probably also holds true for many people who disagree with them. They're likely posting now because CZcams has just thrown the video at them now.
I'm talking pretty specifically about people going through and leaving the same argumentative replies to other comments and/or copy pasting the same thing across multiple old videos. Pretty confident I can tell the difference between that and what you're describing.
@@CouncilofGeeks Cool, thanks. :) I love your videos, there's just the odd element here and there that I disagree with, and I would hate to get accidentally stomped as a griefer for commenting on those.
Don't really have anything to say on the topic, but this is a very interesting insight.
Thank you, this is a great video. Now you have me thinking about what areas I might have been wrong in for a long time and not recognised it. What areas have you been able to identify?
The She-Ra Reboot fandom come to mind
That gave me a lot to think about. Thanks
Honestly, watching this video, sparked less images of the Doctor Who fandom and more of Ghostbusters 2016/Answer the Call where it was not only in the fandom but put by the cast and crew as if you don't like this, it must be because you're a woman hating sexist and there's no other reasoning! "Oh? You think this movie doesn't look funny? Why can't women be funny?" You weren't ALLOWED to have a negative view on that film or even a general disinterest without sexist accusations. Like that movie's publicity was so much confirmation bias and echo chambering that it was sickening tbh.
People need to learn to shut the hell up.
No, not saying we can’t criticise the media or those who made it, but let’s just not be shitty about it.
You like it? You like it, you don’t? You don’t.
Great video. Saw a fantastic example of this- so a CZcamsr (won't say the name) brings out a video where they talk about opinions and in effect how all their value is the same. A female CZcamsr points out this person doesn't feature any women. And boy does this woman (who has had previous issues with this) get jumped on, thus totally negating the point of that video.
I like the message of the video but I just have to say that I love your makeup.
IMO Toxic fandom as you currently described didn't always exist.
Another question I love to ask -- When was *I* hurt like this?
I learnt to type the vitriol from somewhere.
I am suddenly very interested in the potential maths content this channel could have.
I remember years ago after the Sad Puppies fiasco with the Hugo Awards, I attended a panel about what happened. There was a person in the audience who refused to accept there was not some "liberal conspiracy" about it and the resistance from the attempt to get a certain author to win was grassroots. She kept insisting it had to be organized because she couldn't accept that so many people, on their own, stood up against the Sad Puppies.
I remember hearing Larry Correa being interviewed about his involvement with the Sad Puppies. He was really salty because he thought he was never nominated because he leans right. I figured that i would give one his books a try. Turns our Larry was never nominated for a hugo because his books are mediocre. Also i think Larry is sexually attracted to firearms.
I’ve noticed a similar type of thing when a good show starts to go to sh*t.
Those who still claim to like the show tend to attack those with valid criticisms, making it personal and telling them they are bigoted or hateful just because they criticized the poor narrative choices of any given medium.
They confuse fiction and entertainment with reality (often their idealized version), which in some ways, we do expect shows to possess certain amounts of realism and respect for such, but some people go to the degree of expecting personal, idiosyncratic experiences (and fever dream desires regarding those experiences) to be mirrored or appreciated in the things they enjoy, even at the expense of the show’s integrity.
If someone criticizes something they love, it may feel to them that they, themselves, are also being criticized.
Which is understandable to some degree,
but I have seen others being called all types of names, even before they say a word, I have seen novel-length posts by people preemptively defending a dumpster fire (albeit, from an average critic’s standpoint) and stating that anyone who disagrees is “insert derogatory/curse word here”.
They make the mistake of believing that someone’s distaste for a piece of work means they hold certain types of sociopolitical views, when there is a good chance that they don’t.
Of course I have also seen the opposite: unfair criticisms of well-made shows because of various reasons (like they are not inclusive for the sake of being inclusive, or that the writer’s decisions don’t match their fan fiction version-regardless of what that would mean for the overall structure of the story.)
I think some cases are related to ego, as you said, for the example of someone liking the same thing you do, but for the “wrong” reasons, causing you to question and doubt yourself (when really, there is room for both of you to be ‘right’).
However, it seems that other cases are related to some type of trauma and pain that someone experienced (or other ‘touchy’ biases) if they see that handled in a way they like or don’t like in a show, they will react to opposition from others accordingly, even if in every day life, that other person may actually share similar views, just may not seem that way in the vacuum of water-cooler talk about a television series, etc.
(*editing my comments always, because my phone’s keyboard is a genuine POS.)
I think I know a few people/commentators who've fallen into the trap of attempting to find justification for those who appose their views.