Japanese Army Pedersen Copy Trials Rifle
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- čas přidán 26. 06. 2024
- / forgottenweapons
The Japanese military was interested in finding a new self-loading rifle to adopt in the 1930s. The development project began with a request to retired General Kijiro Nambu who designed a gas-operate,d rotating bolt rifle but could not bring it up to the standards demanded by the military and opted to abandon the project in favor of a new light machine gun (which would become the Type 96 Nambu). Two major commercial firms entered the fray, Nippon Special Steel with a gas-operated and toggle-locked rifle and Tokyo Gas & Electric with a copy of the Czech ZH29 rifle. In 1933 the Army itself decided to jump in as well, developing a delayed blowback Pedersen copy at the Koishikawa Arsenal.
The Army rifle was pretty good, but apparently never overcame extraction problems which would appear when the rifle became hot from sustained fire. When John Pedersen had demonstrated his rifle in Japan, it seems he did not mention the necessity for lubricated ammunition and this trick was not figured out by Koishikawa personnel. The Army liked the mechanical simplicity of the delayed blowback system (which required no gas ports, pistons, tubes, or anything else), and opted to fit the rifles with 10-round rotary magazines.
After the final set of trials in 1937, the whole semiautomatic rifle program was dropped, as the escalating war in China shifted priorities to producing a large number of less expensive and readily available Arisaka bolt actions.
The Japanese liked the 'simplicity' of a highly-machined, tight tolerance toggle mechanism. How Swiss of them.
Baylor Blackwell.
It actually isn't as bad as it seems
Delayed blowback allows you to have all the moving parts in one section. It may seem stupid, but a gas port does require a bit more precision and quality control, thus time, thus expense. With delayed blowback, you can theoretically slap a barrel in any orientation, throw on the barrel hardware like the front sight, etc, and go on your way. You also have additional steps in the manual of arms with a gas port and block. Which means additional training time, and thus, cost. If all you have to do is remove the bolt, clean it, and run a rag through a barrel, instead of having to essentially strip the rifle like on a Garand and clean out a gas port, gas block, piston, bolt, locking recesses, AND barrel, that's a lot easier to teach and a lot easier to deal with in the field.
I guess they thought that it's as simple mechanism as already invented Borchardt/Luger's.
Simple and easy to produce are not the same thing.
@@maxpulido4268 99.9% of the time, with firearm manufacturing, it is the same thing. Look at all the stamped weapons from WW2.
Had this been adopted, a last-ditch version of this would have been interesting to see.
Apparently they were used in desperation on okinawa
@@cariopuppetmaster I think he means if they were mass produced and at the end of the war when they are cutting costs how those rifles would be because of the tight tolerances needed a lot of stuff can go wrong quickly
Could you imagine if Pedersen was successful in getting this thing adopted by the Brits, Japanese, _and_ Americans?
That would have been one hell of an achievement, plus it'd be interesting to see 3 powers go to war with (roughly) the same rifle
That would have been awesome
The only two semiauto guns us Brits used was the M1 Garrand for the Royal marine commandos during ww2 and the M1 carbine for the parachute regiment
+TheGoldenCaulk Well, that would mean a lot more of bayonet charges ;D
+TheGoldenCaulk In the Boxer Rebellion, there were Chinese, British, and American forces all using the Remington-Lee on different sides...
Forgotten Weapons Damn, looks like it's time to read up on the Boxer Rebellion. Any good books/websites on it?
+TheGoldenCaulk I don't have any book recommendations, offhand - sorry. Here's a really cool photo as a starting point, though: facebook.com/ForgottenWeapons/photos/a.260868080642309.62951.259844964077954/935599003169210/?type=3&theater
That's a TON of machining inside that thing.
"How does a Japanese Army Colonel tell a Japanese Army General he's done something wrong?" By committing seppuku after writing a haiku about it.
In 1930s Japan? More like by murdering the general in broad daylight and using the trial as a chance to make a public speech praising the emperor.
You're so lucky seeing all of these incredibly rare and working pieces of a pivotal time in the history of the world.
looks like it would survive 5 minutes in a dirt tunnel, it would fill up with debris
Every time you bring up a Pedersen rifle I start wondering more and more if the Germans took a look at this. Not so much to adopt it, that would never happen whether the nazi's are in power from 1933 or before that but more the way this rifle functions.
To me this rifle just screams meeting German requirements before they dropped the ban on drilling a hole in the barrel and got the G43.
Long delay answer!
Luger made the M1906 rifle that was probably better and used a similar system
Whoa...
I've wanted to see a real example of a pederson for a long time. even finding pictures was hard but actual video...
Thanks Ian!
+Prince Randoms Have you seen this one? czcams.com/video/PfhKLuPiXFc/video.html
lol. I have not. That's even better. You got the best hobby
The whole "what if" angle of these guys really blows my mind!
Imagine a world of no M1...
I would much rather have the CMP issuing Pedersen rifles
567WORMBOY123 2deep4me brother!
Best firearms channel on youtube. Never cease to be amazed by the research and professionalism. The stories told by some of these weapons are astonishing. Bravo!
Wow, gorgeous gun! thanks Ian!
Kind of looks like a diesel punk Berthier, I love it. It's a shame Pederson's semi-auto rifle designs never went anywhere, a full sized battle rifle with a toggle locked action is just so unbelievably cool.
If the Japanese would have had this rifle or the other Peterson copy, they would have been able to match the small arm firepower of the US.
Yes.
I can see that lack of empty mag hold open being a huge problem. Other guns may not have a hold open, but do not have a finicky system to get it open.
A lot of people would die fiddling with that hold open in combat
Ya know, Ian, a Pederson rifle would be an interesting mud test for InRangeTV, given the Toggle action and how the Po8 performed.
Phew, relying on a perfect combination of inertia and torque created from the bolt's mass and geometry sounds like this system needs a hell of extremely tight tolerances. No wonder those guns were prohibitively expensive.
44WarmocK77
Tight like a tiger
I almost skipped this video, I'm really glad I did not. I can't imagine the Colonel sleeping very well after the General announced he was entering the competition.
The Mannlicher-Schönaeur rifle, with the rotary spool magazine, wasn't just a sporting gun.
Greece adopted it as their service rifle and carbine in 1903. And used them through the Balkan Wars, WW1, the Greco-Turkish War, in WW2.
maybe the sights were offset so that they lined up with the scope mount
Possibly the rear sights were offset simply to allow for a more ergonomic single trigger handed adjustment of both the distance and wind-age dial knobs, to allow for an easier, quicker and safer use during action??
The japanese army used lubricated ammo in some other weapons , so I guess they would had figured out .
Imagine if Pedersen would have just said "lube". Would have been a different war.
Bravo,another well done review. What an interesting rifle. This rifle could have been a game changer if they would have fluted the chamber or resolved the case lubing issue. .....Dont get the swollen cranium syndrome,YOU are the creme of the crop of the historical firearms reviewers. ....Take a bow!
Hi Ian, love your approach to presenting these weapons, your lack of partiality and honest assessment is most appreciated, I think your creating a quite special archive here, good work.
B sloppy
The fact he is favorably partial to every one is what I like, while also discussing the cons.
I love all types of guns, any kind, and don't hate any one, unless it kills me.
What's amusing to me about these guns is that the HK style fluted chambers could easily have changed the fate of this rifle.
It's very special. It goes all the way to eleven.
ah, you forgot to show the spot on the toggle where the safety slots in and prevents the striker sear to drop ... I think I spotted it on the side of the toggle ...
That offset sight might have something to do with the nonstandard scope?
This rifle is used to arm a premium Japanese squad from Enlisted. Pretty rare weapon IRL
My guess for the offset sights was so it could still be used even when whatever optic mounting system and optic is in place. Whatever system that was planned for anyway.
This thing looks like some fallout grade stuff I love it
I always enjoy the videos about Japanese guns. Very interesting
Was wondering how they got a copy of this rifle, till you explained it in the video. You had mentioned that the Pedersen rifle used a wax coating for lubrication. Would you think the wax would have caused fouling in the heat in the Pacific?
Haven't you already done a video on this or was that a different state of development?
EDIT: Noticing the length of the one in the older video and I'm assuming that you made a video on the carbine version
Interesting concepts in this one. I wonder why the firing pin is missing?
Do you have any history on the Krnka M1867 conversion of M1857 Six Line Russian rifle? I have one at home which was used in Russo-Turkish war of 1878 , our (Bulgarian) museums are filled with them, yet I cannot find any viable history other than "muzzle loader converted to breech loader" and I can't find a video of one shooting.
The Japanese Colonel tells the Japanese General that he created a lousy rifle and then immediately commits seppuku.
How does the extra rifle cost compare to the battleship Yamato? I find myself wondering if maybe infantry equipment should have had a higher budget priority, especially with the mark 2 sten compared to, well, some midwar battleship.
would fluted chambers worked instead of lubricated ammo?
When you disconnect the main spring from the toggle are you still able to fire the rifle?
Ser Ian Baratheon, holy carp.
Do you think there are any examples of the Japanese Pedersen that can be fired? Granted, i would think some ammo would have to be made...
I think its unacceptable a rifle or a gun that need lubricated ammo to work properly.
da8352
Like bumper bearing grease
could the sights be off set to clear the hilt or wrist guard of the arisaka bayonet when mounted and firing? since it's a different rifle I wonder if having that bayonet mounted if it blocks your sight picture where as on an arisaka it doesnt. just a thought. the other though would be somehow to be out of the way of whatever optic was going to be mounted but it was on the left so of setting the sights to the left doesn't make sense for that. third, it could be something as simple as having the face of the soldier offset to clear the toggle from the shooter's hat or helmet brim if they're right up on the sights close.
if you still have access to this rifle Ian and can find a bayonet, please try it and test my theory, I really really want to know. thanks in advance my friend.
I had a Savage lever action in 303 Savage, was that a similar magazine?
Do type 100 smg plz.
funny thing is the paterson round is kind of making a come back in the US military.
If Pedersen would have used a fluted chamber this might have made his system better and not have to use the waxed cartridges. The extraction and ejection problems should have been smoother and more reliable. Just a notion to reflect on.
Did Pedersen base his toggle lock design on the Luger design and just modify it, or did he come up with his design completely independently?
From the context I’ve gathered through watching Ian’s videos on these guns I’d want to say pedersen was completely aware of the Luger design, and other toggle action delay blowback weapons. But made his own unique design to try and fit the nitch
"Well use the simple Pederson system . . . and add a complex magazine"
Colonel to general, i am the general now.
So I'm a little bit confused about the effect of chamber pressure on extraction, you've shown that that many straight blowback pistols will actually operate without an extractor just due to chamber pressure(czcams.com/video/o3Vd8BUsEm8/video.html) , so why is it that delayed blowback rifles like the Pederson require lubricated cartridges to operate reliably?
Because the pressure when extracting is higher than pistol calibers and makes the case get stuck into the chamber.
現存してる試製自動小銃甲号が見れるのは喜ばしい。
Great rifles but would they have stood up to the rigors of combat? That toggle assembly requires precision machining to work. I cant see it working for long when its covered in mud or sand. It looks like it wouid need constant cleaning.
Hey, Ian, haven't you already reviewed this rifle (only a different example) about a year ago? Not that I'm complaining, it's just that I had a deja vu moment when I saw the thumbnail.
+Fraje CZ My previous video was a different example (#8) - I did this one because I had a lot more of the history available.
I see, thanks for the reply. And let me say that I appretiate immensely all the stuff you do, your videos are what got me interested in unusual weapons. Geetings from the Czech Republic. :)
Can you imagine the moment the Japanese guy in charge found out it was a lack of wax coating on the ammo that was keeping it from running?
I have heard that some old ammo was coated in hog lard? Anyone ever hear that?
I wonder what happened to the Pedersen Carbine captured on Okinawa.
I wish Pedersen had brought his rifle to Canada. Everyone else had interesting, unique weapons during World War 2 that ended up being associated with them (even the Austrailians had the Owen Gun). But we just used all the same equipment as Britain. :(
The Canadian government could have funded R&D into improving the Ross in order to fix the issues that rifle had. Would have been the only notable straight pull rifle in WW2.
But your Sten guns were the best ones.
I'd love to have a reproduction of a Pederson if someone could make low-cost ammunition. I wonder whether there's another way to solve the ejection problem aside from the wax coating. I even wonder whether someone could find a way to let people coat the brass at home at low cost and without too much trouble.
Spray-on teflon maybe?
Late to the question, but yes, the Nippon Steel trials gun competing against this used a gas operated toggle-link that did not require lubed cartridges.
the bolt face looks to be for a 7.7.
am i right?
or is it 6.5.
the old man brought back a type 38, WITH the chrysanthemum on the receiver.
Probably 6.5mm.
The IJA adopted 7.7mm as a result of combat experience in the 2nd Sino-Japanese War.
And the semiautomatic rifle program was suspended when that war started.
Auction COMPANY again? Auction house sound so much more natural....
I would argue that it was a good thing that the Japanese never worked out the hard-wax trick. At least for Allied soldiers.
Yeah. Oiling and waxing is different off course. But in the end it is the same mechanism.
I wana buy and shoot this gun.
Do the waxed rounds from pedersen work? If not,
What ammo does it shoot?
& were the HELL is the firing pin!??!! Will any pedersen toggle lock rifle firing pin work?
Thx Ian
why no firing pin???
break that rotor out!!! I need to see it.
Johnson type mag in pederson rifle that is enlightenment.
Would this be in time for 7.7 or is it 6.5?
Schonauer magazine (patented 1886 and 1900) not Johnson.
Cool.:D
would a fluted chamber have helped this firearm?
+MrDposter Potentially.
the lack of a last round hold open does not seem to be well thought out. so every time it was out one had to lock the bolt open and then charge it? lot of wasted time in battle
I little that has understood, but was of interest look :)
Good try.
+ToastytheG I simply bad know the English
Jack Action
No worries mate
Would a fluted chamber have made the Pedersen a more reliable rifle and solved the sticky cartridge problem ?
Yes, but expensive and disregarded for the cheaper wax solution.
Looks like whatever US Army lieutenant who occupied the Tokyo Arsenal and sent home all the prototype weapons just died.
Is there anything inherently wrong with rotary magazines?
Rotary mags are inherently more complicated in terms of parts and or machining as compared to vertical box mags.
Was this a 7,7mm?
+Merle Morrison No, 6.5mm
+Forgotten Weapons OK, thank you!
The ammo magazine looks awful on it.
What's "conflict of interest" in Japanese ?
Google translate tells me it is "Rigai no shōtotsu" 利害の衝突
+FirstDagger how do you get the characters??
Greg Miller
Google translate and/or Japanese language pack.
BigMek456 こんふりくと の いんてれｓと！
...messed up because of wax job..
I'm kind of glad they didn't figure it out... Just saying.
+PBRStreetGang Yeah, and I'm sure a whole lot of GIs feel the same way!
He could've shown it to the Germans.....
That time when John Pedersen almost became the Hiram Maxim of WW2... (thumbs up if you get the reference)
No wonder why the M1 won the trials
Johnson rifle almost won it.
盧溝橋事變
Trying to understand why you seem wistful the Japanese didn't iron out the kinks and adopt these rifles. Rifles which would've been fired at US Marines and soldiers. Were the Pedersen clones fundamentally flawed in a way that the Arisakas were actually the better weapon? If large scale deployment of fully developed Japanese Pedersens had happened, would US (and Chinese) lives have been saved or lost?
+Joshua Janecek A single rifle design could not have saved the Japanese. US air power defeated them primarily, and these things could not change that.
Certainly no rifle could've turned the tide. I'm asking about a difference of 5 or 10 thousand US KIA. It might not sound like much, unless both your grandfathers survived the Pacific Theater.
Joshua Janecek Well, I'm English, so my grandfathers did not have the opportunity. But one did survive the war in North Africa. Of course 5-10 thousand casualties would be terrible. But I believe american fighting spirit was a major factor in the victory in the east, and giving every Japanese soldier a Thomson sub machine gun couldn't have changed it. It would have cost more lives, but such is the price of freedom.