Should creators call out bad fan behavior?
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- čas přidán 14. 05. 2021
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Zack Snyder seems like a cool dude. I wish I liked his movies.
That was very well put.
I saw Snyder’s short for the military (that he had to do for Man of Steel). It made me not like him. Seems like a stooge for U.S. capitalist imperialism. But the scenes with Faora were cool.
@@bleekzaXXX Or it could just be on brand with the movie/main character, Superman. As he is (Superman) supposed to stand for truth justice and the American way. Shoot, maybe WB wanted him to do it. But I could be wrong.
@@nancykerrigan except his Superman is not a particularly good representation of what we used to think of Superman. For a really excellent breakdown of that, Maggie Mae Fish has an excellent video specifically about Snyder’s Superman, and how he does not save the cat.
@@bleekzaXXX I think Snyder is probably a nice guy but possibly isn’t the brightest man in the world. And this causes artistic impulses that he may make because he thinks the shot or moments is cool but possibly doesn’t understand the wider implications. Even if you look at him calling out racism from Geeks+Gamers which was good his faithful adaptation of 300 caused some controversy with allegations of racism in Middle Eastern (I think) groups. But I don’t think he is racist he read 300 and saw the artwork and he just didn’t see it.
This is a take that I think deserves way more widespread. Companies will not stop fans, but creators should always hold their fans accountable.
People always hide under the veil of anonymity and torn others apart for the flimsy of reasons. But we should always strive to minimize toxic fan behavior
What can creators do? Call them out? Sure, they can do that, but that's about ALL they can do. At the end of the day, the toxic fan's nasty behavior comes down the the toxic fan's decision to act like an idiot. Creators can say "Stop with x behavior." it doesn't mean a damn thing to the toxic fan. They've already demonstrated that by being toxic in the first place.
The way you put so much effort into trying to have a positive influence on the discussion being had and the general vibe of your sphere of geekdom is really great and admirable.
"If it helps at all, it's worth doing" is a really good philosophy to have. I feel like if more people had that thought process, it would help Internet Discourse™️ a smidge
This vid was quite poignant for me. Another creator I follow did a very personal call out vid this week. His call out was entirely justified, honest and fair. My gut reaction was to go to the other channel and stand up for the guy. But like you say, certain behaviour is wrong and so I stopped myself. Instead I blocked the problematic user and left it at that.
Supporting a creator means respecting them enough to think, what would they do. And in most cases, they wouldn’t get hip deep into a flame war.
I agree, as long as it is justified, I think, every bad behavior should be pointed out.
Just keep in mind that infamous Anita Sarkeesian quote: "EVERYTHING is racist, EVERYTHING is sexist, EVERYTHING is homophobic and you have to point it ALL out!"....
Zach kinda feels like the Bizarro Whedon. Joss makes art that espouses some commendable values but is not a commendable person himself. Zach makes art that glamorizes terrible people, but he himself seems quite chill.
Glamorizes terrible people?
That's a very odd take. I'm not sure at all how u managed to draw that conclusion.
@@sbi168 I don't think he does it deliberately, but a great go-to example that a lot of people have already talked about is how he framed Rorschach in Watchmen: intimidating, powerful, awesome, tenacious, when Alan Moore intended him to be pathetic, disgusting, and abhorrent.
@@sbi168 He's hellbent on making an adaptation of the Fountainhead, a book Ayn Rand wrote about how great it is to be a selfish piece of crap. You can tell he's a hardcore objectivist because he also named his company after the same book. He delayed the movie recently because he's scared of the kinda press it's going to result in given everything is at least visually shifting left and the kind of oligarchy Rand's views supported while not exactly losing power is definitely copping a bad look in the public eye. Maybe he's had an opportunity to reevaluate and move past some terrible philosophical crap that most of us grow beyond in our late teens that Objectivism was designed to nurture and excuse into adulthood by a horrible person who died a joke, but old dogs rarely learn new tricks, so I'm skeptical.
@@RandyBurgertime The greatest commentary I ever heard about Ayn Rand (back when Bioshock was brand new, and geeks were suddenly reading Rand like she was William Gibson), was that everyone has to endure that one friend who reads one of Rand's books, then turns into a selfish asshole for a month before realising that they've been a jerk, and becoming themselves again.
It appears that Zac Snyder's month never ran out, which is too bad - he's made some really good movies, Watchmen being at the top of my list. We can only hope that the events of the last couple of years might have cleared his mind a bit.
@@neuralmute there's a whole chunk of the population whose month never runs out because it gives rich dillholes license to silence their shriveled consciences. Rand was a human disease.
I remember Rebecca Sugar stepping in when Steven Universe fans accused a young woman of fat phobia for drawing a fat character as thin. It was practically bullying.
The steven universe fandom was a mess. It was interesting to be in.
One of the saddest aspects of toxic fandom is some of our favorite actors leaving social media because ignorant people can't differentiate between a character and the real person.
I totally agree with you about the studios' responsibility to protect their employees. Just like any employer has the responsibility to provide a safe working environment. Even after production has wrapped on a movie, the stars are expected to go on press junkets, and "engage" with fans on social media, and go to conventions and sign autographs, etc., to build up 'buzz' for the film. Not to mention how it can hurt a star's overall career to drop off social media, and go out of sight. So taking action to mitigate (as much as possible) the harm done by bigoted fans is just as important as making sure there's a stunt double and medic on set. Even if the studio can't stop all fans from engaging in all toxic behavior, just knowing that people with higher authority have your back can do a lot to keep such experiences from being traumatic.
And when it comes to individual content creators on platforms like CZcams and Twitch, etc., I think individual creators definitely have a responsibility to do what they can to curb toxic behavior in their fans. Because when it comes to individual "influencers" (~shudder~ hate that term), *they* are largely responsible for *cultivating* that fan-base. ...in a way that movie studios creating content for a franchise that is several generations old cannot be (even if they want to).
I would like to take a moment to talk about my own encounter with toxic Doctor Who fandom. Just over a year ago, when the pandemic was really heating up, the BBC put out at a video of all the surviving Doctors paying tribute to NHS workers. As an NHS worker and lifelong Doctor Who fan seeing this video meant so much, I came close to tearing up. But then as I moved through the comment section I saw more and more 'fans' complaining that Jo Martin was there as well as other petty gripes about the current state of the series. They took a tribute to frontline health workers, which probably wasn't even aimed at them, and just used it as a jumping off point to whine about the series. I went from moved to angry very quickly.
the doctor who fandom is a great example of why ive basically walked away from fandom in general now. i had no problem witgh a femal doctor, in fact there were multiple plot elements that could have been brought into play such as a whole new regen energy supply could have had female energy, River giving him at LEAST 9 full regen energy supply both could have been a really easy launch point to say "this is why an established male character is female now" and it would have fit within established canon with no arguments against it even really being possible. but when i try to point out just HOW BAD chibnall is as a showrunner, the only possible explanation for me not liking chibnall can ONLY be i hate women and couldnt POSSIBLY have anything to do with the fact CHIBNALL IS SHIT.
That Cho Chang example makes no sense to me. So... They’re mad that an Asian actress was cast to play someone named ‘Cho Chang’?
Yes! This!!! I always wonder was this a result of movie-based fans who did not read the books and were blind-sided by the existence of the character? Were they consumers who did not realize there is some diversity in the UK to have an Asian character with an Irish accent? I am guessing it wasn’t the later.
Bigotry has no logic
@@renaigh I know, but this was particularly stupid.
@@samuelbarber6177 implying that not all bigotry is equally stupid.
@@renaigh fair point
Wait, THAT'S why IMDB got rid of the message boards? I legitimately didn't know. I just went on there once and it was gone and I've missed them ever since. Granted there was a lot of toxicity, but it was also a great place to discuss movies with cinephiles.
I missed the IMDB message boards especially because I didn't have a lot of people who shared my interest. When I watched some random movie, I could always find convo about it on IMDB.
I was a regular in the IMDB Doctor Who thread and while I definitely miss some of the folks there, there were a LOT of others that only spouted toxicity, pretty much destroying any thread they participated in. Their forums closing is actually one of the factors that eventually led me to this channel. Silver linings and all that.
@@lwaves Yeah, it's kind of shocking that THIS was the thing that made IMDB go nope, when they were fine with the rampant racism, sexism, antisemitism, etc. that a flourished there almost since its inception. It had some of the most toxic rhetoric I've seen on a mainstream site, pervading even in the most innocuous, genuine discussions. I missed them for a while, but it really wasn't worth it I think.
@@secondjulia From what I can gather, it was more a "straw that broke the camel's back" type deal rather than "we'll allow everything else but this is the *one* thing that's completely unacceptable". I remember reading at the time somewhere that apparently IMDB had been toying with the idea of removing the message board feature for quite a while before they finally pulled the plug. People had been abusing the message boards for years; every movie or TV that had even a moderate sized fandom had trolls, flame wars, sock puppets and various other nonsense happening. From what I can tell, the Great Marvel vs DC Dumpster Fire was essentially the point when the people in charge decided they just couldn't handle any more after years of having to deal with the various crap on the vast majority of the boards and that since people had been and would likely continue to misuse the boards, it was ultimately better to just get rid of them all together.
I think it's more that fewer and fewer large companies are willing to fund enough staff to properly police their comment sections & there is an increased responsibility being placed on these companies to remove offensive posts (basically the legislation that compels Reddit, Twitter, Facebook or CZcams to remove offensive material is also applicable to companies like IMDB - the comment section was always secondary to the primary reason people go to the site so isn't worth keeping open when it exposes you to fines / being taken offline / being targeted by advertising boycotts).
One big case that I recall was Vince Gilligan unequivocally denouncing the sexist Breaking Bad fans who kept insulting Skylar. That was really great to see.
I still want to give Vince Gilligan and Anna Gunn great big hugs after that debacle. Skylar felt like the most real character on Breaking Bad to me, and Anna Gunn was savaged for it, mostly by straight dudebros who didn't want her getting in the way of Walt's good time. Poor babies.
@@neuralmute
Reminds me of the way some SOIAF fans have decided that hating in Catelyn is the way to go.
Another wonderful and nuanced take! I was not sure exactly how the video was going to play out from the title (if it was creators fighting with fans via twitter... and/or whether those creators are smaller scale artists or super famous), but I think you covered all the bases in a wonderful way.
There's a lot here, and you're really thoughtful about exploring it. I'm so sorry that people have come and harassed you because of other channels. That sort of thing really bothers me.
I remember the backlash Wil Wheaton received for Wesley Crusher in Star Trek Next Gen. While the character was annoying, he never deserved the hate mail he got from fans and he ended up leaving the series. It was a pity as he is a good actor and he was only a teen at the time when he was playing Wesley Crusher. No actor, especially one so young ever deserves hate mail or threats because of a character they are playing.
I remember him being a really cool voice for Aqualad in the 2003 Teen Titans animated series.
The story had a happy ending since eventually the fans realised that the crappy way the character was written in the early seasons wasn't exactly Wheaton's fault.
Wesley is certainly the closest Star Trek ever got to a canon Sue.
Or should I say Scrappy?
@@alanpennie8013 I'd argue that Neelix is more deserving of dislike in the fandom.
At least Wesley had a Character arc.
@@nekusakura6748
At least Neelix had a character.
Chakotay was a hole in the air.
I think one of the worst things about toxicity when it's left unadressed is how it begins to pull people in. Even people who initially aren't part of the toxicity can eventually be provoked into joining the wretched hellscape that is social media flame wars. Whether because they feel that they're unjustly lumped in with particularly toxic groups or to protect someone they think is being unjustly accused or because they're so sick of seeing two groups fight that they end up creating a third group devoted entirely to verbally harassing the others for verbally harassing each other.
I’ve never grokked humans’ need to hurt and attack others for no reason. Happens in ordinary every day life too, of course, as you know. Such behaviour turns people bitter, sad, and mean - not to mention crawling into a metaphorical cave, and rarely, if ever, peeping out again.
Wonderful and thoughtful video, Vera. Thank you.
Toxic Fandom is killing entertainment and everything we love, we need to rise above that
Yes, but who do you think are the toxic ones ? That solely depends on your personal political stance in the USA today.
@@nickbrough8335 I would say that if you're tossing out death threats, using racist/sexist/anti-LGBT+ language, or just being a general troll, you're probably toxic.
@@calebleland8390 I wouldn't disagree with you. But who was in this case ? You will not find anything even remotely like that wrt Geeks and Gamers/those involved with the Snyder incident.
@@nickbrough8335 I honestly can't speak about Geeks & Gamers. I don't know much about them. As for anyone supporting the Snyderverse, I can say that I was attacked by some "passionate" fans on Tumblr for merely sharing my opinion about the his cut of JL. Apparently, if you don't like the film, you're not allowed to express that opinion in a public forum because it hurts their feelings and they'll jump you for it.
@@calebleland8390 Caleb there are always morons of every persuasion, who don't understand about opinions and discussion/arguments. In the case of Jeremy from G&G he isn't a Snyder cut fan (and frequently says so).
However, most of the you tubers on that charity stream were committed Snyder cut fans who had organised and campaigned.
If you watch jeremy's videos on what happened from his perspective, its also a lot more complicated than it appears and Snyder was warned that publicising G&G involvement would have consequences and they removed all H&G branding before hand (including the reference of the donation page although that was originally missed). The livestream wasn't on a G&G channel either.
Personally, I couldn't care less about any of the Snyder/Wheaton films or the DC universe.
It should be mentioned that a lot of people also disliked Ghostbusters for Melissa McCarthy specifically who's basically seen as female Adam Sandler at this point. The whole affair is just a mess.
Talking about G&G, as far as I'm aware, most of the "Anti SJW" content comes from the founder Jeremy Griggs, I don't know how much the other members even contribute to that. But my God, that one guy is such a textbook example of a fake-outrage paranoid reactionary you could think he's actually a parody.
Well yes but, on the hand, yes, and on a gradient. Zack Synder saying I Don't Know You to their faces was a nice first step.
Ghostbusters 2016 was a meh, middle of the road movie. But the hostile "all criticism is sexist" marketing vs the toxic dude bro war was exhausting.
I am sure some people found it entertaining, didn't seem like my cup of tea and never watched the entire movie. have seen some clips and it seemed like the humor wasn't very snappy and I was not a big fan of the characters. I think (just from the clips I have seen) that Melissa and Chris' characters were the only characters I enjoyed.
In my opinion, part of being a decent human being is standing up for people who can't stand up for themselves. When a fandom or a part of a fandom goes toxic against a person or group of people, then a good person will use their influence in that fandom to combat that toxicity. But staying silent isn't always a bad thing to do either; sometimes by speaking up, one can just make things worse. It's a balancing act where you can never really know the outcome until it's too late to change direction. It takes both wisdom and guts to handle these kinds of situations, so I understand why so many people and companies try to avoid getting involved. I just wish more people had that combination of wisdom and guts to try and stop toxic fandom before it starts. Snyder surprised me by doing this, and maybe this is a sign that he's changing; but that remains to be seen.
I think calling out general trends in fan behavior is okay, just don’t call out specific fans because then you’re signing them up to get harassed by your other fans.
That's a good shout.
Not watched the video yet, but from the title and 5 seconds of consideration: yes they should
One of my favourite metal bands is on their 3rd vocalist. I’ve been a fan since the first, and I’ve seen all the hate, anger, abuse and vitriol that has gone on. The first vocalist was a classically trained opera singer who helped create the band’s unique sound, she was replaced by a more rock/pop alto who couldn’t hit the same high notes as the first singer. Their current singer is a mix of classically trained soprano and full metal voiced alto.
All members of the band, past and present, have been asked in interviews about their vocalists and the wars among the fans, and all of them have said, “guys, stop it, get over it, grow up. If you preferred one over another, fine. If you can’t listen to one of the other singers, then don’t.” And they’ve also said they’re sick of the in-fighting.
But in every forum and fan-site, there are moderators who have to regularly take down posts where fans bash their hated vocalist(s) and each other. It’s sad when the people themselves who are involved in these relationships move on, but their fan base doesn’t.
I think creators should acknowledge when these kind of problems occur, and should call out this kind of behaviour. Not overly, not go on and on about it, but should acknowledge it and gently tell their fans to stow their shit, don’t be dicks, people can like whatever they like even if it’s not what you like, can’t we all just agree that stuff is awesome and while we can certainly debate and compare positives and negatives, we shouldn’t get mad at others just because they don’t share out exact opinion.
I think I know exactly which band you're talking about, but I haven't really seen myself the amount of hate the second vocalist got, just how bad did it get?
@@Sugarman96 what I remember about the second vocalist was not so much the criticism of her voice (although that was there) but that CERTAIN FANS had gotten it into their heads that she was a terrible person who resented the amount of control the bandleader had over the group’s sound, that she was chaffing at the punishing schedule and would lash out at fans onstage.
The band leader has said that putting a new singer through two years of touring before they knew each other very well was a mistake, and he would not do that again.
The story seems to have a happy ending tho, because the third singer is a goddess and she’s been happily enthroned since 2013. Floor can do literally anything, and she seems to love her bandmates. I have hope this last one will last. Sad to lose Marko tho
I also am confident I know what band you are talking about. It's funny I never once thought about how people would behave regarding the addition of the second singer over the years but now that you mentioned it I'm having this headslapping "Well of course they did!" moment.
I personally liked the second singers work with the band. It was very different from what came before but it was very good. What I liked most about it was that is wasn't good simply because it was different or something that I viewed as better. It was different and also happened to be awesome, just like their original work. Bit of a win for me as I can listen to their original and new work and enjoy both.
Ah yes, band wars. I'm really glad that I enjoy all three of the singers you're talking about, and was never interested in all the bitchy politics. I'm just here for good music!
It makes me think of the fandom wars going on around a certain other band who hasn't exactly changed their frontman, but has *definitely* changed his look, the rest of the lineup, and their sound with almost every album, because why the hell not? Some of us love the variety and the surprises, since Mr. Mask can't seem to write a bad song, and others just want the first album over and over again, because nothing since has been "metal" enough. Dudes, if you don't like it, don't listen!
I think it's prudent to step in if people are starting to get death threats, abuse, etc. Especially with content where YT, Twitter, Twitch aren't taking appropriate action to protect these people and channels from harassment, false reporting, and comment spam.
It's highly situational, but this problem really needs to be hit on all sides when it begins to rear its ugly head. Content creators get hit for FAR FAR less. It's time these abusers take responsibility for their actions as well. Even if it's just a time out.
Supernatural has some fabulous fans, but they also have some INCREDIBLY toxic fans. I've dipped in to some fandom social media, but I've ended up distancing myself from almost all of it- and will probably never go to an SPN convention- because the toxic ones are so deadly to my enjoyment of the show.
Honestly, the only minor toxicity I have experienced from other Supernatural fans came from shippers. But that seems to be par for the course in any fandom.
@@calebleland8390 shippers do make up the majority of the toxic fans I've dealt with, but it's not all minor. They've chased people off social media platforms, doxxed other fans, and verbally attacked the stars' wives at conventions for supposedly being beards. The stars have called fans out for it, but the show as a whole has been silent and has even played it up- especially toward the end of the show's run.
@@jenisedai I've heard about some of these occurrences. It's a shame that more creators won't stand up to such people.
I liked the Ghostbusters reboot. In part because the original hasn't really aged well for me... And a kinda realization that the cartoon and toys were more significant to my childhood than the movies. And the reboot felt a lot closer to the cartoon. And didn't have the baggage the original movies have... And I mean... None of the movies have been really anything more than an ok movie.
The extended cut is a little more coherent, and I feel like some of the hate came from Sony putting out terrible trailers. I'm not sure what a reboot does to invalidate the original to begin with. Those movies are still there. It's not like they couldn't go back to the same continuity, and they did.
I think it is a certain kind of priviledge to be in a position where you have fans, and having that priviledge comes with a responsibility to speak up about toxic behaviour.
Yes, it may cause a creator to lose some fans, but it also shows the remaining fans you care enough to guide them, and in the end, you might even get new fans who value your openess and respect the fact that you've stood up and defended those who need defending.
That's an interesting way of looking at it. How do you apply this to fans of a franchise? Whose fans are they really and who is responsible for calling them out? The company, creators, or the people who are more visible (actors etc)?
@@december3305 I think the creators, directors and actors, depending on the situation. The people who know the franchise and develop it, and hopefully understand why someone becomes a fan of their work. The people who represent the franchice in conventions, in interviews and such. If it's a franchice that has seen loads of changes over several years, the creators who are currently active, and those who are most loved within the fandom. It may be difficult to name just one person responsible, when the franchice is huge and fanbase widespread. But I think anyone with any authority, if they see toxic behaviour which is against the values of the franchice or clearly harmful to other people, should speak up. I don't mean they need to dig through to the deepest darkest corners of tumblr to look for possible issues, but if it comes to their attention that someone is being mistreated, they should say something. If nobody speaks up, things just keep happening.
Thanks for the reply :) I wasn't asking because I disagree in case that wasn't clear, more because I've never come to a satisfying answer. It's bothered me that a lot of this conversation has focused on the creator/artist/celebrity (aka their silence) rather than the actual problematic behaviour (e.g. individuals threatening harm to someone), to the point where I felt that the individuals weren't being held responsible at all. But actually, your point makes complete sense, because the logical next step is to find someone in a position to hold them accountable. And aside from the social media platforms that the content is being posted on (because let's face it, realistically they will never be able to fully police it), the creator/producer/actor etc have the loudest voice and means to reach the fans.
Started watching your content recently, you showed up on my recommended list and I'm glad I clicked. You have an interesting view point and I'm glad you exist and are sharing your views. Out of the videos I've seen you seem to strive to be open, honest, and respectful but also fair to the topics and the people you cover. I like that.
Side note, I love your color choices, from your amazing background, to finding such complimentary colors work so well together. The over all aesthetic of your videos shows a lot of thought and time that goes into making the videos look amazing. I look forwards to future videos and catching some of the older ones.
But yeah, I was talking to an actor from one of my favorite shows recently on one of his streams and someone brought up the discourse and he blinked and went, what are you talking about. And everyone went quiet so I had to explain shipping wars/flame wars, stans, otps, shippers, and all the weirdness that came from people squabbling over their personal takes, likes, and dislikes of characters and scenes and plot lines and demanding everyone see it from their point of view.
I mean... I write fan fics, and once got told to change my tags or they'd get my account banned and deleted because I wrote their otp wrong. And I went, listen, I'm not changing my stuff for you, if you don't want to see my content, just search with - in front of my user name, it removes me from your search options. And it quickly devolved into death threats on multiple platforms because how dare I not bow down and accept they were 100% right. And I took a me approach and laughed. Hard. They got mad and I went, listen, do you understand what you just said... you're attempting to tear me down, which means you yourself believe I'm some how above you, and that makes you feel small and you don't like that, so your lashing out at me to make yourself feel better about something that you have to own in yourself and fix in you. That turned into "graphic" death threats on multiple platforms.
I mean... I'm one of those, if I don't like something, I don't hate on it, I just stop watching it. Other people can love it, so why lash out about it? I mean, why have people forgotten that if they don't like a show or a choice in the show, then they can just behave like civilized people and just walk away. -shrugs- Maybe it's just me. But it kinda reminds me of high school in a weird way.
This really popular kid who'd been kinda mean to me for years was sitting alone one day in history class, and everyone's laughing at him and I sat down and he's like, go a head, make fun of me too. And I looked him up and down and blinked and went ... why? He opened his mouth and showed me the braces he'd just gotten. And I went, and still not seeing a reason to make fun of you. He looked at me like I'd grown a second head and I'm sitting there going, am I just not getting something, because honestly that happens a LOT to me. But eventually it dawned on me, everyone was making fun of him for getting braces, and I went, with the multiple of things I should be mad about and the things I could make fun of you for, why would I pick you noticing that your teeth were a little crooked, and taking steps to repair that and make yourself look and feel better? That makes no sense to me.
He backed off and we eventually got to a good place around one another, but I just don't get this notion of singling someone out for a factor they can or can't control and making fun of or getting angry about it. I love Doctor Who. I don't love every choice made, but I still watch it and wish the cast and crew well. Because in the end the show isn't just for me. It's for everyone. -shrugs- I just... maybe it's the brain damage talking, but I don't get why that seems to be so hard for so many to get. Granted it also could be because of the brain damage and the fact I have to consciously control all my emotions that I'm a tad analytical about my emotions and my passions. -shrugs-
But you do raise an important question here. Should creators do something... and my take is maybe. Not every creator is going to handle it the best either way. But that's like I noticed some of my fans going after someone in my comments for not being die hard about my story choices. I went, leave them alone. They're welcome to their opinions, and I like having a discourse where we can talk it out. Because we should be able to talk to one another with out devolving into petty things. I mean I get some vile comments from time to time and I'll often talk to them about why they felt that way. But there are days when the wrong person says the wrong thing and sets me off on a bad day and I've been known to tear into someone. I don't like that about myself, but we're all human and trying to learn and grow.
Like I told my grandpa when we got on a topic once, I believe only two people's opinions matter in your life. Your own, and what ever higher power you believe in. If you can accept and live with what those two people think of you and your actions, you're golden. If you can't, either learn to accept it or work on the things that bother you.
-is attempting to do something like that by commenting more on videos I watch. I know how much creators thrive on fan interactions and comments to help them sometimes. People don't always understand the power they have in their words. And you'd think we'd not have forgotten that as a species. But it's always nice to see videos like this one where people ask interesting questions that they put a well reasoned and well researched argument with their question. Thank you for your time and work you put into this video.
I was very active in the Big Finish forums pretty much from the beginning. There were always arguments, and they only got worse when the show was brought back in 2005. But it was when Michelle Gomez was finally revealed as the Master that things just went supernova. The team had just had enough, so they closed the forums. It was a sad day, but if you can't play nice then you get your toys taken away.
The other big fandom incident that nearly made me walk away completely was after Captain America: Civil War. The whole Team Cap/Team Iron Man got taken far too seriously by so many people. Tumblr and AO3 in particular were absolute dumpster fires of hate.
Oh yes, and then we have the death threats against Amanda Abbingdon for playing the canonical character of Mary Morstan, who was canonically married to John Watson. All because she got in the way of their slash Johnlock head-canon.
I wish I didn't need fandom as much as I do.
Very proud of you 👏 I'd tell you that the haters gonna hate which is an easy thing to say when you're on the outside looking in. I could tell you to ignore them. Just block them and move on. Again easy when it isn't about you. I will tell you that you're loved by people who don't give a damn about what others say about you. My suggestion is skip the crap and read the love and interesting discussions. Love 💜🧡💚💛
My respect for Zack Snyder has just gone up HUGELY. Sure, he's a very successful guy, with enough clout in the industry to recover from any fallout from this, but even so... that took some massive balls.
There are certainly other CZcams channels devoted to 'geeky' subjects that I've ended up hitting the 'Don't Recommend this Channel' button on, once it became clear that they were very much a part of the Geeks&Gamers 'anti-SJW' ideology. It's just an easier way for me to deal with them; I don't want to waste my time or energy on listening to that stuff or even coming at them for spouting it (especially knowing that all they'd do is write me off as another of the Minions of Their Nemesis anyway, because they believe what they want to believe and don't let pesky things like facts or even basic manners get in the way.) At the very least, I'm depriving them of a viewer - a speck of dust in the universe in the grand scheme of things, I know, but it is at least something I can do that they can't just shut down with insults and more vitriol.
Zack comes across as an admirable person.
I only wish I liked his films more than I do
Sadly moral integrity doesn't always line up with creative brilliance.
Great topic. I think yes... for sure. But self accountability is so far removed from fame culture it’s a whole conversation....
On a brighter note I am LOVIN AND LIVIN for your make up!!! Looks amazing on you and that green lipstick?? Chefs kiss 🧑🍳 💋
There seem to be 4 categories here: Toxic fans bullying creatives in the thing they are a fan of. Toxic fans bullying a rival group of fans in the same fandom. Toxic fans bullying a rival fandom & toxic fans bullying the creatives of a rival fandom. Corporations often encourage fandom wars, because people fight them by buying stuff. Rivalries within the fandom can cost them, so attempts to calm things down without offending people are common. (Depends on industry though. Sports runs on these rivalries.) For creatives, corporations usually don't care. How that goes depends on their relationships. Sometimes, fans are just picking up on toxic behavior from creatives. (Think Kevin Sorbo's attempts to start shit with Lucy Lawless.)
I absolutely agree when it comes to both positive and negative opinions being capable of turning harmful, and the acknowledgement that negative opinions can at least be more obviously so. This is a big part of why I tend to try (not always succeeding, admittedly) to both find something to genuinely like about something I overall dislike, and something to critique about something I overall enjoy. I also try to not feel obligated to dismiss a work entirely for one problem, or defend it unconditionally because I enjoy it overall despite that one issue. I feel like there's this pressure (especially in online fandom and social media) that everything is either unmitigated trash or infallible perfection. You can't just hate something, you have to rail against it with every fiber of your being. You can't just like something, you are duty-bound by doing so to defend it from any criticism it faces. And if your opinion isn't in line with a popular one, expect to be accused of defending things you never defended, panning things you never panned, or both, by those who hold those extreme opinions. Obviously this doesn't hold to everyone, all generalizations are false after all. But the trend seems bad for both honest media consumption and for people who create media. Flaws can be ignored and criticism dismissed as "unpleasable fan whining", but actual cases of fans getting worked up over nothing can turn people away. Just... people, try to take media as it is, criticize what problems there are to the extent the problems are worth criticizing, and remember: nothing is wholly perfect, and relatively little is wholly garbage. I personally try to find something to like in everything, without ignoring serious flaws, because it just makes you a happier person to enjoy things than to be outraged, and we should all save that outrage and stress for things that actually deserve it.
I agree. I would like to see more reminders not to harass people, even if it's just a token effort like a couple of lines at the end of the video. I think it will go a long way. It won't prevent those who are determined to do it, but it may help stop those who will do it on impulse. I heard that most homicides are done on the spur of the moment. Something happens to someone that they get so mad they kill even when they normally wouldn't. That's why the Hulk rages at things happening to him at that moment and not at something like climate change. Rage can be quick to build up but also quick to disipate.
Very thoughtful exploration of a topic that is complicated to get a hold of. You are right, there are so many different platforms and situations. I agree that even though it isn't possible to stop all the toxic fans from attacking, any mitigation is worth it. Producers, directors, studios do have a responsibility to the actors they hire to support them and protect them from the public that they thrust them in front of if there is a problem. Especially young people like Katie Leung.
Why'd you throw that two-week old popcorn out? That's still perfectly good!
This is not just a fans going out of control for fictional fandoms. It happens with real world people too. I've seen it Taylor Swift fans. Fans have outed people on forums that couldn't come out do being in a unsafe place or having a very religious family. Another example is if I tell some Taylor Swift fans I'm not a big fan of her, they act like I kicked their dog and laughed about it.
Look at what happened to Chris Pratt in Avengers Infinity war or the guy who played Eugine in The Walking Dead. Those characters made bad choices, and fans got mad at the actors. The actors were just following a script. I may have not liked the choices made by the character, but I'm mad at the character not the actor.
You have no right looking that good in green lipstick. Unfair. 😉
Creators should call out bad fan behaviors because toxic behaviors shouldn't be endorsed and normalized. Rebecca Sugar was in the right to speak out against toxic Steven Universe fans that were driving a person to attempt suicide. Achievement Hunter was in the right to speak out against the racism towards Fiona and where in the right to denounce Ryan Haywood and his toxic defenders.
"People who like the current era of the show and love Jodie Whittaker and think Chris Chibnall is doing solid work are just as capable of toxic behavior as people who hate Jodie Whittaker and Chibnall." You are so right, omg. I personally like the recent series well enough, but I've seen extremes from both sides. I've seen *more* from the Chibnall-hating side, but I've definitely seen a lot of "toxic positivity" in regards to Jodie Whittaker and the recent run of the show.
It’s EXACTLY the same with the Star Wars fanbase. Big groups in general are bound to have some toxic members but if you give them something to hate (like each other or the creators of the new thing) it can get a lot worse.
The similarities are uncanny.
Yeah. I haven’t really seen much Toxic Positivity (then again I wouldn’t really know what to look out for) but I don’t doubt it’s real... this is then Internet. It’s just the Toxic Negative crowd are a heck of a lot louder.
I think there just happens to be a lot more of us that dislike Chibnall and his 'work'.
As the viewing figures reflect...
I had a ridiculously hard time finding a place online anywhere to share critical views about recent Who without having to deal with extremes. Even most that I found ok, eventually veered off at some point (I mean in the comments.) Wish it weren’t so divisive that those of us who’d like to discuss both pros & cons weren’t hitting a wall. (Yes, cons are way louder. also usually way off topic.) Personally adored the whole setup, so hopeful, but truly disappointed with execution, and honestly I still don’t get why. Just mentioning,. But hey if anyone knows a good space, aside from this lovely channel, to have a real conversation, pls let me know :)
@@lcflngn I know, and there are some people that just can’t go five minutes without complaining. Literally, you could be on a Doctor Who Facebook post about the figgin’ Horror of Fang Rock and there’ll always be the obligatory ‘New Series Bad’.
Now, I quite like the modern era myself, but even I’ll admit there are some faults with it but just keep civil and keep it where appropriate, that’s all I ask
I think in a way, it’s the old adage: “With great power, comes great responsibility.“ I think it’s clear that creators do have a certain amount of control over their fans, so if anyone calm their fans down, it’s probably the creators, themselves, because in a way, if you’re silent about something, you’re permissive of that. Even if you’re not, you’re basically saying: “It’s not worth getting fussed over.” And you’re basically saying it’s okay, which is irresponsible if you have the power to change their minds. But that’s my two cents.
You'd be surprised. A lot of toxic fans, once they're called out by a creator, will then turn on that creator too. It can get nasty. The company I work for has managed to mitigate some of that by encouraging the developers to interact with the fans but even that can only give limited success. Ultimately it comes down to the fans, and their behavior, and the fact that it's THEIR CHOICE to act that way, and in the US at least, it's also their constitutional right even if it's wrong. *edit* You'd be stunned how fast you could go from "Genius" to "screw that moron".
@@paulwebb2851 still, if anyone can change them, the creators can, so I think they should do what they can. I admit, you can just be accused of pandering to whoever.
@@samuelbarber6177 See that's where the problem comes in. A lot of how things are done has to do with optics. Every decision DOES have to be made very carefully. How far do you go in calling out bad behavior? What steps do you take? How do you avoid dealing with it without accusations of pandering to one side or the other? How do you resolve this? You don't, ultimately, because no matter HOW many times some people are called out, they won't care, in fact they'll take the calling out as a badge of honor. To give you an example, if a fan of my work were to tell someone else something like "You should just commit suicide and do the world a favor" (pulling that as an example because this has been relevant recently) So now I step up and say something. I'm opposed to suicide in general, and so I say something about the toxic behavior. Now, the person who made that comment to begin with will say that I'm against people's right to choose to live or die...but there's still something else there...because now the toxic fan has something else to their credit...they've created enough ruckus that the person they're a fan of has noticed them...and to some folks, that is a reward in and of itself.
@@paulwebb2851 yeah... I see where your coming from. Many people on the Internet will do it just to get attention and hide behind anonymity, especially since, let’s be honest here, calling someone out isn’t going to do anything to them. If all you had to do to get people to stop something was just to say: “Hey knock it off” history would look very different. There’s also the fact of where exactly do you draw the line between passionate fan criticism to hate mongering and abuse?
Also, sorry that happened to you, that doesn’t sound pleasant.
@@samuelbarber6177 In this business you develop a thick skin or you fail. It's that simple. You have to learn to ignore the haters and do what needs to be done. It's hard doing this job, because sometimes you HAVE to do something you KNOW is going to anger the fans. When, for example, you have a death scene of a fan favorite...the fans are NOT going to like seeing it happen, but as a writer I realize that if there is no risk, there is no heroism. Sometimes, no matter how much you wish it otherwise, the hero falls. The good guy does NOT ALWAYS win. And I can guarantee that when those moments drop, the nastiness that erupts from even the most normally civil of fans can be...disturbing.
Personally, I think that calling out people who have smaller channels than your own is seldom going to be appropriate. I mean, sure if someone is spreading dangerous misinformation or spreading hatred of groups or abusing their animals or children on camera, then yes, take action. But in general I think people with larger channels just make themselves look like bullies if they issue a takedown of someone with a smaller subscribership. That said, I am personally hoping that eventually we will reach a time when enough people are upset about hate going uncountered that the "corporate calculus" against speaking out about racist/sexist/etc attacks shifts.
I would have everyone look back to 1969. Stan Lee created a superhero called Falcon. Letters were sent to Marvel denouncing the idea of black superheroes, and Stan Lee himself addressed it in Stan's Soapbox, calling this type of thinking wrong and calling those fans out. If Stan could do this over 50 years ago, creators can do it now. Call them out!
And I say good riddance to the old ibdb boards. I got sick of the constant "stupid SJW" and other moronic rhetoric that was tossed around on a daily basis. I went to another web board after they shut down, and it got just as bad. Sexist fans who refused to accept Jodie as The Doctor, not on her performance, but because she was a woman. Being told time and again that "true fans" hate modern Who and Star Wars. Well, I've been a fan of both since the 70s, am I not a true fan? I would give up altogether on the fandoms I love were it not for people like you who remind me that there are great people out there who love the things I love and support each other. Thank you, Councilperson.
Remembering that the word "fan" is derived from "fanatic", that any large fan base has some elements of negative behaviors are hardly surprising. That corporations, which are in the business of getting as much money out of a fan base as possible, don't call out certain negative elements of the fan base is hardly surprising. A lack of consistency defines the human species, and there will always be those who violently oppose the existence of others within the group. We will always be stuck with petty little self-important shits who depend on their shit-slinging to justify their own existences.
We ALWAYS talk about Freedom of Speech but not enough about Responsibility of Sppech.
Many people do/ say things without ( necessarily) thinking about Others: and don't want Consequences
If we want to be able to say things; we take responsibility for reactions
If others are hurt by what you say: you should have some responsibility/ accountability
As far as takedowns and unleashing your fans ... I've heard enough YT creators explicitly tell their fans, _while doing that takedown._ where they expect their fans to draw the line, what is and isn't acceptable behavior. It is most definitely possible, and if you do it right at the beginning, you're much less likely to have to react to your fans misbehaving, because they'll _know_ your position going in. And as a side benefit, it makes it harder for other people to blame you for that misbehavior, should it still happen. Just ... don't do a wink, wink, nudge, nudge with that, or you'll lose all those benefits.
I really appreciate your topics. The conversations are important and I've learned a lot from your viewpoints. Thank you.
A very good video - enjoyed your insight. Thank you.
I can totally relate! ... I'm not even close to being in the same league as a popular, or even semi-popular CZcamsr with rowdy fans by any stretch of the imagination, let alone a Hollywood director, but as a writer of a moderately popular Harry/Hermione fanfiction, I've had to step up a few times to police some of the harsher comments at Wattpad and Ao3 from people who hate Ron/Hermione shipping.
Considering there's a blog from a Ron fan with a somewhat threatening rant tearing me down with a picture of a bloody knife next to my real name (which they got from my Quora profile), I could fall back on their Hate as an excuse to let my fans run wild, but I've got a brand reputation to uphold! Lol! 😆
Disclaimer: JKR sucks! ... I'm nonbinary. But I'm not going to let her bigotry ruin my enjoyment of the one good thing she created.
I wast aware of the event as I'm not super active online with social groups and am glad I found out about it through a well thought out video rather than a rant.
Also love your lipstick. 👽
As a DC fan, I'm truly sorry for the flame wars. Snider's DC movies are terrible, so I agree. I also haven't watched them, but I've seen enough video essays to know about them, however.
I do agree that creators should call out fans. I honestly don't think this happens enough. I also think it is fair to call out problematic practices if creators.
Racism is also NEVER okay.
Great video! Love the Tonberry in the back.
Interesting topic, can't wait to watch this
Its always worth calling out something that you feel is wrong. I think it depends how you go about it too on whether its a genuine attempt to make a change or ends up causing drama. He seemed to call that out in a pretty professional way I think. Its always worth having these conversations.
To me it depends on the situation. While I get that you can’t control all your fans, if you had an influence over them that directly or indirectly caused them to do a harmful thing then you need to apologize regardless of exactly how responsible you think you are. If you’re famous then you have power and with great power comes great responsibility. I understand no one can exert so much control over so many people but I think you as a human being should just be careful what you say and do.
CZcamsrs have no right to use their fanbases as a weapon of harassment and I think they should be held responsible for attacks they cause whether they claim it was intensional or not.
That description you have with Ghostbusters is exactly the problem I have with the media covering The Last Jedi. Instead of considering the possibility that the movie just didn’t work for some people they aggressively publicly shamed the entire fanbase as a toxic horrible thing for stuff that were being done by a vocal minority. They also took Rise of Skywalker and said that it was exclusively the fault of the racist sexist fanbase instead of even considering the possibility that the people doing the bad things were a vocal minority and that the movies just didn’t work for the fanbase.
Yes, creators should denounce hateful behavior, absolutely! Ive started making a point not to use the phrase “toxic fans” because that still validates these terrible, hateful people as someone who cares about and loves the content when in pretty much any fandom, if you’re a horrible person the creators aren’t particularly interested in calling you someone who cares about their work. For me at this point, there’s no such thing as toxic fans. There’s fandom, and there’s hatedom, and the people in the Hatedom are not fans of any kind, toxic or otherwise. I’m trying to argue toxicity isn’t actually representative of any genuine fans of any kind of content, and as such the term “toxic fans” is a misnomer that legitimizes the hatred from certain people by implying it comes from genuinely caring about the thing, even if they’re caring about it in a “toxic way”. And I love the idea that being part of a fandom is flexible. As far as I’m concerned, if you like a thing and you express that enjoyment of it through non-toxic actions and words, you’re a fan.
If you spread hate towards the creator or other fans, you are not part of the fandom-at that point you’ve just become toxic and you’re using your supposed love for something as an excuse. Criticism is valid but there’s a very important distinction between criticism and hate, although the former is often used to justify the latter which I find quite disturbing. Fans critique because they want the things they love to get better...non-fans blindly insult, threaten etc under the guise of the same claim. It doesn’t matter if their love for the thing is real, if someone can’t find a way to not be hateful I believe they genuinely don’t count as a fan.
Sadly, it's nothing new, but the internet makes it all happen more quickly and ferociously. When Star Trek: Generations came out back in the 1990s, Malcolm McDowell received hate mail just because he played as scripted the character who killed Captain Kirk.
If the internet had existed in the 1960s, I have no doubt that Dick Sargent would receive lots of hate simply because he took over the role of Darren on Bewitched after the original Darren, Dick York, was unable to continue for health reasons. There are still fans that rant about this on the Bewitched groups I'm on.
I agree that creators should make some effort in reducing bad fan behavior. Obviously, creators can't police everything that fans do and it would be unreasonable to expect that level of micromanaging, but yeah, even the occasional general statement would be good. Not every situation requires a Snyder level of call out, but if the situations call for it then step up.
I do think creators should call out their toxic fandoms especially if said toxicity flies in the face of what the media is trying to do. You can't have a show/game/ect about love and kindness be filled with people who harass, doxx, and send death threats to people and not have outsiders seeing your silence as a cowardice. I understand people not being able to speak up out of fear of loosing their jobs because someone at the top told them to keep their mouth shut but if you are in charge, why not say something? If anything its good PR for you and your product.
Very well said
I've been wondering this for a while there's a cuddly toy in the backround with big yellow eyes and carrying what looks like a lantern it looks like a creature from the final fantasy series, I've been wondering if it is a creature from the final fantasy series
You are correct. That is a "Tonberry" although I may have spelled it incorrectly.
@@slowandsafegaming4126 that one doesn't turn you into a frog by any chance does it
@@samanthapatrick4345 It may just. I remember it more so for moving slowly towards you and then doing massive damage with its tiny blade.
I often end up trying to defuse these types of issues at the source. In some of the fan groups I'm in I see a lot of anger/upset when a new series comes out that is in the same genre or theme but looks worse/does things differently. And even though I used to feel that way and still understand why they're upset I will nowadays go in and argue that if you don't like the look of it you don't have to watch it/read it, and it's existence does not detract from the value that the series you already has for you. Because that anger and upset at the concept of the series can be a starting point for developing hatred of the individual creators or actors involved and I'd rather they chilled out about it now that risk getting to that point. No idea if my input has any effect at all but I think it's something those of us who are aware of the problem can do from inside the fandoms to reduce the attacks.
In this case with Zack Snyder I think if he didn’t want to be associated he shouldn’t have accepted participation in the fundraiser, and be a decent human being instead of a schmuck. Distancing himself on the stream was very uncool. He did it in the most idiotic insensitive way. Considering it was a fundraiser for his charity, it was even more despicable. It took all of the enthusiasm out of those who had turned up to donate. It was just very poor. Geeks & Gamers should have shut that stream down. I know Jeremy stepped out to allow it to continue but in principle it should have been cancelled. WB haven’t had a great track record with these kinds of issues recently but I suggest they learn quickly. As you said, a PR manager would be a good start.
I remember when that happened period. I can see creators not wanting to be tied with a segment of fandom that is toxic and in some cases preaches hate. But you're absolutely right most of the time most companies or creators are not going to call out their fan base because they don't want to risk them turning away from the property or outright start attacking it. it's true you can be on either side of an argument and have toxicity Take Star Trek Disco i see fan who love it (Like me) and fans who hate it i've seen both be Toxic. But in a way i feel CZcams should call a lot more of toxic content on the platform. Sometimes I feel guilt for being as big of CZcams Watchers I am because I'm giving my time an attention to a company that allow certain kinds of stuff on here that are just out-and-out bad. It's not a matter of opinion it's straight hatred but does that make me complicit in it that I still watch CZcams. I think that's for each person to decide it's like death of the author it's up to you to decide if you want to keep reading this person's work. Another amazing video thank you
While I'm absolutely in favour of having creators who are knowledgeable about the kind of toxic behaviour their fandom might be engaging in call out said toxic behaviour, we also need to be careful not to get into the habit of looking at situations where a fandom gets out of control and just settle for blaming the creators for apparently not doing enough to stop it. By going too far in that direction, we risk losing sight of the actual root of the issue.
Fandoms aren't comprised of toddlers. Most people in most fandoms are of an age where they are (or should be, at least) *perfectly aware* of what is acceptable behaviour and discourse, even on the internet. The fundamental root of this whole issue is that, for some reason, there are always certain subsections of fans in I think any given fandom that simply don't care. These people are willing (and, let's be honest, sometimes even eager) to engage in behaviour that they absolutely know is unacceptable at best and downright dangerous/harmful to others at worst. And creators can only do so much to distance themselves from them. Creators can't control their fans and (unless they actively encourage fan behaviour) I don't think they should be held entirely responsible for what their fans do. Once you put something out into the world, you can't control how others will perceive it and react to it, unless what you've put out is some kind of specific "call to arms". The fans themselves, the ones who know that what they're doing is objectively wrong and yet do it anyway, are the ones who should ultimately be held accountable - not just by the creators of the relevant fandom but by everyone who observes the situation. As it is, I can't help but feel the current tendency is to just treat any given fandom as though it were comprised of an uncontrolled mob of animals who are slaves to their impulses and completely incapable of comprehending their behaviour and its consequences, as opposed to a collection of individual human beings who are completely capable of understanding what is and what isn't acceptable behaviour towards a fellow human being. Sitting behind a screen or being a part of a group should not be enough of an excuse for ignoring what is objectively harmful and toxic behaviour, and yet it seems we're perfectly happy to accept it as enough of an excuse.
Interesting discussion.
I watch a lot of dramas from Thailand and recently one of the channels had started this campaign about negative comments. There's a short featuring a popular actor or an interview about how reading negative comments are handled. What I like is that they include lgbtqa+ actors. But at the same time there's a weird fan culture with their shows in which shipping is heavily monetized. So while it seems like a good step, it's not enough.
And fans should always hold creators and their corporate masters accountable. Two way street.
If you want my time and my money, best treat what I love with care. And best show fans who are permitting you to make a living at this some modicum of appreciation, if not respect. If not, we can and will call you out for your nonsense. And we will walk, taking our time, eyeballs and money with us. That's the real world. You are owed nothing except what we are willing to give.
This is one of the reasons why I don't like fandoms and why I don't often associate with fandoms. Just scroll through a comment section for a trailer or review video or news video and you'll see just how toxic fans can be (Midnight's Edge videos has some of the worst comment sections, and I feel like their videos are purposefully designed to stoke that toxicity). Also, I remember hearing about a Ghostbusters 2016 TV spot that had a review quote from somewhere that said, "Girls rule, get over it!" or something like that, and that also caused more "backlash".
My view of Snyder as a person went up because of that ( not massively keen on his films still)
Okay, I liked BVS (the first step is admitting you have a problem), however, it sounds like, as an impartial observer, those flame wars were more entertaining than the movie!
This was thoughtfully laid out. IMHO, would be good to see employers taking better care of employees across the _board_ and letting your character actor choices be harassed without stepping forward and saying 'this isn't cool' was always inexplicable to me. The infighting? I dunno, I'm cynical enough to wonder if studios love it... see also 'no bad publicity.' Would it be nice if everyone could disagree civilly? Hell, yeah. But our politics, wealth gap, and intolerance in so many areas speaks differently.
Hmm... I think anyone guilty of particularly bad behaviour should be called out regardless, especially for serious stuff... But I disagree with tarring a whole fandom with the actions of what are usually a vocal minority... On top of that, I think especially with the extremist creators, sometimes they call out people for stupid stuff that they don't understand... And sometimes they are doing it for the wrong reasons... I don't know...
I guess to summarise:
Yes, but only specifically those being bad and it should be from a position of knowledge and having been thought about critically... Something like that anyway...
I love your well reasoned and expressed views. Are you sure that you are not Capaldi's Doctor in disguise? ;) Excuse me if I misquote: "Above all else, be kind." Keep up the great work.
I agree with Zack Snyder on him calling them out. However, Twitter can't even police Twitter users on bad behavior. I quit using Twitter because both sides of extremist behaviour. I couldn't pass the SJW gold standard or I strongly disagree with the Anti SJW where they stand with.
There's a channel on CZcams they claimed they are neutral but they are really encouraging anti SJW. The more. Vocal about how neutral they claim the less I find them to be.
At the bare minimum, if you are a creator who is actually a pretty decent person but you have fans who are asshats you should probably say something about it for your own sake. Fairly or not, it reflects badly on you after a certain point. You don't even have to call anyone in particular out (and probably shouldn't unless that person has a big platform themself)
Yeah I was in the Voltron Legendary defenders fandom for a bit and the toxicity of it just destroyed my love for the show and I honestly have to block the tags for that fandom bc it got so bad. All over shipping too...like yeah the show wasn't the best in the end, but I enjoyed it at the beginning and I couldn't even finish the show bc fan behavior utterly ruined any love I had for it
As u pointed out in the video ghostbusters 2016 is the perfect example of how a studio should not respond to people not liking their movie but amy pascal was so hellbent no making a female empowerment movie that she didn’t care that it wouldn’t work but I bet it originally wasn’t going to be a reboot but ultimately became one cause the only director she wanted to do it after begging him to do it wouldn’t do it if it was in the 84 movie universe so she agreed cause she was dead set to a fault about getting it make and it stemmed off the heels of the cyber attack on Sony from 2015 where all the behind the scenes information was released and a lot of us myself included were reacting to that information and could’ve cared less that they were were women I actually recasted the movie in my head with another all female cast I also love your channel even though I don’t always agree with your opinion like on Batman vs Superman I loved it when i saw it in theaters and have watched it multiple times on blue-ray it’s totally fine u didn’t like it also love how your able to look at the subject objectively unlike other channels like when the Snyder cut was announced and a lot of channels were calling it a win and u didn’t cause they didn’t really win cause they were fight for a secret hidden theatrical version that was only made by Snyder and they didn’t get they ultimately got what a rough cut of a movie put through final production which wasn’t what they were fighting for
Honestly, as someone who’s been called an abuse apologist and N/zi sympathizer for liking Reylo (aka, the softest Enemies to Lovers I have been into in YEARS), and a p*do for wanting two adult cartoon men with an age gap to kiss (Shiro and Keith in vld), I would do damn near anything for more creators to speak up about the fuckshit that goes on in fandoms. Just knowing that the creators have my back when I’m either receiving abuse or witnessing even worse abuse sent to people I care about would make a world of difference. Seeing Bryan Fuller not only buy but PROUDLY WEAR rainbow meat proship with pink triangle merchandise was such an amazing feeling and I’ve never even seen Hannibal or Pushing Daisies. Especially after having to deal with god only knows how many teenagers claim the pink triangle was never reclaimed like I was in a the gd twilight zone. (Sarah Z and Lindsay Ellis and fucktons of other breadtubers being shitheads about proship vs antis did not help matters, so Fuller’s support was especially refreshing.)
So yeah, kinda tired of feeling like I’m going crazy in fandom and would appreciate the adults with clout saying something for once. Official social media’s absolutely should join in too, even if it’s as simple as RTing someone’s fanart of a pairing whose fans are routinely abused, just to show some kind of support. Would be nice imho.
I think if there's a huge platform that seems pro-you as a creator and that huge platform is toxic. Saying 'I am not associated with said platform and don't believe in their viewpoint' is important.
The Katie Leung thing is just sad because she was just a kid. A kid who should have been excited to just be in one of the biggest film franchises at the time and immediately started getting online attacks.
Like so many questions, it depends. The internet is such a vast ocean that it depends on how close the issue gets to you or people working for you.
Definitely!
we can call out toxic behavior all day long....unfortunately the truth of the matter is it won't matter...toxic people will be toxic no matter how many times you call them and their behavior out, because they are toxic to the core.
The thing is, there's only so much a content creator can do to call out the bad behavior, but at the end of the day, it's the toxic fan that made the decision to act like a jerk, and constantly calling it out only provides the toxic fan a platform to continue. I honestly think the best solution to dealing with a toxic fan is to ignore them. Let them scream and whine and yell and act like jerks. It only makes THEM look bad. I feel like pandering to the problem by acknowledging the toxic fans behavior in a roundabout way gives them some sort of sense of validation.
As a creator myself, I will call out behavior that I don't approve of, and will make it clear I do not support this; HOWEVER, I will also not continue to give a platform to that voice once I've addressed it. I find it strange that people expect content creators to be responsible for the behavior of others. I am in no way responsible for how you choose to act, whether I am a content creator, a politician, or joe on the street. At the end of the day, your behavior is YOUR responsibility.
One important thing that anyone should do before addressing internet drama is to carefully research exactly who said what. Never rely on a single clickbait article attempting to sum up a controversy as your only source because these often portray a handful of Tweets as an organized movement, ascribe the worst possible motivations to everyone, judge entire groups by their most extreme actors, etc. Remember that the purpose of these articles is to provoke a strong emotional reaction from you, so they'll frame things however they need to in order to do that.
It does kind of betray the spirit of the sentiment when you say “I’m not gonna mince words” after you literally just censored your own words.
5:51 Spec ops the line has entered the chat
"Yeah, in case you weren't aware, war crimes are bad"
its hard to say on the one hand sometimes fans cross the line and become stans for example, on the other hand critizsum is fair, calling people out for mistakes is ok, also btw i dislike zack snyders justice leage and the orignal cut as a dc and marvel fan i just didnt care still i do agree sc and marvel fans are toxic but to be honsest all fanbases are like that, there is a line i feel like maybe things like raceistum, sexisum, death threats, harasments and transphobia then i feel the company should step in imo. with creators its hard, making any kind of critizum on someone will always send someone to "hate" them, critising individuals is still valid but again theres a line. i do feel like creators should make it clear to not send hate on critical videos.
i agree handling it wrong ends up being a desaster like with eas famous "pride and accomplishment" comment that was mocked for days.
i do think it would be better if creative heads spoke out more insted of pr people.
i agree company's do need to have there empolyees back.
i understand but i will call out people when they make big mistakes, i make it clear that i do not want people to send hate, sometimes peoples actions need to be called out, i made a call out on mat becuse of silance after he was part of a event for a charity that suports curing autusm and has a aba department.
silance is not ok in some situations imo.
That was obviously quite a personal issue for Zach, so I think it's perfectly fair that he said what he said. And while I don't think studios should necessarily br responsible for calling out toxic fans, they absolutely shouldn't cover it up/play it down and should support their employees when they get caught up in it.
Fans are passionate about their fandoms... that's why they're called fans... it's short for fanatics after all.
So when corporations take a big dump on their franchise/universe of fandoms and call fans toxic for being vocal about their failure to deliver a good addition to the universe to which they are fans of.
It's really toxic corporate culture that is trying to monetize nostalgia without putting in the effort to know why people loved that story in the first place. Which is why nearly ALL reboots are terrible. Most of which that actually make money did so with good marketing and nostalgia. Not for being good movies or good additions to the universe they belong to.
Now if "fans" are being terrible that's different. Criticisms are different than personal attacks and or threats.
I think the Ghostbusters situation is a very illustrative example of how studios attempt to capitalize on toxic and bigoted fan whining in order to turn a very average film into a huge culture war issue for attention and money.
They didn't care about supporting their actresses. They were just hoping that feminists would pay to see whatever the chudosphere was so upset about.
It’s childish and toxic for CZcams channels to do “attack” videos on other you tubers because they don’t agree with them. Toxic people like them are contributing to toxic fandoms. So when Restore the Snyderverse was trending 🙄. We get enough bad fans in DCEU. Pilling on more divisiveness within is mind blowing. Now with every DC movie or series is announced, all in the comments section is the hashtag “RestoretheSnyderverse.” Those toxic fans are telling other people to not support any future DC projects. I’m not a fan of Snyder’s vision or any of the DCEU movies besides WW and Shazam but I’m interested in the Matt Reeves Bataman. People were championing Battinson and now Snyder fans are attacking DC fans to not watch it since the Snyder Cut was released?!?! At this point it’s too late for Snyder’s vision. It didn’t work box office wise, for some dc fans, and the general audiences. I was shocked that Snyder called them out but he’s still pandering to his fans to bombard WB to make JL2. You guys got a 4 hr cut if JL and just live with it. Time to move on and restart.
Marvel does have toxic fans but it’s not as bad as DC or *cough* Snyder’s cult. The times I remembered Marvel toxic fandom was when Sam Jackson was revealed to play Nick Fury and any hints of LGBTQ heroes. When Valkyrie was announced to be bi played by a bisexual actress it scared execs to cut those scenes because toxic fans didn’t want the gay agenda. When Wiccan was hinted to be in WandaVision, homophobic fans thought having a gay kid was inappropriate. Eternals has a gay superhero couple and again toxic fans claimed it was too woke and forcing the gay agenda down our throats. There are some fan issues with race bent characters or diverse cast but I see that more with SW and DC. Like how fragile are people’s soul to see a new or different interpretation of a character?
Every single question you posed about "toxic fandom"....you could substitute the phrases content creators or pop culture media and all those questions are still valid. Some of the most hateful and heinous stuff I've seen online come from the creators themselves and the media that covers it. How about the answer to "Should fans call out bad content creator or media behavior?" That's obviously no or get a the lables. The only allowable criticism from the "fandom" must check certain boxes and stay within certain rigid parameters....it's dogmatic nonsense.
Toxic fan behavior? Yes. Like Rian Johnson calling out toxic harassment of Kelly Marie Tran. That harassment is unacceptable. If not their responsibility, I think it's certainly justified. Geeks and Gamers historically obfuscated Tran's harassment - basically claims there is no proof she was bullied off Instagram - which makes me feel icky, I think it's pretty well documented she was. I get what Snyder was saying.
Calling out fan criticisms? Which isn't innately bad fan behavior... I take issue with. Rian Johnson tweeted "Goddamnit I had this whole amazing Night King theory" when the character was killed in Game of Thrones. Basically he was making fun of fans who thought killing Snoke was a bad story idea. I'd like to add that I'm a fan of Rian Johnson's work bit I think that was a bit much.
Making a (pretty funny) joke is too much for you?
And I'm not sure if you're saying that Rian calling out people for harassing Kelly is unacceptable or not.
@@WhiteWolf496 was saying the harassment is unacceptable, edited. And "the joke" was making fun of people, which, call it what you want, but is below class acts like Ron Howard or Zach Snyder. ✌
I think for a creator to call out bad fan behaviour should become more of a staple there for three reasons:
1st it's basic human decency to call that shit out and make clear to people that it just isn't okay and that you won't support it.
2nd you as a creator doing that be it with or without financial reasons for staying silent encourages other people who stay silent because they fear for financial income there to still do it.
3rd once it is more of a staple a creator not calling out shit because of racist or other hateful or indifferent views *can* actually be held accountable for it.
bonus 4th: makes the "I love this work, but I hate the creator for that" dilemma far easier to handle, not least because it happens less often that way.
I had to leave the Star Wars fandom due it becoming very toxic especially when the movies were getting released fairly often. Maybe its just me but as i got older i started to not really care about the franchise like my interest waned. When i saw people go after people online like twitter i just checked out of the fandom altogether. The moment you go and attack somebody and even do death threats thats not a fandom i want to be a part of and if i need to cut a franchise because of it i will. With at least star wars i was checking out anyway it was the final nail in the coffin.
The Smash Bros Community is just as bad bombarding so many of the developers with death threats and wanting characters in to a toxic degree. Its very disgusting attitudes to see what people will do online and social media has its really nasty and dark side. It makes me ashamed to be fan of those franchises.
I get people will disagree but never make it personal because words can hurt and even have people take their own lives. Caroline Flack (English TV Personality) & Hana Kimura (Japanese Wrestler) who were bullied online and tormented and sadly took their own lives because of it. Toxicity can kill people and Hana Kimura was only 22 younger than i am. Its absolutely heart-breaking
also, what do y'all think about people who go the other extreme? who are going out of their way to make it clear to the fandom what is and isn't acceptable? (aka the biggest example I can think of is Neil gaiman)