Let's Talk SINGLE vs. DOUBLE Horn: Benefits & Basics!
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- čas přidán 17. 07. 2024
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~CHAPTERS~
0:00 Opening Remarks
00:47 BASICS: Single Horn
1:40 BASICS: Double Horn
3:23 BENEFITS: Double Horn
4:58 BENEFITS: Single Horn
9:46 Types of Double Horns
12:19 What to WATCH OUT For
15:34 Closing Remarks
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Do you enjoy content relating to all things music and brass instruments? Sam has got you covered! On this channel we have been devoted to bringing you brass covers, play-alongs, multitracks, gear reviews and discussions, tips and tricks, collaborations, and even vlogs about the music world since 2016! Sam is a hobbyist brass multi-instrumentalist majoring in mechanical engineering. He is an active local performer and has played countless personal arrangements and compositions in small ensemble settings. If you like to nerd out over brass instruments, mouthpieces, music theory, and more, then make sure to subscribe and stay tuned! Thanks for watching. - Hudba
Hope you enjoyed this guide to single and double horns! The ultimate TL;DR is a double horn has two rows of valve slides, not just four rotors. Happy horn playing!
This is a really helpful video on a confusing topic for us non-brass people 😂👏
Interesting to hear about the benefits of single horn, I would have never thought of the tense issue w/ double!
I was going to say almost exactly the same thing!
Glad you liked it, Luke & Rob! I’ve been surprised, playing the King 618, by how many benefits the single does indeed have! I wanted to be really thorough about communication them because so many people dismiss the single F horn as an obsolete instrument.
I didn’t expect you here lol
A couple of remarks:
1) In Europe, the fourth valve is usually the other way around. Released, it is the Bb side of the horn and actuated, it's the F side. Most professional instruments can be configured either way.
2) The score is not always for a horn in F. It can actually be in any key. E.g. the fourth horn concerto of Mozart has a score for a horn in Eb. My son is a professional horn player in a symphonic orchestra here in Belgium and they get scores for horns tuned in almost any key. They are masters of transposition on the fly.
Thank you, Samuel, for a terrific video. I played the marching band French Horn back when I was 15 years old. Now that I'm 65 I just picked up a used Holton Double French (probably 50-60 years old itself) for just $50. I took it apart, cleaned it up in my tub, dried it and oiled and greased everything and reassembled it all. Now, after watching your video I know that it is a Kruspy Wrap sort. And, it is actually a pretty decent playing and sounding instrument. I'm looking forward to watching all your videos and loving my horn.
Thank you for your kind words! Congratulations on getting back into playing and on scoring what I’m sure is a great instrument for an absolute highway-robbery price. Holton’s “Farkas” series designs, while perhaps not the fanciest or most phenomenal, are well-reputed as some of the best mainstream Kruspe style horns on the American market. I prefer the Conn 8D myself, but only by a narrow margin over Holton models like the H175, H179, etc.
one off my fave brass instruments!!!
Thank you for the informative video! This was way more helpful than the horn class I took in college.
So glad I could help, Andrew!
Nice! Very Informative!
Thank you!
I’ve no idea who you are. I’ve no idea what these instruments are. Hell, I’ve never even played a musical instrument in my life. But this video got in my recommended, and likely tons of others. Congrats on hitting the algorithm!
Well, I’m glad the algorithm brought you here, and I certainly appreciate you leaving a comment! If you ever want to learn about all things brass, you know where to find me now :)
I'm actually playing a single Bb horn. It's traditionally used in Germany for hunting music, as part of ensembles made up mostly of Pless horns with valves - also in Bb, but an octave higher. Thus, "Oktavhorn" is a common name for this instrument, as is "Parforcehorn mit Ventilen" (parforce horn with valves). Interestingly, it's not played with a hand in the bell.
Do you have or know of any recordings of this type of ensemble with the two octaves of Bb horn? I’d be very interested to hear! And yes, I’m sure the Oktavhorn’s bell throat is probably much too small for the typical adult hand…
@@SamuelPlaysBrass Here's one that gives a good impression of the overall sound. czcams.com/video/yCBZ7ojtizw/video.html
The person all the way on the right plays an Oktavhorn (that's the bigger one, and a hand would actually fit the bell). The rest of the visible instruments is Plesshorns, the smaller ones.
Excellent video
Glad you liked it!
Nice video! As a trumpet/baritone player (and hobby arranger), I learned a lot about the one horn I've always avoided. Haha.
I didn’t believe in writing for/learning the horn for a LONG time, even with all the other brass under my belt, so I feel it! Glad you learned something!
It could have been more rambly if you went on the history of the horn with all of its crooks, triple horn, and all wonderful stuff. One of my favorite brass instruments sounds though. Putting these instruments in quartets or choruses is just an amazing sound.
Those are topics I could rant for another 16 minutes on, each! Horn is truly such a wonder. I just wish I could play it a little better.
Nice covering of topics on a hard to play and confusing to understand instrument.
I liked that you mentioned there are single Bb horns too, and compensating doubles as well (high quality expensive ones have a better F side, but cheaper ones suffer greatly).
I would like to make one clarification though.
There's no such thing as a "stop valve horn" but instead they're just horns that have a stop valve added to them. I've seen them on single Bb, single F, full doubles, compensating doubles, double descants, triple horns...it's just an extra valve for playing stopped notes without transposing. But since on the F horn they're not really needed they just haven't become common because all you have to do is transpose 1/2 tone lower when stopping the bell.
On a Bb horn however, when playing stopped notes the pitch is changed by 3/4 of a tone, which is just not practical to play without some kind of special tuning adjustment, therefore a stopping valve.
Thank you for the clarification. Now that you mention it I think I have seen a full double (Geyer wrap) with a two-tiered stop valve where the fourth rotor *would* be on a Kruspe, each slide being in between the lengths of the first/second valve slides of that respective side.
Awesome thank you, inherited about 100 brass and woodwind instruments and needed this video, thank you I can now properly sell my French horns
Wow, good luck getting through those!
Where do you plan on selling your horns? I'd be interested to see what you have!
Very nice video, where I am from essentially all new players start on a single Bb horn and then get a double a couple years later. I still tend to prefer playing on the Bb side except on the low range and the G's in and below the staff. Also that horn looks a lot like a yamaha 567 I used to own.
On the other hand, I prefer the F side whenever possible, particularly on softer passages :) you are exactly correct-the horn I previewed was a Yamaha 567! I posted the review of that instrument back in August of 2023.
@@SamuelPlaysBrass Btw another neat thing about the stop valve on the single Bb horn, if you dont have any stopped passages you can pull out the slide untill it's almost as long as the first slide. That way you can play the 2nd line G with S 0. This will make it way more in tune than playing it with 1 or 1-3. Another trick is that you could play sheet music thats written for horn in A (common in operas) with the thumb valve pressed down and normal F fingerings. This is because it essentially transposes your instrument down to the key of A. (could do the same for pieces in E if you have a F horn with a stop valve)
@@tharic4981 That trick for 2nd line G is genius! It usually sits very flat on 1st valve on a single Bb.
I enjoyed this video very much, and learned a few basic things I was surprised I had assumed incorrectly--the main one being that on the double horn, I thought the Bb part was lower than the F, rather than higher--it is pitched like a trumpet rather than a euphonium. I have what is probably a Conn 14-D single horn, purchased for $68 off eBay. As I've probably mentioned on other videos, I have a whole range of brass instruments--and I was surprised to find that the French horn is the easiest for me to blow--I had assumed it would have been the most difficult. One of the things that caught my attention quickly when playing it is that the notes played using the 2nd, 3rd and 4th partials on the Conn 14-C alto horn and the Conn mellophonium employ the 4th, 6th, and 8th partials on the French horn (along with the 5th and "illegitimate" 7th) meaning that this part of the range of the French horn can be played by what is almost a "binary" fingering--but the fingerings used on the other two instruments can also be used on the French horn although the action is a little slower. As a result, I've been thinking of the French horn as a bass instrument designed in such a way that it's difficult to play bass notes--the only way I've been able to play the fundamental is to couple a larger mouthpiece to the instrument!
@@bobjacobson858 I’m glad this video was useful to you, Bob! Something to bear in mind about instrument lengths, since I feel like there is some confusion there…
Bb trumpet: 4.5 feet of tubing
F alto/mellophone/mellophonium: 6 feet
Bb side of double horn (equivalent to baritone/euphonium): 9 feet
F side of single horn (equivalent to F tuba): 12 feet
The single F horn is indeed the length of a bass instrument but designed to play much higher in its relative tessitura than any other brass instrument, rather than playing in its fundamental range. This was done before valves were made, so that the horn could essentially play a full scale in its home key merely by changing partials and covering the bell throat on certain notes to fine-tune intonation. The Bb side of an F/Bb horn is indeed pitched higher, but only at a tenor pitch, not the same Bb as trumpet.
@@SamuelPlaysBrass Thank you very much, Samuel! That makes perfect sense--I've copied these numbers for reference. It's obvious that my single French horn has much more tubing than the mellophonium, or the Eb "French horn alto" whose overall shape resembles a French horn. The French horn is the closest we have to the old "natural horn".
My French horn has no spit valves, so I just take off the mouthpiece and dump it out the lead pipe, and then do the same with the tuning slides. Are they all made like this?
I recall seeing that there is also a "triple horn" but I can't recall how the third side was pitched. (Interestingly enough, I know of an individual--a former professor at Ohio State Univ--whose family name was Triplehorn!)
BTW, have you ever seen one of the old "tenor horns" made by Conn--pitched in Bb but having a narrow bore compared to the baritone? (I believe there might be one in the SDSU music museum in Vermillion, SD.) It was probably like having a valve trombone but with a saxhorn configuration. These apparently were sold only a few years, and had the suffix F. (I have an old Conn valve trombone, made in 1916, that actually LOOKS like a trombone.) Of course I'm aware that the British refer to the small saxhorn pitched in F (that we call an alto horn) as a "tenor horn".
No worries, Bob! I'll do my best to answer your follow-ups in a digestible fashion...
(a) A lot of French horns do indeed lack spit valves by design. Occasionally you'll see one, like a Yamaha or Holton, with a water key on the leadpipe, but that is one of very many places that benefit from one. For instance, when I play any French horn, the gravitating ground for 90% of any spit, condensation, or other moisture is the back-side 3rd valve slide. That's where I'd REALLY like to see more water keys get placed so that I'm not wearing down the slide by constantly yanking it (seriously, it's an "every 10 minutes" ordeal for me).
(b) Triple horns are generally made one of two ways: in ascending order, either bass F/tenor Bb/alto Eb or bass F/tenor Bb/alto F. I have once heard of F/Bb/C but that just seems absurd to me. What you'll notice is F/Bb/Eb offers more benefit in terms of alternate fingerings and intonation, as well as having constant intervals of perfect fourths between sides. F/Bb/F, on the other hand, keeps fingerings more consistent across octaves and allows the player to approach a triple as they would a descant French horn, which is a specialty horn pitched in 6" F like a mellophone.
Also, funny that you met a guy named Triplehorn!
(c) First off, I don't like the Brits' naming convention, but what you said is actually in perfect accordance with the German convention. German 'Blasmusik' bands traditionally have two 9' Bb instruments: tenorhorn and baritone. The tenorhorn involves very narrow, cylindrical tubing/small bell and produces a harsh, thin sound, whereas the baritone (not quite so much as what we call euphonium in America) produces a richer sound by way of slightly wider and more conical tubing throughout. I wasn't actually aware of Conn making a Bb tenor horn - that's great to know! The best American example I could have thought of is King's "trombonium" which is very much the same concept, meant to sound like a trombone due to its harsh cylindrical bore profile.
Hi Sam, I just subscribed. Great video. Have you come across the JoyKey automatic water drainage system for brass instrument already?
BTW, I ended up playing a triple from 1998 but kept up daily practice on the low F side - flexibility exs and long tones stopped.
Thank you for the comment! I’ve heard about it here or there. Very interesting premise!
@@SamuelPlaysBrass Sam, I‘ve been using the JoyKey system since early 2009 when I made the prototype, installed it on my lead-pipe, and went to work to see if I had overlooked anything.
After three days I got butterflies in my stomach at the realization that I had stumbled onto something BIG!
I also had a different sort of butterflies waiting for Dieter Otto to install the first eleven JoyKeys on one of my triples and again not knowing if I had overlooked something and was wrecking a fabulous instrument.
The immediate relief after playing on it for five minutes was huge.
A few weeks later back in the orchestra, one of my colleagues asked if I had a new horn.
I replied: “no, I had two new first branches installed because the others had red rot.”
He grudgingly replied:”you’re lucky. It sounds better!”
This was the confirmation that I needed at that time.
Now I have fourteen JoyKeys installed on both of my Dieter Otto triples, five on my K model double horn, and many more on several of my other instruments including a cornet, flugelhorn, trombone, baroque and natural horns, and a plastic trumpet.
Unfortunately, the benefits and relief automatic water drainage delivers is something that has to be experienced to believed.
Just like with driving an e-auto (which I’ve been doing since mid-December 2021).
Sorry I missed this reply--wow. We'll definitely need to discuss this over email sometime when my plate is a little less full.
Excellent video! I am surprised that you didn’t even mention triple horns though?
Thanks Jason! There really was no need to pad this video’s runtime any more though. The demographic of people who need to know about triple horns is probably less than 1% of horn players, whereas 95% or more need to know about doubles.
As a single horn player of age 79, I love your praise of the F horn . As a second horn , it can handle most band parts.
Even on my Conn 8D, I will sometimes refrain from using the trigger on some mid-high register notes. I think the F side is great!
For a beginner, do you recommend to buy the single or double horn?
It depends. For a young kid, I’d say single. But for an older player, especially if they’re hardworking and have goals of going far, it’s honestly probably better to start on a double.
What other types of ensembles do horns play in besides wind quintet, concert band and the orchestra?
Brass quintets, certainly, but besides that, I think you named the main ones here in America. I can’t say much about what goes on overseas.
@@SamuelPlaysBrass I see thank you for the information; it's very interesting that the tonal quality loss in double horns happens. I wonder if that's preventable . . .
@@zilikam2nd433 the trouble is that double F/Bb horns are usually optimized to play in a higher frequency range than a single F horn, so as to make them better suited for the orchestra. A good double horn, like the Conn 8D I got shortly after this video, has an excellent F side, so it can be prevented to some extent.
Question, Sir: I'm trying to remember what French horn I played in highschool. It had 4 keys (3 + thumb) does that by definition mean it was a double horn? Or are there singles with a thumb key?
There is a good chance it was a double. The only exception would be a single horn with the thumb valve being a stop valve.
@@SamuelPlaysBrassalmost all B flat Horns in Europe naturally have a fourth key. It's likely it was that one. I had one like that as well. Thumb key sounds like second finger key most times when you press it. Did it some times out of laziness.
The Geyer Wrap you picture is Knopf version of the wrap, Slightly different ( in the tubing bends) but not totally true to the (Carl) Geyer Wrap.
Which horns besides the ones Carl himself made follow the true Geyer wrap?
@@SamuelPlaysBrass Rauch, Lewis, Hill, Atkinson are example of other custom built horns that are more true to Carl’s design. The models of Berg,Finke Brendan are two that follow more closely to the Knopf version of the in line valve setup.
I'm really glad you made this video because I was mistaken that the 4th valve on a double horn changed it to Bb with the same fingerings as trumpet, but I see it's different
The trouble is the same fingerings still equal the same pitches, but you’re still reading the music in F so it’s extra trippy 0_0
Technically they are the same fingerings since at that point both instruments are in Bb. However the 9 foot length of horn tubing would be the same as a Bass Trumpet so it's an octave lower than the standard soprano trumpet.
(And yes also the horn music is typically still read in F regardless of what key horn you're playing so that really adds to the fingering confusion.)
living hell lol
#getsamto10k
That’s my favorite niece
Very interesting, well done! - although I must say I found the background music distracting/annoying...
Thank you. I'll try to make it a bit quieter next time.
Maybe f-attachment vs straight trombones and the advantages of both. Maybe valve trombones too, though I think they’re abominations.
I have a video planned not just for straight and F-attachment trombones, but the specific types of each! Lots of bore size mumbo jumbo to finish up for that one. Valve trombones are a separate topic, but I assure you they’re not abominations and they have their own merits.
Just wait till you get to the triple horn
I've never tried a triple, but right out of the gate I'm not a huge fan. Lots of added weight, in-line thumb triggers like a dependent bass trombone that my thumb is barely long or agile enough to operate, the horn standing in Bb instead of F when I greatly prefer the F sound, and the fact that the register that would be played on the 'descant' side is so rarely called for. I don't doubt that triples are amazing, but I do doubt I'll ever personally go for one.
I now want a tuba thats made like french horn
It would be the most free-blowing brass instrument on the planet, I bet, with a tuba-sized bore and the ability to switch slide tubes instead of passing through two sets.
Contrabass F horn
Is that a Yamaha 567?!
Yep, good eye!! Still gotta film the speaking portion of that review but it’ll be coming relatively soon.
Dude in the captions when you said horn tone at 8:07 it said P*rn tone
Can you find a real Marching F Horn complete with real rotary valves that's pitched in F1 like a Single F Horn? All I could find was a Bb Mrch F Hn with piston valves, but it had F Hn bore and F Hn only mouthpiece. Those aren't real, they're hybrids.
I doubt there are many of those. They’d be a nightmare to play, from the rotors to the slippery partials to the unnecessary weight.
@@SamuelPlaysBrass Probably don't exist you thinking? I'd love to get my hands on one.
I don't think so.
@@SamuelPlaysBrass awwwe ok. I'd love to see you review one lol. What about a straight Bass Tbone, have you played one of those? I had a Bb Straight Bass but I want the FF Straight Bass.