If MVPs Were Given To the BEST Player (1960s-Present)
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- čas přidán 21. 04. 2023
- The NBA typically gives its MVP awards to players who meet certain criterias... but what if the MVP was just given to the best player? We're looking at who would win it in those cases from the 1960s to the present.
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#nba #basketball #mvp - Sport
For those of you who have been following the series so far, the brand new content is the 60s, which begins at 1:38.
Also new is 2020-2022, which begins at 1:13:38.
Which ones do you disagree with?
Congratulation for the video Jonny, but for me you should've mention more details about Jokic's 2022 season like you did for other players. Jokic had that season the greatest per in NBA history beating Wilt Chamberlain(32,8), he also had the greatest +/- in NBA history beating both Michael Jordan and Lebron James (13,8), he had most triple doubles in the league, led the league in winshares and had higher true shooting than every other player who averaged at least 25 points that season (66,1%, 2nd highest after Curry's unanimous MVP season). He was also the only player in NBA history to ein MVP averaging at least 25 points and 58% from the field. Kareem never did it, Shaq never did it, Wilt never did it, but Jokic did. Also he became the only player with 2000 points, 1000 rebojndsand 500 assists and maybe none other player would be able to acomplish that. Truly one of the greatest regular seasons of all time. I honestly thought you would spent more time explaining that Jokic's season, but still congratulations for this video.
@@hristijandimitrovski8664 damn
@@WaveGretzky4440 yep😬
Jonny nice video!I hope in the end u will total the amount of the MVP the player won when this happen
Jonny u gotta do a dpoy one in the future
You should do this for DPOYs as well
This
Rudy Gobert sweating
Lebron being MVP, FMVP, Champion and then DPOY...imagine that. Him winning 2013 DPOY is mind boggling!
THIS!!!
I wish it was possible to give official retroactive DPOYs for Bill Russell, Wilt Chamberlain, Walt Frazier, Bobby Jones, and other greats from the pre-DPOY NBA.
Kareem being a 9 time MVP and Jordan an 8 time MVP sounds about right. But I’d let Jordan keep the ‘98 MVP given the amount of adversity his team faced that year with the impending break up of the dynasty, Pippen missing 38 games, Rodman’s decline and the fact that the Bulls were going for their third straight chip as the oldest team in the league and they all must have been fatigued.
Agreed!
You think the jazz actually made it or the refs cheated? Be honest! They know it’s Jordan’s lady year, they couldn’t beat the Lakers if they made it there! Lakers should have had a 4 peat! And as far as Jordan, everyone forgets that he pushed off Russell to get that last shot! 💯😂😂😂😂😂
@@atron4535 Ummmmm…..what does any of that have to do with who should have won the regular season MVP?
@@atron4535OL Jordan would’ve shit all over Shaq like he did before and Kobe was not actual Kobe then. They were not a deep team and didn’t have Phil Jackson. Bulls in 4
@@atron4535how tf Lakers woulda 4 peat if Spurs won 1999? Are u dumb? 4-peat gotta be 4 straight chips.
I'll be honest... I didn't realize how phenomenal Jerry West was. I'm not fortunate enough to have seen him play, but man, he sounds like an absolute baller. Didn't know he was an all time great defender as well.
I'll definitely have to read up more on him. Great video!
Underrated defender and was really clutch
There's a reason he is the logo player
As I have started to look more into players of the 60's and 70's including footage, Jerry West really stands out as someone that with small adjustments could be a top 5 player of say the past 20 years. You have to keep in mind the league didn't allow much in the dribbling department -- they had to dribble more stiffly due to the rules. He had a very quick shot which would allow him to get his shot off. he was also one of the best 15-20ft jump shooters ever -- that was his game and yet he shot a great fg% for a jump shooter. he likely would be a great 3pt shooter. He was a very good passer. He was also a very good defender and had quick hands allowing him to steal. The didn't keep track of steals until his final year at age 35 and he averaged 2.6stl, just 0.1stl fewer than the league leader.
And more evidence to his great skill...When Kareem was in his early part of his peak early 70's, old man Jerry age 33 was nearly 26pts 10ast (lead the league) 55%TS (1.08 relative true shootin) and won the championship on the 69 win team.
You definitely should check him out! West put up Curry numbers offensively without a 3 point line while being damn near Gary Payton level defensively. The only reason he did not win more championships was the absolutely loaded 60s Celtics...
same
This video increased my appreciation for players before my time. Moses Malone was a frickin’ beast.
Yes! He was a beast! He was unstoppable on the offensive boards!
This video: *exists*
Wilt, Kareem, Michael, Kobe & LeBron:
Crazy watching this video and having Kobe in this list of names 😬
Oscar Robertson had some phenomenal seasons thru his career
(Chamberlain numbers was just bananas even when he wasn't leading league in scoring 24 points, 24 rebounds 7 assist and league MVP along with championship, doesn't get any better than that)
Was the award giving out before the finals or before the playoffs? Bill won MVP alot over regular season Wilt
@@jaykaynum5569 good question 🤔
@@jaykaynum5569 there was no finals mvp. It included finals also
@@ahankumar555 I know. Bill Russell spoke about how many he would've had
I've said it before, I'll say it again, this is the best NBA CZcamsr in the game. It's always about sports, always informative, and always well researched. Great job and thank you for your service. 👍🏾
„Its always about sports“?? So thats something special among Nba youtubers?
after jimmyhighroller
@@rajathnayak5624 jimmy has pretty editing and a nice video style but is actually so unbelievably garbage at actual bball analysis. He was telling people that Jokic was a dpoy level player, tried to compare lbj and mj by literally just adding up points rbs and ast, makes 15 minute videos about how basically giannis, joel and jokic have a high per (a very bad and misleading stat which heavily favours bigs btw) and doesn't even have Wilt top 10 all time. I can name so many other things he does which are stupid but what i hate the most is how he acts like a bball intellectual and and condescendingly calls people casuals when he is far below them in bball knowledge.
@@a3per818 fr
@@rajathnayak5624 nah he stretches graphics to make them look insane, uses stats that don't reflect the whole picture but fit the agende and stuff like that
My god Larry bird is a monster, those highlights were crazy. NOBODY has all those moves he did, that was amazing
Right, not even the Worm!!
Glaze
Overrated
Boy the 80s were a fascinating time. Legends everywhere
I add a teen in the 80s it was a great time for hoops
2020s are same sorry just better just look at overall stats of top 50 players of the league back and then
@@mustafatufan2683 Nba today is soft asf compared to 60s-90s
@@mustafatufan2683The 1980’s and 1990’s were more competitive than todays game
@Mustafa Tufan look at the defensive stats. They're trash, not one person even avg over 2 steals a game. Jordan would have won at least 5 dpoy awards, shaq would have had 40 ppg as nobody can defend the paint at all, and he would just dunk on every possession
I loved this series before. NOW YOU MADE IT ALL IN ONE VIDEO. GREAT WORK!
I like the video. But the MVP shouldn't be given to the best player. Because the best player isn't always the most valuable, that being said the way they do it now doesn't make much sense either
You guys forgot The logo,Jerry West
How about a video on if the MVP was given for the whole entire season, postseason included. Like for example in 2007 Dirk got MVP, but was eliminated early, so I'd say Lebron was MVP for entire 2007 season, but in 2009 when he got MVP, then Kobe should've been it for all 2009.
That would be awesome lol, imagine if the nba actaully did that. If it's a clear cut mvp, Give it at the start of the playoffs, but if it's a really tight race, then do your idea 🔥
And same for 2010. Yeah I agree, that would be really interesting video.
So, what about 2011?
@@nataliapaembonan785 I think 2011 is the hardest choice. You really can't choose who was the best player that year. If you combine both regular season and play off, Lebron had better stats than Rose in regular season and he made the finals while Rose lost in first round, but on the other hand Lebron had the best team in the league and they could win easily title that year, but Lebron was terrible in those finals and Miami lost because of him. Soo you can say that Dirk won finals MVP, but when you look Wade's stats in those finals Wade was by far superior player. He averaged mor points, more assists, more steals, more blocks and was waay more efficient than Dirk. Soo I think 2011 was the year where NBA hadn't clearly the best player in the league that entire season. All of them had some great moments and some bad moments, nobody was on top.
@@hristijandimitrovski8664 extra point on Rose because he lost in Conference final
Its a damn shame BLOCKS and STEALS were not recorded.
Wilt might have those records if they were
@@fortynights1513 would. He probably had more blocks in 1 quarter than the single game record
Watching Abdul-Jabbar take those Sky Hooks and his follow through is poetry on the court.
This may be the coolest NBA video on youtube. Thanks for uploading.
60s NBA don't get enough love coz of few teams but West, Baylor, Oscar and Wilt would dominate ANY era and I am sure of that.
Phenomenal efficiency and durability in a time when it was hard to do so.
Wilt would not put up 50 points and 25 rebounds a game in any other era than the 50s and 60s. Let's be totally honest here.
They definitely wouldn't lmao they'd be trash today and would not even be playing in the nba honestly college and highschool players today are more skilled
@@Kevin-fj3ff who's gonna body Wilt?
The amount of research. Most diligent and unbiased NBA channel on CZcams. ❤
I hope he had CP3 over Kobe, cause he got robbed in 08 but they all knew Kobe should’ve won in 06 so he got the sympathy/benefit of the better team.
This list is amazing!! And I am just happy to see Kobe and Shaq get more than 1 MVP's which they both deserve.
It was fun to watch but there were some terrible takes
@@nickpeitchev7763like?
I'm from the UK, I only understand enough about the NBA that I named my son Jordan after the finals were televised here in 1998, but bro this was a great video, I was hooked all the way through.
Haven't watched the full video yet but Wilt's season with 50.4ppg-25.7rpg and the historic 100pts game being snubbed for MVP is probably one of , if not the biggest and wildest MVP snub in League history.
Obviously I have some disagreements but this was phenomenal! I love how you actually include both sides of the ball and not just offense. Too many people only focus on the offensive side it’s crazy
What did u disagree on ? He literally included a thesis on every player he thought deserved mvp that year
@@Trvllclinton I don’t remember who he said for each year from 9 months ago. I disagreed with like 3 or 5 of them. Out of 60+ that’s still a lot to agree on lol
I think my one problem with this is that you're over-valuing guard defense. It has its values, I'd always take a good defender over a bad one, but for a lot of the Kobe years, especially the one where you pick him over Duncan, you're valuing both of their defensive contributions similarly when Duncan being the best paint defender is way more valuable. Duncan could effect almost any shot taken at the rim, Kobe could help occasionally on those shots but was mostly only valuable when ball-hawking for steals or when the action came to him.
I think using defense as a separator when both players play the same position is alright, I just think that rim protection is the most valuable part of defense. Especially in the early 2000s and before, when three-point shooting was still uncommon.
So true
Lol as part of the young ones, I laughed when he picked AD over stephen curry
Have you ever seen Kobe put the clamps on DWade. Both him and Duncan are all time defenders
@@nickpeitchev7763 I'm not saying that Kobe was a bad defender, defense at the rim is just much more valuable than clamping one guy, you can affect a lot more shots.
even post defense... its an important part of the game, but you cant go its 50/50 in terms of value and importance. im sure nobodys gonna say that rudy gobert is as important as jokic cause hes good defender or that tyson chandler was as valuable as dirk for those 2011 mavs that won the title.
Wilt - what a tremendous player, athlete, and dominant force. He was the reason that all the teams he played on won like they did! Hard to vote against Wilt for the G.O.A.T.!!!
It's actually not do you see the way they dribbled? How slow they are with the ball? Playing loosely on passing lanes. They honestly look like middle schoolers. Two different leagues then and now, so no i don't think wilt a goat
@@dr_ogm4dness680 You're discounting the advantage that players now have. Give Wilt that same advantage and he would easily dominate any era. The man was a master athlete well past his retirement as well. He could do anything. There's lots of documentaries about that. Think Shaq power, Giannis/Lebron athleticism, guard level passing later on, and the stamina of Karl Malone/Kobe. The dude scored 100 points in a game, for crying out loud. That's hard to do even with nobody guarding you. 😂
@@dr_ogm4dness680 the plays that they ran are still the same for many players from high school to college to the nba. They just played extremely fast paced
@@dr_ogm4dness680 are you dumb? The rules forced them to dribble that way. If you dribble like today, it would be a travel. It is two different leagues because it is two different rules. Wilt had the Dirk fadeaway with the strength of Shaq. Casual. But hey, you said middle schoolers instead of plumbers. At least we making progress on that front.
@@dr_ogm4dness680 The were forced to dribble that way because of the rules. The way players dribble today would have been illegal in Wilt's day.
I know you only looked at NBA but I think it's worth including ABA in the 70s since it was a separate major pro league and had some of the best players at the time. Dr J probably gets the nod over Kareem in a couple of those years.
he faced worse competition which inflated his stats
For what it's worth I think the Doc should've gotten it over Kareem in '80.
I just shake my head when I’m reminded that Nash has 2 MVPs and Shaq and Kobe combined for 2 in their careers. Crazy.
I mean... Nash is possibly one of the best leaders and passers in NBA history. Should he have gotten those MVPs compared to the other talent? No, probably not. But I think without them his impact would've been mostly forgotten about, and those Phoenix teams ain't the same without him. Kobe and Shaq both combined for two, and they're still discussed as goats. So, as a Nash sympathizer, I'm glad he got them... Even tho he shouldn't have them for at least one of those seasons
nash deserved 1 mvp, shaq deserved 2, kobe deserved 0... and im not hating on kobe, hes a great player and in my top 10 of all time, but there really wasnt a season where he met all criteria to be the mvp.. in 06, he was the best player in the league in my opinion, however his team was a 7 seed, and he wasnt far enough ahead of everyone else to break a 35 year trend... in 08, his real mvp season, sure he had a great year, but chris paul had one of the best point guard seasons of all time and had more wins, and in my opinion deserved that mvp, kobe won it because the media realized he had 0 up till then and didnt want him to retire with no mvps
as for shaq and nash, nash deserved at least 1 of his mvps, and shaq deserved both the 00 and 01 mvps, yes i love ai, but being real, shaq was a much better defender, they had similar team records, and shaq was way more efficient and dominant on offense, ai won it because he had the better story
@@Someone-hi1nt dudes putting up all time numbers whilst improving his team why does it matter that hes 7 seed
@@steezsteezsteez because thats the norm, the last time an mvp was on a team that wasnt a top 3 seed before kobe was in the 1970s, kobe wasnt far ahead enough of everyone else to break that norm, even tho he was the best player in the league
@@Someone-hi1nt Wasn't far ahead enough???? ur crazy lmao, dude averaged the most points at the time since MJ in 87 and that isnt far ahead enough
This video is absolute gold. Thanks for your hard work.
Great vid as always. Very nice to see the 60s. I think it really helps to put into perspective why each wilt, Kareem, mj and Bron are considered to be the best in their respective eras.
Your criteria seems to be who had the best stats. While stats are important, the object of the game is to win championships. There was a reason that the players voted for Russell. He was the catalyst that led to titles. He took a no-name college program to two NCAA championships. Won an Olympic gold medal. On becoming a pro, he immediately elevated his team to championship status. The only time the Celtics lost in the finals was when Russell was injured. Any team in the league would have gladly swapped their MVP for him. That includes Chamberlain and Robertson. I was lucky enough to see all three of them play. I agree that they were more talented, but they were not valuable.
Well stated. You notice there is NOTHING to be said about your comment. The facts stand on their own.
They play to win championships and Russell is clearly the reason the Celtics won, period.
Stats and awards are the 'participation trophies' for losers.
Bout time! Been waiting forever for the 60s
All I have to say is ....... GREAT VIDEO !! .. The research, facts, numbers comparison, along with the narrative, as to the why(?), are AWESOME.
Malou Rocha: My choice because he was excellent & underrated!
Damon Gipson: My pic for GOAT in the 60s is Elgin Baylor! My choice because he was excellent & underrated!
Some of the work you guys put in on CZcams would earn you a Masters degree. PROPS! LIKED AND ALREADY SUBBED! What a video! History is such a goldmine for youtubers imo.
Very informative breakdown with great attention to detail! 🔥vid
Honestly Kobe's 02-03 season is underrated it's arguably better than his 05-06 he was more efficient & was a better defender
When did Kobe’s defense decline in your opinion? I’ve heard some say he was better earlier, and didn’t deserve the last few all defensive team selections.
@@fortynights1513 04-07 he was coasting 08-10 was a slight improvement but there was a slight decline as he has trouble keeping up with off-ball players. 11-12 he did not deserve a 1st team & 2nd team selections respectively so if we're going by his undeserve All Defensive Selections it would be 04, 06, 07, 11 & 12.
@@fortynights1513 if we're being honest, sure kobe was a decent perimeter and on ball defender, but hes not the "all time great defender" that many people talk about him as, and he didnt deserve a lot of his all defensive team appearances
*@G.O.A.T.*
Statistically speaking 2002-03 was probably Kobe's best year of his career, but Duncan was still slightly better imo. In 2002-03 Duncan performed one of the top 3 carry jobs in NBA history imo.
@@justsayin669 Oh I agree Duncan was the best player in 03 & I would say until 05 Kobe didn't become the best player until 06
Great video Johnny. You put a lot of work in your videos and it shows
Was waiting for this one 👏🏾👏🏾👏🏾👏🏾👏🏾
Tremendous work, thanks for that wonderful video
Only stupid thing is how Joel won this years mvp. It’s was a “here nigga damn stop crying” award
Racist clown
Great video Mr. Arnett I enjoy your eloquent approach to your videos! I think it would be cool to follow this up with the Finals mvps videos?
Arnett's MVP awards would go to the players with the highest individual stats, period. Problem is that what players do to help their teams win games often can't be measured in statistics, which is why I can't take Arnett seriously.
Not only does he not give Scottie Pippen the '94 MVP but doesn't even give him an honorable mention. Scottie is one of only two players in NBA history that led his team for a whole season in all 5 major stats Scoring, Rebounding, Assists, Steals and Blocks. And he carried a terrible Bulls squad to the second round of the playoffs. Wins the All Star MVP and not even gets mentioned in this video.... WTF!
An hour video! What a treat 🤗
Bruh I appreciate your time in putting out this video. It definitely shows who the real goat is
This is the MOST impressive stellar work i've seen on youtube in a while
@jonnyarnett at the 1:15:37 mark, with the master list displayed, you still have Iverson with the MVP in 2001 as new, but you gave it to Shaq when expalining. Great vid though, as usual…
Thanks man! I knew I’d screw at least one up… lol
no prob 😂
This is awesome, man! Thanks for making this. 👏🙌
Great analysis. I agree with most everything you have presented
Say word Jerry West was that nice🥶🥶. Sometimes I wish I was old enough to watch basketball trailblazers play like West, Baylor, The Iceman, Jordan (in the 80s-90s), Big O and all that.
Really interesting and in-depth watch!
For the eras in which we have better defensive stats like Defensive Plus/Minus, I'd much rather look at those than who got selected, often erroneously, to all-defensive teams, which are just as narrative-driven as MVP awards. It's one thing for the eras where we just don't have the advanced stats to analyze this stuff, but once those numbers are available, if you're going to rate MVP candidates based on their numbers, it ought to go both ways.
I think this only really mattered for you rating Kobe over Dirk, Duncan or Garnett in the mid-2000s. Kobe's defense actually looks worse than Dirk's in 2007 by just about every metric (DBPM, DWS). Garnett, unsurprisingly, was even better. Looking at the overall numbers, I'd say Nash's MVPs should have gone to Garnett or Duncan in 2005 and Dirk in 2006, and Dirk kept his MVP in 2007.
I've been waiting loong time for this😍😍😍😍😍these MVP videos are my favourite NBA videos. I would like to wait until this season finish and than make another video about Finals MVPs 😁😁. For now, I want to thank you for your content and your interesting videos.
Damon Gipson: My pic for GOAT in the 60s is Elgin Baylor! My choice because he was excellent & underrated!
To be honest, I think Julius Erving should have kept his MVP in 1981 because he had more of an all-around season than KAJ with 2 steals and blocks a game that year and he only lost the All-Defensive nod to two of his teammates, and he comparable WS and WS per 48 minutes to KAJ that year even if I ignore their record.
I can reasonably argue the “missing your counterpart on your team/carrying” narrative for Kareem in 81’, knowing he lead the league in WS and his level of play with Magic missing that extended amount of time in the middle of the season.
With Magic in the lineup, they were 26-11.
Without him in 45 Games; 28-17.
In those 45 Games, Kareem was
29/11/3 with 3 BPG on 62% TS (+9)
11/20 FG (58%) + 6/8 FT per game (79%)
Magic came back averaging
22/9/9 on 58% TS (+5) in the last 17 games
8/16 FG (53%) + 5/7 FT (73%) per game,
after starting the first 20 games with
21/8/9/3/1 on 58% TS (+5)
9/16 FG (53%) + 4/5 FT (79%) per game
⏺️Should be noted in the 2 games Kareem missed in 1981 RS, Magic was 2-0 averaging 22/9/11/6/1 on 44% TS (17/42 FGM + 10/18 FTM)
Nice that you made the full 1 video now
I always thought offensive player of the year and MVP should be 2 different things
I was waiting for this video for so long.
9 mvps in 11 years for Kareem would’ve been nuts but sounds accurate ! Good videos
I appreciate the work you put into your videos. I learn something new everytime. 👏🏿👏🏿
I love your videos man and I have for a long while. Keep up the great work❤
Tracy mcgrady was the best player in 02-03, led the league in PPG, PER, WS/48, BPM, and VoRP
What A great video. Great job Budd.
absolutely love your videos ❤
MJ is incredible. My goodness.
I went through and calculated the per 75 stats for the players based on pace for the team of those players and the minutes those players played. Keep in mind, as Jonny mentioned, rebounds were more even per 75 because of the lower fg% and fewer free throws. The inverse is true of assist - they were low across the league on a per 75 because of many missed shots.
% are true shooting %
1960
WiltC: 21.9pts 15.7reb 1.3ast 49.3%
BRuss: 11.3pts 14.9reb 2.3ast 49.6%
Pettit: 19.5pts 12.7reb 2.7ast 51.0%
Baylor: 21.4pts 11.9reb 2.5ast 48.9%
1961
WiltC: 21.9pts 15.5reb 1.1ast 51.9%
BRuss: 10.2pts 14.5reb 2.1ast 45.4%
Pettit: 19.5pts 14.2reb 2.4ast 51.1%
Baylor: 23.4pts 13.3reb 3.4ast 49.8%
1962
WiltC: 28.5pts 14.6reb 1.4ast 53.6%
Russ: 11.5pts 14.4reb 2.7ast 48.9%
Pettit: 21.3pts 12.8reb 2.5ast 52.5%
Baylor: 25.2pts 12.2reb 3.0ast 49.2%TS
Oscar: 20.0pts 8.1reb 7.4ast 55.4%
1963:
WiltC: 27.5pts 14.9reb 2.1ast 55%
Russ: 10.6pts 14.9reb 2.8ast 46.4%
Pettit: 22.6pts 12reb 2.5ast 52.5%
Baylor: 24.7pts 10.4reb 3.5ast 51.9%
Oscar: 19.5pts 7.2reb 6.5at 58.8%
West: 21.1pts 5.4reb 4.4ast 52.5%
1964:
WiltC: 25.0pts 15.1reb 3.4ast 53.7%
Russ: 9.7pts 15.9reb 3.0ast 46.1%
Petti: 20.9pts 11.7reb 2.4ast 53.5%
Baylor: 20.2pts 9.5reb 3.5ast 48.7%
Oscar: 21.6pts 6.8reb 7.6ast 57.6%
West: 22.9pts 4.8reb 4.5ast 56.2%
1965:
WiltC: 23.1pts 15.3reb 2.3ast 51.3%
Russ: 9.2pts 15.8reb 3.5ast 47.2%
Pettit: 20.0pts 11.0reb 2.3ast 51%
Baylor: 20.7pts 9.8reb 2.9ast 46.3%
Oscar: 20.7pts 6.1reb 7.8ast 56.1%
West: 23.7pts 4.6reb 3.7ast 57.2%
1966:
WiltC: 20.8pts 15.2reb 3.2ast 54.7%
Russ: 8.8pts 15.5reb 3.3ast 44.8%
Baylor 16.2pts 9.4reb 3.3ast 45.6%
Oscar: 20.3pts 5.0reb 7.2ast 56.3%
West: 22.8pts 5.2reb 4.5ast 57.3%
1967:
WiltC: 15.5pts 15.6reb 5.0ast 63.7%
Russ: 9.7pts 15.3reb 4.2ast 50%
Baylor: 20.1pts 9.7reb 2.3ast 49.1%
Oscar: 21.1pts 4.3reb 7.4ast 58.5%
West: 20.7pts 4.3reb 4.9ast 55.9%
1968:
WiltC: 15.0pts 14.7reb 5.0ast 55.7%
Russ: 9.8pts 14.6reb 3.6ast 46.1%
Baylor: 20.2pts 9.5reb 3.6ast 50.5%
Oscar: 21.1pts 4.3reb 7.2ast 58.8%
West: 21.3pts 4.7reb 4.9ast 59.0%
1969:
WiltC: 14.5pts 14.9reb 3.2ast 56.4%
Russ: 7.1pts 13.8reb 3.5ast 46.7%
Baylor: 19.7pts 8.4reb 4.3ast 50.0%
Oscar: 17.9pts 4.6reb 7.1ast 57.9%
West: 21.1pts 3.5reb 5.6ast 55.7%
Unseld: 11.3pts 14.9reb 2.1ast 51.5%
Reed: 17.8pts 12.3reb 1.9ast 56.2%
1970:
WiltC: 20.5pts 13.8reb 3.1ast 55.4%
Baylor: 18.5pts 8.0reb 4.2ast 53.7%
Oscar: 18.5pts 4.5reb 5.9ast 57.7%
West: 23.5pts 3.5reb 5.6ast 57.2%
Reed: 17.9pts 11.5reb 1.7ast 55.2%
Kareem: 20.8pts 10.5reb 3.0ast 55.2%
My picks are
1960, 1961, 1962, 1963: Wilt C
1964, 1965: Oscar Robertson
1966: Jerry West (though maybe Oscar is tied)
1967: Wilt
1968: Wilt (but Oscar might be tied)
1969: Jerry West
1970: Jerry West
I like your research
@@Sf75178 I wish Jonny would have used that in his video. He seemed to just do rough estimates by pointing out the minutes played but he left it at that.
@@Homer-OJ-Simpson Not that he deserved any MVP’s but out of curiosity, what is Bill Russell’s best season in your opinion?
@@fortynights1513 Well, much of Russell's value doesn't show up. I find him interesting in how people evaluate him. In 95 out of 100 teams, Wilt is the better player to improve the team than Bill. Bill is only top top 10 goat level if he's on a team that has several very good scoring options and they need a defensive rim protector and rebounder. So basically the Celtics team he was on is about the most perfect fit for him. Statistically speaking, the 1959-60 season was his best season at 11.3pts 14.9reb 2.3ast 49.6% because it was his highest TS% when scoring over 10 pts per 75 and he it's his highest relative true shooting%. HIs scoring is is also much closer to the league leaders at this point. He would also be in his physical peak so likely at his defensive peak.
I don't know if he deserves MVPs because that depends so much on how you judge that award. The team absolutely needs him because they focused on scoring options at other positions and he was the defensive anchor. But replace him and Wilt or Oscar Robertson or Jerry West with just a borderline allstars of that position, I don't think Bill's team would suffer the most in many of those years.
A lot of people make a huge deal how the Celtics went from Championship in 1969 with Bill to no playoffs in 1970 without Bill. But the Celtics also lost top 75 great Sam Jones. He was a leading scorer on mid 60's celtics and scored 16.3pts on that 1969 team. In addition, the team was getting with players that remained. The top scorer was John Havlicek at age 28 and he kept improving but 2nd top scorer on 1969 team was Bailey Howell at 19.7pts at age 32. In 1970 he was 12.pts at age 33 and then went to another team to play his last year at age 34 with 10.7pts. He was aging. The 69 Celts 4, 5 and 6th highest scorers turned 30, 29, 31 years of age in 1970.
Not that my opinion matters a bit, but there are few youtube vids that I pretty much agree with. If one was gonna disagree, they really should have been there, or put in the work to have valid input. I was a pretty big Cavs fan from the early 70s to the mid 90s and even though I was NO Bulls/MJ supporter, I remember thinking how it was annual folly to give the MVP to anyone but MJ. He was like an alien in his impossible abilities. Glad to see Moses recognized too. He had a few year stretch that he rivaled anyone, ever, on impact.
Just an outstanding job young man!
I love the video and for the most part you’re right but I believe teammates or lack of teammates should count for a small portion but great video 😊
I have tremendous respect for Bill Russel. He's the greatest winner in team sports and is one of the greatest, if not the greatest, defenders of all time. Not to mention a civil rights icon. But he didn't deserve his MVPs. It's a classic case of team success over individual talent, which I never understood. I don't understand people like Charles Barkley who insist the award should be given to the best player on the best team. Where in the world does it say that?! You can't just make up rules for a set-in-stone and well-defined criteria: "Most Valuable Player"; not "MVP on the best team" or "Most Valuable Nerrative" etc. How is it the player's achievement or fault that he is on a tremendous or trashy team? Kobe post-Shaq, was clearly the best player in the NBA but wasn't even top 5 in MVP voting because of people who like to play board games with made-up roles.
When Bill Russel is eclipsed in EVERY statistical category by multiple people like Wilt, Elgin Baylor, Jerry West, Walt Bellamy, etc., you start to question the award. Since blocks and steals weren't recorded until the 73-74 season, and analytics and advanced metrics weren't reliably recorded until the late 70s, it's the only thing to go by. Even his 1958 MVP should have gone to someone like Bob Pettit, or the highly underrated and forgotten George Yardley, who had his most outstanding season by far. Even if you consider Bill's defense and rebounding, it's still not enough; it would be the equivalent of giving Dennis Rodman the MVP.
Agree 100%. Russell was a great player but he played with great teammates and was coached by Red Auerbach. Hondo went on to win a couple rings in the 70s without him.
@@yippee-ki-yay9925 Absolutely. I'm always surprised that when people think of the 60's Celtics, they immediately think of Bill and usually can't name anyone else, even though he played with ten, yes, TEN future Hall Of Famers.
Because the logic is that if you're really valuable to your team, they would be successful.
I agree though that Bill Russell probably didn't deserve his MVPs, mostly due to his lack of offense.
@@x-man9473 But wouldn't it make sense to compare something like box +- or win shares or something? You're comparing the player's impact on his team REGARDLESS of total wins and losses. Look at MJ early in his career: drafted by an awful team and played alongside mostly crackheads in a highly competitive era. It's not on him that they had terrible records, as he still balled out.
@@RVered Win shares and box plus minus didn't exist until the 2000s. They can trace it back now in retrospect. But they didn't have it back then.
I was today years old when I learned that Bob Macadoo was a BEAST, not just a dude with a dope name.
I had a friend/mentor who used to say everyone has forgotten Moses Malone. great video I like analysis like this taking the popularity or voter fatigue out of the equation.
Great work! Thank you
YAY 1 hour video!!
Excellent list! Great video as always. I really enjoyed it!🙂
People don't really realize how fast Jordan was unless you watched him really play. He was faster than anybody. Even today Jordan was faster in game than anything 2k could duplicate. It can't be done!
I know this video took a while so I had to leave a like for the amazing quality and research
Such an insightful look into each MVP, I gotta agree with almost every selection except Anthony Davis and Westbrook, a little to outlandish for me and I’d side with Durant, LeBron or Harden instead, I love the mention of prime Chris Paul too! However the 5’9 Isiah Thomas definitely deserved his name to be mentioned for 2018, otherwise, great video Jonny!
2017 not 2018
Jordan deserves Malone's 1st MVP & he deserves to keep his 98 MVP, so he passes Kareem with 10. Also, I had no idea Kareem was a stud on defense at any time in his career. The sports journalists, tv sports media & NBA historians have done him a great injustice. Also, I was hoping Bernard King would pick one up.
Sure you’re not just saying that to bump him over Kareem?
@@gregorioqueiroz394 I only compare MJ to people he played against, so no.
Basically MJ, Kareem and Wilt were them.
No disrespect to the other greats, but DAMN
Love this series
"Hey, wins don't mean a lot. Wilt's numbers are way better, and the selfish narrative is incorrect."
"So anyway, here's why Wilt Chamberlain deserves the award after he stopped being selfish which made his team win more which now matters"
I understand the desire to take away the narrative and team sucess, but I do think winning should somewhat play a role in who the best player is. It's the point of basketball and superstars in basketball have more individual influence on a team more than any other sport
Not many critical comments
Fewer getting replies
Dude lost me at that statement
Apparently it's better to rack up garbage time stats than sit out the 4th quarter cos up 20
Thanks for this 🙏
Dude I love your channel! I grew up watching 90s basketball. I caught the 2nd 3peat from that great bulls dynasty but I love all the playoff caliber teams from that Era.
Karl Malone went to school near my hometown so my dad was a big Jazz fan. He also ran a hoops camp near us that my brother was able to attend when he was on the JV team (he'd 10 yrs older than me) .
Can we talk about how good/underated prime/Pacers Mark Jackson was, though??
It’s insane watching this video that Elgin Baylor despite his numbers still wouldn’t have won a mvp with this criteria and that Shaq and Kobe never won more 1. Also, Shaq never averaging more 30 in a season is mind boggling
Shaq is overrated. Extremely underwhelming on defense. No way this guy said he was more impactful defensively than Allen Iverson. AI led the league in steals thrice which is an incredible feat for his position. Shaq never led the league in either rebounds or blocks as a 7 footer, nor steals for that matter. And his defensive team selections hold little weight considering that the raw and objective evidence points towards other players, including Iverson, being more valuable on the defensive end, whether frankly or simply at their relative positions.
@@officialconch I’ve heard some argue that Shaq was good defensively in his first three seasons or so, then didn’t put as much effort on that end, and couldn’t keep up on the perimeter.
Considering the raw talent he had, he underachieved in some ways (as you said, never led in rebounding or blocks).
The fact that he had his all defensive team selections in LA and not Orlando might say more about the field of centers in 2000 and 2001 than him though because people seem to agree that he was better defensively in Orlando, and he didn’t get the accolade when the field of centers was stronger.
Not sure if I’d call Shaq significantly overrated (he’s labeled lower half of the top ten overall by most in my experience), but he certainly underachieved for a player on his level of talent.
He does however have 12 seasons where he averaged at least 22 points, 10 rebounds, and two blocks and on 55% from the field or better, and was considered the number one option on three championship teams, a fourth finals team, and depending on your interpretation, one or two other conference finals teams (I’ve heard some say his first Miami season he was the number one option, but not sold either way).
What do you think?
@@fortynights1513 I just meant overrated defensively. His defense isn’t enough to take away Iverson’s MVP IMO. I made some points in another comment but I’ll repeat those sentiments here: To say Shaq dominated both ends better than Iverson is a little misguided in my opinion. Consider that in 2001, the Lakers ranked 21st in defense compared to the Sixers who were 5th. Of course some will argue this was due to Dikembe Mutombo’s presence on the roster (or Theo Ratliff before the trade), but Iverson also had a lower (or better) defensive rating than Shaq that season and his individual defensive rating was better than everyone on his own roster outside of Mutombo/Ratliff, George Lynch, and Jumaine Jones. In fact, he ranked 3rd among shooting guards in the league, and would’ve been 2nd if you considered him a PG. But Eric Snow, the Sixers starting PG, wasn’t even in the top 25 and Jason Terry, who played the vast majority of the season with Mutombo in Atlanta, was only 24th among SG’s. So no, Iverson wasn’t merely benefitting from the help defense of his front court. In comparison, Shaq was 10th among centers. So, Iverson was even a better defender at his position than Shaq.
@@officialconch That kind of goes against what I hear people say about Iverson.
I typically hear people say that he was mediocre defensively outside of the steals, and people seem to imply that he had no all around game outside of scoring which he did inefficiently.
Out of curiosity could it be argued that Shaq was better defensively in Orlando?
@@fortynights1513 Well yeah, unfortunately a lot of people have skewed the perception of Iverson from what those of us who witnessed it could see and feel. I’m not saying Iverson was an elite marksmen, but he was more of a streaky shooter than an “inefficient shot chucker” who just couldn’t hit the mark. Any time he was surrounded by sufficient offensive help (his last 1.5 seasons in Philly and the Denver experiment), it was very apparent that his shooting woes were a result of the system he played in. Going 47/40/90 and averaging 31 points and 10 assists against the defending champion, defensive minded Pistons in 2005-(same team that just shut down Shaq and Kobe in the finals and held Kobe to below 40% from the field)- is an example that, when surrounded by talent, Iverson was no where near as inefficient as people make him out to be. He could shoot!
I will say, after handchecking was completely abolished and as he entered the second half of his career, he did became a poorer defender (even though I think the rule change equally affected other undersized players)
Now onto Shaq, I think the perception around his defense is just his domineering appearance. But I can see the argument that, even if he never LED the league in any defensive category, he was consistently near the top, along with his offensive dominance which could be head and shoulders above others. This would lead to people saying he was an elite two-way presence. It’s no coincidence that after the downfall of Hakeeem, the Admiral, and Patrick Ewing, that’s when Shaq’s reign really started. And his prime was unfortunately very short lived because of his poor work ethic. He was a good post defender, but never the best at his position. I think that, had those other centers played with a player as gifted as Kobe, they would have several more championships. Shaq’s ego was too big for his lack of work ethic and lack of effort to improve defensively. He should have at least led the league in rebounds a few seasons.
Honestly, the only thing different about Orlando Shaq was his weight and speed. Imagine Giannis if he was slightly worse defensively but slightly better offensively
Wilt Chamberlain: 60, 61, 62, 63, 67, 68 (6)
Oscar Robertson: 64, 65 (2)
Jerry West: 66, 70 (2)
Willis Reed: 69 (1)
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar: 71, 72, 73, 74, 76, 77, 78, 80, 81 (9)
Bob McAdoo: 75 (1)
Moses Malone: 79, 82, 83 (3)
Magic Johnson: 84 (1)
Larry Bird: 85, 86 (2)
Michael Jordan: 87, 88, 89, 90, 91, 92, 93, 96 (8)
Hakeem Olajuwon: 94 (1)
David Robinson: 95 (1)
Karl Malone: 97, 98 (2)
Shaquille O'Neal: 99, 00, 01 (3)
Tim Duncan: 02 (1)
Kobe Bryant: 03, 06, 07 (3)
Kevin Garnett: 04, 05 (2)
Chris Paul: 08 (1)
LeBron James: 09, 10, 11, 12, 13, 18 (6)
Kevin Durant: 14 (1)
Anthony Davis: 15 (1)
Stephen Curry: 16 (1)
Russell Westbrook: 17 (1)
Giannis Antetokounmpo: 19, 20 (2)
Nikola Jokic: 21, 22 (2)
Kareem is truly unbeatable
@@maryshaw9541
He’s the real 🐐
thank you
I don't usually last thru an hour and 15 minutes of trivia, but this video started great and got better
I definitely appreciate this video! You did an amazing job digging into NBA history and stats to try to assess who should've actually been the MVPs throughout the years. However, I think that you were conflating "Most Valuable" with "Most Talented" based on mostly non-advanced stats (which are important, don't get me wrong).
I think that what makes a player valuable is how they contribute to team success because the NBA is an association of basketball **TEAMS**, which is why I think that Win Shares, which you included in only small portions of your video, should have been one of the primary stats you assessed, especially when spread across 48 minutes (WS/48 on Basketball Reference). This particular stat makes it easier to compare players across eras to assess their performance within the set of regulations they were subjected to.
The next things I considered had to do with the MVP candidates' team success:
-Did their team qualify for the playoffs?
-Did their team win at least 55% percent of the games in that season (at least 45/82 games in an 82-game season)?
-How present was the candidate throughout the season (played 75% of games or 62/82 games in an 82-game season)?
Then, I would look at individual non-advanced stats. With all that being said, here are some of my hot-takes:
-Jordan is clearly the GOAT of the NBA
-Kobe should not have won any MVPs
-Steve Nash should not have won any MVPs, and his teammate Amar'e Stoudemire should've had stronger MVP consideration than Nash during those years
-Shaq was robbed of the MVP award the Iverson won
I really hope that a similar approach to the one I took gets adopted soon because the bias (*cough* Perkins *cough*) in the MVP voting is frustrating to see. The more influential objective, highly representative stats can be in the MVP decision, the better in my opinion.
S/O: Basketball Reference & Reddit for having these stats available and for allowing a forum to discuss such aspects of the game respectively.
Great stuff! And now the same for the DPOY (especially for the time where the award doesnt exist), please! ;)
Wilt's numbers were mind-blowing, no question. But do the Cs become the dynasty they were without Bill? It's a very valid debate.
Edit: '62 Wilt deserved the award, Wilt or Oscar would've won it any other year
That's not to say Wilt and Oscar got screwed a few other times
For the first 6 seasons of Wilts career he didnt play winning basketball
@AntiPro absolutely correct
@@antipro4483 he was forced to take more shots due to the fact that his teams were garbage until the 76ers got him
@@hazard4574 that was his excuse. But by taking a lot of shots he took away from his teammates and didnt let them reach their potential. He played with Nate Thurmond, Paul Arizin, Tom Gola and Guy Rodgers (all Hof and multiple time all stars) + like 4 more all stars over his time with the Warriors.
Edit: the year Arizin left they fell from 49 wins to 31 wins.
I thoroughly enjoyed this. It really helped me put into perspective how great the greats were.
Drinking game, every time he says "Excluding Wilt"
All I see is Basketball Politics.
Surprised there was no mention of Olajuwon’s stats in ‘89 and ‘’90 where he led the league in both rebounds and blocks. He was continuing the trend until a Bill Cartwright elbow put him out for awhile in ‘91.
These videos have hidden agendas. Hakeem was a vegetarian and Muslim. I'll let you fill in the blanks. Olijawon one of the kindest gentlemen of the game. He had I think 2 altercations in his career in an NBA that had lots of scuffles in his seasons. Yet you'll see videos subliminally suggesting Olijawon was an angry player. He was Tim Duncan with more smiling in reality. But after Adam Silver is jettisoned, some history will get updated with less bias. I was watching all these games if they were on cable or network tv. Another example different reasons: Everyone knew Pippen carried MJ. If MJ had to pick up top scorers on defense, he wouldn't have juice to hog the ball. Pippen was the key to MJ's success. Other role players obviously as well. But the shoe people and MJ's golfing buddy Donald Trump needs a false narrative that MJ did it all by himself. Just nonsense. Guys gushing over MJ just want a shoe deal.
@@Greg-io1ipWho cares if he's vegeterian or lesbian or japanese or alien, he didn't deserve it
What a load of crap lmao @@Greg-io1ip
@@Greg-io1ip Delusional weird take. Nobody cares if Hakeem is a Vegetarian Muslim. He was not as good as Jordan that is why he won 2 championships when he was gone and didn't win any MVPS while he was playing either. Also doesn't matter if he is kind.
Loved watching this again as one big video. Respect for the time and effort that went in to this video. Regarding the “Real MVP” list at the end of the video, you accidentally put Iverson as the winner in 01’ when you named Shaq as the new winner. 🤓👍
I enjoy when often you use the expression; "by anyone not named Wilt Chamberlain". It is kind of telling, to me, anyway.
I hate that Wilt isnt in more Goat convos SMH
MVP as a ROOKIE
As always, you do a great job of looking at the entire picture. Team success is certainly part of the equation. The MVP should be playing in meaningful games, but historically, team record has been weighted too heavily when determining the winner of the award.
THEY PLAY TO WIN, not just collect stats like some 2K challenge!!!
What next - additional points for "style"??
Dunk/layup = 2pts...
MJ should have won at least 7 or 8 MVPs
Great work!!! Great idea !!
1960s🕶️💪🏾. It's about time 💯
You should also do a comparison of the ABA MVP’s of the same years.
even if westbrook didn´t go all in for the trple double, he would still avg like 9rpg... he avg 28ppg and 8.6apg with 7,3rpg in 2015, 2016 he avg 10.4apg and 7.8rpg...without kd he could get to 9rpg even without adams givin him some...... 31/10/9 would still be crazy... with a career high in 3pt%... and ft%..
Thank you bro 🙌🏼
Great job.
Finally somebody recognise how underrated Mo Malone was and don't forget about Nate thurmond
In your evaluation you forgot to include the influence that the players had on their team which is also an important aspect when it comes to the MVP race