Dota 2: Why You Suck at Team Fights (and how to get better at them) | Pro Dota 2 Guides
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- čas přidán 22. 07. 2024
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In this video Elevated explains some of the biggest factors that make team fights hard for Dota players.
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Heroes to play for understing what the video said:
Taking fight with low resources: Storm Spirit is the main example, you cannot commit into a dive if you dont have mana to kill ppl and possibly get out.
Target priority: Void. If you don't focus the hero who can fuck you during Chronosphere, like OD/Oracle/Pugna/Dazzle/WW (heores who can save allies even if Void has BKB on), Void is a complete non-factor.
Draft analysis: Tinker. If you are playing against Storm/Clock/Barathrum, you need to make sure not to commit targets spells (using Laser/hex/dagon or anything which reveals your position) before those heroes pop up, otherwise, they will be waiting specially to focus Tinker whenever they can.
Tunnel Vision: Crystal Maiden. CM needs to spam her disables from the furthest possible and stay around, out of vision, to be able to land them again as counter-initiation comes, while being extremely slow and fragile. Playing CM demands a good overall vision of fights, because she's dead as soon as she is being seen for more than 5 seconds.
Your life isnt the most important thing: Playing Axe, Bristleback and mainly Underlod, you'll understand the importance of being the frontliner, the hero who is going to tank a lot of enemy resources (mainly nukes and disables) while enabling your team to act more freely.
Taking bad fights: Anti-mage. Only enter fights which are already going well because farming/split pushing will give you more gold/exp instead, while waiting to reach key items (BF and manta mainly) is what you really needs to deliver the impact you are meant to do.
This also is correlated to overextension, as ppl tend to chase enemies after initiation-counter initiation are already done, which only makes sense if you don't have any other living enemy and no nearby towers to push (overextension and overfighting, opposing to farming/pushing priority).
EXTRA:
The most important, to me, is to understand that most of time, itemization must offer ways to achieving what your hero is meant to be, instead of only increasing of your hero is meant to be.
Example: Most carries only needs 1 DPS items, after that, BKB/Basher/Dagger/Aeon Disk/items to counter enemy line-up is the most important thing to aim while building your inventory, instead of going for more nuke/physical dmg while being helpless if you are caught.
I wanted to add another perspective that as spellcaster, since you want to be the furthest away and stay alive, get aether lens. It is for me the simplest way to stay out of danger zone. Some talent provide extra cast range and combined with aether lens, even in the noon, you won't be visible and free to cast and disrupt the flow of the fight. I won a lot of fight simply because of this since enemy didn't realize they are inside my hex range. Blink for me is for more experienced player and for coordinated team that if you initiate then enemy react faster with BKB, then you need to know your team backs you up. Most of the time, it is 50-50 and most of the time it put myself in terrible situation. It is not worth it to get perfect impale and die in the process. Call me a classic support but I like it that way.
You're talking about Lion. Surely, I'm also addicted to Aether Lens....I cannot play Tinker without it because it enables using laser without dying, which effectively increase your total landed nuke dmg.
CM has +100 cast range lvl 10 and with Aether Lens, she frosbites and slows from so far away, it's so good when your team is ahead/after glimmer cape.
Also, I habe seen experimenting going first item Aether Lens for Legion commander (preceeded by Arcane Boots + Quelling Blade): she plays with Q + W for the first 15 minutes, it enables her to have mana to perma fight, save/boost allies and, later on, having +250 range for both Dagger and Duel (which increases a lot her effective range of initiation/counter-initiation).
First time I saw PLD play aether lens Lion and max Impale Hex by lvl 10 was so new to me since we all play 4-1-4-1 on lvl 10. Tinker aether + aghs are filthy.
My only problem in the end was that sometimes after getting aether lnes, I am the only one focusing defensive item and since I'm pos 5, I will be the last in pecking order to farm unless I can farm by myself quick enough to get glimmer/force/lotus (CM, Jakiro). I see some pros pos 5 players just focus defensive item like Kuro favoring glimmer and force then lotus, like most of the time always in that order or swapping force in favor of glimmer.
I just hate it when all players focus offensive item and forget the defensive aspect. Sometimes, one additional force staff is what you needed to win the game.
If you are playing with your team, you don't usually need a lot of offensive power, because that power comes from the colective action.
However, surviving enemy initiation and being alive to deal your dmg/disable contribution is what matters.
Even though simple, it's not so easy to understand that (it's a counter-intuitive thing for most ppl).
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Play Storm guys. He encourages learning this concept. The hero is very mobile so if you find a target you feel weak against you can zip out and more importantly, because of his mana management, the hero already trains your brain to think a step ahead. Once you have him down at least in terms of team fights, start playing TA or Ursa because those heroes get punished for poor team fight execution. Just how I learned it.
great guide
How about them supports?
Juncboks Depends on the support. If you're playing Oracle for example, purging teammates with Q, finishing off kills with E, keeping Hard Carries alive with False Promise is how you teammfight.
Treant Protector plays totally different. Heal, leachseed, root and ult, and beat up squishy cores or supports in the back.
These guys are talking more about broad principles mentioned in the video like watching your mana consumption, thinking ahead, playing around vision, and working around your team.
If you want to learn how to teammfight as a support, I'd recommend Dark Willow or Oracle since they have great Crowd Control, and require decent mana regen in the mid game to fulfill their role. They both have escape extenders so you have a safety net, but they also dramatically change teamfights.
Then if you want to follow the main guy's formula for Easy into hard, go from Willow/Oracle/Phoenix into Shadow Demon, Enigma, Batrider.
@@jeromyperez5532 Absolutely, I get what you mean. I don't tool around with those three very often, so I'll have to give them a go. I tend to play slightly nuker or tanky supports lion, bane, ogre, shaman, and cm, occasionally going shadow demon if I feel it's in a good place. Thanks for the advice on some variation in my lineup; looking forward to expanding my skillset.
@@Juncboks as a support it becomes much more nuanced. Different teams need different supports for different reasons. I think Dark Willow is a great one because of her massive damage. I would argue that Oracle is largely reactionary so it discourages thinking ahead a bit, but his positioning is important so if you want to work on that go for him. Phoenix is the one I thought of first though because of her high mobility and more importantly the fact that you have to keep in mind who on the other team can kill your egg. The other one I thought of was WW because of her long CD ult that can either kill anyone or do no damage. So I'd recommend WW, Phoenix, and DW and then maybe transition into initiators and heroes with channelling ults like enigma and cm.
Great guide. I just like to discuss these things so here goes:
1) Key resources that are easy to track but people don't: ally ultimate cool downs, detection, and MANA. Ultimate cooldowns are easily tracked via the diamonds at the top of the UI. Detection is not only a during fight thing to secure kills on fleeing enemy heroes, but an 'around the fight you're about to pick' thing. It's really dumb to smoke and try to find a fight versus an invis hero that is likely to pop your smoke if you can't detect them back. It's also really dangerous to push up a lane to pick a fight if you aren't able to stop an invis hero from destroying your back line and demolishing your team's focus during a fight. And I capitalized MANA for a reason because it's probably the biggest goof players make in mid to lower MMRs on heroes with high mana cost heroes. For example - Lion in the early to mid game basically needs close to full mana to cast both disables and Finger without a mana drain. These players will see that they can currently cast any spell, but don't do the quick math by adding up the sum of everything they intent on casting and end up being confused as to why they couldn't cast their 2nd, or maybe 3rd spell. Last wildcard on this is understanding when you're up against Anti-Mage or a Diffusal Blade buyer - cast your spells early or you just won't be able to.
Having proper warding around team fight areas might be a resource, but also might be a planning thing. Sometimes you start to lose team fights because the enemy team has such a vision advantage, everytime they pick a fight, you just lose it because they shut something down so quickly and effectively and your team doesn't have the counter intiation necessary.
2) I actually hard disagree with having a hard 'target priority' for reasons similar to #4 (tunnel vision). I think in pubs, you take whatever targets you can at a reasonable cost and this fluctuates too fast for randoms to form a specific and well executed plan. Yes, I'd like that sniper to be taken down, but if I can take all of his allies and walk out alive, then I'll do that. A well played sniper recognizes the dive and forces you to dive super deep past Shrapnel fields so if your plan is to focus them, you gotta understand when that is a worthy cost and when it isn't - and it's based on opportunity. At my MMR (it was around 3k~3.5k when they were numbers), the most effective plans are basic structures and rules around dominant team fight factors like "keep Axe's blink on cooldown and ignore him as best possible" or "don't group up and get caught by black hole / call / echo slam", "when you see Spec/Silencer ult go off, full on back until it's over." Everything else under those rules should be automatic decisions based sub-second changes and probably even the highest MMR players don't form plans between multiple players about how those will happen. Other kinds of effective planning would be the understanding of your team's attitude around strategic decisions over which objectives to defend or attack, or if you are trying to avoid fights and farm, or delay an enemies push versus an attempt to hard stop it by fighting them etc. Making sure everyone is on the same posture to uses their skills in the appropriate context, so they are in the right position is key. This is the difference between the high MMR games you catch in the game's client, versus an actual professional matches at a major. Dota2 looks very different in those situations even though the individual player skills are the same.
I would actually flip the script on this suggestion and say, 'be able to understand a plan without explicitly being told' and one thing I've started to do if things get shaky in my game is explicitly ask my team "what's our plan guys? are we farming to get something? pushing? defending?" just to find out how I can be constructive towards whatever people are trying to do. I once had a player complain to me I didn't notify him that I was going to blink in and echo slam (it was a great echo that still worked, and 3 allies were well in follow up range, he was the only one who didn't come). I put on my mic just to respond to him over voice "I can't notify you of a half-second window and land an echo slam like that." Players have to know that I'm looking for it and follow up when it comes and I find that 70% of players at my MMR do correctly see and follow this up. The same can be said about moments like Axe blink -> Call or Enigma blink -> Black Hole. I don't even play those two heroes but I know when they might jump and know exactly how to follow it up without them ever telling me they will do it. I think people who don't know how to do this have never played support, so that might be another piece of advice: play support and actually figure out how to support someone else's story instead of your own.
Last thing I'll say about this is another simple kind of plan can resolve around a dominant ability to be used to gain advantage - kind of the other side of what I said early in a defensive context. For example, spec's ult (which you mention in this video) not only has a buyback -> jump into the fight mechanic which is great in forcing a team to a potential losing decision, but it also allows Spec to split push / farm effectively while your team gets stuff done. If you are playing Spectre and taking a part of smoke ganks, you're doing it wrong. Use your ult to join team fights and jump on a hero of your choice, while providing vision of all enemies when it pops and putting their blinks on cooldown hampering counter initiations. Other things that are hard to stop, or even if they are avoided, they afford your team breathing room -- Echo Slam counter initiations give your enemies pause on snowballing on you. Executing a great echo slam too early is actually not that great (teams remember and fail to make the same mistake twice), but you will have to do it at some point and from then on it'll likely be much harder. However, the new adjustment spacing from enemies means you can get pickoffs, or they aren't pushing as hard into your base making farming right outside of high ground much more possible. In a sense, this is a plan for how to get back into a game. The plan basically says "we will win with this, or the enemy will adjust and we will take what we can off of that."
3) I generally agree with this. The details of this could be a whole new essay. I would add that picks and counter picks only matter if people are actually doing what they should be doing. I tend to like to pick Pugna to counter Outworld Destroyer and Tinker, especially when paired with enemy supports that I know how have high mana cost spells. However, given that Netherward is stationary, this doesn't work when teammates are playing super aggro. They nee to take a posture where they pull enemies in and keep them around the netherward rather than very obviously chasing them away. At my MMR, folks seem to be willing to try to jump and kill, and have some sense for how to do it, but are much less capable of knowing when they've pulled their team into a situation that doesn't work well for them. If you have a Drow + Luna + Shadow Demon lineup and you don't push down towers in the early to mid game, you're also doing it wrong. Those heroes want to hit building and destroy bases super quickly (yes, Luna is also be a super late carry too) but going around open map trying to find random kills is not to those heroes advantage. You can pick enemy heroes off all day, but if you haven't broken base by 40 minutes and taken a lane of rax with that lineup, you're likely going to start losing in the open map. In RTS games, this is like when players mimic professional builds and get a unit or research an ability but they don't even use it. So like in SC2 maybe you build that Oracle but you never send it over to the enemy base to do some worker harassment. Suddenly, you've spent resources to get literally nothing...if you're going to spend it, fucking use it.
One pet peeve of mine is picking a counter hero and removing draft synergy. Most hero counters can be overcome with one item that isn't even that expensive, so sometimes it's better to find an offensive synergy that can win the game that can only be known but not really directly stopped. I semi recently started to play Shadow Demon a lot and love playing heroes that make good clones. It also suffices if an enemy carry produces good clones. Sometimes I may not go into a draft wanting to pick Shadow Demon but an ally shows they want to play Luna, so I'm like "fuck yes" and pick Shadow Demon as a strong Luna makes great clones for offense and defense. Later on on the draft they pick a carry that has shit clones like Ursa and I'm like...'god damn it!' Even more subtle knowledge is they itemize in a way that does not benefit clones at all (only stats benefit clones). Do they even understand the lost opportunity?
4) YAAASSSS this so hard. Except I'd call it out a little differently and narrow it down to the idea that people need to better understand if they have the necessary catch to finish off an enemy hero or not. That is, if a fleeing enemy has 1 or two more right clicks to death, but you don't have a good means to hard lock them down, LET THE HERO GO! A fleeing hero is usually as good as a dead hero when there are other enemies to be dealt with. I was thinking about a military combat scenario when this truth hit hard: during a battle there is NO difference between blowing up an enemy tank with the operators in it, blowing up an enemy tank and the operators already fled, and NOT blowing up an enemy tank and the operators fled. All three scenarios leaves the enemy depleted of that tank for the battle. People act like the first situation is the only victory and will sink so much into chasing a hero they cannot catch and kill, nor can their team reasonably help them catch. Usually they complain to their team "omg, you let that hero go!" when the truth is, no one has that range or mobility to catch up and they should have known and protected the back/mid line. Sorry Ursa, you were one swipe away from finishing that Windranger...but after Windrun turned on, they are clearly safe and likely going back to fountain so you should have switched once that was clear! High skilled and pros almost never mess this up, and OpenAI is freakishly perfect at this judgement. Lower brackets do this wrong almost always. I told a newbee friend this who came from LoL an he brought it back to LoL to great effect - "your best crowd control skills, or places to aim any damage/AoE is freely gained by enemy positions while they to finish off one of your allies."
5) I agree with this, but I find the example you gave a bit tough for most player skill levels to judge correctly. Spec haunt -> buy back was a solid one, but involves knowing that once black hole is down you *will* win the following team fight. That is not easily known by most players because unless you have to know you have a pretty noticeable networth/xp advantage; you have to know that player-skills on both teams are otherwise close enough to equal where it matters; and you have to know that you are likely pushing into the enemy base which means they will likely have buy backs so you have somewhere between 5-10 of their lives to go through to cleanly 'win' - though backing out after costing it is another form of victory. Where I would actually apply this for lower skilled games is towards the idea if you carry the highest net worth on your team, you should rarely accept your death easily. It should only be considered a good outcome if you've stopped someone or something substantial from the enemy team. That is, don't trade your life for a fucking support - you don't jump that shit unless you know you're coming out cleaner than bleached asshole. You probably don't even want to trade your life for the enemy carry either unless you know you're getting the kill first and you're the one that's probably behind. Also a part of this, some heroes (usually playing position 3-5) really are fine to die after they've "done their job" with their key skill(s). Examples of this are: Echo Slam + combo on Earth Shaker. If you've gotten a 2+ hero dunk combo while your team put in work, and they kill you in response. Take it and be proud. Do it again, and again, and again because you should be winning that game. One support holding 2+ heroes down for the duration of that combo during a team fight is massive, and if you don't win it's not your fault. Venomancer probably should/could only care about hitting your ultimate + gale on one, same for Silencer. Some heroes it's defensive like Shallow Grave from Dazzle, or for Shadow Demon getting off a key defensive Disruption + Demonic Purge on a key enemy melee core is probably good enough.
I played a Dota2 league at an employee tournament at a big tech company so I had some exposure playing with the same group over a couple of months as #5 support. When you're close to evenly matched to an opponent, don't ever expect to come out of fights alive as #4 or $5 support. Expect your death, but do your job above all.
6) I think I already covered anything that supports this already, but I would expand on the idea you mentioned about team fighting isn't everything. This is absolutely true! At the end of the day, Dota2 games can be won with a kill deficit and be won off of a single event. You can gank the shit out of enemy heroes in lane, and jungle, and all over the map in the early and mid game. But you have a bad high ground line up and lose a fight there lets say. As you slowly revive, you take another bad team fight right outside your high ground (you made the bad decision because you didn't realize that your advantage, while clear, wasn't enough to win an out right bad scenario). Now, having lost that fight right outside your base, you lose a rax off of that, and suddenly you're losing this game with a kill advantage and having really only lost one fight that mattered - the one right outside of high ground is the fight that should NOT have been taken. I think < 40% of players at my MMR understand how bad it is to move/chase to low ground. Not only are you giving up the positional advantage, but more importantly, losing a big fight at that location is super bad because of the objective you're right next to. You can mess up a few dives in enemy territory because it'll take a while before the creep wave gets to your base and you lose a rax, but if they are already there...the cost is far higher.
Also rat strategies are legit and intentional. You might be down because you only have one hero that can farm with illusion push or teleports. Let that hero do their work, get bigger, push side lanes, and you do a good job defending high ground if the enemy pushes. Lower skilled (or idiot players) get in this position and feel like the only way out is to smoke -> jump on someone and kill them. They don't realize the enemy is good enough to not get caught out and they are only ever going to find a losing fight. Let your defending Sniper get too big for them to handle; let your Tinker/Nature's Prophet push down a side lane and take a rax even if they threaten one of yours. Use delay tactics, and stop the TPs back. Even if they TP back and kill that hero, you know exactly what the space is you have where they just evac'd so go out and deward/ward and give farm to someone who can use it. There are so many things around not the team fight that matter.
Lastly, sieging bases is still a thing! If you have enough ranged DPS or some safe way to chip away at towers and barracks, do it! Turn the high ground push situation into one where the defenders have to jump you and win, because the slow route is clearly their loss! Sniper can do this alone, Terrorblade too (though Terrorblade pushes quickly enough enemies decide to jump or give up more easily making it not look like a seige). I'd say one of the best ways to do this is still Shadow Demon + Luna/Manta combo. Those clones combined are stronger than the original hero and the manta allows you to not Disrupt the original hero (as well as being the hero itself). I guess this was somewhat nerfed recently as Manta cooldown for ranged heros seems to be 45 seconds, but the main damage is from the Disruption cooldowns which can be cast almost twice as fast as defensive creep wave spawns.
Ohne
One of your best yet! A great reminder and list of things to look out for in my next games!!! I’ve been losing a lot with invoker lately after a while of not playing him and have just recognized that it probably is because I commit too hard in fights where I have many of my important spells on cooldown 😅 Thanks guys for the great content! Keep it up 💪🏼
No hp bar looks weird lmao
This is the best DotA 2 channel on CZcams. That intro was dope. Creativity = 💯. I was stunned. I hope you read my comment.
Thanks for the guide! really is helpful :)
From legend 4 to ancient 5 boys thanks for the guides!!
in how much time?
Congrats on the 20k bross
Please keep uploading such very helpful videos. :)
That life break into tp play was cool.
Thank you Sir for making this video :)
Thank you for the video, it gave me a guideline on how to get better at team fights, I feel that it helped. Keep it up
i am saving up for a dota+ and dota alchemy yearly subscription!
Can you make a video how to use quick cast efficiently
Awesome content! But why is the heroes so tiny ?
nice break down!
I hope it's not too late to win the arcana! Love your videos
IMPORTANT. supports need money too, forcing them to buy wards and dust just sends them on a long road to uselessness, besides, most supports are ranged and are generally suited to backline roles, it should be the the frontline carry, the guy who jumps into people who should carry dust to get those early pickoffs.
side note on invisibility, if your hero doesn't need the benefits of invis or the active boost from breaking passives like with silver edge then don't buy shadow blade, just use blink dagger, it has a lot of range and is instant. it's also much cheaper and generally is much more beneficial to heroes with mobility and initiation problems (LOOKING AT YOU LC!) besides, it actually functions pretty badly as a DPS item, with fairly mediocre stats that require backup from the active ability, the weapon only really shines when it turns to silver edge on important targets like PA and enchantress who have noticeably broken passives and where silencing them makes a huge difference
Can anyone give advice in winning games as Morph? Thanks
Did you disable health bars to hide certain player's names?
why u make the gamplay in ur video goes without their HP and MP bars showing?
More videos more learnings ! 😁
Feels odd to watch without health bars. 😁
I had no idead dust are shared
I dont press like on vedios it might messup my liked play list haha. But thanks for making. Great work sirr
Subscriptions matter to them a lot more than likes or comments (at least in terms of CZcams economy). So if you like the content consider subscribing to the channel if you're not going to press like.
good content!
Great video...
Thanks for that nice and helpful video. As always you make me want to play dota and try out the things you're teaching. Keep up the great work.
Nice Jackson 7 string :)
someone say song name from intro
ty for the content
i enjoy all your vids XD
More guides dota alchemy
keep up the good work ive been learning a lot from your vids thanks
song name intro?
intro song name please.
Is there a discord for dota alchemy? We need it. Especially during weekend battle cups.
There is! Check the description
you guys are growing well, good luck have fun
loved the content. but this would be more practical as a podcast.
I missed the giveaway;(
the thumbnail tho, so nostalgic
Why?
Where there is unity
There is always victory
Great content as usual
nice vid
Nice guide , would love that arcana tho gonna be my first dota skin
I have the same headphones
I subscribed DOta alchemy from the first day! Cuz I am probably the biggest fan of Donnie! I just love his coaching ... Never had the luck to talk to him in discord though :(
helps me a lot
Damnnnnnn that intro is sick boys. I stopped the video cause it was too nice lol
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nice guide
go pain lets go it
From legend 3 to ancient 4 great guide
give me the arcana pls
I followed dotaalchemy from min10 of launch. =)
Sneaky 7 string in the back eh? \m/
\m/
Najsa najsa
I dont want your Arcana - Finish the Song !
love u guys
I want to get better, but yet my Best is not enough to be called as a pro, and I try my best to become one. I want arcana please.
link says page not found
Sorry fixed
The "initiate into enemy panic attacks" method will not work in my games :)
Pls continue making videos
nice video
Well, I always learn from this channel so why not earn an arcana as well 😅
Is it just me or everytime I encounter a problem in my games dota alchemy is there to solve it?
Point 3 soo true....sea peoples have this kind of habbit....fav. hero picked first then countered
I wanna the arcanaaaaa
So are you saying that, maybe, just maybe, it is my fault and not my team's that we lost?
But that is impossible, i mean, that would make me responsible for my actions
You must be trolling
See guys? Im not feeding. Im counter initiating
Yay arcana 🤤
winner winnerrr CM dinner
I earned a 1k mmr,since i follow this chanel.I spend last couple of days watching u guys and learn stuff!The tips u giveaway is fucking broken :-) Follolw the rulles and have fun.Cheers
Hey dudes! Wanna send me a T-shirt? I'd rock that shiznit! B)
Nc content
Every one of the idiots who like taking stupid, unwinnable fights then instantly blaming a teammate the moment the fight is lost should watch this video
that knocking you had going on in background was very distracting and annoying,
gl for me
oh warcraft III thumbnail
PUDGE ARCAna
2:32 Hacks xD
Aracaaanaaaa
First
thank you i boost my acc 1000 mmr
2nd! Hehe
Who’s playing ursa he’s bad
This guy looks more like rtz than rtz himself
"When you break it down, the decisions you have to make in teamfights happen in microseconds"
microseconds are well-defined units and not applicable here
please just say split-seconds or milliseconds
fucking nerd
More guides dota alchemy
keep up the good work ive been learning a lot from your vids thanks
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