White Prototype Gas Operated .276 Rifle
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- čas přidán 11. 11. 2015
- / forgottenweapons
One of the competitors against the Garand and Pedersen rifles in the 1929 and 1930 US Army trials was the White rifle. White actually submitted two rifles, but only this gas-operated design was actually tested - and it failed to make enough of an impression to move on for further testing. However, White's gas system would come back 20 years later to be used in the M14 rifle.
Forgotten Weapons. The United Shoe did not make shoes. Their full name was the United Shoe Machinery Corporation. They produced the machines to make shoes, but not making the actual shoes themselves. The "Shoe" (as us people who live in the area of where the factory once was) call it, made I think about 9000 patents for inventions, many of those inventions we still use today (Like injection molding and pop top lids).
I know it's been three years, but thank you for the solid bit of history :D
@@benzracer During WW2, they made Torpedoes....or, at least designed Torps. When it closed, they found many prototype machines, including, parts of the Vulcan machine cannon. Place was amazing in its size. I was 1/2 mile from it today.
Awesome you uploaded today, time to learn like CZcamss a classroom
The Gas-expansion and Cutoff system was a cited reason for not pursuing this rifle farther. I have it somewhere in my mound of primary documents, but the quote was something to the effect of, "We can see no advantage to having a hole in the barrel when the Pedersen and Garand perform excellent without one." Of course the Gas-Trap Garand had to be reworked to drill a hole in the barrel and White's gas system was eventually vindicated and adopted, but that's hindsight.
One thing I'd like to note is that when the White system was evaluated for the Garand (one of the "E" modifications... E9 or E10, it was found to be INFERIOR to the Williams short-stroke piston as found on the M1 Carbine in virtually every way. The Reason for going with the White instead of Williams system was that the Williams system was not suitable for corrosive ammo. There were still mountains of 30-06 to burn through and a closed gas system necessitated non-corrosive ammo. As all of the 30 carbine ammo was non-corrosive from the start, that was not an issue.
... seems somebody misplaced their Lithium.
Damn did you write the gun Bible? Lend me your knowledge!
Hindsight is always 20/20
Would you be able to provide any further details on the differences between the White system and the Tappet or other short-stroke piston designs?
@@duginashley3199 Yes. The M1 Carbine uses a piston that has a stop in it. The piston travels a short distance under pressure and then stops against a shoulder at the end of the cylinder while still under pressure. Once the bullet leaves the barrel, this excess gas is vented to the bore. This is a closed gas system with only one inlet and outlet. The stroke of the piston is controlled completely by the pressure at the gas port. This had several advantages and disadvantages.
The primary advantages were that the port could be drilled closer to the chamber, therefore using higher pressure gas and requiring a shorter stroke. This also lightened the gun as the carrier/op rod did not have to go to the front of the barrel. The separate tiny tappet piston could be replaced as needed and the cylinder could be adjusted if needed. The primary DISadvantage of the system was that the piston and cylinder were essentially sealed in the field and could not be easily cleaned. This meant corrosive ammo would rapidly destroy the gun, so ALL .30 Carbine ammo had to be noncorrosive.
Ian does a great job starting at 4:30 explaining the gas expansion and cutoff.
A few years ago the Garand Collectors Association had a really nice write up with lots of photos. They didn’t take it apart, either.
That rifle is a genius of engineering.
Aside: Ian, your in depth report in this production is very much appreciated. I knew you had it in you!
Thank you, thank you, thank you for these videos, I'm an avid fan. I have one minor quibble from my "old soldier"days, the 'c' shaped loop at the muzzle is a Stacking Loop, not a Sling Swivle. It interlocks with the corresponding loops on two other rifles to form a tripod that more weapons can then be stacked against. This feature also was found on the Garand. Again, thank you.
Yes I just woke up and now I got an Ian video! off to a good start this morning.
I always find it interesting how despite the impression that firearm development is the result of a very few inspired individuals, it is in reality a very long and laborious conversation between many people, each borrowing from the last and working out the details as they go.
The lock up action is exquisite, really like how the lug drops into place, wonderful action.
I am guessing there are very few of these military type tested prototypes still around so you can forgive the poor barrel.
That thing is beautiful.
This would be cool for someone to remake with modern materials. I don't care much for synthetic stocks but it wouldn't be bad on this rifle. I am surprised they didn't complain about the bottom vent. I would think mud and salt water would get in and mess up the piston.
United Shoe Machinery Corporation (USMC), also known as "the Shoe", was based in Beverly, Massachusetts, near where I live. The company is gone now but they produced machines for making shoes. They were in business until the mid-1970s.
It looks like he installed an Enfield bayonet lug sideways and used the barrel for the front lug. The recoil or bayonet testing might have bent the front and the bayonet might have been modified for the British.
Thanks. Great history on the development of US caliber .276 rifles.
Very cool to see this, I am glad you got to make a video about this rifle. I would love to see a video comparison of 30-06, 5.56, 7.62 nato, and .276 in a shooting match or simple target shooting to show the differences.
Great video Ian. Do you plan on doing ammunition specific videos at some point? It might be interesting to hear about the .276 or similar rounds that were developed in different places at various times: rationale behind them, pros/cons, their eventual fate etc.
Anyway, keep up the good work Sir.
Excellent review of a one of a kind trials rifle. It does have an interesting design, although with the parts being irreplaceable, it was an intelligent decision not to tinker with it too much.
Beautifully engineered and manufactured action. Looking at the horizontally moving part in the breech it's not difficult to see why this rifle never made it as a military tool. Just a tiny bit of sand or dirt under that part and into those tight fitting rails in the action and you need a toothbrush to get the rifle fire again.
I love your videos man, keep up the work!
I would suspect that due to the gas system, this rifle would have been better suited to the change from .276 Pedersen to 30.06, than the Pedersen rifle was. Bit of a shame he wasn't that far ahead in making his gun squady-proof.
your videos are awesome, thank you.
omg this is one of the most amazing en bloc clip rifles I've ever seen
very ice looking rifle! thanx ian!!
Clarification; White was backed by the United Show MACHINE Corporation of Beverly Massachusetts (local colloquial, "The Shoe") The Shoe was known for it's exceptionally high machining standards. As the name implies it concentrated on shoe production machinery (it never actually produced shoes), it was involved in many other precision machine products.
Ian, great job showing us another rifle that none of us would have ever gotten a chance to see otherwise. I believe you are the only guy that has you tube gun videos that I could just listen to talking about guns and not firing them. Do you have a degree in engineering because I am amazed at how fluidly you describe some of these mechanisms.
That's pretty badass, though I could see many problems with that rising locking lug arrangement in the mud of Guadacanal. It doesn't look very tolerant of anything getting in there. Had it been adopted, I imagine the holes on the bottom of the stock would have been removed to reduce dirt getting in there. I like the compact layout. One of those might-have-beens in history.
This patent may also apply to this rifle: 1,907,164 date 2 May 1933
Very cool locking mechanism
This guy has such incredible knowledge.
Very Pederson looking rifle overall, I like it! It looks like with a little redesigning, White could have put that charging handle forward a ways, like the M1, so it wouldn't protrude off the side of the receiver and be a risk of damage, or a bad case of "bolt bite" if the soldier got a little careless. I like the aperture sight, well made and simple!
For a better understanding of how the rifle is put together and function chack out the patent. And that paten is 1,907,163 dated 2 May 1931.
Great Video
That is a cool looking rifle!
I wonder if Fireplace Collector picked these one of a kinds up. Seems right up his alley.
Fantastic video! very intriguing mechanics, especially the gas-port cut-off like in the later piston rifles.
The problem with the out-sticking charging handle couldve been solved very easily, just elongate it and relocate the handle a bit to the front.
Fascinating rifle, i'd LOVE to shoot it *dreams*
Thanks Ian, again, for that presentation, six of five stars!
very good looking gun!
mmhmmm.. the way that locking lug smoothly rises when you pull back the handle at 10:13.. Hand over your man-card if you don't find that mildly satisfying.
Pregnant looking shape haha
what do you even..??
( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
There's just something about machined parts perfectly and smoothly interacting with eachother.
that's a mean looking rifle mmmmmmm
+Peter Timowreef alright
Chris Hutchins
*click-clack*
(forgive me for my lack of knowledge on the names of the parts)
I feel like if the handle of the mechanism was placed more in the direction of the opposite end of the gun, while shortening the part that sticks out, while it is fully cocked out to allow the clip to enter, would have solved the issue.
It does seem like a serious yet easily correctable problem.
Tolerances look so tight I would almost wonder if dirt would have been a problem ?
Beautiful
I wonder if the charging handle was moved/improved if it could have been a viable military rifle. The short bolt travel length is a good feature and it probably could be adapted to .30-06
looks like a fn49 and an m14 had a baby
Very interesting episode
Do a review about the Mondragon rifle, I think it was made in Mexico, an they still use it for really important festivals, and it was used by the Germans in WW1.
+CoffinMuffin I have a couple coming up on the Mondragons...
Forgotten Weapons Nice!
I'd turn that into a Star Wars blaster rifle! It's pretty cool looking! It cuts a clean profile!
LOL Ian that makes sense with the accuracy those last few inches of the barrel are important as I think.
I wonder if you moved the charging handle forward on that slide could you then reduce the size of charging slide so it would not stick out the back?
The other problem with the charging handle is that it appears to be reciprocating, and as a shooter, I very sincerely would not want to have that slamming back at my face at any sort of speed. It'd probably scare the pants off me.
+Larry Fontenot No, the handle doesn't reciprocate.
+Forgotten Weapons Since this rifle has a threaded muzzle if you could machine a proper adaptor would it be possible to suppress the White Rifle
Don't get me wrong, I love modern rifles, but there is just something sexy about the wood and steel battle rifles of yesteryear!
hey, Ian.
love the videos.
are you a firearms historian or a gunsmith? you know your stuff. just wondering
I could see that bolt sticking out when locked being a serious problem for left handers.
Not a single view of the bolt face. Nor an explanation or guess as to the purpose of the T shaped spring on top of the receiver, or the checkered button under the rear sight adjustment lever. A very interesting rifle, but a missed opportunity for more detailed investigation.
What a sad world we live in, that we don't get to see that action in slow-motion. I have never seen such a complex locking mechanism function so smoothly.
"White rifle"
Now that's opressive!!!
+eduardovjk More powerful than the "black's" .22 LR... Or so they want you to believe.
+eduardovjk My rifle was triggered.
Lol
+Kim Jong-Il you need a healing safe space
turbostewi
That's the kind of talk that fuels the propaganda of the White Operator Patriarchy.
If you're for equality you're part of the problem.
9:26 It appears someone was inspired by the Khyber Pass gunsmiths' fondness for decorative 3s. Or maybe this is in fact a cunning Khyber Pass copy of the White prototype.
(No, of course I'm not serious. :)
Alternately, perhaps this is a really huge auction and the rifle is simply item #3,333,333. :)
Hey Ian, love your videos. Couple of quick questions. 1, do you prefer people watch the videos here or on full30? Does one get you more ad revenue? and 2, might be more of a patreon question, but as another guy with long hair, I wonder what hair care products you use.
most interesting locking mechanism
You might mean United Shoe Machinery Company, not United Shoe Company. They were known to have produced replacement parts for M1917s, specifically bolts, which were stamped USMC leading to the mistaken belief that those rifles had been used by the Marines.
I think you should write a book at this rate Ian.
nice rifle
I heard this rifle was used in the The British Army For The Malayan War And The The Broneo Campaign 1965 And The White 276 rifle.
Just your typical gas-operated lifting-block .276 rifle, nbd.
Could you guys do a video on what is the trial protocol for military small arms?
here's a question: how does one 's firing hand (right hand for most of us, unlike Ian)not get whacked on the top knuckle by the operating slide when it cycled back while ejecting the spent casing? Or did that not reciprocate with the bolt?
More complicated than an M1 Garand w/c can be disassembled in less than 10 secs.
does it ping like a garand tho
seeing as this used the .276 Pedersen round did it also require that the rounds be lubricated/waxed like on the Pedersen rifle?
I would love to buy a modern day reproduction of a rifle that shoots the .276 ammo.
Question for you. Have you even done a video on a gun that you wanted to buy right then and there at RIA?
Nice
Great video, though, it would've been nice to see the bore.
The wood furniture gives it the look of a gorilla gun from those old Planet of the Apes movies of the 1960s & '70s.
www.imfdb.org/wiki/Beneath_the_Planet_of_the_Apes
Forget the shoes....we're going to make guns! 🤣
i would like to have functional replicas this rifle and the Patterson rifle
What a awesome gun, while it might not be as rugged as a M1, it looks cool as shit!!!
front swivel is a stacking swivel not a sling swivel.
What's wrong with simple AK style ventilation holes in the cylinder, instead of complicated gas blocks?
Love it's looks, but then I generally like short rifles / carbines.
i bet if he just moved the reciever further from the butt of the gun it would have fixed half the problems here
Compared to the rest of the world, it's crazy prior to ww2 how many good semi auto rifles the Americans had access to.
That looks pretty heavy, what would you estimate the weight to be on that thing?
Ian, any chance of showing the .577 Rex?
I'm sure this is too late, but looking through the Rock Island Auction catalog I saw two FN 49s, lots #3429 and #3431, and I was wondering if you consider those rifles strange enough to make a video about?
+Riki-Oh I plan to do videos on a couple of FN49 variants, but I have access to them at home where I can shoot them.
+Forgotten Weapons
I look forward to that video. The FN49 id a beautiful rifle
+Matt allen Well maybe it's with Ian now.
+Riki-Oh I have some old American Rifleman magazines from the 60's that advertised FN 49's for like 50 bucks, delivered right to your doorstep. Even then that had to have been a bargain. *sigh* I was born in the wrong decade...
+DoughboyJonesmk2 Yes my uncle moved out of my grandfathers house I found old A.R. magazines with $39.95 luger ads in them.
Wouldn't the venting at the bottom be uncomfortable to shoot and fill with crap
A Berthier and a RSC had a baby.
Was it tested in the US and the UK only? Was any other countries interested in the day?
Interesting that White's gas system influenced the M14.
If you shot that lefty it looks like that charging handle would hit your fingers...
10:19 i was expecting ya to get M1 thumb they're..oh how ironic that would of been
whoever bought it can get in touch with walther lothar they will make any caliber barrel and it will literally be a tack driver after you fit a 12 grove rh twist super accurate german target barrel in it two of my rifles have them and one the barrels worth morebthan the rifle i fitted it for reasons lol
Two front sling swivels? Why?
Lee's box magazine with five-round stripper clips had been around nearly 50 years and had survived the mud of the Western Front, the sand and dust of the Middle East and the humidity of India .
Yet America was insisting on an "en bloc" system and Britain was actively considering it... and I can't really see why. Some of the arguments don't really seem to hold up - for example the "hump" in front of the trigger guard on this White doesn't look any shallower than the SMLE magazine and the Garand has quite a "deep" profile so how would it be any better for prone shooters?
can you maybe if you get the chance make a video about Chinese "Fakes" again? :) I always found those hillarious. Maybe you'll even find a fake rifle sooner or later, that would be pretty cool
I wish I had the money... damn
Ian, what is that falling block with the - 0 marked on it (with a matching 0 - on the bolt)? Looks like it falls right after the locking lug unlocks.
+666Vertigo Couldn't say exactly, without pulling to bolt out.
+666Vertigo I would guess a firing pin block to keep the rifle from firing when it's out of battery. Nice design if it is as it gives a visual indication of the locking status!
+666Vertigo I wish Ian could have taken it apart a little further, but I understand completely why he doesn't. Hell, I'd pay good money for a good set of dimensioned drawings so that I could machine one myself.
+mrchew1982 I'd pay good money for you to make me one. :)
would the 276 round have burnt out the barrel with it high velocity round
Hard to say. It was a smaller bullet than the .30 but flying as fast.. More likely that it had many rounds through it and corrosive primers, or possibly cordite which was known to burn barrels. Today however we have better steel. So its a combination of factors
did White get any credit for his gas system being used on the M14?
No wonder it looks so similar to the m1 socom 16
White Gas Operated Rifle... My first thought was: how did someone make a rifle that runs off of camp stove fuel?!?
Why on earth didn’t he change the barrel?